cmv5
Footballguy
Yeah, I would like to see the scoring in this league. That should not be a normal experience in a 12 team league.
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I wouldn't draft Larry Fitzgerald in the 1st...2nd...3rd...4th (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
Tau837
Footballguy
I don't know. I didn't include that in my breakdown, and I don't have the time right now to look into that. In general, others have shown that Fitz had better numbers when Boldin missed time than when they both played, but I don't know that anyone cross indexed that against the QBs.
Instinctive
Footballguy
1/10 rush 1/15 rec
6 points all TDs
0.5 per rec
0.5 per comp
-0.25 per inc
A 1 TD bonus at 100 or 300 yards respectively
So before Roddy got to me, I want to say 7 QBs, Fitz, Calvin, Austin, Wayne, Moss, AJ and 15 RBs had gone. I took the first 2 wideouts of the draft. We start 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 flex W/R, 1 QB, 1 TE. All of which is fairly standard, and it's been a really competitive league for over a decade now.
Back on topic, I definitely would prefer Stafford to Leinart. I think Stafford looked great, and if you prorate the Stafford and Calvin games, you get like 1400 yards and double digit TDs, iirc. Much better than what I would expect from Fitz this season.
Reggie Wayne had a knee injury last year that was mainly kept quiet but probably held him back more than a little bit. Wouldn't surprise me to see him get worse or bounce back. I don't want him either, just like Fitz.
kutta
Footballguy
I am not using an example that is wrong. I just explained one reason why Fitz may have had better numbers without Boldin. And of course there are good receivers with bad QB's. But I can show you a lot more good receivers with good QB's. Here's an example. Here are the top 10 QB's in passer rating from last year:Brees
Favre
Rivers
Rogers
Roethlisberger
P. Manning
Schaub
Romo
Brady
Warner
Here are the next 10
E. Manning
McNabb
Flacco
Orton
Campbell
Palmer
Garrard
Young
A. Smith
Ryan
And the next 10
Cutler
Henne
Hasselbeck
Bulger
Cassel
Fitzpatrick
Quinn
Sanchez
Stafford
Freeman
Let me ask you. Which group do you want your 1st round WR's to come from?
ETA: Last year, Mark Bulger was 24th in the league with a QB rating of 70.7. Leinart's career passing rating is 70.8, and last year his passer rating was 64.6 which would have put him just ahead of Mark Sanchez and in 28th place.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Leinart had an 88.1 passer rating in his only start last year.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Continuing the unfairness of looking at Leinart's "career passer rating", most of Leinart's starts were his rookie year. Here are his passer ratings in those games:
91.7
88.6
36.3 in his first ever road start, against the #1 pass defense in the league
51.7
47.7
101.7
76.0
100.3
89.3
51.4
137.3
Here are Manning's rookie starts:
58.6
51.1
39.3
63.2
66.8
62.6
117.5
69.2
47.7
81.3
48.6
105.0
79.1
128.7
84.9
56.6
Leinart's passer rating as a rookie: 74.0
Manning's passer rating as a rookie: 71.2
Leinart's passer rating in games he started four years later: 88.1
Manning's passer rating in games he started four years later: 84.1
91.7
88.6
36.3 in his first ever road start, against the #1 pass defense in the league
51.7
47.7
101.7
76.0
100.3
89.3
51.4
137.3
Here are Manning's rookie starts:
58.6
51.1
39.3
63.2
66.8
62.6
117.5
69.2
47.7
81.3
48.6
105.0
79.1
128.7
84.9
56.6
Leinart's passer rating as a rookie: 74.0
Manning's passer rating as a rookie: 71.2
Leinart's passer rating in games he started four years later: 88.1
Manning's passer rating in games he started four years later: 84.1
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
hes going to get a 1000 targets... I'm in
Tau837
Footballguy
Holy cherry picking Batman.1. You are comparing Leinart's single start last season to Manning's 16 starts in his 4th season. Do you believe that is a valid comparison?2. Why do you believe it is valid to ignore Leinart's starts between his 1st and 4th seasons? Is it because his QB rating in those 5 starts was a mere 61.9, and thus does not support your stance? Would you care to compare the QB ratings for Leinart (61.9) and Manning (90.7) in their second season starts? Didn't think so.3. Leinart had 77 attempts last season, but just 31 of them were in that one start. And despite the fact that he had a 88.1 QB rating in the start, his QB rating for the entire season was a miserable 64.6. In particular, he had 21 attempts in week 17 and had a miserable game, as shown by his 33.1 QB rating in that game... Warner came out after the first quarter, and Leinart was promptly intercepted on his first three drives of the game, leading directly to 10 points for the Packers. Leinart was bad enough that it turned into a blowout and he was pulled in the middle of the 4th quarter. You really think his one start is more indicative of his play last season than his entire body of work?
