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I'd Rather Let My Son Die... (1 Viewer)

Soulfly3 said:
FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
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What if she's not his mother? Should we be able to just drag people off the street, check their blood for a match, and take it if they do match? What if the mother and son were estranged and hated each other? Do we still tie her down and take her blood? You know, saving a life and all.

 
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StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
Click to expand...
What if she's not his mother? Should we be able to just drag people off the street, check their blood for a match, and take it if they do match? What if the mother and son were estranged and hated each other? Do we still tie her down and take her blood? You know, saving a life and all.
Click to expand...
But she is the mother.

 
Soulfly3 said:
StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
Click to expand...
What if she's not his mother? Should we be able to just drag people off the street, check their blood for a match, and take it if they do match? What if the mother and son were estranged and hated each other? Do we still tie her down and take her blood? You know, saving a life and all.
Click to expand...
But she is the mother.
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And I put a question about that in my post. You didn't answer that.....

 
StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
Click to expand...
What if she's not his mother? Should we be able to just drag people off the street, check their blood for a match, and take it if they do match? What if the mother and son were estranged and hated each other? Do we still tie her down and take her blood? You know, saving a life and all.
Click to expand...
But she is the mother.
Click to expand...
And I put a question about that in my post. You didn't answer that.....
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The mother and son love each other very much though. You hypotheticals don't make sense for this case

 
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

This is a religious issue rather than a medical one. Both the Old and New Testaments clearly command us to abstain from blood. (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; Deuteronomy 12:23; Acts 15:28, 29) Also, God views blood as representing life. (Leviticus 17:14) So we avoid taking blood not only in obedience to God but also out of respect for him as the Giver of life.
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How is eating blood the same as blood transfusions? All of the verses referenced, talk about abstaining from eating blood...

 
As a religious Christian (but not JW) this is very hard for me. I understand strong belief, but can't fathom holding firm when it could save a life. Having said that, in her mind, this is analogous to making a morally horrific choice to save him. I guess it would be akin to a strong pro-lifer having to choose to abort a late term pregnancy to save the mother.

To be clear - I don't think those 2 scenarios are analogous at all, but from her belief system, they would be.

Does anyone know why JWs feel this strongly about blood transfusions? - Nevermind, posted immediately above.

 
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Spin said:
http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

This is a religious issue rather than a medical one. Both the Old and New Testaments clearly command us to abstain from blood. (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; Deuteronomy 12:23; Acts 15:28, 29) Also, God views blood as representing life. (Leviticus 17:14) So we avoid taking blood not only in obedience to God but also out of respect for him as the Giver of life.
Click to expand...
How is eating blood the same as blood transfusions? All of the verses referenced, talk about abstaining from eating blood...
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They use the scenario of an alcoholic.

If he doesn't ingest the alcohol and injects it instead, does it make it any different? He's still an alcoholic.

Their logic, not mine

 
If I save my sons life and I go to hell, well thats the price I pay I guess.

I would also repent ya know, immediately after, because god forgives and all

 
B- here. If it comes down to it, send me a msg. I'd be happy I help. And I'm definitely in the boat about religion getting in the way of a lot of stuff.

 
Godsbrother said:
If she believes that giving blood will condemn either her son or herself to hell then I can understand why she wouldn't.

That said it seems like a goofy thing to believe to me. A lot of religions seem to think God is a real jerk.
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Well? Is he?

 
Soulfly3 said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
Scoresman said:
mr roboto said:
Does anyone know why JWs feel this strongly about blood transfusions?
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Because they're dumb. I don't think there's a nice way to put it.
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they dont believe in dinosaurs or birthday parties either.

freaks
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they dont celebrate anything... except they have a service during Easter.
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I think they celebrate Joseph Henry. He's the fella that invented the first electric doorbell.

 
McGarnicle said:
It's an interesting question. Refusing a blood transfusion that could save a life seems pretty awful, since it's a pretty simple, low-risk and routine procedure. Chemo is anything but. Where should we draw the line? I'm probably in the minority but I believe the right to self-determination is the most basic right we have as humans. These religious beliefs seem insane to us, but we have freedom of religion in this country. It's these types of cases that certainly test those boundaries though.
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I don't think the government or hospital should have any say in whether or not the mother can give blood. If someone is too stupid or selfish to help someone out then whatever, that's their right. The mother just needs to not be so damned stupid.

