HS girls stage a walkout as trans teen uses girls bathroom (2 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

 

[Henry Ford]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.

Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?

You're insane. Good fisherman though.

Shall I take that as an "I know it when I see it" definition?

 

[Henry Ford]

Fantasycurse - I'd love it if you'd change the title to reflect the poll. I'd be really interested to come back and view these poll results in ten years, like that old "gay marriage" thread from several years ago that was bumped last/this year.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

 

[Henry Ford]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Well, as long as I have your guarantee based on your extensive knowledge of transgender issues, I guess I should change my opinion.

 

[Black Box]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

Right, and you know what else is a big ####ing deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Etc. etc. We are weighing the feelings of teenage girls here and trying to come up with a solution.

I am curious, what right do the teenage girls have to a segregated changing area in the first place? How is that established in case law?

 

[Henry Ford]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

The conservative right-wing base: "We won't even discuss the Equal Rights Amendment, but seriously, we totally care about women if someone with a penis wants to wear a dress. It's not because we just find it icky, I swear."

 

[jonessed]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.

Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Well, as long as I have your guarantee based on your extensive knowledge of transgender issues, I guess I should change my opinion.

You should change your opinion based on common sense. These are minor children we are talking about. They don't have a choice. The school administrators make their choice for them.

 

[Fennis]

Fantasycurse - I'd love it if you'd change the title to reflect the poll. I'd be really interested to come back and view these poll results in ten years, like that old "gay marriage" thread from several years ago that was bumped last/this year.

I think the big difference was as being gay became more accepted, it turned out kids of religious people and politicians and neighbors were gay and families who used to shun those kids now became more and more accepting.

However, transgender people will continue to be rare, and I'm guessing most people in this thread have not met a transperson, let alone know one in their family. They wont become accepting through familiarity like happened with gay people.

 

[RBM]

10 pages and almost 90 Henry Ford posts....

 

[Henry Ford]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

Right, and you know what else is a big ####ing deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Etc. etc. We are weighing the feelings of teenage girls here and trying to come up with a solution.

I am curious, what right do the teenage girls have to a segregated changing area in the first place? How is that established in case law?

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

 

[Henry Ford]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Well, as long as I have your guarantee based on your extensive knowledge of transgender issues, I guess I should change my opinion.

You should change your opinion based on common sense. These are minor children we are talking about. They don't have a choice. The school administrators make their choice for them.

They could go use that private bathroom, I guess.

 

[pantagrapher]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

 

[Henry Ford]

Fantasycurse - I'd love it if you'd change the title to reflect the poll. I'd be really interested to come back and view these poll results in ten years, like that old "gay marriage" thread from several years ago that was bumped last/this year.

I think the big difference was as being gay became more accepted, it turned out kids of religious people and politicians and neighbors were gay and families who used to shun those kids now became more and more accepting.

However, transgender people will continue to be rare, and I'm guessing most people in this thread have not met a transperson, let alone know one in their family. They wont become accepting through familiarity like happened with gay people.

Hoo, boy. I have news for you. Last estimate, based on decade-old sparse data, was about 700,000 transgender Americans. And yeah, pretty good chance almost everyone in this thread has met a transperson or a close friend/relative of a transperson.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Well, as long as I have your guarantee based on your extensive knowledge of transgender issues, I guess I should change my opinion.

You should change your opinion based on common sense. These are minor children we are talking about. They don't have a choice. The school administrators make their choice for them.

They could go use that private bathroom, I guess.

No they can't. They are told what bathrooms they can use. The decisions are made by the adults.

 

[Hang 10]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.

Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?

Right what makes a boy is a declarative statement.

 

[Henry Ford]

10 pages and almost 90 Henry Ford posts....

I get very angry about people's attitudes with respect to this issue. It takes a lot of posts to make my very angry point in a mostly rational way instead of just shouting about what a gaggle of frightened, bigoted teenage mean girls people on this board come across as sometimes.

 

[Fennis]

Fantasycurse - I'd love it if you'd change the title to reflect the poll. I'd be really interested to come back and view these poll results in ten years, like that old "gay marriage" thread from several years ago that was bumped last/this year.

I think the big difference was as being gay became more accepted, it turned out kids of religious people and politicians and neighbors were gay and families who used to shun those kids now became more and more accepting.

However, transgender people will continue to be rare, and I'm guessing most people in this thread have not met a transperson, let alone know one in their family. They wont become accepting through familiarity like happened with gay people.