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Yeah, I think you missed my point entirely. I am not "cherry picking" say that Leinart is better than Manning. I'm rebutting the use of his "career passer rating" as a tool to describe his ability. Leinart's rookie season wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. His numbers in games where he was actually able to prepare as a starter aren't bad, either. I don't think you can exrtapolate much from the games where they threw him in in garbage time. He completed 6 of 7 for 49 yards this week, and people are saying it was a bad performance. He's held to an impossibly high standard by people who want to fit his performance to their preferred narrative. But he actually looks decent this offseason. There was one very valid criticism of him in this thread - he doesn't lead his receivers enough. I agree with that. Most of the rest of the stuff about Leinart has been "he sucks" backed up by meaningless stats from games where he didn't start, punctuated by Fitzgerald's numbers when Leinart was playing but Boldin was there. Warner "only" had 3753 yards and 26 TDs last year on 339 completions. Fitz caught 97 of those balls for 1092 yards and 13 - fully half - of those touchdowns. We might expect a dropoff from Warner to Leinart, sure, but with Boldin gone, we can expect Fitz to get at least as big a share of the team's offense. It's hard to picture him falling off the map as much as people seem to be saying.
SYMPHONY X
Footballguy
What's the name of that movie where a person escapes sure death, but then death continues to pursue the person and eventually gets them? Well, this year Fitzgerald is the star of that film, with the Madden Curse co-starring as "death."
The first thing that came to my mind, as a Steelers fan, last year when I saw Fitz and Troy on the cover, was "dammit Troy! Why did you agree to be on that stupid cover!!" Sure enough, Troy get his knee scrambled early on and is basically out for the year.
Avoid Fitz...the writing is (or was) on the cover.
The first thing that came to my mind, as a Steelers fan, last year when I saw Fitz and Troy on the cover, was "dammit Troy! Why did you agree to be on that stupid cover!!" Sure enough, Troy get his knee scrambled early on and is basically out for the year.
Avoid Fitz...the writing is (or was) on the cover.
kutta
Footballguy
There was no "unfairness" intended. I and many others in this thread have used observation as a way to try to convince some of you that Leinart is not a good QB and will adversely affect Fitz's numbers. I have seen every snap Leinart has taken since he has been in the league, and I have tried to lay out why I think he will be so bad. Then someone made the comment that you can still have good WR numbers even with a bad QB. Fine. So then I went to the numbers to show that while that is true, you are MUCH better off with a QB in the top 10 of passer rating throwing to your WR than you are with a QB in the bottom 10, and Leinart's career passer rating puts him in that bottom category.Go ahead and pick whatever stats are going to make you feel good. I don't know how else to tell you that the guy is no good.
Tau837
Footballguy
I agree. Unfortunately for him, that was his high point.
I disagree. He has started 17 regular season games. His overall QB rating in those games is 72.9. He has only had a QB rating of 80 or higher in 2 of his 6 starts since his rookie season. And these facts don't include preseason games in which he performed miserably as the starter. Not that I count preseason performances for much, but he certainly imploded in preseason 2008, when the job was there for the taking... and those were games for which he prepared as the starter/#1 QB.
