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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (2 Viewers)

I find it interesting that people can evaluate the same situation and come to completely different conclusions. Most of the Boston sports talking heads have reached the conclusion that Mac Jones has already won the QB competition and will be the Week 1 starter. Yet Cam was close to perfect last night, starting the game and working with the first team. Jones did not take snaps with the starters at all last night.

And Cam still is the go to guy to practice with the first team offense against the first team defense every day. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't practiced with the second unit much (if at all). Maybe that whole dynamic will change in the next two weeks, but in terms of practice time and assignments, Cam looks to be practicing as the starter and Mac practicing as a #2 QB would.

Sure, Jones has looked good . . . playing WITH guys that won't play much, and playing AGAINST guys that may not play much (or could be out of the league in a couple of weeks). IMO, until Jones starts playing everyday exclusively with the first unit, I don't see how he can possible start the season as their starting QB.

Also IMO, BB will enter the season with Cam, see how things go, see if Mac looks good in practice, and then wait for a Cam injury to "have" to go to Jones. But I don't think the team will tank with Newton and will win at a decent clip, so the only way to get Jones in will be to wait for a Cam injury / COVID outbreak, etc.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I find it interesting that people can evaluate the same situation and come to completely different conclusions. Most of the Boston sports talking heads have reached the conclusion that Mac Jones has already won the QB competition and will be the Week 1 starter. Yet Cam was close to perfect last night, starting the game and working with the first team. Jones did not take snaps with the starters at all last night.

And Cam still is the go to guy to practice with the first team offense against the first team defense every day. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't practiced with the second unit much (if at all). Maybe that whole dynamic will change in the next two weeks, but in terms of practice time and assignments, Cam looks to be practicing as the starter and Mac practicing as a #2 QB would.

Sure, Jones has looked good . . . playing WITH guys that won't play much, and playing AGAINST guys that may not play much (or could be out of the league in a couple of weeks). IMO, until Jones starts playing everyday exclusively with the first unit, I don't see how he can possible start the season as their starting QB.

Also IMO, BB will enter the season with Cam, see how things go, see if Mac looks good in practice, and then wait for a Cam injury to "have" to go to Jones. But I don't think the team will tank with Newton and will win at a decent clip, so the only way to get Jones in will be to wait for a Cam injury / COVID outbreak, etc.
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I have not been hearing that…many I hear/read are saying they would like Mac to be the opening day starter because they are more impressed with him but are resigned to the fact that Cam will get the nod to start the year.

 
Boston said:
I have not been hearing that…many I hear/read are saying they would like Mac to be the opening day starter because they are more impressed with him but are resigned to the fact that Cam will get the nod to start the year.
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BST last night was a Mac lovefest.

 
Anarchy99 said:
BST last night was a Mac lovefest.
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As it should be…there is a ton of hope that the Pats nailed it with the Jones pick (and the early reviews are excellent) and the Pats now have their QB of the future which means the franchise can move forward post-Brady…I beat the drum pre-draft for Mac and I fully believe he will be a high-level QB for a long time.

 
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Not that the situations are all that similar, but

- Brady didn't make a start for 18 games.
- Cassel didn't make a start for 50 games.
- Garoppolo didn't make a start for 33 games.

Granted, they had Brady, but they had times where the last game really didn't matter any and they could have started one of the backups.

BB will start the guy that gives the team the best chance to win, and if he feels starting Jones too soon might impact his development moving forward, he will stick with Cam.

Listening to a wide range of people on radio and TV, I still have a hard time buying into "Jones is leading the QB competition "when he isn't practicing with the starters or playing with the starters in the preseason games.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Player by player update on offensive players. 

LINK
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Seems reasonable on all the players on offense. Not really many surprises. Nordin making the team as starting kicker would be the only thing considered different then we thought at the time right after the draft.   Hoping they can dodge the injury bullet/s. 

 
Boston said:
Would love it if they could sneak Nordin onto the practice squad and try to develop him for next year.
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Yeah, hopefully he dials in the accuracy consistency. Cheering for him given his leg strength. 

