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Illegal immigration (1 Viewer)

TobiasFunke said:
Out of the existing Secret Service budget.  The request for $60 million is for additional costs associated with the Trump family's extensive travel and living arrangements. Because OMB won't grant it and the Trump family apparently won't adjust their extensive travel and unorthodox living arrangements the Secret Service will have to provide security for the First Family out of their existing budget, which means less money for stuff like investigations into missing and exploited minors.

I thought the article was pretty clear about all this stuff. Did you not read it?
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Yes I read it, I learned that their budget was partly taken up by installing all the security equipment and that rental property in New York is expensive.

maybe we should have elected a person from a less expensive locale 

 I also read a GAO report about one 4 day trip in 2013 that Obama took at a cost of 3.8 million. For 4 days.....

 
NCCommish said:
Hmmmm Obama didn't blow through 3 million pretty much every weekend. Not to mention have his wife live in a different city in a building which wasn't a private residence. And have grown kids globetrotting around that also require details. 

Did you really put any thought into that post?
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Estimated Major Costs Associated with the President’s February 15 – 18, 2013 Trip to Illinois

and Florida (Dollars in thousands)

Cost of Government Per Diem and other
Aircraft/Boats Used related expensesa Total

Department of Defense $2,763.2 $76 $2,839.2

Department of Homeland Security $438.3

$328.3

$766.7 

sorry im not good at posting this stuff....basically a GAO report on Obama 4 day trip....$3.8 million

so....for THIS particular weekend yes he did

 
jerry jones said:
Yes I read it, I learned that their budget was partly taken up by installing all the security equipment and that rental property in New York is expensive.

maybe we should have elected a person from a less expensive locale 

 I also read a GAO report about one 4 day trip in 2013 that Obama took at a cost of 3.8 million. For 4 days.....
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And Trump takes that trip Almost every weekend. Almost every weekend. Melania costs more than that every week. Every week.

Your outrage seems pretty selective.

 
NCCommish said:
Hmmmm Obama didn't blow through 3 million pretty much every weekend. Not to mention have his wife live in a different city in a building which wasn't a private residence. And have grown kids globetrotting around that also require details. 

Did you really put any thought into that post?
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Rhetorical question, right?

 
NCCommish said:
Donnie does know he can use Camp Davis right?
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And if he can't find that place, he could always go to Camp David.

 
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jerry jones said:
Yes I read it, I learned that their budget was partly taken up by installing all the security equipment and that rental property in New York is expensive.

maybe we should have elected a person from a less expensive locale 

 I also read a GAO report about one 4 day trip in 2013 that Obama took at a cost of 3.8 million. For 4 days.....
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Read this. Then reconsider your earlier posts. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/22/trumps-family-trips-cost-taxpayers-nearly-as-much-in-a-month-as-obamas-cost-in-a-whole-year/#2147ce9e36e4

 
jerry jones said:
But I'm not outraged...?

just pointing out the hypocrisy out there
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It would be hypocrisy if Obama went on a trip every week. He didn't. You know what hypocrisy is? Complaining about the few times a year Obama went golfing and then going golfing all the time yourself. Like Trump.

 
NCCommish said:
It would be hypocrisy if Obama went on a trip every week. He didn't. You know what hypocrisy is? Complaining about the few times a year Obama went golfing and then going golfing all the time yourself. Like Trump.
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So....the various news stories that surface about him also working are made up?

i think trumps argument was Obama going on vacation all the time.

the only issue I had with Obama vacations were the ones when some sort of tragedy also occurred and the news would show him still golfing instead of putting on the presidential act.

i think there's enough money wasted on our government that these trips to Florida don't concern me...(yet) 

im just tired of everyone trying to make a mountain out of every molehill..sometimes there are just molehills

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Read this. Then reconsider your earlier posts. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/02/22/trumps-family-trips-cost-taxpayers-nearly-as-much-in-a-month-as-obamas-cost-in-a-whole-year/#2147ce9e36e4
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What would I reconsider? I didn't defend trumps cost, or justify it (if it came across that way, sorry not my intent) 

i also don't need to reconsider pointing out a 4 day trip for Obama, again not defending or criticizing.

just pointing out some relevant facts 

 
What kind of economic boon does supporting 17 and 18 year old Guatemalan immigrants with 9th grade education levels provide the country?

 
timschochet said:
No. 