Hoo, boy. I have news for you. Last estimate, based on decade-old sparse data, was about 700,000 transgender Americans. And yeah, pretty good chance almost everyone in this thread has met a transperson or a close friend/relative of a transperson.

Maybe needs a poll, but i'm willing to bet outside of big cities, I bet a large majority have not even met someone, let alone know a transperson.

 

[pantagrapher]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

 

[Henry Ford]

I like this whole "transgender accommodation will leave the door open to perverts and sex criminals exploiting women!' angle.

If you're a sleazy heterosexual man who is willing to do awful things in order to view naked women against their will, you don't need to pretend to be transgender to do it. If you're desperate and pathetic enough to lie about your identity to see boobs, I'm betting you're also desperate and pathetic enough to install a hidden camera or watch one that someone else has installed on the internet.

Protecting women from sex criminals who fraudulently declare themselves to be transgender is pretty much at the bottom of the list of sex criminal behaviors we should be concerned about.

No but apparently if you do declare that you are transgender (and my understanding that is all that is required, a declaration) you can legally be a pervert.

Go give it a shot. See how it works out.

I guarantee there will be people/kids who do and at that point the school board is going to pay through the nose. IMO opinion this is a stupid ####### law that is going to end up backfiring in a big way and then this stupid ####### law will be changed. Unfortunately somebody's daughter is going to have to suffer prior to this stupid ####### law getting changed.

Well, as long as I have your guarantee based on your extensive knowledge of transgender issues, I guess I should change my opinion.

You should change your opinion based on common sense. These are minor children we are talking about. They don't have a choice. The school administrators make their choice for them.

They could go use that private bathroom, I guess.

No they can't. They are told what bathrooms they can use. The decisions are made by the adults.

Thank goodness. If it were made by 150 teenage girls, they'd be the center of a lawsuit.

 

[Henry Ford]

Fantasycurse - I'd love it if you'd change the title to reflect the poll. I'd be really interested to come back and view these poll results in ten years, like that old "gay marriage" thread from several years ago that was bumped last/this year.

I think the big difference was as being gay became more accepted, it turned out kids of religious people and politicians and neighbors were gay and families who used to shun those kids now became more and more accepting.

However, transgender people will continue to be rare, and I'm guessing most people in this thread have not met a transperson, let alone know one in their family. They wont become accepting through familiarity like happened with gay people.

Hoo, boy. I have news for you. Last estimate, based on decade-old sparse data, was about 700,000 transgender Americans. And yeah, pretty good chance almost everyone in this thread has met a transperson or a close friend/relative of a transperson.

Maybe needs a poll, but i'm willing to bet outside of big cities, I bet a large majority have not even met someone, let alone know a transperson.

I would say that the majority of people aren't aware of how many transpeople they have met.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

It's not bigotry to tell a boy to get back in the boys locker room. Holy ####.

Well, we've worked through a lot of things in this thread. We know that having a penis isn't what makes you a boy (hermaphrodites, birth defects, etc), having XY chromosomes isn't what makes you a boy (SRYers), having desire to have sex with women isn't what makes you a boy (lesbians), the ability to impregnate a woman isn't what makes you a boy (sterility)... what is it that makes someone a boy in your mind?

Right what makes a boy is a declarative statement.

Yep. Now you don't have to be a conscientious objector to get out of combat. Just simply state you feel like a girl today.

 

[Black Box]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

Right, and you know what else is a big ####ing deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Etc. etc. We are weighing the feelings of teenage girls here and trying to come up with a solution.

I am curious, what right do the teenage girls have to a segregated changing area in the first place? How is that established in case law?

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

1) In this specific case, it "sounds kind of reasonable" to allow Perry to use a private changing area, at least to me and to other school officials. I assume that, for you and others, this is not acceptable because it violates the discrimination aspect of the law, correct?

2) I am assuming that a woman is not allowed into a men's locker room, legally speaking. How does that not violate federal anti-discrimination laws against women?

 

[pantagrapher]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

I already said it's not a sex or comfort thing.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

I already said it's not a sex or comfort thing.

So what is it?

 

[Henry Ford]

It's also a big ####ing deal to the teenager who's trying to use the locker room before gym class and identifies as a girl. Interestingly, she does have a right to be protected from bigotry and discrimination. That's why I lean toward the transgender teen in this story.

