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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (7 Viewers)

I've heard he's middle of the road.

Either way bump Trey Flowers and Geneo Grissom. They might sign Chris Long but I doubt it.

Feel like two seconds means they are gonna draft a wr - Cajuste plz

 
With Butler, Collins and Hightower needing extensions after next season, Jones was the guy least likely to re-sign.  Getting a player with upside on the offensive line and a second round pick plus cap space is a pretty good trade for the Pats.  After his bizarre synthetic weed episode, I'm sure the Pats were hesitant to commit to a big contract next year.

 
Butler is actually a RFA till 2018. Doesn't get paid for one more year, but they really should look to extend him. Was the most price efficient player in the league last year.

 
The other thing to consider is that this draft is loaded with DL prospects. The Pats now have 4 picks in the 2nd/3rd rounds and can roll the dice on more than one guy, if they want.

 
Haven't really followed the draft stuff much. Where is Braxton Miller slated to go? He seems like a target for NE. Will he last until the Pats finally get to pick?

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
To date in the NFL, not at all. Good chance he wouldn't have even started in AZ in 2016. Hasn't shown much since breaking his leg his rookie season. Can't stay healthy and repeatedly beaten out.
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He can't be worse than what the Pats trotted out there at guard this season.  

 
Craig_MiamiFL said:
To date in the NFL, not at all. Good chance he wouldn't have even started in AZ in 2016. Hasn't shown much since breaking his leg his rookie season. Can't stay healthy and repeatedly beaten out.
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So the Patriots give up a good young DE for a 1st round bust OG, about $5 mil in cap space, and a late second round pick. OTOH it was likely he would play in NE for one year and would leave for, at best, a 3rd round comp pick. It's possible that Dante Scarnecchia can coach Cooper up into a useful lineman. If he does, Cooper is likely to be too expensive to sign next year too.  

There's a "long term benefit" argument for the trade from a Patriots viewpoint, but for 2016 it looks like a step backwards.

 
Insomniac said:
So the Patriots give up a good young DE for a 1st round bust OG, about $5 mil in cap space, and a late second round pick. OTOH it was likely he would play in NE for one year and would leave for, at best, a 3rd round comp pick. It's possible that Dante Scarnecchia can coach Cooper up into a useful lineman. If he does, Cooper is likely to be too expensive to sign next year too.  

There's a "long term benefit" argument for the trade from a Patriots viewpoint, but for 2016 it looks like a step backwards.
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Except the Pats backup for Jones (Jabaal Sheard) actually outplayed Jones much of last season.  In fact, Sheard had more snaps than Chandler Jones in the playoffs. That should tell you something.

 
Workhorse said:
Except the Pats backup for Jones (Jabaal Sheard) actually outplayed Jones much of last season.  In fact, Sheard had more snaps than Chandler Jones in the playoffs. That should tell you something.
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IMO the Patriots would be better off with both Sheard and Jones. I'm sure they'll make some moves to beef up the DL depth.

 
I agree that the Pats would be better with two elite talents like Jones and Sheard, but I don't think the deal was bad at all, they needed to move him and they got about as much as you could ask for in return.

A first round INTERIOR linemen who has had practically no real opportunity to show whether he is actually good or not. Was considered one of the best guard prospects ever. He heldout to begin his rookie season and eventually caved. Broke his leg that preseason. Came back the following season (2014 season) less than 100%, after having his knee drained in 2014 he suffered a serious turf toe injury. Lost his job before the 2014 season started. Week 14 of 2014 season he gets called up due to injuries on the line, promptly breaks his wrist. He then starts the first 10 games of the 2015 season before hurting his knee - said to have been average.

Basically, he was injured his first two seasons with Bruce Arians as his coach. 

They got potentially a steal at a position of need and a 2nd rounder. Its unlikely with Jones contract they would have been able to move him for more than a mid-late second, getting a throw in like Cooper is potentially huge.

 
Seems the carrot was the 2nd round pick. Wonder if they would have made this deal if they still owned a 1st round pick.

If they're eyeing players in the second round they could have easily traded back and acquired more picks ... and kept Jones to play out his current deal.

 
So Brady takes a discount deal to free up cap space and provide his team with more ammo to build around him.

The Patriots really don't have many (any?) high priced superstars on the roster.

How do they not have a TON of cap space?

Who is getting paid?