Im tired of posting the same stuff. Look it up for yourself. It's all out there. 
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We're tired of you posting the same stuff too, especially when it's irrelevant- most of these "studies" refer to all immigrants, not specifically illegals (which is obviously extremely difficult to get accurate data on).

 
jonessed said:
What kind of economic boon does supporting 17 and 18 year old Guatemalan immigrants with 9th grade education levels provide the country?
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There are some Freshman soccer teams that are now lights out...helps with the snack shack at the High School...

 
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jerry jones said:
What would I reconsider? I didn't defend trumps cost, or justify it (if it came across that way, sorry not my intent) 

i also don't need to reconsider pointing out a 4 day trip for Obama, again not defending or criticizing.

just pointing out some relevant facts 
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We were discussing the fact that the Secret Service budget for protecting the POTUS and the other Trumps is literally busting the Secret Service budget and you brought up that one time President Obama had a very expensive four day trip, and you describe that as a "relevant fact"?

When you consider that Trump is on pace to cost taxpayers more in travel costs in a single year than Obama did in eight, that doesn't seem particularly relevant. 

Or when you consider that trips to his Florida golf resort or other Trump properties actually constitute a direct transfer of taxpayer dollars into properties he owns or owns an interest in. 

 
humpback said:
We're tired of you posting the same stuff too, especially when it's irrelevant- most of these "studies" refer to all immigrants, not specifically illegals (which is obviously extremely difficult to get accurate data on).
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Which is why we should definitely assume they are a threat to public safety, I mean...look at these headlines.

 
MaxThreshold said:
Yep.  Those who provide sanctuary and cover for illegals will have a lot to answer for when this kind of stuff happens.
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Just like gun owners when a nut job shoots up a movie theater????

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
We were discussing the fact that the Secret Service budget for protecting the POTUS and the other Trumps is literally busting the Secret Service budget and you brought up that one time President Obama had a very expensive four day trip, and you describe that as a "relevant fact"?

When you consider that Trump is on pace to cost taxpayers more in travel costs in a single year than Obama did in eight, that doesn't seem particularly relevant. 

Or when you consider that trips to his Florida golf resort or other Trump properties actually constitute a direct transfer of taxpayer dollars into properties he owns or owns an interest in. 
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Ah yes....profiting off the presidency.

way to squeeze that in!!

 
Hard data on undocumented immigrants and crime is difficult to find. They are undocumented, after all.

But some reasonable inference isn't difficult.

Pew estimates that the number of illegal immigrants in the US peaked in 2009 at approximately 12 million, which was roughly double the amount that were in the country in 1995. Chart

Over that same time, crime rates (including both violent and property crimes) were dropping sharply. Chart 2

So while the population of illegal immigrants was doubling, crime rates were almost being cut in half. That doesn't prove anything conclusively--we are still only talking about 2-4% of the US population.

But if the majority, or even a sizable minority, of illegal immigrants were career criminals you wouldn't expect to see crime drop as sharply as it has while their population in the country doubled.

Pew's research points out that while the overall illegal immigrant population in the US has been basically steady over the last several years, illegal immigrant populations dropped in seven states (AL, CA, GA, IL, KS, NV, & SC) and rose in five states (LA, MA, NJ, PA, VA, & WA) from 2009 to 2014. Looking at the changes in violent crime rates for those states with decreasing illegal immigrant populations, they fell by an average of 16% during that time frame, while overall violent crime rates in the US fell by 13%. But the average violent crime rate in states seeing net increases in illegal immigrant populations fell by 17%.

Again, that doesn't necessarily prove anything, but if illegal immigrants were significantly more prone to violent crime than other immigrants or US-born persons, you would expect to see a very different result.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Hard data on undocumented immigrants and crime is difficult to find. They are undocumented, after all.

But some reasonable inference isn't difficult.