 
I don't know what it means for either a bump in pay, a contract extension, or whether he will suit up for Week 1, but Gilmore has been in camp every day. He's been doing rehab / strengthening / conditioning work and has been working with DBs in a quasi-coaching role behind the scenes. BB described his status as day-to-day today and still injury related. That good easily be hogwash, but if the situation were contentious, I'm not sure SG would be as active as he has been in camp. Like I said, all options are still on the table (incentives added to contract, extension, trade, left on PUP to start the season and miss first 6 games).

 
Nick Folk back at practice, so baring a set back to whatever physical issue he had or suddenly missing a bunch of kicks, Folk looks like the most likely option to be their PK to start the season.

 
johnnycakes said:
Maybe they'll sign Nordin to the practice squad.  
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They certainly can try, but first they would have to cut him and hope he clears waivers and makes it to the PS. Once on the practice squad, any team can sign him at any time (but they would have to keep him on their active roster).

 
johnnycakes said:
Maybe they'll sign Nordin to the practice squad.  
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With the recent misses they can hopefully sneak him on if they want to...kid has some power but needs to become reliable if he is gonna be an NFL kicker...I am sure BB would like to not have to worry about the kicking game for awhile which is why they used a #5 last year although that did not go well at all....right now it appears to be another year of Folk.

 
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Boston said:
With the recent misses they can hopefully sneak him on if they want to...kid has some power but needs to become reliable if he is gonna be an NFL kicker...I am sure BB would like to not have to worry about the kicking game for awhile which is why they used a #5 last year although that did not go well at all....right now it appears to be another year of Folk.
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I get that Folk is 37 and not a long-term solution, but he has been very accurate kicking for NE. He's made 89% of his FG attempts and 93% of his extra points since coming to town. Maybe he starts going south or gets a hamstring pull, but that is pretty accurate for a kicker.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I get that Folk is 37 and not a long-term solution, but he has been very accurate kicking for NE. He's made 89% of his FG attempts and 93% of his extra points since coming to town. Maybe he starts going south or gets a hamstring pull, but that is pretty accurate for a kicker.
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I have no issues with him but don’t see him as the long term answer…he is 37 and was a street free agent last year…he had an excellent year but we can’t be surprised if he doesn’t duplicate it. 

 
Boston said:
With the recent misses they can hopefully sneak him on if they want to...kid has some power but needs to become reliable if he is gonna be an NFL kicker...I am sure BB would like to not have to worry about the kicking game for awhile which is why they used a #5 last year although that did not go well at all....right now it appears to be another year of Folk.
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After watching him for four years in college, I'd put down a pretty hefty bet that 'reliable' never becomes a word associated with Nordin.

 
Practice news and notes:

- Cam will be out several days due to COVID protocols.
- Mac took most of the QB reps and went 17-of-31 in 11-on-11's.
- Folk returned but went 3-5 on FGs and was barely making 40 yard kicks distance wise.
- Jonnu back with no limitations.

LINK

 
Blackbear said:
He was over 80% today. They took note of it. 

This link has winners from today’s first practice with Giants. Nice to see the rookies doing well. https://www.patspulpit.com/2021/8/25/22641752/winners-losers-patriots-giants-joint-practices-jones-folk
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Gotta love that...Barmore was a guy that had some questions about but he appears to be playing like a 1st round pick...I am starting to believe Meyers may become a starting level fantasy WR, he has been playing great this preseason.

 
Boston said:
Gotta love that...Barmore was a guy that had some questions about but he appears to be playing like a 1st round pick...I am starting to believe Meyers may become a starting level fantasy WR, he has been playing great this preseason.
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He did well last season. Pff gave him a 78.6 rating… https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jakobi-meyers/47468

That rating was higher than Agholor and Bourne.

Should be interesting if he plays slot. Does anyone know if he is playing slot a lot in practice. He seems to be a good route runner. 

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
That's a good showing for Jones, particularly against the G'ints who are projected top 10 secondary.

But he threw 2 picks yesterday :D
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The interesting thing is he improved each day with the first teamers. I don’t think you can improve more upon 80+%. You would think he did enough to gain more first team reps. 

