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How to deal with a hoarding employee (1 Viewer)

It's ADA.   It's the same as any other DSM-5 disability.   The only published workplace case I'm aware of the plaintiff lost, but only because he couldn't meet his burden of proof to establish the nexus between the disability and the requested accommodation (he ran a mailroom and wanted an assistant to help him keep it organized).  There was no question that if he had met his burden of proof he would have been entitled to an accommodation.  


So what would be a reasonable accommodation here? It sounds like OP is more than willing, not to mention the employee has not even claimed to be a hoarder or requested any type of accommodation (and might not even be one -- could just be considered a workplace hoarder by the loose definition of the term without an actual disability -- no way of knowing here but sure, something for OP to be conscious of).  At the same time, the employer has the right to dictate how documents are other company property is stored and enforce some type of clean desk policy at the end of the day.  A reasonable accommodation is not just letting the employee create as big of mess as possible. 

 
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I worked for a company that had one of these "irreplaceable" women once. She was the primary reason they refused to upgrade the company's primary software because they were afraid she would quit if they asked her to learn a new system.  The entire company was held hostage to the idea that this lady would quit if they tried to upgrade.  To the point the software was not even going to be supported by the company that made it anymore.  I left before push came to shove, so not sure how it got resolved.
No offense, but this story sucks. 

 
So I don't mean this to be nasty - It's a genuine suggestion here.  It doesn't sound like what she's doing is impacting anyone specifically.  Give her a defined space and let her use it however she wants.  As long as she's your top sales person and you can't live without her and she's tolerated by others (albeit maybe they think it's strange), I'd just live with it.  

I am known for keeping a messy desk at work (and pranks - pranks too...).  I'm not a hoarder, but I don't have much time to clean stuff up.  I pile things.  i know what is in the piles.  It's my system.  If i file it, I might as well throw it away.  
speaking of pranks...lets get some fired up.  

 
She has accordion files full of paperwork that date back to 2009. I tried to send them to storage and she said the company was sabotaging her. I realize she sounds like a monster but I actually really like her. It’s a tough situation. 
No way you can convince her that once digitized, she'll still have copies, they'll just be on her computer instead of on her desk/chair/floor/etc.?

 
No way you can convince her that once digitized, she'll still have copies, they'll just be on her computer instead of on her desk/chair/floor/etc.?
this sounds like the best answer; digitizing and organizing docs on prem or in the cloud should be done anyway, that's the way things are moving. Online docs that are accessible from anywhere are great for workflow, especially in potential hybrid environments. 

You can also hire companies who'll physically scan/digitize the docs and create a searchable database. 

 
I’d be happy to come on site and cite her for fire code violations. You can pay me in Chick-Fil-A.

Recently I was going through some old boxes in preparation for a move. Would love to put the plastic pocket protector I have from 1981 to use as a convincing Fire Marshall accouterment. 

 
No way you can convince her that once digitized, she'll still have copies, they'll just be on her computer instead of on her desk/chair/floor/etc.?
It's on my list of reasonable steps to present to her (she canceled our schedule meeting to discuss today).  She "doesn't trust" the files will be safe if out of her control. In my opinion it's not about preserving the content of the files. She gets some sort of comfort from the piles.  

 
It's on my list of reasonable steps to present to her (she canceled our schedule meeting to discuss today).  She "doesn't trust" the files will be safe if out of her control. In my opinion it's not about preserving the content of the files. She gets some sort of comfort from the piles.  
You are making fish’s case for him.

 
Honestly, if its my top salesperson, I hardly care. I ran salespeople a long time. you have to clean with her/ like. "hey, lets take a look at your stuff" and do it with her. I wouldnt lose my top person over this
 
It does impact though. She shares space with others, she misplaces product and has hundred of thousands of dollars of ghost projects in the system. Her disorganization has a direct impact on the bottom line and is enough to reduce the bonus pool. If I had a dedicated space I'd let her have it though I fear what what become of it.

The bolded above is the key, and why it NEEDS to be addressed. Figure out a way to put a monetary value to her disorganization (break it down to a monthly amount that she's costing the company) and somehow let her know that, unless this is addressed and resolved within 90 days, that you will have no choice but to reduce her pay that amount.

At this point, right or wrong, you're enabling her. She may be invaluable, but you're also creating an uncomfortable work atmosphere for you and all the other employees. It also looks very unprofessional to customers (if you have them in the office?) and to future candidates who could be valuable to you as well. I know if I came to a place to interview and saw this I'd question some things and likely pass. And god forbid I had to have my desk next to this? I couldn't do it, would drive me insane daily. She's literally SITTING on documents like a booster seat?!? No way in hell.