 
Big doings today...not surprised Jones got dealt...the Pats have a massive free agent class coming up next year and I just didn't see Jones getting resigned (especially after the weed debacle)...not with Hightower, Collins and Butler up...with that being the case the decision was to get something for him now instead of letting him walk for a 2018 comp pick...the #2 gives them two 2's and two 3's to go along with seven other picks...it's real important they hit on some of those because cap space will be tight next year and adding good cheap talent would be very helpful...I like rolling the dice on Cooper...he has been a major disappointment but he's a former #7 pick and hopefully a change of scenery and some time with Dante rejuvenates him...between him, Stork, Andrews, Mason, Jackson, Kline there is some potential on the interior although still obvious questions...losing Jones is tough...pass-rushing is at a premium in this league and that's what he does best...that being said he is going to command huge $ and his tendency to disappear at times makes me nervous as far as giving him that type of money...hopefully Sheard can replace him as a starter and some form of Long/Grissom/Flowers/draft pick can get it done as back-ups/rotation guys...as long as the Pats extend Hightower/Collins/Butler I am fully onboard with this deal... 

 
Uh they had 17million in space before they signed a couple dudes. After they trade Chandler Jones they were back up to 17million. Depending on the Chris Long deal they should still have plenty of money to go after some dudes and sign some picks.

If Amendola takes a cut or restructures they should free up another mil or two.

I think they've managed this off season really well.

 
They must like Cooper a lot ... or saw a flaw with Jones to want to make this move.

Their Achilles heal on defense was 3rd down.

Way too many times they gave up a long 3rd down due to lack of a pass rush. 

After being bounced from the playoffs by a team with elite pass rushers ... and then watching that same pass rush be the reason that team won the superbowl, you'd think they might want to emulate.

Maybe Easley can figure out how to stay healthy and provide disruption from the interior .... ala Aaron Donald.

 
GordonGekko said:
Jonathan Cooper is a throw in. Hope Pats fans can come to that realization without coming up in arms about it all. Jones got moved for what will be a very late 2nd round pick.

Cooper struggles to pick up the playbook and, at NFL game speed, has shown an alarming deterioration of his fundamentals. His hands are slow and poor. His balance, leverage concepts and footwork are atrocious at the NFL level. You cannot coach up balance. Younger players can push through with more athleticism, veterans when they lose a step, learn to chew up space with experience, technique and guile. That's where Cooper starts to look like a bad bet to a worse one, he's not showing the technique or basic concepts/fundamental core ability to one day shade for losing a step as most players do.

Centers have a vast amount of responsibility. That situation compounds when you are playing a young QB1 ( Garropolo for the first four games). That situation compounds again when you have a guard who isn't reliable. This isn't just about Cooper's limitations, its his total impact across the line. Lines are units, the weak link creates a tax situation for the other players, creating negative trade off situations.

Part of the equation is also the esteem that the Patriots front office ( i.e. Belichick) has in Jamie Collins. Which is a plus minus situation. Collins is a very good player, but he's not a player you game plan for as an opposing offense. Collins simply checks off all the laundry list of things that Belichick wants his linebackers to do without being told to do it.

IF this trade spurs anything, it shouldn't be about Chandler Jones, it should be about the bang up job that Steve Keim has done in Arizona the past few years. Belichick jettisoned the one edge player that other opposing offenses had to account for and game plan around. Given unit dependency, he's also hurt Collins, Hightower, Butler and all because Jones could set the edge for the Patriots.

Basic Walsh theory - The team that can consistently generate a pass rush in the 4th quarter is the team most likely to win and consistently win. Think about that. when most people think of the great Bill Walsh, they think offense, they think West Coast Offense, but Walsh never wavered from an elite pass rush being a priority in overall team success.

If Pats fans want to believe that Belichick didn't lose this trade, then so be it, but Steve Keim won it. The Patriots, esp taking on the completely shot Chris Long, are worse after the trade instead of better.
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Pats certainly took a step backward for 2016 ... but they look beyond that.

Wouldn't shock me to see them trade the 2nd round pick for a 2017 pick. It's just what they do.

 
Here's the top 5 $ earners on the Pats roster. 


