If you had or do have a young son would you let him play American Football? (1 Viewer)

[Good Posting Judge]

Of course, this approach has also netted me a couple kids who love friggin' baseball, so there is definitely a downside to it.

Take it easy there, Comrade.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

2% seems high to me.  I don't know the exact percentages but here are some numbers.

At any one time there are over 1600 players in the NFL, almost all of which have played High School ball.  In 2016 there were over a million boys playing High School Football in America.

There is also a large turn over in Football, more than any other sport, so the pool is being refreshed quickly.

Am i misreading something?  There is no way ~2% of high school football players ever make an NFL roster.  more like .001%.

Sorry. You are right. 

1.6% of college players play in the NFL. So the percentage of HS players that go on to play in the NFL is 1.6% of 6.7%, or about 0.12%.

That is the danger of pulling up statistics and quoting quickly without paying careful attention.

 

[Nigel]

hockey players don't start checking at the age of 11 or 12, not in the USA anyways, they probably do in Canada though.  You are correct though, some kids just want to get to Bantams so they can try and crush people all game, that's their only mission.

You're right, used to be Pee Wee but changed a few years ago, same for Canada. Not sure it was a good idea though, with the size disparity being even more exaggerated at 13/14. Little kids get crushed by big kids who don't know how to hit safely. Better off learning when everyone is smaller IMO. 

 

[Koya]

Sorry. You are right. 

1.6% of college players play in the NFL. So the percentage of HS players that go on to play in the NFL is 1.6% of 6.7%, or about 0.12%.

That is the danger of pulling up statistics and quoting quickly without paying careful attention.

Thanks for the clarification. We frown upon fake news round these parts, NOWadays.

 

[HellToupee]

You're right, used to be Pee Wee but changed a few years ago, same for Canada. Not sure it was a good idea though, with the size disparity being even more exaggerated at 13/14. Little kids get crushed by big kids who don't know how to hit safely. Better off learning when everyone is smaller IMO. 

I remember kids going from squirt to peewee and in the beginning all they wanted to do was check until the novelty wore off. Is it the same way with checking starting at Bamtam?

 

[Chadstroma]

Sure, for players that compete in the NFL for a significant period of time. Less than 2% of high school football players ever even make it on an NFL roster.

Sure, but show me information that says 98-99% of high school players have no brain trauma. 

 

[Koya]

Actually, the investigation found 48 out of the 53 college player brains studied were affected also....3 out of the 14 high school

Hope my kid likes lacrosse (not playing is maybe my one regret)

 

[Politician Spock]

Hope my kid likes lacrosse (not playing is maybe my one regret)

Lacrosse is a great spectator sport.

I think Americans don't go games because they don't like the name of the game. They should rename it "whack the guy who has the ball with your stick until he drops it". 

 

[squidrope]

Actually, the investigation found 48 out of the 53 college player brains studied were affected also....3 out of the 14 high school

I wouldn't let my kid do anything that gave them a > 20% of serious head issues.  The rest of you must be tougher than me.

 

[belljr]

Cool so no CTE then.

I'm not worried about it

 

[Nigel]

I remember kids going from squirt to peewee and in the beginning all they wanted to do was check until the novelty wore off. Is it the same way with checking starting at Bamtam?

Yes

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Sure, but show me information that says 98-99% of high school players have no brain trauma. 

Uh, there is no way to prove a negative, dude.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I wouldn't let my kid do anything that gave them a > 20% of serious head issues.  The rest of you must be tougher than me.

Even the data from that study doesn't suggest that.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I will probably just have a kid who is so elusive that he scores a touchdown every time, wa la no head trauma.

 

[mozzy84]

I remember kids going from squirt to peewee and in the beginning all they wanted to do was check until the novelty wore off. Is it the same way with checking starting at Bamtam?