Pew estimates that the number of illegal immigrants in the US peaked in 2009 at approximately 12 million, which was roughly double the amount that were in the country in 1995. Chart

Over that same time, crime rates (including both violent and property crimes) were dropping sharply. Chart 2

So while the population of illegal immigrants was doubling, crime rates were almost being cut in half. That doesn't prove anything conclusively--we are still only talking about 2-4% of the US population.

But if the majority, or even a sizable minority, of illegal immigrants were career criminals you wouldn't expect to see crime drop as sharply as it has while their population in the country doubled.

Pew's research points out that while the overall illegal immigrant population in the US has been basically steady over the last several years, illegal immigrant populations dropped in seven states (AL, CA, GA, IL, KS, NV, & SC) and rose in five states (LA, MA, NJ, PA, VA, & WA) from 2009 to 2014. Looking at the changes in violent crime rates for those states with decreasing illegal immigrant populations, they fell by an average of 16% during that time frame, while overall violent crime rates in the US fell by 13%. But the average violent crime rate in states seeing net increases in illegal immigrant populations fell by 17%.

Again, that doesn't necessarily prove anything, but if illegal immigrants were significantly more prone to violent crime than other immigrants or US-born persons, you would expect to see a very different result.
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So illegal immigrants commit crimes you say......so by removing said illegal "criminal" immigrants I'm going to make a stretch here and say that crime would fall?

 
timschochet said:
It isn't though. It's the same maddening illogic these sorts have made for years: 

of course they commit more crimes! I don't care what the statistics show, they commit more crimes because they are ILLEGAL! If they weren't here there'd be less crimes! 
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Should a person driving drunk going the speed limit be held accountable if another car ran a red light and the driver was killed?

It happened where I live a few years ago.  The person driving drunk was going the speed limit and had a green light, another car ran a red light and the driver was killed. The person driving drunk was convicted of manslaughter because the judge said "you should never have been on the road"

Same thing is going to happen every time an illegal commit a crime like this. People will say "Well they should never have been here"

 
Da Guru said:
Should a person driving drunk going the speed limit be held accountable if another car ran a red light and the driver was killed?

It happened where I live a few years ago.  The person driving drunk was going the speed limit and had a green light, another car ran a red light and the driver was killed. The person driving drunk was convicted of manslaughter because the judge said "you should never have been on the road"

Same thing is going to happen every time an illegal commit a crime like this. People will say "Well they should never have been here"
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My answer to your question is yes. But I think it is incredibly wrong, silly, and irresponsible to compare an undocumented alien to a drunk driver. 

 
timschochet said:
My answer to your question is yes. But I think it is incredibly wrong, silly, and irresponsible to compare an undocumented alien to a drunk driver. 
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Not really...Comparing an illegal who committed a crime. The court of public opinion will say "Why was he/she in the country illegally to begin with?" If they were not here the crime would never have happened.  The same if that person chose not to hit the road while drunk. Not saying it is right.

They are not looking at %

 
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humpback said:
In your opinion, which is more important?
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Rates are more important. More people equals more incidents of crime. But if the new people aren't actually committing more crimes on average, then that isn't really an issue. That is a general statement.

The bottom line is that the evidence doesn't support crime or criminal behavior as a rational justification for changing policies in terms of how we deal with our immigration situation. There may be other policy reasons for changing approach. Those should be debated on their merits.

 
Da Guru said:
Should a person driving drunk going the speed limit be held accountable if another car ran a red light and the driver was killed?

It happened where I live a few years ago.  The person driving drunk was going the speed limit and had a green light, another car ran a red light and the driver was killed. The person driving drunk was convicted of manslaughter because the judge said "you should never have been on the road"

Same thing is going to happen every time an illegal commit a crime like this. People will say "Well they should never have been here"
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The judge presented a highly illogical argument. That verdict sucks.

 
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RedmondLonghorn said:
Rates are more important. More people equals more incidents of crime. But if the new people aren't actually committing more crimes on average, then that isn't really an issue. That is a general statement.

The bottom line is that the evidence doesn't support crime or criminal behavior as a rational justification for changing policies in terms of how we deal with our immigration situation. There may be other policy reasons for changing approach. Those should be debated on their merits.
Click to expand...
I disagree, and I'd bet that the victims and their loved ones would as well.  :shrug:

 
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