Illegal immigrants and the virus (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I don’t want to engage in another argument about the status of the people. Yes they didn’t come here legally. Yes they broke the law coming. No they don’t pay as much taxes as legal citizens. Yes they can be a drain on our system. Maybe they shouldn’t be here. We all know all the arguments; I agree with some and not others but even if you agree with all of this it does not change the facts and we have an urgent problem that needs to be addressed, and it can’t wait any longer: 

1. There are 10-15 million of these people. 

2. We can’t round up and deport them all. 

3. They are a grave public health risk RIGHT NOW, given that the schools have all shut down, much of their work have shut down, they’re afraid to go to the authorities, afraid to go to the doctor, and in terms of their living conditions, social distancing is almost impossible. 

So what do we do? We can’t shut our eyes and wish these people away. The only solution I can come up with is one most conservatives are going to hate: that we give these folks amnesty and provide them access to public health services and help. If anyone has a better answer, I’m all ears. 

 

[RCon]

As you point out, they are afraid to go to the authorities and afraid to go to the doctor.  I'm not sure there's much to do.  We can't even test people who are going to the doctor; we're certainly not capable of going door-to-door and offering tests or care.

 

[timschochet]

As you point out, they are afraid to go to the authorities and afraid to go to the doctor.  I'm not sure there's much to do.  We can't even test people who are going to the doctor; we're certainly not capable of going door-to-door and offering tests or care.

They’re afraid because of the fear of deportation. My argument is that we need to remove that fear. 

 

[BladeRunner]

They’re afraid because of the fear of deportation. My argument is that we need to remove that fear. 

They should fear it.  They are here illegally after all. And they should continue to fear it.  

 

[RCon]

I'll preface with...  Obviously, this is a "what should/would we do if I/we had fiat power" thread.  With Trump as POTUS and the GOP in control of the Senate, this is a non-starter.

I wouldn't be on board with blanket amnesty (but you know that).  I would be on board with finding a way to provide test/treatment.  For instance, why do we need a person's name or address to provide a test?  Hand the person a test ticket with a confirmation number.  The person could look up the results online or return the next day with the test ticket to get results.  There are definitely ways to accomplish this.

 

[Amused to Death]

I found this on Facebook, thought it might apply here. Or not.

"Years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead was asked by a student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a culture. The student expected Mead to talk about fishhooks or clay pots or grinding stones.

But no. Mead said that the first sign of civilization in an ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your leg, you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or hunt for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken leg long enough for the bone to heal.

'A broken femur that has healed is evidence that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up the wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person through recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization starts', Mead said.

We are at our best when we serve others. Be civilized."

- Ira Byock, The Best Care Possible: A Physician’s Quest to Transform Care Through the End of Life (Avery, 2012)]

(Shared by Elisabeth)

 

[Kal El]

They should fear it.  They are here illegally after all. And they should continue to fear it.  

They still deserve medical care, if for no other reason than to not have millions of carriers going about unchecked. There's also the matter of having compassion on the poor and sick, because that would be the right thing to do. God forbid we show some mercy.

 

[KPD]

Rich is on the right track.  The statement about making them afraid is the road to many bad places if you ask me.  Desperate people will be pushed to do desperate things.  Everyone better hope that there is enough food and medical assistance for everyone who needs it or this will turn much worse.

 

[John Blutarsky]

How about putting them on your payroll and providing health insurance when you hire them as you have said you do.

 

[timschochet]

How about putting them on your payroll and providing health insurance when you hire them as you have said you do.

I have hired these folks in the past for single jobs only- under $600 as the law provides. But what does this have to do with the subject? 

 

[timschochet]

They should fear it.  They are here illegally after all. And they should continue to fear it.  

How does this serve our public health interests? 

 

[BladeRunner]

They still deserve medical care, if for no other reason than to not have millions of carriers going about unchecked. There's also the matter of having compassion on the poor and sick, because that would be the right thing to do. God forbid we show some mercy.

Your appeal to emotion is not working with me. 

While I agree we should give them medical care IF NECESSARY, we should immediately deport them when we're done.

 

[jm192]

Your appeal to emotion is not working with me.  While I agree we should give them medical care IF NECESSARY, we should immediately deport them when we're done.

But you see where that fails.  If you know you're getting deported--you're probably going to do all that you can to avoid care.  And if you don't get sick from it, you'll just be a silent carrier.  