It is. But a lot of the smaller slower kids will tap out at bantams. No checking in peewees gives those kids a better chance maybe to catch up skil and size wise and not get their bell rung. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

1.6% seems high.  Is that just division 1 schools?

I didn't really dig into the numbers, I just saw them in a news story.

Here is a link to stats from the NCAA

 

[Politician Spock]

I wouldn't let my kid do anything that gave them a > 20% of serious head issues.  The rest of you must be tougher than me.

Even the data from that study doesn't suggest that.

Correct. The 3 cases out of 14 high schoolers had "mild pathology", whereas the majority of college and above cases were "severe pathology".

However, "Among 27 participants with mild CTE pathology, 26 (96%) had behavioral or mood symptoms or both, 23 (85%) had cognitive symptoms, and 9 (33%) had signs of dementia."  So the term "mild" may not be in line with what parents would consider serious head issues.

 

[Chadstroma]

Uh, there is no way to prove a negative, dude.

That is not proving a negative though it is going to be very hard to get that data. Again, it looks pretty clear that the existing data points towards not if but when. We don't know when the when is. It could easily be high school, it could be college and it could be pro's. I am not inclined on rolling the dice with my kids brains on the betting table.

It pains me because I would love to see them play (if they wanted to) but I am becoming more and more inclined to have them look elsewhere for sport. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Correct. The 3 cases out of 14 high schoolers had "mild pathology", whereas the majority of college and above cases were "severe pathology".

However, "Among 27 participants with mild CTE pathology, 26 (96%) had behavioral or mood symptoms or both, 23 (85%) had cognitive symptoms, and 9 (33%) had signs of dementia."  So the term "mild" may not be in line with what parents would consider serious head issues.

The bigger issue is the sampling problem. Since CTE can only be tested posthumously, that presents a real problem. 

I haven't read through all of the study methodology, but if they were testing younger people who died prematurely and happened to play HS football, that methodology presents a real issue as it relates to generalizing the sample to the population of all HS football participants.

If you take people who die young and tested for cancer, I bet you would find a higher incidence of cancer in them than in the overall population of people that age.

Even if they died of something seemingly unrelated, there is still the potential for bias. Could CTE related pathology lead to a higher incidence of drug overdoes, criminal behavior that leads to a violent death, car accidents, or other kinds of illness? 

Beyond that, a sample size of 14 is far too small to be viewed as conclusive, even if it were a truly random sample. 

 

[bradyfan]

You cannot buy good health with money.

 

[Politician Spock]

The bigger issue is the sampling problem. Since CTE can only be tested posthumously, that presents a real problem. 

I haven't read through all of the study methodology, but if they were testing younger people who died prematurely and happened to play HS football, that methodology presents a real issue as it relates to generalizing the sample to the population of all HS football participants.

If you take people who die young and tested for cancer, I bet you would find a higher incidence of cancer in them than in the overall population of people that age.

Even if they died of something seemingly unrelated, there is still the potential for bias. Could CTE related pathology lead to a higher incidence of drug overdoes, criminal behavior that leads to a violent death, car accidents, or other kinds of illness? 

Beyond that, a sample size of 14 is far too small to be viewed as conclusive, even if it were a truly random sample. 

I don't disagree. But it's all we have. I prefer to consider it in lieu of ignoring it and having nothing. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I don't disagree. But it's all we have. I prefer to consider it in lieu of ignoring it and having nothing. 

But how do you consider it? We know concussions are bad. Do we know if the players that showed CTE pathology had multiple concussions?

I would think if traumatic brain injury was incredibly common in HS and youth football, we'd would have been seeing an absolute epidemic of CTE type symptoms for years among men of all ages. 

I prefer to consider evidence carefully, try to apply common sense, and avoid being alarmist.

 

[Zegras11]

Am i misreading something?  There is no way ~2% of high school football players ever make an NFL roster.  more like .001%.

Six players on the Mission Viejo HS team Sanchez played on played in the NFL.  