 
Soulfly3 said:
StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
StrikeS2k said:
Soulfly3 said:
FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
Click to expand...
What if she's not his mother? Should we be able to just drag people off the street, check their blood for a match, and take it if they do match? What if the mother and son were estranged and hated each other? Do we still tie her down and take her blood? You know, saving a life and all.
Click to expand...
But she is the mother.
Click to expand...
And I put a question about that in my post. You didn't answer that.....
Click to expand...
The mother and son love each other very much though. You hypotheticals don't make sense for this case
Click to expand...
The part of your post that I responded to was where you were asking lawyers for a legal opinion. The law doesn't really take how much people love each other in to account when trying to force someone to do something for the other, at least not when those people are adults. My hypotheticals are based on that premise. You're wanting to force someone to do something they don't want to do. What is your legal basis for that? Because they love each other?

 
FreeBaGeL said:
McGarnicle said:
It's an interesting question. Refusing a blood transfusion that could save a life seems pretty awful, since it's a pretty simple, low-risk and routine procedure. Chemo is anything but. Where should we draw the line? I'm probably in the minority but I believe the right to self-determination is the most basic right we have as humans. These religious beliefs seem insane to us, but we have freedom of religion in this country. It's these types of cases that certainly test those boundaries though.
Click to expand...
I don't think the government or hospital should have any say in whether or not the mother can give blood. If someone is too stupid or selfish to help someone out then whatever, that's their right. The mother just needs to not be so damned stupid.
Click to expand...
This is why I'm having a difficult time with this question. To me, it's asinine and cruel not to give the blood transfusion. On the other hand, a person's beliefs on life, God, the afterlife, etc. cut to the very core of who we are as humans. I hate the idea of the state telling me I can't end my life if I'm suffering from a terminal illness and in tremendous pain. I hate the idea of the state compelling me to endure grueling rounds of a treatment that may cure me or may make me sicker. But I honestly don't know where the line should be drawn. I don't think kids should die because their parents don't believe in vaccines or transfusions or whatever, but I can't reconcile that in my brain with the concept of freedom of religion. I'm glad I don't have to make that call.

 
For anyone interested in the reasons why JW's feel this way, I'd recommend going to the source: http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

Abstaining from blood is one of the oldest commands given in the bible. It pre-dated the Mosaic Law, as it was given directly to Noah. It was re-instituted in the Law and despite the Christian congregation freeing the Christians of many of the laws of the Israelites, the command to abstain from blood was not one of them, as Paul showed it was still in effect. Tertullian also had a number of interesting comments about blood that show the attitude Christians had way back then. Obviously these laws were not discussing blood transfusions, but JW's feel the commands stand.

The point in the above is only to show that there is a reason behind it. JW's have extremely strong convictions. Many died in German concentration camps, when they were one of the few groups who could have actually left the camps anytime they wanted, by simply renouncing their faith. Many of you think the bible is a book of fairytales, so you obviously won't accept those reasons. But love for God causes JW's to try and be obedient to their beliefs, even if it means a death that comes a little earlier than it possibly would otherwise. As an aside, death due to this is not a common thing. Doctors are often very careful in surgeries with JW's. I had a close friend who entered a "bloody surgery" and took a lot of heat from doctors for her beliefs. She lost a tiny amount of blood due to their extreme caution.

JW's are certainly not the only people to die for their beliefs. But since I know of no other religion or people that abstain from blood transfusions, it's so different and "out there" that it's not understood very well. People send their kids off to war, and many of them "die for their country" as well as kill many others. (JW's worldwide do not fight in any wars) Parents that lose a kid in war likely have a strange sense of pride and sorrow. I'm sure any JW's who have lost children strictly due to the fact that they didn't receive blood (I don't know any but they do exist), feel similar feelings. Dying stinks for everyone and throughout history people have died standing up for what they believe in. JW's believe in God and the bible and have no problem dying for those beliefs.