I've taken care of illegal immigrants allover KY.  None of them got deported.  But I think we need to go out of our way to make sure people feel safe coming forward.

 

[BladeRunner]

But you see where that fails.  If you know you're getting deported--you're probably going to do all that you can to avoid care.  And if you don't get sick from it, you'll just be a silent carrier.  

I've taken care of illegal immigrants allover KY.  None of them got deported.  But I think we need to go out of our way to make sure people feel safe coming forward.

Yeah, I GET that, but we can't promise them amnesty just because they are sick.  They are here illegally, after all.  Are we going to let the criminals run the prison?

 

[jm192]

Yeah, I GET that, but we can't promise them amnesty just because they are sick.  They are here illegally, after all.

No Blade.  We promise them amnesty because their health is our health.  

 

[BladeRunner]

No Blade.  We promise them amnesty because their health is our health.  

Yeah, it's a tough fence to straddle, but there has to be some justice here BOTH ways.

 

[Da Guru]

I don’t want to engage in another argument about the status of the people. Yes they didn’t come here legally. Yes they broke the law coming. No they don’t pay as much taxes as legal citizens. Yes they can be a drain on our system. Maybe they shouldn’t be here. We all know all the arguments; I agree with some and not others but even if you agree with all of this it does not change the facts and we have an urgent problem that needs to be addressed, and it can’t wait any longer: 

1. There are 10-15 million of these people. 

2. We can’t round up and deport them all. 

3. They are a grave public health risk RIGHT NOW, given that the schools have all shut down, much of their work have shut down, they’re afraid to go to the authorities, afraid to go to the doctor, and in terms of their living conditions, social distancing is almost impossible. 

So what do we do? We can’t shut our eyes and wish these people away. The only solution I can come up with is one most conservatives are going to hate: that we give these folks amnesty and provide them access to public health services and help. If anyone has a better answer, I’m all ears. 

Tim,  I am not joking here.  You seem very committed to all the topics you start. Have you though of running for some sort of public office?  You have many ideas that maybe of some interest to some. With the time you spend here you could actually make a difference in people lives in your community. Even if it is just a small amount. 

Here we just argue back and forth between the 25-30 faceless regulars in the PSF. 

 

[jm192]

Yeah, it's a tough fence to straddle, but there has to be some justice here BOTH ways.

I think you'll recognize me as a Trump supporter.  I think something has to be done on immigration too, brother.

I just think this isn't the time to look to fix immigration.  Let's keep everyone (ourselves included) alive.  We can figure out the rest after the storm ends.  Making illegals feel that they can't get tested for fear of deportation will only potentiate the problem.  

 

[BladeRunner]

I think you'll recognize me as a Trump supporter.  I think something has to be done on immigration too, brother.

I just think this isn't the time to look to fix immigration.  Let's keep everyone (ourselves included) alive.  We can figure out the rest after the storm ends.  Making illegals feel that they can't get tested for fear of deportation will only potentiate the problem.  

As long as we can fix it later on I'll be on board with it. 

 

[HellToupee]

I have hired these folks in the past for single jobs only- under $600 as the law provides. But what does this have to do with the subject? 

$5 special and a ride in the back of the pickup

 

[supermike80]

I don’t want to engage in another argument about the status of the people. Yes they didn’t come here legally. Yes they broke the law coming. No they don’t pay as much taxes as legal citizens. Yes they can be a drain on our system. Maybe they shouldn’t be here. We all know all the arguments; I agree with some and not others but even if you agree with all of this it does not change the facts and we have an urgent problem that needs to be addressed, and it can’t wait any longer: 

1. There are 10-15 million of these people. 

2. We can’t round up and deport them all. 

3. They are a grave public health risk RIGHT NOW, given that the schools have all shut down, much of their work have shut down, they’re afraid to go to the authorities, afraid to go to the doctor, and in terms of their living conditions, social distancing is almost impossible. 

So what do we do? We can’t shut our eyes and wish these people away. The only solution I can come up with is one most conservatives are going to hate: that we give these folks amnesty and provide them access to public health services and help. If anyone has a better answer, I’m all ears. 

Great plan Timmy.  It's not like that would cause a massive rush upon our borders, which we really don't need right now.