 

[Jayrod]

But how do you consider it? We know concussions are bad. Do we know if the players that showed CTE pathology had multiple concussions?

I would think if traumatic brain injury was incredibly common in HS and youth football, we'd would have been seeing an absolute epidemic of CTE type symptoms for years among men of all ages. 

I prefer to consider evidence carefully, try to apply common sense, and avoid being alarmist.

I am friends with a number of people who played HS and college football.  Don't know anyone who exhibits signs of CTE.  Doesn't mean they aren't there, but it is hardly prevalent.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, the number of big hits in games is dropping significantly and practices today are much lighter on contact than they used to be.  If my generation of HS players don't really have noticeable brain issues, I feel confident that the next generation will be even safer.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Six players on the Mission Viejo HS team Sanchez played on played in the NFL.  

NFL caliber talent isn't distributed evenly!

 

[Politician Spock]

But how do you consider it? We know concussions are bad. Do we know if the players that showed CTE pathology had multiple concussions?

I would think if traumatic brain injury was incredibly common in HS and youth football, we'd would have been seeing an absolute epidemic of CTE type symptoms for years among men of all ages. 

I prefer to consider evidence carefully, try to apply common sense, and avoid being alarmist.

Such an epidemic would require diagnosis. How do you know CTE is being diagnoses accurately? Perhaps a lot of former high school football jocks are having troubles that aren't being diagnosed because they've had no reason to think anything might be mentally wrong with them. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Such an epidemic would require diagnosis. How do you know CTE is being diagnoses accurately? Perhaps a lot of former high school football jocks are having troubles that aren't being diagnosed because they've had no reason to think anything might be mentally wrong with them. 

Sure. I guess that is possible.

It seems like random surveys could help here. A broad survey of men that asks about some of the hallmark symptoms that are associated with CTE pathology (depression, headaches, etc.) and also asks about participation in football at the youth and HS levels would be useful. If there is a significantly higher incidence of those symptoms in the cohort that participated in football from the group that didn't, then there may be something to worry about.

The good news is a survey like that isn't particularly difficult and doesn't require examination of brains. I have no idea if something like that is being conducted, however.

 

[Gally]

Yep, Minnesota Youth Soccer and I believe US Soccer forbids headers until either U11 or U12. And like I mentioned earlier, I discourage my kids from heading but for the soft looping headers on goal for instance.

I have noticed that since they have outlawed headers for U12 and below that there are a lot more incidents of dangerous plays with players foots coming into contact with head and shoulder areas.  Now instead of using their head to control a bouncing ball all players are kicking at it and I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up causing a different scenario of head/neck injuries.

I would much rather have the rule be specific  for goal kicks/drop kicks from the goalie prohibited than all headers.  90% of the headers in a game for those age groups come from bouncing balls that don't have the force of a directly kicked ball.  Those scenarios are leading to really dangerous plays.  The rule needs to be updated and limited to specific type of balls or there will be other issues.

 

[Hov34]

 I would love to see a bigger survey/study on whether medical doctors would let their sons play football.  Not just due to the head trauma but to the other stress/injuries on the body.

Sports doctor answers: 'Would I let my son play football?'

If We Doctors Would Never Let Our Kids Play Football, Is It Moral To Watch The NFL?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I would much rather have the rule be specific  for goal kicks/drop kicks from the goalie prohibited than all headers.  90% of the headers in a game for those age groups come from bouncing balls that don't have the force of a directly kicked ball.  Those scenarios are leading to really dangerous plays.  The rule needs to be updated and limited to specific type of balls or there will be other issues.

The danger with heading the ball in youth soccer is not so much ball striking head, but head-to-head and shoulder-to-head collisions on set pieces and loose balls.  I think most decent youth coaches were already coaching kids to trap long goal kicks and punts with their chest.