His own coach was critical:
kutta
Footballguy
Not sure where you are getting your numbers.His rookie year he played in 12 games and started 11. His passer rating was 74 for the year.
The next year he started all five games he played in. His passer rating was 61.9.
The next year he did not start any games, so according to you we should not use those stats. His passer rating was 80.2.
And last year he started one game. His passer rating for the year was 64.6, and for that ONE game it was 88.1.
So what stats do you want to use exactly?
Disclosure: I am a huge fan of Larry Fitzgerald and while I haven't been impressed with Leinart so far in his career, I always pull for the underdog guy to bounce back and redeem himself after he fell from grace ( USC hype, early first round pick, etc.) - which I see Leinart as that guy.
I am still alarmed with stuff like this:
Audio: Leinart defends pass to Fitzgerald
By Mike Sando
Larry Fitzgerald grew up around Cris Carter. Fitzgerald spends part of his offseasons working out with Carter in Minnesota.
When Carter suggests Matt Leinart hung out Fitzgerald with a high pass during the exhibition opener Saturday night, he's speaking as more than just an ESPN analyst or a former NFL receiver. He's speaking as someone who might know what Fitzgerald thinks after the Pro Bowl receiver suffered a sprained MCL on the 16-yard reception.
Leinart responded to the comments Carter made on ESPN's "NFL Live" during an interview Tuesday with KTAR radio in Phoenix (I'll post the Carter video if and when it becomes available on ESPN.com).
"I didn't throw high," Leinart told KTAR. "It was right there in his chest. It was just one of those plays were it was B.S. and the guy hit him down on his legs. There is nothing you can do about that."
Leinart then took aim at Carter.
"I personally do not care what Cris Carter says," Leinart told KTAR. "He's never really said anything good about me. I respect him, what he did as a football player, but I don't really care about him. Me and Fitz are cool. I hope -- I don't think Fitz is worried about that."
Leinart again blamed the tackle by Houston Texans safety Eugene Wilson.
"It's my job to protect them [receivers], but on a play like that, we have to get up and hit the other dude for doing that in preseason," Leinart said.
KTAR has the audio. The segment on Carter falls at the very end.
So not only is Leinart making passes in practice situations against his own D that would normally get Fitz killed, he is carrying it over to preseason games. And then he isn't taking ownership of these mistakes, he is passing it off.
I am starting to think that Leinart's passes are going to get Fitzgerald clobbered at some point in time this season.
I am still alarmed with stuff like this:
Audio: Leinart defends pass to Fitzgerald
By Mike Sando
Larry Fitzgerald grew up around Cris Carter. Fitzgerald spends part of his offseasons working out with Carter in Minnesota.
When Carter suggests Matt Leinart hung out Fitzgerald with a high pass during the exhibition opener Saturday night, he's speaking as more than just an ESPN analyst or a former NFL receiver. He's speaking as someone who might know what Fitzgerald thinks after the Pro Bowl receiver suffered a sprained MCL on the 16-yard reception.
Leinart responded to the comments Carter made on ESPN's "NFL Live" during an interview Tuesday with KTAR radio in Phoenix (I'll post the Carter video if and when it becomes available on ESPN.com).
"I didn't throw high," Leinart told KTAR. "It was right there in his chest. It was just one of those plays were it was B.S. and the guy hit him down on his legs. There is nothing you can do about that."
Leinart then took aim at Carter.
"I personally do not care what Cris Carter says," Leinart told KTAR. "He's never really said anything good about me. I respect him, what he did as a football player, but I don't really care about him. Me and Fitz are cool. I hope -- I don't think Fitz is worried about that."
Leinart again blamed the tackle by Houston Texans safety Eugene Wilson.
"It's my job to protect them [receivers], but on a play like that, we have to get up and hit the other dude for doing that in preseason," Leinart said.