Yeah, good plan.   Gawd

 

[Kal El]

Your appeal to emotion is not working with me. 

While I agree we should give them medical care IF NECESSARY, we should immediately deport them when we're done.

Sorry we had to twist your arm to get you to feel anything but contempt for them.

 

[BladeRunner]

Sorry we had to twist your arm to get you to feel anything but contempt for them.

Again, your appeal to emotion is not a valid argument. 

 

[Amused to Death]

Great plan Timmy.  It's not like that would cause a massive rush upon our borders, which we really don't need right now.

Yeah, good plan.   Gawd

Why would they coming running here with our crappy healthcare? Both our neighbors to our north and south have universal healthcare. They don't need to come here to get free treatment and testing. Hell, we should be rushing to get *their* healthcare!

 

[supermike80]

Why would they coming running here with our crappy healthcare? Both our neighbors to our north and south have universal healthcare. They don't need to come here to get free treatment and testing. Hell, we should be rushing to get *their* healthcare!

Riggghhhttttttt

 

[supermike80]

Why would they coming running here with our crappy healthcare? Both our neighbors to our north and south have universal healthcare. They don't need to come here to get free treatment and testing. Hell, we should be rushing to get *their* healthcare!

Can we run them from Mexico, right up Interstate 5 and into Canada then?   Heck they got the capabilities!

I mean you're right..Our healthcare here sucks...ask anyone

 

[BladeRunner]

Why would they coming running here with our crappy healthcare? Both our neighbors to our north and south have universal healthcare. They don't need to come here to get free treatment and testing. Hell, we should be rushing to get *their* healthcare!

Yeah, great healthcare if you can actually get in to see doctor.  Hopefully somewhere between 6-10 months if you don't die first.  Universal healthcare is not the answer - unless you want mediocre care and massive wait times.

Saying America has crappy healthcare is absurd.

 

[Amused to Death]

Can we run them from Mexico, right up Interstate 5 and into Canada then?   Heck they got the capabilities!

Mexico has their own universal healthcare. They don't need to come here or to Canada for free treatment. The one's who are already here certainly need treatment just like everyone else right now or we all suffer. Start deporting them and suddenly the others just remain in the shadows infecting people.

 

[Amused to Death]

Yeah, great healthcare if you can actually get in to see doctor.  Hopefully somewhere between 6-10 months if you don't die first.  Universal healthcare is not the answer - unless you want mediocre care and massive wait times.

Saying America has crappy healthcare is absurd.

You're right, our care if excellent. Its our insurance that sucks.

Carry on.

 

[supermike80]

Mexico has their own universal healthcare. They don't need to come here or to Canada for free treatment. The one's who are already here certainly need treatment just like everyone else right now or we all suffer. Start deporting them and suddenly the others just remain in the shadows infecting people.

Can't refuse treatment.  That's how that works--next.

Amnesty will drive them here in droves.  I'm willing to bet eleventy billion dollars many would be more than happy to make out with their corona virus infected friend if it meant amnesty.  

Sometimes people come up with ideas and they just don't think them through.

 

[Da Guru]

Tim,  I am not joking here.  You seem very committed to all the topics you start. Have you though of running for some sort of public office?  You have many ideas that maybe of some interest to some. With the time you spend here you could actually make a difference in people lives in your community. Even if it is just a small amount. 

Here we just argue back and forth between the 25-30 faceless regulars in the PSF. 

I guess you have no interest.

 

[JohnnyU]

1. There are 10-15 million of these people. 

I thought the number was 30 million?

 

[timschochet]

I thought the number was 30 million?

If so it makes it even more vital that we give them some kind of amnesty. Immediately. Otherwise they are a public health threat. 

 

[Da Guru]

If so it makes it even more vital that we give them some kind of amnesty. Immediately. Otherwise they are a public health threat. 

What about all the 150K homeless legal people in LA county who live in huge groups and have no medical access?  They could be Corona incubators and carriers.  That is only LA, think about Seattle and all the other large homeless dwellings.

Does anyone care about them?

 

[timschochet]

What about all the 150K homeless legal people in LA county who live in huge groups and have no medical access?  They could be Corona incubators and carriers.  That is only LA, think about Seattle and all the other large homeless dwellings.

Does anyone care about them?