Right, and you know what else is a big ####ing deal to teenage girls? Zits. Not being asked to the prom. Etc. etc. We are weighing the feelings of teenage girls here and trying to come up with a solution.

I am curious, what right do the teenage girls have to a segregated changing area in the first place? How is that established in case law?

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

1) In this specific case, it "sounds kind of reasonable" to allow Perry to use a private changing area, at least to me and to other school officials. I assume that, for you and others, this is not acceptable because it violates the discrimination aspect of the law, correct?

2) I am assuming that a woman is not allowed into a men's locker room, legally speaking. How does that not violate federal anti-discrimination laws against women?

1) It sounds kind of reasonable to me, too. I've said that repeatedly. It isn't acceptable to the kid, though, because she feels segregated. That's what makes all this a tough call. My mind wasn't made up when I came into this thread, and no one on the other side is giving me a compelling argument.

2) Rational basis for separation by the school. That's the thing that makes discussion of these rights complicated - it isn't litigated in terms of "right to privacy of the men in the locker room" it's litigated in terms of "right of the school to protect itself from lawsuits related to the right of privacy."

 

[Henry Ford]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

Not Butkus's house, I'll tell you that much.

 

[pantagrapher]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

I already said it's not a sex or comfort thing.

So what is it?

We separate locker rooms and bathrooms for a variety of reasons that don't have to make complete sense. Just take your penis into the boy's locker room and don't make a big deal about it. Locker rooms are uncomfortable for a lot of people.

 

[jonessed]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).

Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

I already said it's not a sex or comfort thing.

So what is it?

We separate locker rooms and bathrooms for a variety of reasons that don't have to make complete sense. Just take your penis into the boy's locker room and don't make a big deal about it. Locker rooms are uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Here's the thing - they don't have to make complete sense unless someone's being discriminated against. Then they have to pass the rational basis test.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Just because a male is sterile doesn't make him not a male. Everyone is born with a reproductive function and will remain that way unless they have a sex change (which obviously involves a lot more than just cutting of some guy's penis).

Hermaphrodites are the exception, but the doctors/parents normally choose a sex based on the dominant function and go through therapy/surgery. True hermaphrodites are extremely rare, but in those cases I imagine the individual would choose.

I don't see how hermaphrodites have anything to do with some guy wanting to use the girls HS locker. Is he a hermaphrodite?

Nope. SRYers (women with XY chromosomes) are generally born and develop without functioning reproductive systems. Lots of people are born sterile. Next.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

Getting a little thin skinned Counsellor?

 

[pantagrapher]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

I already said it's not a sex or comfort thing.

So what is it?

We separate locker rooms and bathrooms for a variety of reasons that don't have to make complete sense. Just take your penis into the boy's locker room and don't make a big deal about it. Locker rooms are uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Here's the thing - they don't have to make complete sense unless someone's being discriminated against. Then they have to pass the rational basis test.

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't think it's a sex thing. Or a comfort thing. But if you're going to have separate locker rooms and bathrooms, genitalia is the obvious distinction to make. Boys/Girls is basically just shorthand for that distinction.

Where do the hermaphrodites go? Or a kid who lost his penis in a biking accident?

Hermaphrodites typically have a dominant one, don't they? I honestly don't know. But fine, let the hermaphrodites choose! The kid who lost his penis can continue to use the boys locker room. Not about to turn society upside down for rare birth defects and the boy with no penis.

Wait, what if the hermaphrodite's penis gets seen by a girl? Won't that destroy her life? Why can't you think of Butkus's children, for God's sake, you monster!

Getting a little thin skinned Counsellor?

I'd say making jokes is the opposite of getting thin skinned. But I'm no authority on skin.

 

[Hang 10]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

It's not unusual for locker room shower facilities in high schools to have little privacy. I remember road football games where the shower heads weren't seperated by anything.

 

[Henry Ford]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Where is it that teenage friends of different sexes will take nude saunas together? Finland? I don't want to google search this.

Not Butkus's house, I'll tell you that much.

You are correct. I sent my kids to public school not a nudist colony.

 

[pantagrapher]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

 

[Black Box]

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

1) In this specific case, it "sounds kind of reasonable" to allow Perry to use a private changing area, at least to me and to other school officials. I assume that, for you and others, this is not acceptable because it violates the discrimination aspect of the law, correct?

2) I am assuming that a woman is not allowed into a men's locker room, legally speaking. How does that not violate federal anti-discrimination laws against women?