KTAR has the audio. The segment on Carter falls at the very end.
So not only is Leinart making passes in practice situations against his own D that would normally get Fitz killed, he is carrying it over to preseason games. And then he isn't taking ownership of these mistakes, he is passing it off.
I am starting to think that Leinart's passes are going to get Fitzgerald clobbered at some point in time this season.
bostonfred
Footballguy
He didn't prepare as the starter at all last year. He played the second half of the Rams game when Warner got dinged up, and completed 10 of 14 for 74 yards. Warner begged out of the game on Sunday morning after saying he'd be able to play all week. Leinart still came in and looked decent, going 21 for 31 for 220 yards (they lost 20-17). He didn't start their meaningless week 17 game against Green Bay, who they were about to face in the first round of the playoffs, but he did come in and play a vanilla game plan against a very good defense, and put up terrible numbers - 13 of 21 for 96 yards and two picks. The stats show nine rush attempts last year. That came on three rushes for -3, three rushes for -3, one rush for -1, one rush for 0, and one actual run for a yard. Kneeldowns or no, though, the stats show 9 rushes for -6 yards. And he still had In 2008, he didn't start once. He came in late in a blowout loss to New England, 3000 miles from home, and threw for 138 yards and a TD and an INT in late December. His 6 for 14 passing was brutal - except that Warner had gone 6 for 18 for just 30 yards before getting the hook. Hard to blame Leinart for looking better than Warner in the same game when he came in cold. Oh, and Leinart was 9 for 15 for 126 yards, and had three kneeldowns in his other action that year. And he still had an 80.2 passer rating. In 2007, he had two games - a bad one where he went 14/28, 102/1/2 against the 49ers, and a good one where he went 23/37 for 299/1/1 and beat the division leading Seahawks. His reward for that was that Warner started coming in "situationally", getting more snaps than Leinart in games against Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Not surprisingly, Leinart struggled as he was getting less prep time with the first team offense and was playing against some of the toughest defenses in the league. Leinart then got a season ending injury in week 5 and went on IR. His season passer rating may have sucked, but I think you can look at the circumstances and at least say that they were difficult. And that leaves his rookie season, which we agree was pretty decent, even though he started with a sprained right shoulder. And I totally disagree that he "imploded" in the 2008 preseason. The first game he was 7 of 8 for 91 yards in his start against the Saints and led his team on a scoring drive. The following week he was 7 for 11 for 62 yards and a TD. His big implosion was one game, against the #1 pass defense in the league, when he went 4 for 12 with 3 INTs. The following week he went 10 for 14 for 177 yards and a TD. Overall he was 28 for 45 for 362 yards, 3 TDs and 3 INTs in that supposedly disasterous preseason. The coaching staff was already leaning towards Warner after he looked good in 2007, and they started him the rest of the way, en route to a Superbowl. Yeah, Warner was better. But Leinart was pretty good, too. He had one bad game, against the top pass defense.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
Pretty sure we're using the same stats. I agree that his passer rating was 74 his rookie year. Peyton Manning's rookie year is generally considered to be awesome. Manning had a 71.2 passer rating that year. Leinart's passer rating during his rookie year was 74. I think it's fair to say that he looked good his rookie season. The next year, he may have "started" all five games, but they split snaps in practices, and in three of them, Warner came in "situationally". And Leinart got knocked out for the season in that last game. I wrote it all out a moment ago. And you're right, he didn't get to start in 2008, and I'd add that last year, his only start was a game when Warner had practiced all week then decided on game day that he wouldn't be able to play. And Leinart still put up the 88.1 passer rating you mentioned.
