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Illegal immigration (2 Viewers)

@higgs @Ramblin Wreck @Phase of the Game

Out of courtesy (as opposed to what is usually found in return, which is just ignoring questions and/or pretending to answer while really just diverting from the question at hand), just re-stating that what I posted was my opinion.  Based on almost 45 years of life and trying to take into full context all points of view, but an opinion.

As mentioned, I'm not about to get embroiled in this thread.  Suffice it to say what I believe (as an opinion), is clear to me, and at best disturbing, if not disgusting. But hey, it's just an opinion of some guy on a message board.  

As such, this will indeed be my last post in this thread - something I'd think y'all would be more than happy about.  Enjoy the banter with others, but this pisses me off to be reminded of how base much of our society is, so I'll focus on the bright levity that is the Trumpster Fire thread.

PS - BREITBART? Yeah, that only reinforces my entire points of contention. Enjoy.

 
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Higgs said:
What, where I asked, "What is your argument for not preventing illegal immigration?" and you answered, "you can't"?  That shows me you haven't read much on this and are just lobbing grenades.  Because there are some very easy things we can do.  Number one - if we catch an illegal after crossing the border don't just ####### let them go.

The rest of your post on expanding legal immigration is what I have been advocating for, so we're in agreement there.
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How's that War on Drugs going? Oh yeah economics trumps fences and laws. Just like undocumented immigration. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
1.  "Catch and release" is not a law and it's not Obama's. It's a policy employed by a number of administrations, including Obama's (and Trump's, so far). You want someone to point you to a post that is uninformed or incorrect, there you go.  Literally the next sentence of your post after you made the request.

2.  The "justification" is a practical one. You can't deport people without due process and there's simply not enough detention centers to detain them all.
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Obama instituted the "policy" last year.  Fine, you want to call it "policy" instead of "law", do your thing.  http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/4/obama-reinstates-catch-and-release-policy-illegals/

And Trump signed an Executive Order to end catch and release.  http://www.defenseone.com/politics/2017/01/trump-orders-halt-catch-and-release-theres-catch/134881/

Obviously some logistical problems implementing it, but they are solvable.

 
Koya said:
@higgs @Ramblin Wreck @Phase of the Game

Out of courtesy (as opposed to what is usually found in return, which is just ignoring questions and/or pretending to answer while really just diverting from the question at hand), just re-stating that what I posted was my opinion.  Based on almost 45 years of life and trying to take into full context all points of view, but an opinion.

As mentioned, I'm not about to get embroiled in this thread.  Suffice it to say what I believe (as an opinion), is clear to me, and at best disturbing, if not disgusting. But hey, it's just an opinion of some guy on a message board.  

As such, this will indeed be my last post in this thread - something I'd think y'all would be more than happy about.  Enjoy the banter with others, but this pisses me off to be reminded of how base much of our society is, so I'll focus on the bright levity that is the Trumpster Fire thread.

PS - BREITBART? Yeah, that only reinforces my entire points of contention. Enjoy.
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You have your feet firmly planted in mid air. 

 
Koya said:
@higgs @Ramblin Wreck @Phase of the Game

Out of courtesy (as opposed to what is usually found in return, which is just ignoring questions and/or pretending to answer while really just diverting from the question at hand), just re-stating that what I posted was my opinion.  Based on almost 45 years of life and trying to take into full context all points of view, but an opinion.

As mentioned, I'm not about to get embroiled in this thread.  Suffice it to say what I believe (as an opinion), is clear to me, and at best disturbing, if not disgusting. But hey, it's just an opinion of some guy on a message board.  

As such, this will indeed be my last post in this thread - something I'd think y'all would be more than happy about.  Enjoy the banter with others, but this pisses me off to be reminded of how base much of our society is, so I'll focus on the bright levity that is the Trumpster Fire thread.

PS - BREITBART? Yeah, that only reinforces my entire points of contention. Enjoy.
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For 45 years you would think you've learned by now to stop lumping people into a group of your choice for the sole purpose of attacking and insulting them.  As I said an hour ago it's pretty weird you type a long diatribe just to tell us this thread doesn't interest you.  One click could have solved that.  You just couldn't resist throwing out more insults. It's your only debate technique. 