Tom Brady


QB


38


16


2 yr$41,000,000


$20,500,000


$28,000,000


2020


Nate Solder


LT


27


5


2 yr$20,062,000


$10,031,000


$19,938,000


2018


Devin McCourty


FS


28


6


5 yr$47,500,000


$9,500,000


$28,500,000


2020


Rob Gronkowski


TE


26


6


6 yr$54,000,000


$9,000,000


$12,920,000


2020


Jabaal Sheard


DE


26


5


2 yr$11,000,000


$5,500,000


$5,500,000


2017



All other Patriots avg. $4.5m and below.

Compared to other teams (with a QB):

ARZ


PLAYER (85)


POS.


AGE


EXP.


CONTRACT TERMS


AVG. SALARY


GUARANTEED


EXPIRES


Carson Palmer


QB


36


13


3 yr$49,500,000


$16,500,000


$20,500,000


2018


Patrick Peterson


CB


25


5


5 yr$70,050,000


$14,010,000


$47,368,114


2021


Calais Campbell


DE


29


8


5 yr$55,000,000


$11,000,000


$31,000,000


2017


Larry Fitzgerald


WR


32


12


2 yr$22,000,000


$11,000,000


$22,000,000


2017


Mike Iupati


G


28


6


5 yr$40,000,000


$8,000,000


$22,500,000


2020



SEA (6 at $10m and above)


Russell Wilson


QB


27


4


4 yr$87,600,000


$21,900,000


$61,542,000


2020


Richard Sherman


CB


27


5


4 yr$56,000,000


$14,000,000


$40,000,000


2019


Marshawn Lynch


RB


29


9


2 yr$24,000,000


$12,000,000


$12,000,000


2018


Bobby Wagner


ILB


25


4


4 yr$43,000,000


$10,750,000


$21,977,427


2020


Earl Thomas


FS


26


6


4 yr$40,000,000


$10,000,000


$25,725,000


2019


Jimmy Graham


TE


29


6


4 yr$40,000,000


$10,000,000


$20,900,000


2018



Just seems like the Pats should have a TON more space under the cap than $17m.

 
GordonGekko said:
Jonathan Cooper is a throw in. Hope Pats fans can come to that realization without coming up in arms about it all. Jones got moved for what will be a very late 2nd round pick.

Cooper struggles to pick up the playbook and, at NFL game speed, has shown an alarming deterioration of his fundamentals. His hands are slow and poor. His balance, leverage concepts and footwork are atrocious at the NFL level. You cannot coach up balance. Younger players can push through with more athleticism, veterans when they lose a step, learn to chew up space with experience, technique and guile. That's where Cooper starts to look like a bad bet to a worse one, he's not showing the technique or basic concepts/fundamental core ability to one day shade for losing a step as most players do.

Centers have a vast amount of responsibility. That situation compounds when you are playing a young QB1 ( Garropolo for the first four games). That situation compounds again when you have a guard who isn't reliable. This isn't just about Cooper's limitations, its his total impact across the line. Lines are units, the weak link creates a tax situation for the other players, creating negative trade off situations.

Part of the equation is also the esteem that the Patriots front office ( i.e. Belichick) has in Jamie Collins. Which is a plus minus situation. Collins is a very good player, but he's not a player you game plan for as an opposing offense. Collins simply checks off all the laundry list of things that Belichick wants his linebackers to do without being told to do it.

IF this trade spurs anything, it shouldn't be about Chandler Jones, it should be about the bang up job that Steve Keim has done in Arizona the past few years. Belichick jettisoned the one edge player that other opposing offenses had to account for and game plan around. Given unit dependency, he's also hurt Collins, Hightower, Butler and all because Jones could set the edge for the Patriots.

Basic Walsh theory - The team that can consistently generate a pass rush in the 4th quarter is the team most likely to win and consistently win. Think about that. when most people think of the great Bill Walsh, they think offense, they think West Coast Offense, but Walsh never wavered from an elite pass rush being a priority in overall team success.

If Pats fans want to believe that Belichick didn't lose this trade, then so be it, but Steve Keim won it. The Patriots, esp taking on the completely shot Chris Long, are worse after the trade instead of better.
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You have some good points but this is very short-termed thinking...there is a reason BB has kept this team as a title contender for over 15 years...one of them is he moves players a year early rather than a year late...I don't think there's a Patriot fan who says losing Jones won't hurt them this year (or saying this is a bad move by the Cards)...it has the potential to sting a little unless Grissom and/or Flowers develop quickly...that being said Jones was not coming back and I would be shocked if he is not vastly overpaid next offseason...while he is very good he does disappear and I don't see him being worth what the market will pay him...as for Collins I think you are selling him very short...he is a three down athletic freak...you say he checks off the laundry list like it's a bad thing but why wouldn't BB want a LB that does everything his defense requires...look at BB's titles whether it is with the Pats and Giants and I don't think it's a fluke that every single ring was won with a high-quality LB unit...these type of moves are par for the course with the Pats...not everyone of them is a winner but it is this philosophy that has put them on a run that just isn't supposed to happen in the salary-cap era...