Which begs the question, how many games has Leinart been able to prepare as the "starter" since his rookie season? The first two of his sophomore season. And he had one mediocre/poor game, and one very good game. I understand that you're critical of his play, and I think some of that criticism is fair, but I really don't think he's had anything close to a fair chance to prove himself until now. Saying he's an unmitigated bust at this point is just completely unfounded imo.
kutta
Footballguy
Fred, do you follow the Cardinals or are you just looking at stats? I don't mean that in a bad way, but I am wondering how closely you've watched Leinart and followed his career, especially seeing that you don't really seem to understand the dynamics of the 2008 preseason. The 2008 competition in preseason was real and Leinart, and the Raiders game was Leinart's chance to win the job. The coaches let him start the game - the 3rd preseason game where usually the starters play for the entire half. Leinart was horrible. Beyond horrible. To say he imploded is extremely accurate. Warner came in and did fine. St. Pierre did fine. But Leinart stunk.
kutta
Footballguy
Fair enough. We disagree. We'll see how the season pans out for Fitz and the Cards and we can come back to this thread later and one of us will eat some crow. I really hope it's me eating crow because I am a huge Cardinals fan and would like nothing better than to see Matt perform well.
Tau837
Footballguy
You have a strange manner of debating this issue. I suppose it's because you have a clear agenda that runs contrary to most facts and to prevailing opinion.You are the one who brought up games started in your earlier post and cited his one good game as a starter last year. I said it was cherry picking and you responded that he has looked good when he had the chance to prepare as a starter. Now you go on to say that doesn't apply to his one start last year, because he didn't actually prepare to start that game. And you then write two paragraphs that has nothing to do with his other 16 games started, and thus has nothing to do with the portion of my post you quoted.[Have to split posts due to quote restrictions.]
Tau837
Footballguy
The "situations" Warner started coming in for were those where Leinart was playing poorly and the team was losing. Old post on this in response to some LHUCKs misinformation:
With regard to what happened in 2008 preseason, here is a post from Bloom on that. In that same thread, there were numerous posts citing sources that supported that Leinart entered preseason as the frontrunner to start.
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Tau837
Footballguy
With regard to the bolded, do you have any evidence that Leinart didn't get starting QB snaps in practice during the first 4-5 games of 2007? He started and played the entire game in the first two games. He started and played the first three quarters of the third game, and played poorly enough that Whisenhunt pulled him for Warner. I think it's extremely likely that Leinart got starter snaps and preparation for all three of those games at minimum. And he was still the starter for games 4 and 5, so I would not assume he did not get full starter preparation for those games. I could maybe see that happening after game 4, the second game in a row that Warner replaced a struggling Leinart and rallied the team... but probably not prior to game 4.Anyway, it seems to me that you are skewing what really happened.
And with this series of posts, I will now disengage from this debate with you. I know from past debates there is no use in continuing. However, we can certainly revisit this during the season.
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Grahamburn
Footballguy
What year is it again?
bostonfred
Footballguy
Watching the replay of the Cards game on NFL Network right now and the catch by Fitz where Wilson lines him up and pops him mid-jump. catching him right in the leg. Fitzgerald looked a little tight after the catch, but stayed in the game. After the drive, he got some ice on his knee, and they looked at it. I watched it a couple times, and he didn't really hang Fitzgerald out to dry. It was a long pass, Fitz found the seam, and the D back popped him before he landed. Carter was right that he put him in a position to get hit, but it's not like he was throwing the ball high on a crossing route over the middle surrounded by linebackers. Every QB in the league has thrown that pass.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't understand how this is even a question. Leinart was the assumed starter. If you remember back, Kurt Warner held an interview where he said he didn't think it was fair that he wasn't even being given a shot (Fred was signed up on this board before then, so I know he didn't start watching football later than that). The coaches then said it was an "open competition" and everyone here just laughed, because we all knew that Matt was the starter.Leinart just played so poorly that they eventually had to make the switch.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
You're wrong. Warner was inserted in the first half, Leinart came back in, then Warner came back in again. And they had both been taking snaps in practice for these "situational substitutions" that led to Leinart losing the job. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d802a...arned-in-week-3
Two-headed Cardinal
While the Cardinals came away with a last-second loss to the Baltimore Ravens, the use of backup quarterback Kurt Warner may be a move that pays dividends as the season progresses.