Anyway, I only posted this because I felt that some level of defense was needed. I understand if you don't agree, but at least maybe some of you will understand.

 
shader said:
For anyone interested in the reasons why JW's feel this way, I'd recommend going to the source: http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

Abstaining from blood is one of the oldest commands given in the bible. It pre-dated the Mosaic Law, as it was given directly to Noah. It was re-instituted in the Law and despite the Christian congregation freeing the Christians of many of the laws of the Israelites, the command to abstain from blood was not one of them, as Paul showed it was still in effect. Tertullian also had a number of interesting comments about blood that show the attitude Christians had way back then. Obviously these laws were not discussing blood transfusions, but JW's feel the commands stand.

The point in the above is only to show that there is a reason behind it. JW's have extremely strong convictions. Many died in German concentration camps, when they were one of the few groups who could have actually left the camps anytime they wanted, by simply renouncing their faith. Many of you think the bible is a book of fairytales, so you obviously won't accept those reasons. But love for God causes JW's to try and be obedient to their beliefs, even if it means a death that comes a little earlier than it possibly would otherwise. As an aside, death due to this is not a common thing. Doctors are often very careful in surgeries with JW's. I had a close friend who entered a "bloody surgery" and took a lot of heat from doctors for her beliefs. She lost a tiny amount of blood due to their extreme caution.

JW's are certainly not the only people to die for their beliefs. But since I know of no other religion or people that abstain from blood transfusions, it's so different and "out there" that it's not understood very well. People send their kids off to war, and many of them "die for their country" as well as kill many others. (JW's worldwide do not fight in any wars) Parents that lose a kid in war likely have a strange sense of pride and sorrow. I'm sure any JW's who have lost children strictly due to the fact that they didn't receive blood (I don't know any but they do exist), feel similar feelings. Dying stinks for everyone and throughout history people have died standing up for what they believe in. JW's believe in God and the bible and have no problem dying for those beliefs.

Anyway, I only posted this because I felt that some level of defense was needed. I understand if you don't agree, but at least maybe some of you will understand.
Click to expand...
Understand what? This is just stupid. Period.

 
I can understand dying for something tangible.

Not for a series of stories.

I have no problem with religion, and those who believe in whatever. But I also have no problems questioning some of the ridiculous stances they take.

fwiw, I believe there is a higher being. some form or another. and no book has ever been able to give me answers to what I think I believe. So I believe what I believe and do what I do.

 
Soulfly3 said:
beavers said:
I guess this is no different than a case here in Ohio, where an Amish family refused chemo for their daughter. With chemo, she has a 90%+ survival rate. Without, it's significantly less. The hospital tried to fight the refusal, was granted temporary guardianship then the Amish family fled. The hospital ultimately ended up giving up the fight. As a mother, I would do anything and everything to save my child. But then again, I don't have strong religious beliefs that would be a potential barrier.
Click to expand...
This is what I dont understand.

If your God is supposed to be all loving and giving - and expects the same from hsi creations... would he not want you giving the ultimate gift (of life) to your child, if they were in need?
Click to expand...
Is the ultimate gift "life" or the "after life"?

 
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.

 
shader said:
For anyone interested in the reasons why JW's feel this way, I'd recommend going to the source: http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovahs-witnesses-why-no-blood-transfusions/

Abstaining from blood is one of the oldest commands given in the bible. It pre-dated the Mosaic Law, as it was given directly to Noah. It was re-instituted in the Law and despite the Christian congregation freeing the Christians of many of the laws of the Israelites, the command to abstain from blood was not one of them, as Paul showed it was still in effect. Tertullian also had a number of interesting comments about blood that show the attitude Christians had way back then. Obviously these laws were not discussing blood transfusions, but JW's feel the commands stand.

The point in the above is only to show that there is a reason behind it. JW's have extremely strong convictions. Many died in German concentration camps, when they were one of the few groups who could have actually left the camps anytime they wanted, by simply renouncing their faith. Many of you think the bible is a book of fairytales, so you obviously won't accept those reasons. But love for God causes JW's to try and be obedient to their beliefs, even if it means a death that comes a little earlier than it possibly would otherwise. As an aside, death due to this is not a common thing. Doctors are often very careful in surgeries with JW's. I had a close friend who entered a "bloody surgery" and took a lot of heat from doctors for her beliefs. She lost a tiny amount of blood due to their extreme caution.