 
Blackbear said:
The interesting thing is he improved each day with the first teamers. I don’t think you can improve more upon 80+%. You would think he did enough to gain more first team reps. 
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The problem with 2 QB each getting 50% of the starter reps is that means your starting QB is only getting 50% of the reps with the starters. Having 2 guys actually hurts the team in terms of the starter building chemistry and a rhythm with the starting unit.

 
Anarchy99 said:
The problem with 2 QB each getting 50% of the starter reps is that means your starting QB is only getting 50% of the reps with the starters. Having 2 guys actually hurts the team in terms of the starter building chemistry and a rhythm with the starting unit.
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I notice this is how the 49ers are handling JimmyG/Lance. I’m not sure if Newton gets more reps if it makes his season any better. I do think getting Mac Jones more reps makes his season better. Not really rocket science, but then again Belichick may be stuck on Newton. You would worry though a bit if this five day protocol kicks in during the regular season. With the projections they way they are one game could be the difference of making the playoffs. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
The problem with 2 QB each getting 50% of the starter reps is that means your starting QB is only getting 50% of the reps with the starters. Having 2 guys actually hurts the team in terms of the starter building chemistry and a rhythm with the starting unit.
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Yes and no...right now you have a competition between a rookie and a popular veteran so I think it is very important long-term to give both players a fair shot so when Mac (who is already highly regard by the vets) takes over it was seen as a fair fight in the locker-room...once he does take-over he will be getting all those reps and we can all look back and laugh that there was actually a question who the better QB was.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/08/26/patriots-teammates-praise-mac-jones-control-of-the-offense/

 
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Boston said:
Yes and no...right now you have a competition between a rookie and a popular veteran so I think it is very important long-term to give both players a fair shot so when Mac (who is already highly regard by the vets) takes over it was seen as a fair fight in the locker-room...once he does take-over he will be getting all those reps and we can all look back and laugh that there was actually a question who the better QB was.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/08/26/patriots-teammates-praise-mac-jones-control-of-the-offense/
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I doubt Cam’s mom would vote for him in a secret ballot. I still think there will be a way to start the season with Cam and then COVID or an injury makes it easy for BB to pivot to Mac and still have it look like he did a solid for Newton. 

 
Anarchy99 said:
I doubt Cam’s mom would vote for him in a secret ballot. I still think there will be a way to start the season with Cam and then COVID or an injury makes it easy for BB to pivot to Mac and still have it look like he did a solid for Newton. 
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This Covid episode may have already opened that door...will be interesting to see what happens in the Giants game.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I doubt Cam’s mom would vote for him in a secret ballot. I still think there will be a way to start the season with Cam and then COVID or an injury makes it easy for BB to pivot to Mac and still have it look like he did a solid for Newton. 
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and/or starting the season 0-2 or 1-3 after 2-4 weeks.  I'm hoping for 3-1 or a shocking 4-0.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
and/or starting the season 0-2 or 1-3 after 2-4 weeks.  I'm hoping for 3-1 or a shocking 4-0.
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I saw a game by game breakdown of how the Pats would do. They have them starting the season 7-2. They also predict they end up 11-6 and make the playoffs. IMO, their schedule early in the year is easier than down the stretch, and if they get average offensive production and limit turnovers to start the year they could win a lot of games in the first couple of months. The question becomes, who is more likely to cough up the football, Cam or Mac? Part 2 of the equation will be who would be better suited to face a tougher slate of games over the latter part of the season?

The other thing that goes against that narrative is NE is usually shakier to start the season and stronger to end the season (although the last 2 years run counter to that). One would think that with a lot of new faces, the team would struggle early and gel later in the year. Bottom line, there are a ton of questions for the Pats and they could end up with anywhere from 6 to 12 wins.

 
Too many threads to keep up on, so will post here. NE and NYG scrimmaging this morning. Cam first shot with the offense, led offense down the field with what was described as a pretty easy scoring drive. Mac came in later and threw a Pick 6. Jones deep bomb to Gunner but he dropped it. Can't get a feel for if they are alternating QBs by possession or how they are doing it.