 
GordonGekko said:
Jonathan Cooper is a throw in. Hope Pats fans can come to that realization without coming up in arms about it all. Jones got moved for what will be a very late 2nd round pick.

Cooper struggles to pick up the playbook and, at NFL game speed, has shown an alarming deterioration of his fundamentals. His hands are slow and poor. His balance, leverage concepts and footwork are atrocious at the NFL level. You cannot coach up balance. Younger players can push through with more athleticism, veterans when they lose a step, learn to chew up space with experience, technique and guile. That's where Cooper starts to look like a bad bet to a worse one, he's not showing the technique or basic concepts/fundamental core ability to one day shade for losing a step as most players do.

Centers have a vast amount of responsibility. That situation compounds when you are playing a young QB1 ( Garropolo for the first four games). That situation compounds again when you have a guard who isn't reliable. This isn't just about Cooper's limitations, its his total impact across the line. Lines are units, the weak link creates a tax situation for the other players, creating negative trade off situations.

Part of the equation is also the esteem that the Patriots front office ( i.e. Belichick) has in Jamie Collins. Which is a plus minus situation. Collins is a very good player, but he's not a player you game plan for as an opposing offense. Collins simply checks off all the laundry list of things that Belichick wants his linebackers to do without being told to do it.

IF this trade spurs anything, it shouldn't be about Chandler Jones, it should be about the bang up job that Steve Keim has done in Arizona the past few years. Belichick jettisoned the one edge player that other opposing offenses had to account for and game plan around. Given unit dependency, he's also hurt Collins, Hightower, Butler and all because Jones could set the edge for the Patriots.

Basic Walsh theory - The team that can consistently generate a pass rush in the 4th quarter is the team most likely to win and consistently win. Think about that. when most people think of the great Bill Walsh, they think offense, they think West Coast Offense, but Walsh never wavered from an elite pass rush being a priority in overall team success.

If Pats fans want to believe that Belichick didn't lose this trade, then so be it, but Steve Keim won it. The Patriots, esp taking on the completely shot Chris Long, are worse after the trade instead of better.
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Well I guess there is a first time for everything.

 
While there have been many trade rumors this offseason, today was our first one where the Patriots sent star defensive end Chandler Jones to the Arizona Cardinals in exchange for a 2nd round pick and guard Jonathan Cooper.

 
While many are going to point to Jones’ off the field issues this past year, Jones’ fate with the Patriots was likely sealed when they saw the contracts come in for Malik Jackson and Olivier Vernon in free agency. Jackson landed a $14.25 million contract off a 5.5 sack season while Vernon, who was generally the second pass rusher in Miami, scored $17 million a year. If those players are worth that it means Jones is worth close to $20 million a year.

That’s generally not a winning formula in the NFL and the Patriots have always avoided the big money game with their players. The Patriots see more value into turning those players into future draft capital and/or decent upside/low risk talent. They got both  this year with a late 2nd rounder and Cooper, who has talent but has been inconsistent and injury prone. He also plays a far lower cost position if he does play well.  While the Patriots do hold an option for him in 2017 don’t expect them to exercise that option as its well over $10 million and right now hes a $3 million player.

From the Cardinals side this trade is very intriguing. I felt last year based on moves that the Cardinals made that they were “all in” generally bypassing some long term logic for possible short term gain. They are one of the most leveraged teams in the NFL when it comes to deferring cap charges, in part because of their use of voidable contract years in some of their veteran players contracts. This move certainly plays into the win now mentality.

But where things get interesting for Arizona at this point is what is the long term plan. Right now I have the Cardinals with just 27 players under contract in 2017, 3rd least in the NFL. They only have around $93 million committed to the salary cap, which ranks in the top third of the NFL, but the free agent list is massive.