Yes and the response has been amazing, at least in Los Angeles: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/homeless-housing/story/2020-03-19/coronavirus-homeless-shelter-los-angeles-recreation-centers-pandemic%3f_amp=true

 

[RCon]

If so it makes it even more vital that we give them some kind of amnesty. Immediately. Otherwise they are a public health threat. 

I still haven't seen an argument that amnesty is a necessary component to health care.

 

[Da Guru]

Yes and the response has been amazing, at least in Los Angeles: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/homeless-housing/story/2020-03-19/coronavirus-homeless-shelter-los-angeles-recreation-centers-pandemic%3f_amp=true

That is good.  Why did it take corona though to spark this?

I am involved with a group that helps the homeless in Detroit and see this problem first hand all the time.  So it does mean a lot to me as so often these are the overlooked.

 

[timschochet]

I still haven't seen an argument that amnesty is a necessary component to health care.

They have to feel safe to come in. Telling them “you’re safe for the moment, but in order to treat you properly we have to have a record of you and we can’t guarantee what we might do with those records when this is all over with”- that’s not going to cut it. 

 

[RCon]

Why do there need to be records?  I posted this days ago and got no answer.

For instance, why do we need a person's name or address to provide a test?  Hand the person a test ticket with a confirmation number.  The person could look up the results online or return the next day with the test ticket to get results.  There are definitely ways to accomplish this.

 

[timschochet]

Why do there need to be records?  I posted this days ago and got no answer.

For instance, why do we need a person's name or address to provide a test?  Hand the person a test ticket with a confirmation number.  The person could look up the results online or return the next day with the test ticket to get results.  There are definitely ways to accomplish this.

You’re counting on them to return. Suppose they don’t? 

I don’t see how you do this without some kind of amnesty. 

 

[RCon]

Suggesting they wouldn't return seems odd.  I could understand the suggestion they wouldn't show up once, but seems like once they show up the first time, there would be no reason not to come back.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I don’t want to engage in another argument about the status of the people. Yes they didn’t come here legally. Yes they broke the law coming. No they don’t pay as much taxes as legal citizens. Yes they can be a drain on our system.

So what do we do?  

How does this serve our public health interests? 

If so it makes it even more vital that we give them some kind of amnesty. Immediately. Otherwise they are a public health threat. 

You’re counting on them to return. Suppose they don’t?  

The frustrating thing for those of us who support legal immigration but oppose illegal immigration is that we ask the exact same questions up front - and get vilified for it - that you are now getting around to asking. This is one of the reasons we have legal immigration. Saying the problem is "they're afraid to . . ." fill in the blank. Get tested, see a doctor, fill a prescription, report a crime, testify in court, etc, etc, etc.

That's not the problem - that's the symptom. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

I found this on Facebook, thought it might apply here. Or not.

"Years ago, anthropologist Margaret Mead was asked by a student what she considered to be the first sign of civilization in a culture. The student expected Mead to talk about fishhooks or clay pots or grinding stones.

But no. Mead said that the first sign of civilization in an ancient culture was a femur (thighbone) that had been broken and then healed. Mead explained that in the animal kingdom, if you break your leg, you die. You cannot run from danger, get to the river for a drink or hunt for food. You are meat for prowling beasts. No animal survives a broken leg long enough for the bone to heal.

'A broken femur that has healed is evidence that someone has taken time to stay with the one who fell, has bound up the wound, has carried the person to safety and has tended the person through recovery. Helping someone else through difficulty is where civilization starts', Mead said.

We are at our best when we serve others. Be civilized."

- Ira Byock, The Best Care Possible: A Physician’s Quest to Transform Care Through the End of Life (Avery, 2012)]

(Shared by Elisabeth)

NM. Just got back from a time out and it's been a crazy week to get locked out. Don't need another one.

 

[zoonation]

Yeah, great healthcare if you can actually get in to see doctor.  Hopefully somewhere between 6-10 months if you don't die first.  Universal healthcare is not the answer - unless you want mediocre care and massive wait times.

Saying America has crappy healthcare is absurd.

This is categorically false.  Anyone with an acute condition is seen immediately in Canada.  

I do agree that America has as good or better health care than any other other first world country.  

If you can access it.  

Where America falls woefully short is access and outcomes.

I know access doesn’t factor into your analysis.  But in the rest of the developed world, access is a foundational principle of health care.  And access to quality care in America is, respectfully, crappy.