Bellerin knocked out

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Football took its toll on my knees.  As for my head, who can say.  I have no sons that I know about so no worries there.  I do have a nephew who loves the game. 12 years old, 6'2", 180lbs with a rocket for an arm.  My brother lets him play.  He is a Q.B. and a C.B.  We work with him on his tackling technique.  The thing is, with bodies in motion, even with proper technique heads can collide or get kneed.  The danger is inherent and cannot be removed.  Thus far no injuries to the young man.

 

[zDragon]

I wouldn't let my kid do anything that gave them a > 20% of serious head issues.  The rest of you must be tougher than me.

Are you going to allow you kid to drive?  Saw some where it was the leading cause of head trauma in teens.

 

[Jobber]

I have noticed that since they have outlawed headers for U12 and below that there are a lot more incidents of dangerous plays with players foots coming into contact with head and shoulder areas.  Now instead of using their head to control a bouncing ball all players are kicking at it and I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up causing a different scenario of head/neck injuries.

I would much rather have the rule be specific  for goal kicks/drop kicks from the goalie prohibited than all headers.  90% of the headers in a game for those age groups come from bouncing balls that don't have the force of a directly kicked ball.  Those scenarios are leading to really dangerous plays.  The rule needs to be updated and limited to specific type of balls or there will be other issues.

That's a really good point. The only problem is for those age groups, you inevitibly have the really young refs who can barely handle the calls as it is. Maybe at U11+, since you now get linesman, and they then start calling offsides, this is a good place to put in that rule update as you suggested.

 

[Gr00vus]

Are you going to allow you kid to drive?  Saw some where it was the leading cause of head trauma in teens.

Is that total number of incidents or is it total number of incidents/number of teen drivers?

 

[zDragon]

Is that total number of incidents or is it total number of incidents/number of teen drivers?

Like I said I saw research some where. You would need to search for it at the CDC i believe.

My belief is letting my son and daughter drive is a way more dangerous than letting them play football, cheer, soccer, etc. I would never take that away from them if it is what they loved and wanted to do in life. Like I said in a previous post I have seen first hand from my sons football team last year how devastating a blow a serious head injury is to an individual, family and community.  I also stated that I would let him play again knowing the risk and results.  This is largely due to knowing he needs to live life.   

My kids driving scared me more than any sport they have ever participated in.  

 

[Koya]

Like I said I saw research some where. You would need to search for it at the CDC i believe.

My belief is letting my son and daughter drive is a way more dangerous than letting them play football, cheer, soccer, etc. I would never take that away from them if it is what they loved and wanted to do in life. Like I said in a previous post I have seen first hand from my sons football team last year how devastating a blow a serious head injury is to an individual, family and community.  I also stated that I would let him play again knowing the risk and results.  This is largely due to knowing he needs to live life.   

My kids driving scared me more than any sport they have ever participated in.  

You can live life without football easier than without transportation - without which there's a burden to you as parents. Not to mention the need to be in other people's cars.  

You can also mitigate that significantly by getting a safe car, using tech to make sure it's not being driven irresponsibly, teaching defensive driving and holding your kid accountable of they dont.

Not playing football doesn't stop the ability to compete, build teammates and friendships, learn life lessons, discipline, have fun and get exercise. Plenty of other options. 

Unlike our car example, there are not may steps you can take to make football more safe in this regard. Unless there's a vast technological advancement that takes care of the brain with thousands of lower impact collisions and the fewer but potentially very damaging catastrophic ones, you can't  play football defensively or take other steps to address an inherently violent and dangerous game. 

 

[Gr00vus]

My belief is letting my son and daughter drive is a way more dangerous than letting them play football, cheer, soccer, etc.

The question here is whether the rate of brain injury is higher among people who travel in motorized vehicles than it is among people who play tackle football. It's starting to look like that rate for tackle football players is pretty high. If we take the 3 in 14 rate for high schoolers mentioned above as an example, that's about a 21% rate. I'd be surprised if the rate is that high among people who travel in motorized vehicles.