It's just going to keep getting worse if you don't do something drastic. The reality is people like this are the way they are because they don't like change and likely lazy....the odds that she would leave the company and upset her daily life dynamic is not something that she'd probably enjoy very much. You have to call her bluff at some point.
 
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I did everything suggested here, had a long talk, presented some file soltuions, offered her help and space to file. She agreed and said it had even gotten out of hand for her. Was a good talk. Annnnnd, she hasn't done squat. Hasn't even moved a pencil. We also found missing items from inventory willy nilly under junk on her desk since the talk. Bah.
 
I did everything suggested here, had a long talk, presented some file soltuions, offered her help and space to file. She agreed and said it had even gotten out of hand for her. Was a good talk. Annnnnd, she hasn't done squat. Hasn't even moved a pencil. We also found missing items from inventory willy nilly under junk on her desk since the talk. Bah.

See my post above. Figure out monetarily what she’s costing the company from her ways and penalize. Again, you’re enabling at this point. Need to have consequences for no follow through and basically disrespecting you as her manager.
 
I did everything suggested here, had a long talk, presented some file soltuions, offered her help and space to file. She agreed and said it had even gotten out of hand for her. Was a good talk. Annnnnd, she hasn't done squat. Hasn't even moved a pencil. We also found missing items from inventory willy nilly under junk on her desk since the talk. Bah.

My gut based on your description and having seen similar is that she is either worried about being replaced or she just sees it as unnecessary work and she’s just delaying it because she doesn’t want to do it.
 
I did everything suggested here, had a long talk, presented some file soltuions, offered her help and space to file. She agreed and said it had even gotten out of hand for her. Was a good talk. Annnnnd, she hasn't done squat. Hasn't even moved a pencil. We also found missing items from inventory willy nilly under junk on her desk since the talk. Bah.

My gut based on your description and having seen similar is that she is either worried about being replaced or she just sees it as unnecessary work and she’s just delaying it because she doesn’t want to do it.
Not my take at all. Assuming she truly is a hoarder (and it sure sounds like it), she literally can't get rid of the stuff.

If she refuses treatment, you may just have to fire her. Sorry. (You could also hire a hoarding expert to help her if you really want to go that route.)
 
My gut based on your description and having seen similar is that she is either worried about being replaced or she just sees it as unnecessary work and she’s just delaying it because she doesn’t want to do it.

I mean, of course it's the she just doesn't want to do it. She obviously has a psychological issue and probably for perspective it would be to ask normal people to work without a computer. Her mind literally can't compute being able to function without all of her stuff.....all of her piles are basically files and folders on our computers. Imagine your boss saying you need to put all of your computer contents on a hard drive and lock it away into storage and moving forward you'll need to work with a typewriter and paper/pen. That's how she's likely thinking when she's told to get rid of or put things into storage.

The funny thing about that scenario is that the reduction in work efficiency for normal minds to work from typewriter and paper/pen is probably similar to the amount of money she's costing the company from her inefficiencies (plus it just being a bad look and compromising other employee happiness)

The rub here for @Nick Vermeil is that if he forces her to change she's likely no longer the valuable employee that she's become. She will be so stressed out and flustered constantly that all of her positive traits now will likely disappear. Literally would be like a drug addict going through detox (her drug is her stuff close by).
 
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She's on vacation this week. She previously agreed to letting me scan one of the accordian files of documents from 15 years ago to see how it would work. I've got the intern working on that while shes away! So we'll make another go of it next week.
 
She's on vacation this week. She previously agreed to letting me scan one of the accordian files of documents from 15 years ago to see how it would work. I've got the intern working on that while shes away! So we'll make another go of it next week.
My wife met a woman years ago and they become good friends. The new friend is a cancer survivor, my wife’s mom died of cancer so they both get a tight bond right away.

She eventually invites my wife to her house. They are sitting in the driveway and the friend tells my wife, “it’s bad”. My wife is confused. Friend, “I’m a hoarder”. My wife tells her that they don’t have to go in but they eventually do. The place is TV worthy with two big dogs. There are two spots to sit down, a kitchen chair and a corner of the couch. Junk and trash bags everywhere, every room is packed including the basement.

After a couple of years my wife asks her if she can help. The friend agrees. Wife gets three friends from church and they are going to tackle the kitchen first. Barely make a dent after six hours and the friend shuts them down. Is hurt and offended by what they threw away (all junk and trash).

She stayed friends with my wife, even making her the beneficiary on her small life insurance policy. I’ve been over multiple times to fix little things, replace a dryer (she wouldn’t let me remove the old one). That was brutal - could not maneuver anywhere.

To look at her outside of her home, you never would guess she has this problem. She doesn’t smell. Dresses fine. Hair done.

I don’t get it but it’s a legit illness.
 