Arizona head coach Ken Whisenhunt used Warner as a situational substitution for starter Matt Leinart. Whisenhunt was expected to bring innovation to the Cardinals offense, and this one will help. Leimart might be the better quarterback when the team is calling plays in the huddle, but Warner can be more dangerous running a no-huddle attack.
More importantly, the mere notion of rotating Leinart and Warner will force opposing defenses to prepare for two different players and two different schemes. And when you have to prepare for two, you are only half as prepared as you could be for one starting quarterback.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/ar...e2main0924.html
When Kurt Warner initially replaced Matt Leinart in the second quarter, play-by-play man Dave Pasch asked analyst Ron Wolfley for his thoughts.
"Wow!" Wolfley said, pausing with a rare loss for the right words. "It's early in this game right now. Matt Leinart is the future, you would imagine, of this franchise."
...
After halftime, sideline reporter Paul Calvisi reported that coach Ken Whisenhunt said Warner's insertion was part of a package. By then, the halftime bunch already had weighed in.
...
Leinart returned on the next possession and the speculation began, even though Warner had run the hurry-up offense in last week's practices as a situational package.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nf...rt-warner_N.htm
And Leinart? He ducked the issue Monday but met it head-on later in the week.
"There are no worries," he declared. "I'm going in with the mind-set I'm going to throw for 300 yards and three touchdowns."
That's nearly what he did (299 yards, one TD) in the Cardinals' win in Week 2 against the Seattle Seahawks. But he has sandwiched so-so games around that performance and brings a 62.6 rating into the Steelers game.
"When he's been challenged," Whisenhunt said, "he's responded. Adversity reveals character, and he's shown that."
Whisenhunt has pushed Leinart's buttons since he arrived from Pittsburgh, prodding him to work on his footwork and improve his game. Leinart has responded with extra workouts.
"I've never been coached this hard," Leinart said.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/tag/_/name...rner/count/1066
Kent Somers of the Arizona Republic explains why the Cardinals are going with Matt Leinart over Kurt Warner at quarterback, despite Warner's more impressive stats last season: "He tended to fumble and his gunslinger's mentality isn't a perfect fit with Whisenhunt's offensive philosophy." Whisenhunt does not anticipate using Warner situationally, as he did last season before an injury felled Leinart. Said Whisenhunt: "One thing that seems to be forgotten is that Matt was growing and doing a pretty good job for us, too, when he got hurt."
bostonfred
Footballguy
Yes, I do remember that. I also remember everyone talking about how good Leinart looked going into that game, and I remember people wondering about Warner and the team squashing that. I do remember that Leinart looked horrible in that game. And I also remember that the Raiders went on to be the #1 pass defense in the league that year. If you don't have Kurt Warner sitting there on the bench, coming off a very good season, Leinart's "implosion" would not have been benchable. I posted his numbers in each game above. He looked very good as the starter until that one terrible game. It is entirely accurate to say that he imploded in week 3. It is not entirely accurate to say that he imploded during the 2008 preseason.
bostonfred
Footballguy
More on this. Leinart and Warner were absolutely splitting snaps during the first games in 2007. And the idea that Leinart was the sure fire starter over Warner simply wasn't true. There was a ton of discussion on it here long before the Oakland game. And even more confirmation Leinart was splitting practice snaps all throughout the preseason.
From 2007
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=346448
“Matt is still our starting quarterback,” Whisenhunt says.
The coach say Warner’s experience makes him better suited to run a hurry-up offense. Warner’s appearance in the first half, when he led the Cardinals to a field goal, their only score in the first half, was planned.
Then Whisenhunt went back to Warner and the hurry-up when the Cardinals were way behind. He says the Cardinals will use this approach in the future.
But we can see what we can see. Warner was much more effective than Leinart.
Look like the Cardinals have a two-quarterback system.
And that will lead to much, much discussion.