 
Each QB got one full series with the starters. Cam scored in 8 plays and was said to be efficient. Mac threw a Pick 6 to start but then led a 20 play scoring drive with lots of drops, another INT wiped out by a penalty, in what was described as a very sloppy drive. Jones got another series with the second unit. At one point Jones was 10-19 . . . not sure how much he played beyond that.

 
Phil Perry had the following . . .

In 11-on-11 first-team work:
- Cam Newton: 4-for-6, with one rep wiped due to an illegal contact penalty on the Giants.
- Mac Jones: 10-for-21, including a completed 2-point pass, a TD, an INT and four drops

 
Anarchy99 said:
I saw a game by game breakdown of how the Pats would do. They have them starting the season 7-2. They also predict they end up 11-6 and make the playoffs. IMO, their schedule early in the year is easier than down the stretch, and if they get average offensive production and limit turnovers to start the year they could win a lot of games in the first couple of months. The question becomes, who is more likely to cough up the football, Cam or Mac? Part 2 of the equation will be who would be better suited to face a tougher slate of games over the latter part of the season?

The other thing that goes against that narrative is NE is usually shakier to start the season and stronger to end the season (although the last 2 years run counter to that). One would think that with a lot of new faces, the team would struggle early and gel later in the year. Bottom line, there are a ton of questions for the Pats and they could end up with anywhere from 6 to 12 wins.
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Were to two losses in the first 9 games to Miami / week1 and Tampa / week 4?  

I would say the question becomes who is more likely to lead the team to victories in week 1 and week 4?  Naturally, my answer to that question, overwhelmingly so, is Cam.  If it plays out this way, and Cam contributes to fewer than 6TDs or more than 3 turnovers in the first 4 games, I will cheerfully admit to being wrong.

If Mac starts the season and the Pats do better than 2-2 in their first 4, the legend of Jones will start.  But I don't see Jones as Brady 2.0 in that he didn't face the adversity at Alabama (read: silver spoon) that Brady did at Michigan (where the coaching staff, the boosters and the fan base actively worked against him getting and keeping the starting job).  Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, which I'll be happy to see if it happens, but starting Jones week 1 is a mistake imo.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Were to two losses in the first 9 games to Miami / week1 and Tampa / week 4?  

I would say the question becomes who is more likely to lead the team to victories in week 1 and week 4?  Naturally, my answer to that question, overwhelmingly so, is Cam.  If it plays out this way, and Cam contributes to fewer than 6TDs or more than 3 turnovers in the first 4 games, I will cheerfully admit to being wrong.

If Mac starts the season and the Pats do better than 2-2 in their first 4, the legend of Jones will start.  But I don't see Jones as Brady 2.0 in that he didn't face the adversity at Alabama (read: silver spoon) that Brady did at Michigan (where the coaching staff, the boosters and the fan base actively worked against him getting and keeping the starting job).  Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, which I'll be happy to see if it happens, but starting Jones week 1 is a mistake imo.
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There was a link in what I posted that you may have missed, but the losses they predicted were to TB 21-6 and LAC 21-13.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Thanks.  If Miami can run the ball, they are going to be a very tough out this year.  The loss to LAC I could see as well.
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TBH, this team could beat or lose to anyone. The pieces may not fit right. Today was a good example. In the scrimmage against the Giants, the NE defense was dominating on a Giants drive but then suddenly there was a mix up and a blown coverage. So despite several sacks and good pressure on plays, NYG got a gift TD on a 3rd and a country mile. That could happen when you are trying to field a defense with 50% new starters.

No one believes Cam can stay consistent (or that he is a better passer than Jones). They can get away with Cam being meh but not for an entire game and certainly not against good teams. Mac will play eventually, and I am sure his play early on will be a shotgun blast. Using today as an example again, he started with a Pick 6. But he led a grind of a TD drive. I think BB would be happy with Jones if he played it safe and punted on a drive and then the next drive got a FG (for a net +3 points instead of net neutral).