 
NCCommish said:
Do you really see anyone here pretending what this guy did wasn't heinous? Do you really think those of us on the other side of the immigration issue don't care about this poor girl because we think we need an actual workable solution to undocumented workers?
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I'm sure you guys care, but protecting her and future hers is just not "worth it" to you. 

 
Chaka said:
Haven't gone anywhere guy. Just recognize your game and calling you on it.
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Well, since you and others continue to mischaracterize my game, let me sum it up for you: 

- More legal immigration and less illegal immigration.

- End catch and release

- Pass comprehensive immigration reform and allow amnesty to the illegals who have been here, contributed, and had a clean record.

- Illegal immigrants that are convicted of a felony serve their sentence and are then deported.  If they attempt to return to the US, mandatory 10 year sentence (something akin to Kate's Law that Congress rejected).

- Increase border security in a sensible, effective manner.

Now, what would you like to call me on?

 
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Higgs said:
Obama instituted the "policy" last year.  Fine, you want to call it "policy" instead of "law", do your thing.  http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/4/obama-reinstates-catch-and-release-policy-illegals/

And Trump signed an Executive Order to end catch and release.  http://www.defenseone.com/politics/2017/01/trump-orders-halt-catch-and-release-theres-catch/134881/

Obviously some logistical problems implementing it, but they are solvable.
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No, it's a historical policy employed by a number of administrations in various forms. That's what "reinstates" means. And a law and a policy are totally different things. That's not "my thing," that's an immutable fact.

As for the "logistical problems," of course they're solvable. You just have to throw more money at it, and that money has to come from somewhere.  The article you linked to actually explains this.  Health care is solvable too, if you're willing to throw enough money at it.  Saying you can solve something without explaining how you're gonna pay for it is totally meaningless. That's why we're still doing it despite Trump's order. Your original question was a request for a justification of catch and release; the "justification" is that unless you're willing to cut spending elsewhere or raise taxes, we don't have a choice.

 
TobiasFunke said:
No, it's a historical policy employed by a number of administrations in various forms. That's what "reinstates" means. And a law and a policy are totally different things. That's not "my thing," that's an immutable fact.

As for the "logistical problems," of course they're solvable. You just have to throw more money at it, and that money has to come from somewhere.  The article you linked to actually explains this.  Health care is solvable too, if you're willing to throw enough money at it.  Saying you can solve something without explaining how you're gonna pay for it is totally meaningless. That's why we're still doing it despite Trump's order. Your original question was a request for a justification of catch and release; the "justification" is that unless you're willing to cut spending elsewhere or raise taxes, we don't have a choice.
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Fair enough.  I dot agree with it, but I respect it.

 
Buddy Ball 2K3 said:
IMO that is because we keep voting in the same politicians over and over and over and expect things to change. I am not a Trump guy but I do love that both the establishment republicans and dems hate him.
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I have deep disdain for establishment politicians of all stripes. But Trump and his Administration are, amazingly, actually far worse than the establishment is.

 
Higgs said:
Well, since you and others continue to mischaracterize my game, let me sum it up for you: 

- More legal immigration and less illegal immigration.

- End catch and release

- Pass comprehensive immigration reform and allow amnesty to the illegals who have been here, contributed, and had a clean record.

- Illegal immigrants that are convicted of a felony serve their sentence and are then deported.  If they attempt to return to the US, mandatory 10 year sentence (something akin to Kate's Law that Congress rejected).

- Increase border security in a sensible, effective manner.

Now, what would you like to call me on?
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That isn't an unreasonable set of suggestions.

It also bears almost no resemblance to what Trump campaigned on or has proposed so far.

 
RBM said:
I'm sure you guys care, but protecting her and future hers is just not "worth it" to you. 
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It's not stoppable. You know this. The economic lure is to huge. People will find a way.

Crime rates for immigrants are hard to separate into who was documented and who wasn't. But still they are half as likely to be  a involved in crime as natural born citizens. And when we look at groups of immigrants that are very likely to be undocumented, those men with less than a high school education who have virtually no chance to be here legally, they are one tenth as likely as an American male with no diploma to be involved in.crime. These guys didn't rape her because they were undocumented they raped her because they are garbage people. And they are still more an exception than a rule.