--------------
From 2008, before the Oakland game -
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=412869
Looks like Kurt Warner is going to start Saturday at Kansas City.
Coach Ken Whisenhunt wants Warner to get some time with the starters, and the best way to assure that is to put him in at the start.
“I’m thinking about starting him in the game so we can control the reps. You don’t know how that’s going to play out,” Whisenhunt said.
"Reports coming out of AZ this morning is that the starting QB job is still very much up for grabs and some other speculation is that it might be a ploy to raise his trade value to trade him as he is in the last year of his contract and is pulling in $5M this year.
Regardless, Warner should be starting somewhere in the NFL for the majority of games in 2008. He has looked better than Leinart in camp from all indications and Warner has said that if he starts he will play for another 2 years after 2008.
Warner is likely one of the better values late in a draft. I find it interesting that this is getting as little play as it is here. It is becoming a bigger and bigger story in AZ. "
"Sun, Aug 17 Matt Leinart has a slim lead over Warner on the Cardinals' depth chart, the Arizona Republic reports.
"Recommendation: Head coach Ken Whisenhunt said that both quarterbacks were inconsistent in Saturday's preseason game, but he also found plenty of positives. Leinart has more long-term upside and should remain the starter if he outperforms or at least equals Warner, but he should have to deal with quarterback controversy rumors all year."
From 2008 - after the Oakland game
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=415487
Kurt Warner, QB ARI
News: After ESPN reported that the Cardinals were going to name Kurt Warner as their starting quarterback, the Arizona Republic reports that head coach Ken Whisenhunt is still evaluating both passers, and that Leinart is still starting. Both Leinart and Warner took first-team snaps in practice Monday, which has been the case all summer. " Contrary to everything (reported), nothing has changed," Whisenhunt said on the team's official web site. "We have not made a decision. We have not named Kurt the starting quarterback. It's unfortunate it was out there. It's unfortunate Matt has to see those things. But I understand the quarterback is the focus and people are quick to make judgments. It's a process. You don't (make a decision) based on one play or one half. ... But it'd be incorrect of me to ignore the fact Matt didn't play well (at Oakland)."
From 2007
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=346448
“Matt is still our starting quarterback,” Whisenhunt says.
The coach say Warner’s experience makes him better suited to run a hurry-up offense. Warner’s appearance in the first half, when he led the Cardinals to a field goal, their only score in the first half, was planned.
Then Whisenhunt went back to Warner and the hurry-up when the Cardinals were way behind. He says the Cardinals will use this approach in the future.
But we can see what we can see. Warner was much more effective than Leinart.
Look like the Cardinals have a two-quarterback system.
And that will lead to much, much discussion.
--------------
From 2008, before the Oakland game -
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=412869
Looks like Kurt Warner is going to start Saturday at Kansas City.
Coach Ken Whisenhunt wants Warner to get some time with the starters, and the best way to assure that is to put him in at the start.
“I’m thinking about starting him in the game so we can control the reps. You don’t know how that’s going to play out,” Whisenhunt said.
"Reports coming out of AZ this morning is that the starting QB job is still very much up for grabs and some other speculation is that it might be a ploy to raise his trade value to trade him as he is in the last year of his contract and is pulling in $5M this year.
Regardless, Warner should be starting somewhere in the NFL for the majority of games in 2008. He has looked better than Leinart in camp from all indications and Warner has said that if he starts he will play for another 2 years after 2008.
Warner is likely one of the better values late in a draft. I find it interesting that this is getting as little play as it is here. It is becoming a bigger and bigger story in AZ. "
"Sun, Aug 17 Matt Leinart has a slim lead over Warner on the Cardinals' depth chart, the Arizona Republic reports.
"Recommendation: Head coach Ken Whisenhunt said that both quarterbacks were inconsistent in Saturday's preseason game, but he also found plenty of positives. Leinart has more long-term upside and should remain the starter if he outperforms or at least equals Warner, but he should have to deal with quarterback controversy rumors all year."