The players include Tyrann Mathieu, Chandler Jones, Michael Floyd, Calais Campbell, and Larry Fitzgerald. Those are three grade A contracts at the top, a pretty strong one for Campbell, and another tough decision on Fitzgerald who has the team over a barrel with a huge salary cap charge of $9.7 million if they don’t extend him. QB Carson Palmer is under contract through 2017.

Does Arizona wait until the season is over to evaluate things and then decide if they should be like Denver and pick and choose who they want to retain or go the ways of the Seahawks and sign a large number of mega contract players and hope that they can find a long term quarterback to make it work. Or do they just make the moves now to lock these players up?  They can probably get more favorable terms by extending now, but if the team does poorly do they really want to be stuck with these players for the next three or four years?  It’s a real difficult decision.

As for the cap impact of this trade in 2016 the Cardinals will take on a net total of $5.41 million in cap charges, while the Patriots will save that same amount. Cooper will leave behind $2.24 million in dead money on the Cardinals cap.
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http://overthecap.com/patriots-cardinals-make-big-trade/

 
STRAP IN BOYS, THE UNICORNS COMING TO TOWN

A 4th for Bennett and a 6th.

Bennett's 2016 salary is $5mil, will be a UFA in 2017.

Pats should have about $10mil left in cap, more if Dola restructures.

Also, the Pats now have five 6th round picks  :shrug:

 
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The 12 personnel might be unstoppable now, especially if Lewis gets back 100%.. This is going to help out Gronk tremendously as Bennett is a very good run blocker, he's not just a pass catcher.  I think Gronk was limited last season because he had to stay "in" and block. 

 
Really hope the Pats can talk Bennett into a 1 year extension and bump him up a little.

Split the difference, give him a bump, wrap him up another year. He'll be able to enter FA hot and 31, he'll be able to get a nice contract somewhere.

A lot of hoping in that sentiment.

 
Run It Up said:
Really hope the Pats can talk Bennett into a 1 year extension and bump him up a little.

Split the difference, give him a bump, wrap him up another year. He'll be able to enter FA hot and 31, he'll be able to get a nice contract somewhere.

A lot of hoping in that sentiment.
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They could be looking to add a compensatory pick for him after this year. 

 
Run It Up said:
Pats add Shea Mcclellin, DL/LB

19th overall pick in 2012, underperformed pretty much everywhere in Chicago. I like their odds to get something out of him.
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This has Minkovich written all over it.  He's so a guy that BB could turn into a big time contributor.   He flashed great athletic ability at times and also was run over a lot.  He struggled with injuries and a lot sea changes on the defense while he was there.  

 
Yeah, hes being compared a lot to Jabaal Sheard. Just another one of those dudes everyone expected the Pats to draft, they end up going to another team where they don't fit the scheme then end up in NE for peanuts.

After Mcclellin was drafted at the 19, NE traded up to the 21 to grab Chandler Jones.

The Pats getting some depth courtesy of the Bears, Bostic, Mcclellin and Bennett. 

 
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Run It Up said:
Yeah, hes being compared a lot to Jabaal Sheard. Just another one of those dudes everyone expected the Pats to draft, they end up going to another team where they don't fit the scheme then end up in NE for peanuts.

After Mcclellin was drafted at the 19, NE traded up to the 21 to grab Chandler Jones.

The Pats getting some depth courtesy of the Bears, Bostic, Mcclellin and Bennett. 
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Yeah McClellin was brought in to replace Urlacher, which was just a terrible fit for him.. They switched him between LB and DE a few times, in addition to the defense going from 4-3 to 3-4 to now back to 4-3 with Fox (I believe).  Between that an injuries he just never was able to find a role.

 
Love the Bennett deal...the Pats really needed another solid TE who can both catch and block...they have been limited in that area since Hernandez decided he wanted to spend the rest of his life behind bars...having Bennett and Gronk on the field together will be very imposing and if Gronk went down the Pats would still be viable at TE...if Hogan is legit this offense will really be a handful...Gronk, Bennett, Edelman, Amendola, Lewis and Hogan (and anything else they add) can really cause some serious match-up nightmares for defenses...as for McClellin this is the type of signing that we have seen bust and boom...if he can come in and contribute at LB it would really be a nice addition because they are a little thin at that position...between him, Long, Grissom and Flowers life after Chandler will be a lot easier if at least two of them become solid contributors..

The beginning of free agency is always a little slow for the Pats but right now I am very pleased with what they are doing...round six of the draft looks to be a real crowd-pleaser if you are a Pats fan...

 
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