I don’t get it but it’s a legit illness.
It is definitely a mental health condition. My dad is a hoarder. My mom is an organized and clean person, and has managed to have him keep his clutter in his home office, an outdoor shed, their garage, and a storage unit. In his office you can get to his chair, desk, and printer, but there are paths that lead to them. He has office items stacked on shelves, tables, and the floor. He needs psychotherapy, but he will never get that type of help. At times my mom has made him go through his papers and discard the ones he doesn't need, which is most, and he gathers up a small group, and keeps the majority. She also has us children come over on occasions and throw some of his stuff out when he isn't there. He has so much junk, he doesn't remember all that he has gathered through the years. If he does find something has been removed or moved, it causes him distress. He has weird emotional attachments to objects, especially his work papers. He has IBM papers, manuals, etc. that date back to the 70s. It is like he has made them a part of his identity. If they are removed, he feels like he has lost a part of himself. It is bizarre, but it is very real in his mind.

Hoarding can be an OCD subtype. He will buy tons of an item if they are on sale, for example band-aids, and then he hangs them up in a bag in their garage. There are tons of items hanging in there unused, but they were a deal! Also if something like a beach chair breaks, he will not throw it out. He says he may be able to fix it later, but he never even tries. He just can't let go of it. It got to the point where one of us kids would have to take a broken chair while at the beach, and dump it in an unclosed dumpster location so he wouldn't dumpster dive for it. I organized the inside of their garage, which means I found new places for the junk, about three years ago so you could walk around inside and go from one side to the other, and it made him very disgruntled. I don't get along with him, and I knew I would catch his wrath, but I did it for my mom, and I didn't care how he reacted. I threw out a ton of his papers too, but he didn't notice, because there are so many. I did all of this when they were out of town. He was not happy about what I did, but eventually he got over the fact things were put into places that made it an actual functioning garage. He even likes having the space. My mom has made sure that it has been kept functional inside.

He knows that it is abnormal behavior, but as I said before, he won't get help for it. It does seem he feels shame when confronted about hoarding, but he mainly gets defensive, and makes a million excuses for why the junk should remain. My mother continues to keep it isolated to specific locations.

In his older age, he has mellowed on some things being discarded, but you can see in his face that it pains him. You mainly need to trash something when he isn't around, because he has some dementia now, so many times he doesn't remember so and so was even there.

I think with Nick's worker, moving some of the stuff to another location out of the way is possible. She will be upset at first, but the fact the junk still exist nearby may eventually relax her, and if not it can be moved back. I think she will eventually find that she likes the space, but she didn't have the mental power to free herself from what she feels is part of her (all her years of work collected in piles). If she does relax about it, then some of the stuff that is on the bottom of her junk piles can slowly be discarded, because she probably doesn't even remember what is all at the bottom of the pile(s).
 
She's on vacation this week. She previously agreed to letting me scan one of the accordian files of documents from 15 years ago to see how it would work. I've got the intern working on that while shes away! So we'll make another go of it next week.
Scan it all while she's away. If she doesn't really like it, oh well. I can't recall ever having a boss that gave a rat's rear if he made a decision that I didn't care for. That's the nature of a boss/worker relationship.
 
How about the angle of "you're affecting others?" If others are uncomfortable/threatening to leave due to the conditions she's creating, maybe that will sink in. Are they workers that help her? Or is everyone in their own silo of work, so to speak?
 
How about the angle of "you're affecting others?" If others are uncomfortable/threatening to leave due to the conditions she's creating, maybe that will sink in. Are they workers that help her? Or is everyone in their own silo of work, so to speak?
Yeah, that's what I suggested earlier. nirad specifically said her way of working is costing others their bonus money, that's not OK. Figure out monetarily what she's costing the company on a monthly basis and make her aware it's not acceptable.

I even suggested penalizing her the amount she's losing the company if not resolved in 90 days and they will re-evaluate every 2 weeks after. Have a standing meeting with her to look over her space and let her know what's not acceptable but also praise and reward progress. Allow her to make her penalty back (+ bonus?) over the next year. Give her some incentive both negatively and positively. She's gotten used to nirad just sweeping it under the rug so he's enabling at this point.
 
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I did everything suggested here, had a long talk, presented some file soltuions, offered her help and space to file. She agreed and said it had even gotten out of hand for her. Was a good talk. Annnnnd, she hasn't done squat. Hasn't even moved a pencil. We also found missing items from inventory willy nilly under junk on her desk since the talk. Bah.

Fire her for theft.
 
I don’t want to fire her. That would be easy. But 6.2 million in sales last year. It’s a problem.
The sales group needs an administrative assistant. Specifically one to clean up the digital books to ensure the ghost sales are clean up.
 

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