From 2008 - after the Oakland game
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=415487
Kurt Warner, QB ARI
News: After ESPN reported that the Cardinals were going to name Kurt Warner as their starting quarterback, the Arizona Republic reports that head coach Ken Whisenhunt is still evaluating both passers, and that Leinart is still starting. Both Leinart and Warner took first-team snaps in practice Monday, which has been the case all summer. " Contrary to everything (reported), nothing has changed," Whisenhunt said on the team's official web site. "We have not made a decision. We have not named Kurt the starting quarterback. It's unfortunate it was out there. It's unfortunate Matt has to see those things. But I understand the quarterback is the focus and people are quick to make judgments. It's a process. You don't (make a decision) based on one play or one half. ... But it'd be incorrect of me to ignore the fact Matt didn't play well (at Oakland)."
bostonfred
Footballguy
You're wrong.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
If Leinart lays the egg that many of you predict then Derek Anderson is Plan B. Few QBs in the history of the NFL have locked on a WR more than he did with Braylon Edwards in 2007. He actually made Edwards look like a star.
bostonfred
Footballguy
How did Anderson look in the preseason game? After the INT on his second play, I didn't pay close attention.
kutta
Footballguy
Not very good. I am not very excited about either of these guys. The guy who looked really good was Skelton. He actually threw the ball downfield and made some really nice plays.
Tau837
Footballguy
Yeah, he made Edwards look like a star in 2007, but not so much in 2008. Anderson started 9 games in 2008, and in those games Edwards had 28/493/3 receiving, which scales to 50/876/5 over 16 games. Edwards had a number of drops, but Anderson didn't do him any favors either.Frenchy Fuqua said:
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Agreed. I hope everyone in my leagues look to avoid Fitz. I'll be jumping on him big time in the 3rd if he's there but he won't be.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
FWIW in every mock I've done in last 3-4 days i have passend on fitz at 3.6 12 teamer and in most he goes in the 4th.
Jolly Swagman
Footballguy
cheesiest thing I have seen posted in a while, good work mop!
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
We haven't even started yet.
Crash Davis
Footballguy
I agree with this. I don't like to take guys who have pre-season knee injuries unless they fall pretty far. You know they won't be 100% at the start of the year, and it's not like the NFL is a place where you can count on healing while playing. The downside is automatically greater than the upside. Before his injury I had little fear of his QB situation though. You draft talent, and this guy is as talented as any WR in the NFL. Whether it was Leinart, Anderson, or Skelton, I was pretty sure he was going to get his this season. At this point i'll be passing on him in the first 2 rounds. After that I'll have to evaluate how my draft is going and who else is available. I think I will find it pretty hard to pass him up in round 3 though.
RamMan
Footballguy
Bought him for $38 in our $200 cap auction league draft last night (along with Colston and Ocho). AJ, Moss, Calvin, Austin, Wayne, and Jennings all went for higher bids (Marshall and Roddy were keepers). I like the price I paid for Fitz ($9 less than what he went for last year), but I am not without concern...
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Grahamburn
Footballguy
I think alot of posters in here are going to be looking back at their 2010 fantasy seasons saying "Damn, I would have had a great team if I wouldn't have passed on Larry Fitzgerald."
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
I have the first pick in my draft and if he is at 2.12...Im taking him.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Most that pass on him are taking guys like Randy Moss, MIles Austin, Calvin Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Roddy White...which of these WRs do you see as inherently more risky and how far off do you think owners will suffer for taking one of these other topflight WRs?If we are talking about passing on Fitz and taking a RB like Greene early on then I might understand where you are coming from.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Dude, the TITLE of your thread says you'd pass on him in Rd 4. Since when are those guys going in Rd 4?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Yes but the Fitzfans are feeling like they got a bargain at the top of round 3 and Fitz is usually gone by the top of the 3rd at the latest, I'm just trying to point out that compared to the pool of WRs he usually is drafted in that he is the most risky IMO.
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