I know there are plenty of folks that can't wait to see Jones as their regular starter (myself included). But there is a huge difference playing on the road in bad whether in a hostile environment against a playoff caliber team in a high pressure situation compared to looking good in a preseason game playing against scrubs with no blitzing, vanilla defenses, and nothing really on the line. Not saying Mac can't handle that, but those are the types of situations BB will want Jones to grow into instead of throwing him right into the fire. Let's be real . . . BB doesn't care what the fans or the media things and he certainly won't alter his plans based on how the masses feel.

Something else that will be fascinating to follow is the Pats have historically had a great record playing at home, and having fans again could bring that advantage back. They play some tough home games: MIA, NOS, TB, DAL, NYJ, CLE, TEN, BUF, and JAC. Last year homefield meant nothing, but they will need that again to win some of those games.

 
Not a Felger fan but he is 100% right when he says that he would be OK if Jones did not start right away if the other option wasn't Cam.

 
Per RapSheet, the Ravens are close on a trade of fifth-round pick CB Shaun Wade, the former Ohio State standout, to the Patriots. A high-ceiling player likely added to New England’s secondary.

ETA: Done deal. Patriots get: DB Shaun Wade. Ravens get: 2022 seventh-round pick, 2023 fifth-round pick.

 
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Anarchy99 said:
No one believes Cam can stay consistent (or that he is a better passer than Jones).
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In 2018, after being 55-60% completions qb for the first 7 years of his career, Cam was 67% for the year.  Injured for 2019 season.  Meyers/Byrd/Harry/Izzo/8starters opted out 2020 season.  In 9 of 16 games in 2020 Cam averaged 70% completion.  The other 8 games were his first two weeks coming back from Covid and December football where everyone (except the Chargers lol) figured out all you had to do last year to pound the patriots was stop the run.  After the first 4 games of this season it will be a very easy debate to settle.  Either Cam will have accumulated a 55% completion rate or a 70% completion rate.  Nearly everyone thinks its the former; I think its the latter.

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
In 2018, after being 55-60% completions qb for the first 7 years of his career, Cam was 67% for the year.  Injured for 2019 season.  Meyers/Byrd/Harry/Izzo/8starters opted out 2020 season.  In 9 of 16 games in 2020 Cam averaged 70% completion.  The other 8 games were his first two weeks coming back from Covid and December football where everyone (except the Chargers lol) figured out all you had to do last year to pound the patriots was stop the run.  After the first 4 games of this season it will be a very easy debate to settle.  Either Cam will have accumulated a 55% completion rate or a 70% completion rate.  Nearly everyone thinks its the former; I think its the latter.
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This sounds like a bunch of excuses. I hope he has a better year if he is the starter. But I’d like to see Mac get as many first team reps and be the starter to get the team headed in the right direction as soon as possible. 

 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
In 2018, after being 55-60% completions qb for the first 7 years of his career, Cam was 67% for the year.  Injured for 2019 season.  Meyers/Byrd/Harry/Izzo/8starters opted out 2020 season.  In 9 of 16 games in 2020 Cam averaged 70% completion.  The other 8 games were his first two weeks coming back from Covid and December football where everyone (except the Chargers lol) figured out all you had to do last year to pound the patriots was stop the run.  After the first 4 games of this season it will be a very easy debate to settle.  Either Cam will have accumulated a 55% completion rate or a 70% completion rate.  Nearly everyone thinks its the former; I think its the latter.
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Obviously a lot will depend on if he is throwing downfield or screen passes. Similarly, last year there were times he just made bad decisions or was not positioned properly. Being too close to the LOS and then having passes tipped and picked. Trying an ill-advised screen for a pick. Running the football in one hand and fumbling at the worst times possible. And I don't know how many passes that skipped into the waiting receivers (or sailed over their heads). I get that happens sometimes, but there were times when Cam wasn't under duress, guys got free on crossing routes, and he flat out missed them and it wasn't particularly close. If Cam can eliminate those types of plays, he doesn't have to be throwing for 300 yards and completing 70% of his passes. In today's NFL, you can't have a QB with a passer rating in the 70's or 80's.

 
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