JW's are certainly not the only people to die for their beliefs. But since I know of no other religion or people that abstain from blood transfusions, it's so different and "out there" that it's not understood very well. People send their kids off to war, and many of them "die for their country" as well as kill many others. (JW's worldwide do not fight in any wars) Parents that lose a kid in war likely have a strange sense of pride and sorrow. I'm sure any JW's who have lost children strictly due to the fact that they didn't receive blood (I don't know any but they do exist), feel similar feelings. Dying stinks for everyone and throughout history people have died standing up for what they believe in. JW's believe in God and the bible and have no problem dying for those beliefs.

Anyway, I only posted this because I felt that some level of defense was needed. I understand if you don't agree, but at least maybe some of you will understand.
Click to expand...
Actually this is understood by everyone else as a dietary issue. They didn't even know of transfusions when the Bible was written they are specifically talking about drinking or eating blood. This was a practice with older pagan religions. Oh and the same passage in Leviticus says no animal fat either. Do JWs not consume any animal fat? How do they manage that?

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.
Click to expand...
If you wouldn't schedule a parent/teacher conference just because the parent is a JW, then you shouldn't proceed in getting your teaching certificate.

 
simey said:
Ministry of Pain said:
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.
Click to expand...
If you wouldn't schedule a parent/teacher conference just because the parent is a JW, then you shouldn't proceed in getting your teaching certificate.
Click to expand...
You're one of the smartest gals around....please tell me you don't believe his BS. His fabricated story of going into teaching is about as real as the Piltdown Man.

 
Soulfly3 said:
chet said:
What am I missing?

B, Rh Negative, 1 person in 67, 1.5%

Test another 67 people to find a match. Or is it more complicated than that?
Click to expand...
I dont know how many folks donate blood... and the ones that do are more than likely not B-

they do have the blood available, but there is a shortage, and they just wanted "cover"

odds are he wont need it at all... But the point of the story was above and beyond that - and how a believe in something is so strong that she would stick to that conviction over her sons life.
Click to expand...
I worked blood bank for years, and there is honestly rarely a true shortage of blood. It's scary how many units of blood we threw away while the Red Cross was advertising shortages. Now, he could have an antibody in his blood that could make it significantly harder to find blood. However, I've only had once or twice where it took longer than a day to find blood. In those instances it can take weeks. B- with no antibodies though, shouldn't be a problem.

 
Jewish law (the Talmud) teaches that, in the face of emergency, all rules and regulations can be thrown out the window- none are as important as saving a human life. Thus, it is perfectly acceptable for an orthodox Jew to eat pork if that's the only thing that will save him from starvation. And in the concentration camps, it was OK for religious Jews to work on the Sabbath, because the alternative was death.

I'm surprised that Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion like all Christianity ultimately comes from Judaism and the teachings of Hillel in particular, doesn't have this sort of exception. If they did, then this sort of thing wouldn't be an issue. Blood transfusions could still be forbidden except when saving a life was at stake.

 
General Malaise said:
simey said:
Ministry of Pain said:
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.
Click to expand...
If you wouldn't schedule a parent/teacher conference just because the parent is a JW, then you shouldn't proceed in getting your teaching certificate.
Click to expand...
You're one of the smartest gals around....please tell me you don't believe his BS. His fabricated story of going into teaching is about as real as the Piltdown Man.
Click to expand...
I only believe the parts where he shows how prejudice he is.

 
That woman is a gigantic POS and it would be great if she died after a long painful existence that could have been remedied with a blood transfusion.

 
Soulfly3 said:
Here is the situation.

One of my best buds is in the hospital, and he's not doing to well. I've made a few treks out there and shot the breeze with him, making sure he doesn't need anything, etc.

So last night I'm there, and the people in the room (which includes some family and friends) are discussing getting their blood tested because my friend has a rare blood type and in case of an emergency or complications during surgery they want to be sure they have enough blood to cover the risks. Fair enough, I have NO idea what blood type I am so I say Im in... who wouldnt potentially want to save their best friend's life if they can?