1) It sounds kind of reasonable to me, too. I've said that repeatedly. It isn't acceptable to the kid, though, because she feels segregated. That's what makes all this a tough call. My mind wasn't made up when I came into this thread, and no one on the other side is giving me a compelling argument.2) Rational basis for separation by the school. That's the thing that makes discussion of these rights complicated - it isn't litigated in terms of "right to privacy of the men in the locker room" it's litigated in terms of "right of the school to protect itself from lawsuits related to the right of privacy."

Ok, I think I am starting to see where you are coming from.

So the school has to decide which course of action results in it protecting itself best from lawsuits related to the right of privacy, without exposing itself to potential discrimination lawsuits?

 

[Henry Ford]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

Then call it the penis restroom, not the boys' restroom.

 

[Henry Ford]

Here's the closest I can get to explaining that based on the case law - which is really the case law of transgender bathroom/locker room denials by the schools, prior to the U.S. Department of Education shifting its position and the new attempts to include transgender people as a protected class:

People have a privacy right while using the restroom. The extent of that right, the reasons behind it, who's responsible for protecting it, all of that is in a constant state of "well, this sounds kind of reasonable" flux with the courts. Schools and businesses need to protect that mostly undefined privacy right. As such, they are allowed to use rational basis reasons for limiting who gets to use what restrooms, and how they're constructed, and that kind of thing. But, of course, they aren't allowed to violate federal or state anti-discrimination laws.

1) In this specific case, it "sounds kind of reasonable" to allow Perry to use a private changing area, at least to me and to other school officials. I assume that, for you and others, this is not acceptable because it violates the discrimination aspect of the law, correct?

2) I am assuming that a woman is not allowed into a men's locker room, legally speaking. How does that not violate federal anti-discrimination laws against women?

1) It sounds kind of reasonable to me, too. I've said that repeatedly. It isn't acceptable to the kid, though, because she feels segregated. That's what makes all this a tough call. My mind wasn't made up when I came into this thread, and no one on the other side is giving me a compelling argument.2) Rational basis for separation by the school. That's the thing that makes discussion of these rights complicated - it isn't litigated in terms of "right to privacy of the men in the locker room" it's litigated in terms of "right of the school to protect itself from lawsuits related to the right of privacy."

Ok, I think I am starting to see where you are coming from.

So the school has to decide which course of action results in it protecting itself best from lawsuits related to the right of privacy, without exposing itself to potential discrimination lawsuits?

Right. And that's the complicated issue I have been talking about for several pages that I find fascinating.

 

[pantagrapher]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

Then call it the penis restroom, not the boys' restroom.

This would require billions of dollars in new signage nationwide.

 

[D-Day]

Back in the day (mid 80's), I was at a party with some friends, and there was an attractive woman there, but something was just "off". Apparently I looked too long, she comes up to me and asks if there is a problem.

Me: "Sorry, but I think you are a guy." At this time, all my friends get on my case.

Her: "Who told you?"

Me after some conversation: "You know what sucks? You're the best looking girl here." And we have been together ever since.

Kidding. Although we did talk (just talk) for some time at the party and didn't seem to hold it against me of being an a - hole.

 

[Henry Ford]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

Then call it the penis restroom, not the boys' restroom.

This would require billions of dollars in new signage nationwide.

No, just a white marker. The "boy" sign already almost looks like a penis. I bet some creative students could make the women's signs look like ######s. We could make a stencil.

 

[Henry Ford]

Back in the day (mid 80's), I was at a party with some friends, and there was an attractive woman there, but something was just "off". Apparently I looked too long, she comes up to me and asks if there is a problem.

Me: "Sorry, but I think you are a guy." At this time, all my friends get on my case.

Her: "Who told you?"

Me after some conversation: "You know what sucks? You're the best looking girl here." And we have been together ever since.

Kidding. Although we did talk (just talk) for some time at the party and didn't seem to hold it against me of being an a - hole.

I'd imagine she's met more than one. You were probably a nicer ##### than most.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

She won't face discrimination in the girls locker room?

She won't face the discrimination of being told she's not a girl and that she needs to go be a boy during gym class by a state-funded educational institution.

Like I said, the boys/girls distinction is genitalia. She's not being told she's not a girl. She's being told she has a penis.

What I have learned from the transgender supporters is, it doesn't matter what you physically are, only what you feel you are.