 
So...what we really need is an "illegal alien" multiplier in our sentencing guidelines.

Regular rapist? 15 years.

Illegal alien rapist? 15 x 1.5 years.

Amirite?

:tongueincheek:

 
The oh my God I'm all of the sudden super interested in rape crowd jumping on board because their simple minds think it furthers some simpleton agenda is...special.

And to think, they could have been somewhere else raping a non-American girl nobody gaf about. <sigh>

 
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RBM said:
I'm sure you guys care, but protecting her and future hers is just not "worth it" to you. 
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Preventing extremely rare and exceedingly unpredictable events is very difficult and is therefore expensive and/or requires taking drastic actions that have unintended consequences. And even then the solution may not be foolproof.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
That isn't an unreasonable set of suggestions.

It also bears almost no resemblance to what Trump campaigned on or has proposed so far.
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It also requires a significant increase in spending, which as I pointed out before is always the problem. Increasing border security, for example, costs money. Doing so effectively would cost an astronomical amount of money given the length and topography of the border, the many ways to enter the country and the strong motivation many have to do so.

Is it worth it considering the fact that illegal immigrants are, on average, more peaceful and law-abiding once they are here than citizens, and according to most economists they are a net benefit to us economically?  That's the actual question.

This issue BTW is a great example of why these things are always a lot more complicated and difficult than most people (including Donald Trump) think.

 
TobiasFunke said:
It also requires a significant increase in spending, which as I pointed out before is always the problem. Increasing border security, for example, costs money. Doing so effectively would cost an astronomical amount of money given the length and topography of the border, the many ways to enter the country and the strong motivation many have to do so.

Is it worth it considering the fact that illegal immigrants are, on average, more peaceful and law-abiding once they are here than citizens, and according to most economists they are a net benefit to us economically?  That's the actual question.

This issue BTW is a great example of why these things are always a lot more complicated and difficult than most people (including Donald Trump) think.
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Who could have predicted that complicated policy problems are complicated?!?!?!???!!

 
Andy Dufresne said:
So...what we really need is an "illegal alien" multiplier in our sentencing guidelines.

Regular rapist? 15 years.

Illegal alien rapist? 15 x 1.5 years.

Amirite?

:tongueincheek:
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Like "hate crimes"  Beat a person to near death and get 10 years.  Beat a person to near death while yelling a slur and get 25 years.

 
TIM: the founding fathers had the right idea on this issue

RA: actually they disagreed completely, you're misrepresenting what they believed

TIM: YEA BUT THEY ALSO HAD SLAVES.  IF YOU DISTORT THEIR IDEAS AND CREATE THIS VAGUE NOTION OF 'SPIRIT OF IDEAS' THEN THEY SUPPORT ME

 
Heartening to see rightys engaging passionately on a subject they believe in.

I'd be looking for any subject other than the president to talk about as well.

 
Hey, the Reagan administration and its actions in El Salvador eventually created the gang/crime culture in El Salvador.  One of the rapists is El Salvadorian.  

The dots are easy to connect, fellas.  

 
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Higgs said:
Well, since you and others continue to mischaracterize my game, let me sum it up for you: 

- More legal immigration and less illegal immigration.

- End catch and release

- Pass comprehensive immigration reform and allow amnesty to the illegals who have been here, contributed, and had a clean record.

- Illegal immigrants that are convicted of a felony serve their sentence and are then deported.  If they attempt to return to the US, mandatory 10 year sentence (something akin to Kate's Law that Congress rejected).

- Increase border security in a sensible, effective manner.

Now, what would you like to call me on?
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You have a lot of past posts contradicting this list.

Your boy Trump disagrees with you on most of this list.

We've seen you defend your ideas with a lot of nonsense like assuming anyone who thinks building a huge-### wall along the entire USA/Mexico border is a bad idea is opposed to all forms of border security.

Your claim of wanting to grant amnesty to undocumented persons here who aren't criminals is contradictory to the many times in this thread you've asked if preventing people from crossing the border would have prevented crimes.

You don't seem to understand the history of "catch and release" and why it exists.

Use of nebulous terms like "sensible, effective manner" work well in campaign mode but aren't policy or law.  They are not specific enough, given there's a lot of disagreement over what is "sensible" and "effective" when it comes to border security - it's fair to say we're not all on the same page on building a wall and that Mexico will pay for it, for example.

