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Randy Moss. Rob Gronkowski. Wes Welker. Logan Mankins. Matt Light. Damien Woody. Dan Koppen. Corey Dillon. Oh, and let's not forget Adam Vinatieri and Steve Goestkowski, both all-pros in multiple seasons who I seem to recall provided the Pats with a lift on one or two occasions.
@Al Michaels...........No s**t
I think you're missing the point.
Right but if the pass is complete you're not making this argument. I know, I know, you'd be the only guy in America complaining about the call. But Carroll's a genius if that's a TD. That's an even smaller sample size by the way.I've seen this before. It's the worst kind of abuse of small sample size, limiting the data to this only because it tells a "contrarian" story. The average short yardage conversion rate is well north of 50%, and Lynch is one of the many that's above 50%. It's slightly harder to convert at the goal line than a typical short yardage conversion because the defense only has to cover 11 yards back from the line, but even if you assume it's 40% conversion rate you're still talking about close to an 80% chance of a TD on three attempts. And if you don't trust Lynch you can have Wilson sneak it, or give it to the fullback on a quick handoff out of the I.I wish I could find it, but I read something like Lynch is 1 of 5 or 1 of 7 this year from the 1.The tremendous luck I was referring to was throwing the ball with 2nd and goal at the one with Beast Mode in the backfield.I'm not sure how anyone could call Brady's 2 TD drives in the 4th quarter "tremendous luck". Also, the INT by Butler was not "tremendous luck" -- he made a fantastic defensive play.
Tremendous luck is Kearse getting the ball randomly deflected to him, and catching it with his back on the ground.
Seattle had 2 TDs from the 1 that I could find all season. 1 was run by Lynch. 1 was thrown by Wilson.
The play turned out badly for them. But I don't think it's nearly as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
It was absolutely as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
Kool Aid/12punch is a moron and a troll. You're wasting your time and energy.
Passing in short yardage is, generally speaking, a really really bad move. Here's plenty of data supporting that point. And that's before you consider the clock and turnover variables.Right but if the pass is complete you're not making this argument. I know, I know, you'd be the only guy in America complaining about the call. But Carroll's a genius if that's a TD. That's an even smaller sample size by the way.I've seen this before. It's the worst kind of abuse of small sample size, limiting the data to this only because it tells a "contrarian" story. The average short yardage conversion rate is well north of 50%, and Lynch is one of the many that's above 50%. It's slightly harder to convert at the goal line than a typical short yardage conversion because the defense only has to cover 11 yards back from the line, but even if you assume it's 40% conversion rate you're still talking about close to an 80% chance of a TD on three attempts. And if you don't trust Lynch you can have Wilson sneak it, or give it to the fullback on a quick handoff out of the I.I wish I could find it, but I read something like Lynch is 1 of 5 or 1 of 7 this year from the 1.The tremendous luck I was referring to was throwing the ball with 2nd and goal at the one with Beast Mode in the backfield.I'm not sure how anyone could call Brady's 2 TD drives in the 4th quarter "tremendous luck". Also, the INT by Butler was not "tremendous luck" -- he made a fantastic defensive play.
Tremendous luck is Kearse getting the ball randomly deflected to him, and catching it with his back on the ground.
Seattle had 2 TDs from the 1 that I could find all season. 1 was run by Lynch. 1 was thrown by Wilson.
The play turned out badly for them. But I don't think it's nearly as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
It was absolutely as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
And I bet Wilson's conversion of 1 yard is pretty close to Lynch's if not better. Especially when there are man to man CBs in coverage and every single other guy is on the line.
To be fair those numbers say a handoff and a QB pass are pretty close (~10% difference). When you consider the Pats defensive formation I'd imagine those go a bit closer. I know Lynch is a better than average RB, then again Wilson is a better than average QB.Passing in short yardage is, generally speaking, a really really bad move. Here's plenty of data supporting that point. And that's before you consider the clock and turnover variables.Right but if the pass is complete you're not making this argument. I know, I know, you'd be the only guy in America complaining about the call. But Carroll's a genius if that's a TD. That's an even smaller sample size by the way.I've seen this before. It's the worst kind of abuse of small sample size, limiting the data to this only because it tells a "contrarian" story. The average short yardage conversion rate is well north of 50%, and Lynch is one of the many that's above 50%. It's slightly harder to convert at the goal line than a typical short yardage conversion because the defense only has to cover 11 yards back from the line, but even if you assume it's 40% conversion rate you're still talking about close to an 80% chance of a TD on three attempts. And if you don't trust Lynch you can have Wilson sneak it, or give it to the fullback on a quick handoff out of the I.I wish I could find it, but I read something like Lynch is 1 of 5 or 1 of 7 this year from the 1.The tremendous luck I was referring to was throwing the ball with 2nd and goal at the one with Beast Mode in the backfield.I'm not sure how anyone could call Brady's 2 TD drives in the 4th quarter "tremendous luck". Also, the INT by Butler was not "tremendous luck" -- he made a fantastic defensive play.