I ask his mother jokingly if she'll hold my hand if they have to draw blood. She looks at me in semi disgust and says "are you kidding me?" I thought maybe I had crossed the line and she wasnt in a joking mood, so I apologized.

Another family member comes over to me and apologizes on the mother's behalf and tell me she is a Jehova's Witness and they are adamantly AGAINST blood transfusions. Not only this... but she is the ONLY match in the family for his blood type and she has refused to have any drawn to potentially save her sons life.

I'm all for folks believing what they want to believe, but there are limits of stupidity. A mother refusing to help save her sons life is one of them. She apparently told the room there is no way even if he was on his last breath that she was give some of her life oil up.

I know religious debate is frowned upon... But this woman has ALWAYS been a good mother. always been there, giving what she needed and thensome. But her conviction is so strong she wouldnt save her own son's life.

FBG lawyers - Is there a way we can legally tie her down to draw blood if need be? The defense being it was necessary to save a life?
Click to expand...
I know of no rule that can compel her or anyone else to donate blood to save someone.

Law aside, she's a damn fool.

 
simey said:
Ministry of Pain said:
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.
Click to expand...
If you wouldn't schedule a parent/teacher conference just because the parent is a JW, then you shouldn't proceed in getting your teaching certificate.
Click to expand...
You folks need to lighten up

 
Ministry of Pain said:
I have an 8th grade math student who is a little weird, she does alright in class but is like 1 off...if your dial is set to 12:00, hers is somewhere around 10:45.

So I am at my desk and she approaches me and invites me to a meeting as she opens up one of those Jehova's Witness pamphlets. On the one hand she thinks enough of me to want to try and "save me" but on the other hand I was offended but trying hard not to. It falls on my birthday so I politely declined but there is about 0% chance I will ever schedule a parent/teacher conference, we know what is going to be walking thru that door.
Click to expand...
Not for nothing, but if my dial is set to 12:00, yours is somewhere around Jupiter's 38th moon.
 
simey said:
Soulfly3 said:
chet said:
What am I missing?

B, Rh Negative, 1 person in 67, 1.5%

Test another 67 people to find a match. Or is it more complicated than that?
Click to expand...
I dont know how many folks donate blood... and the ones that do are more than likely not B-

they do have the blood available, but there is a shortage, and they just wanted "cover"

odds are he wont need it at all... But the point of the story was above and beyond that - and how a believe in something is so strong that she would stick to that conviction over her sons life.
Click to expand...
Type O- can donate to B-. My best friend is O-, and she donates blood all the time since she is a universal donor. She can only receive blood from an O- person.
Click to expand...
Technically, O+ can also donate to B-, as long as it's the first time the recipient has received any type of +blood.

 
McGarnicle said:
beavers said:
beavers said:
McGarnicle said:
beavers said:
I guess this is no different than a case here in Ohio, where an Amish family refused chemo for their daughter. With chemo, she has a 90%+ survival rate. Without, it's significantly less. The hospital tried to fight the refusal, was granted temporary guardianship then the Amish family fled. The hospital ultimately ended up giving up the fight. As a mother, I would do anything and everything to save my child. But then again, I don't have strong religious beliefs that would be a potential barrier.
Click to expand...
That is pretty scary that the hospital won temporary guardianship. I take it the daughter is a minor? I've often thought that I wouldn't want chemotherapy. Just load me up on opiates and put on a Breaking Bad marathon.
Click to expand...
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ohio-hospital-force-chemo-amish-girl-court/story?id=20513841
Click to expand...
Amish family flees America to avoid court ordered chemo ...

http://www.offthegridnews.com/2014/03/19/family-flees-america-to-escape-forced-chemo-on-daughter/
Click to expand...
Very creepy police-state vibe to this story. Think of the mechanics of this...nurses strapping the girl down to administer treatment, the family screaming the whole time.

U! S! A!
Click to expand...
Sounds like what the KooK Congress wanted to do to Terry Schiavo.

 
simey said:
fantasycurse42 said:
I'm sure someone has mentioned, but anyone with O Positive can also contribute.

GL.
Click to expand...
B- can only receive blood from a B- or O- person. O+ can donate blood to O+, A+, B+, and AB+. O- can donate to everyone, but only receive from O-.
Click to expand...
O- that's me.

 
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