Other than that, looks pretty solid.

 
So here's a fairly dull (relative to the usual Trump stuff) story about the Secret Service putting in an expanded budget request for extra expenses incurred due to the unusual and travel-heavy lifestyle of the Trump family.  The request was denied by Trump's OMB director, Mick Mulvaney.

You should read the whole article, which makes a number of interesting points, including the fact that the Secret Service expenditures might end up back in the Trump family's pockets anyway.  But why am I posting it here?  From the article:

A person familiar with internal Secret Service budget discussions said the requests for additional funding, prepared in late February, were rejected by the Office of Management and Budget, an arm of the White House. That means the agency will likely have to divert other spending to handle the additional burden. While best known for protecting the president, Secret Service agents also investigate cybercrimes, counterfeit-money operations and cases involving missing and exploited minors.
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If Trump supporters really care about the welfare of children, you could call your congressman and/or the White House and demand that OMB approve an expanded budget, or that the Trump family curtail their lifestyles a bit to help rein in those costs, so the secret service has more resources available to help missing and exploited children.  And if the Trump White House actually cared they could easily do so (or they could even donate some of their vast wealth to help non-profits engaged in similar efforts as a way of compensating for Secret Service having to devote their resources to weekly trips to Palm Beach and to securing Trump Tower).

I'd bet a lot of money that none of that will happen, though.

 
timschochet said:
I will continue to repeat this because people refuse to accept it: every study that has ever been done on this subject shows that undocumented immigrants commit LESS violent crimes, per percentage, than American citizens do. As awful as these stories are, they are anecdotes, not representative of how undocumented people act, and they should not be used as a reason for policy.
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I'm interested in this data. Can you share a link? thanks

 
TobiasFunke said:
So here's a fairly dull (relative to the usual Trump stuff) story about the Secret Service putting in an expanded budget request for extra expenses incurred due to the unusual and travel-heavy lifestyle of the Trump family.  The request was denied by Trump's OMB director, Mick Mulvaney.

You should read the whole article, which makes a number of interesting points, including the fact that the Secret Service expenditures might end up back in the Trump family's pockets anyway.  But why am I posting it here?  From the article:

If Trump supporters really care about the welfare of children, you could call your congressman and/or the White House and demand that OMB approve an expanded budget, or that the Trump family curtail their lifestyles a bit to help rein in those costs, so the secret service has more resources available to help missing and exploited children.  And if the Trump White House actually cared they could easily do so (or they could even donate some of their vast wealth to help non-profits engaged in similar efforts as a way of compensating for Secret Service having to devote their resources to weekly trips to Palm Beach and to securing Trump Tower).

I'd bet a lot of money that none of that will happen, though.
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Hmmmm...where did they get the money for all of obamas trips?

 
jerry jones said:
Hmmmm...where did they get the money for all of obamas trips?
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Hmmmm Obama didn't blow through 3 million pretty much every weekend. Not to mention have his wife live in a different city in a building which wasn't a private residence. And have grown kids globetrotting around that also require details. 

Did you really put any thought into that post?

 
jerry jones said:
Hmmmm...where did they get the money for all of obamas trips?
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Out of the existing Secret Service budget.  The request for $60 million is for additional costs associated with the Trump family's extensive travel and living arrangements. Because OMB won't grant it and the Trump family apparently won't adjust their extensive travel and unorthodox living arrangements the Secret Service will have to provide security for the First Family out of their existing budget, which means less money for stuff like investigations into missing and exploited minors.

I thought the article was pretty clear about all this stuff. Did you not read it?

 
timschochet said:
I will continue to repeat this because people refuse to accept it: every study that has ever been done on this subject shows that undocumented immigrants commit LESS violent crimes, per percentage, than American citizens do. As awful as these stories are, they are anecdotes, not representative of how undocumented people act, and they should not be used as a reason for policy.
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Violent crimes should be a benefit for only legal American citizens!

but still, if you have no right to be here, there shouldn't be any tolerance for any criminal activity let alone violent crimes.

you spouting off some study doesn't help anyone who had someone close to them raped or worse, when it could have (should have) been prevented.

 
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