Tremendous luck is Kearse getting the ball randomly deflected to him, and catching it with his back on the ground.
Seattle had 2 TDs from the 1 that I could find all season. 1 was run by Lynch. 1 was thrown by Wilson.
The play turned out badly for them. But I don't think it's nearly as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
It was absolutely as bad of a call as people are making it out to be.
And I bet Wilson's conversion of 1 yard is pretty close to Lynch's if not better. Especially when there are man to man CBs in coverage and every single other guy is on the line.
It was an indefensibly stupid move. Some people who favor results over process might have called him a genius if it worked, but not me.
I don't like the Patriots or the 49ers but I have to agree that Montana and Brady are the overall best QBs that I have watched in 5 decades of the NFL.
players on winning teams tend to make it to pro-bowls and be named all-pros.
Math can be applied (or misapplied) to take either side of an argument.
If you can't tell the difference between Trent Dilfer and Tom Brady then you don't belong in this discussion.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of cross-era comparisons but I think it's pretty clear to everyone he's one of the greatest ever. I was only addressing the idea that Brady's argument is strengthened by the lack of quality in his WR corps, which is silly for a number of reasons, including that it ignores the quality/continuity of his O-line and the coaches he's worked with. There's a lot at play here, you can't just say Montana had Rice and Brady didn't and that's the end of that.players on winning teams tend to make it to pro-bowls and be named all-pros.
There is nothing more that Brady could do to make his case stronger for being labeled the best QB of all time. Anyone who thinks he isn't won't be convinced by stats, winning championships, or anything else. Doesn't mean they're wrong, just means their minds aren't going to change.
Goes both ways. They also played AGAINST some of the most iconic defenders the game has ever known during a time when they were subject to get tackled just a wee bit harder than what is allowed today.
you do realize that in 10ish years, Brady will have played against defenders that heavily populate the Hall of Fame.
and that's just a laundry list of irrelevant nonsense you're pulling out of your ### that you could never make a case for.
so, what you're saying is that brady should've puked up some montana stinkers and got knocked out in the first rounds of those couple years instead of making it to the sb to get beat by the giants ---- cuz that would really solidify his legacy......
My opinion remains unchanged. I would think he gained more distance in the Brady vs Manning debate, especially since he just performed well against the same defense that Peyton face planted against last season. But judging by comments in this thread the one person not responsible for Peyton's playoff collapses is Peyton meanwhile the one person not responsible for Brady's success is Brady.
You're not being fair to Welker, who was a terrific play maker. Wes is clearly near the end of his career, in part due to his toughness and some tremendous hits he took.Kool-Aid Larry said:
I doubt they feel it's not important, just they feel all positions are important.
Don't ignore Gronk due to position. He's one of the best of all time when healthy.I doubt they feel it's not important, just they feel all positions are important.
they offered to make deion branch one of the highest paid receivers and football, but it wasn't enough for him.
they passed on dez, like maybe 22 other teams, but took chad jackson with a high pick --- stuff doesn't always work out.
meanwhile, the guy they took with their first pick that year they passed up dez is one of the league's better free safeties on a sb winning team.
I could probably find some fairly highly drafted wr they passed on who busted, but nobody even remembers those dudes.
i'm about as big a welker fan as there is, but to counter jerry rice and marvin harrison, et al with wes welker and 2 years of moss is
They were, but the two consecutive scoring drives to engineer the biggest fourth quarter comeback in Super Bowl history is pretty convincing.
If people are going to bring up this salary cap argument let's establish something. Joe Montana blew teams out of super bowls. If you're gonna have a team of all stars as some want to claim, then he did what he should have, right? It's a weak argument.
Okay, but that was back when the NFC was miles ahead of the AFC, to where they won like 83 Super Bowls in a row, most of which were not close. The last 18 Super Bowls have only seen a few that weren't close.
This is a really good point. I guess the arguments for brady would be how he did against his contemporaries. having more yards or touchdowns doesn't mean much across generations, but setting nfl records for touchdowns, interceptions, and breaking Marino's long set yardage record, all in different seasons, has to be considered impressive because he set those marks against all comers.
Of course they are, but Pats fans will always be the first to tell you, even if it's irrelevant to the conversation. Some people just can't let great be great, and leave it at that.
I thought you were going the Belichick route there after I read the first part.