 

[zDragon]

The question here is whether the rate of brain injury is higher among people who travel in motorized vehicles than it is among people who play tackle football. It's starting to look like that rate for tackle football players is pretty high. If we take the 3 in 14 rate for high schoolers mentioned above as an example, that's about a 21% rate. I'd be surprised if the rate is that high among people who travel in motorized vehicles.

https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/get_the_facts.html

Among TBI-related deaths in 2013:1

Motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of death for persons 5-24 years of age.

Among non-fatal TBI-related injuries in 2013:1

Motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of hospitalizations for adolescents and persons 15-44 years of age.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

The question here is whether the rate of brain injury is higher among people who travel in motorized vehicles than it is among people who play tackle football. It's starting to look like that rate for tackle football players is pretty high. If we take the 3 in 14 rate for high schoolers mentioned above as an example, that's about a 21% rate. I'd be surprised if the rate is that high among people who travel in motorized vehicles.

Using 14 is nowhere near where you'd need to be to determine a rate of possible CTE in high school footballs players. According to this, 1,085,272 high school students played football. The 14 studied is about, what, .001% of the high school football playing population? There is no way people should be basing anything on a sample size that small. 

I would agree though, that this will be very, very hard to measure unless new tests can be produced that allow it to be tracked over time, not just post-mortem.

 

[Gr00vus]

Using 14 is nowhere near where you'd need to be to determine a rate of possible CTE in high school footballs players. According to this, 1,085,272 high school students played football. The 14 studied is about, what, .001% of the high school football playing population? There is no way people should be basing anything on a sample size that small. 

I would agree though, that this will be very, very hard to measure unless new tests can be produced that allow it to be tracked over time, not just post-mortem.

It's definitely too small a sample size to make definitive statements. But the trend of the studies in this area isn't encouraging.

 

[Man in the yellow hat]

It's definitely too small a sample size to make definitive statements. But the trend of the studies in this area isn't encouraging.

The trend is not good, I agree. However, I'm really interested to see how it plays out over time. Is it the extra years of college or NFL that causes the most issue? Or, is it High School?

Also, interesting comments from Jordy Nelson on youth football: http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/nfl-players-kids-play-football-start-older/story?id=38107622

"Packers Pro Bowl wide receiver Jordy Nelson has two sons, ages 6 and 14 months. He has no problem with the idea of them playing football, but not before they reach middle school. He began playing contact football at that age and feels it didn't hinder him reaching his athletic potential. Tell him that kids will fall behind their peers if they don't play sooner than later, and Nelson will chuckle. He believes so strongly the other way that he's among a growing group of parents who supports flag football -- not contact -- for preteens.

"It's one of the ways to learn the fundamentals and technique of playing contact football and doing everything right without the contact," he said. "People talk about poor tackling being an issue in contact football. Everyone wants to fix the tackling. Well, tackling in contact football involves hitting each other and hitting your head on the ground, which means more trauma to the brain. But in flag football, obviously you don't have that. But you teach kids to break down, keep your head up, be on balance. Try to get them to pull a flag from someone's hip, it's something that is going to take being in full control of your body, and knowing what your body is doing and telling it what to do, instead of just being the bigger kid who can fly around and blow somebody up because you're bigger and faster than they are."

 

[[scooter]]

My belief is letting my son and daughter drive is a way more dangerous than letting them play football, cheer, soccer, etc

Good point. Also, heroin is way more dangerous than cocaine.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

It's starting to look like that rate for tackle football players is pretty high.

If we take the 3 in 14 rate for high schoolers mentioned above as an example, that's about a 21% rate. I'd be surprised if the rate is that high among people who travel in motorized vehicles.

Not to pick on you, but that is a terrible conclusion to draw from a non-randomized study with no control group and a total sample size of 14.

 

[Gr00vus]

Not to pick on you, but that is a terrible conclusion to draw from a non-randomized study with no control group and a total sample size of 14.

I know.