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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread (4 Viewers)

rockaction said:
steelcityman said:
Just bumped down the RB cause their OL isnt good.
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Fair enough. I figured that. It just doesn't seem prudent given that their back-ups played. I'm actually high on Stevenson, Anarchy99's compelling counter-arguments notwithstanding. Sounds like they're really managing his reps in practice with an eye towards workhorse. Yes, we know Bill doesn't do workhorses, but maybe he's seen a Dillon unicorn again.
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I still think NE will sign another RB. Not knowing who that is, hard to decrypt what that means to RS.

As far as the line goes, their starting OL when healthy should be solid. How healthy they will be is TBA. We've learned that playing all second and third stringers is not a recipe for success. Trying to make any conclusions from last night when they pretty much played none of their starters on offense seems ill advised.

I predict they have a fantasy Top 40 WR, a Top 20 RB, a Top 15 TE, and a Top 15 QB. Probably guys worth rostering, but probably not huge impact guys. The only player that should be in a lineup every week is RS, but as covered already, I think they will try to limit his workload some.
 
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It will be interesting to see what NE does with their receiving corps. IMO, Parker, JJSS, and Thornton are pretty meh but Bourne, Thompson, and Boutte are pretty interesting with more upside. Thorton can get sent to Siberia pretty easily, but they shelled out decent money to sign Juju and extend Parker. Not sure how they get off of those guys to give the arguably better options more time on the field.
 
Per reports, Gesicki, Strong, and Montgomery back at practice today. Zeke got extensive work (sounded like he and Rhamondre split the reps pretty evenly) and Elliott saw a ton of targets as a receiver.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Per reports, Gesicki, Strong, and Montgomery back at practice today. Zeke got extensive work (sounded like he and Rhamondre split the reps pretty evenly) and Elliott saw a ton of targets as a receiver.
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rethinking whether or not there is a scenario where zeke gets more than 100 touches.
 
there have been more posts in this forum about the Rhamondre workload over the past few years than any other topic that I'm aware of.

Not a criticism, just an observation.
 
Onwenu off the PUP list and put in a limited practice today. Christian Gonzalez limped off the field in the last few minutes of practice in a two minute drill.
 
Just heard a report on the radio (they credited Mike Reiss with it) that Mac may not play in the 3rd preseason game because they are not comfortable with O line protecting him in their current state.
 
Boston said:
Just heard a report on the radio (they credited Mike Reiss with it) that Mac may not play in the 3rd preseason game because they are not comfortable with O line protecting him in their current state.
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the inference being that waiting a week will net a massive improvement?
 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Boston said:
Just heard a report on the radio (they credited Mike Reiss with it) that Mac may not play in the 3rd preseason game because they are not comfortable with O line protecting him in their current state.
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the inference being that waiting a week will net a massive improvement?
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I would assume it means with their injuries and lack of depth they are not comfortable until week 1 when hopefully they are not as banged up.
 
greenmountaingoat said:
This O Line is a dumpster fire. Bill hanging on to 15m cap space without starters on the OLine is bonkers.
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After the Patricia debacle if the O line submarines the season I don't know how you can continue with BB...like the stupidity of Patricia it was beyond obvious that the O line needed to be beefed up this offseason and the Pats passed on adding to it in the first three rounds of the draft and only added JAGs (if that) in FA...it is just unacceptable...if Mike O, Andrews, Strange and Trent Brown remain healthy for 17 games they may be able to get by but does anyone truly believe they can get 17 games out of Trent Brown physically or mentally...if he goes down (or doesn't feel like playing or decides he wants to go on an eating binge) and Mike O's ankle doesn't allow him to play tackle the season could be beyond ugly...the TE position is another position asking for trouble...BOB is running a lot of two TE sets and you only have two viable TEs so if one gets hurt you are toast there...also, Gesicki is a subpar blocker and Henry is OK so if you need to help out the O line there is not a lot of help to give...I just don't understand how BB feels what they have on offense is sufficient to be a legit contender in today's NFL.
 
greenmountaingoat said:
This O Line is a dumpster fire. Bill hanging on to 15m cap space without starters on the OLine is bonkers.
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I don’t care if they have $50 million in cap space. Where are there starting offensive lineman available right now, the 24-hour OL store? Not having a better OL is clearly an issue, but who is there that they can sign that is worth paying too dollar for?
 
Boston said:
greenmountaingoat said:
This O Line is a dumpster fire. Bill hanging on to 15m cap space without starters on the OLine is bonkers.
Click to expand...

After the Patricia debacle if the O line submarines the season I don't know how you can continue with BB...like the stupidity of Patricia it was beyond obvious that the O line needed to be beefed up this offseason and the Pats passed on adding to it in the first three rounds of the draft and only added JAGs (if that) in FA...it is just unacceptable...if Mike O, Andrews, Strange and Trent Brown remain healthy for 17 games they may be able to get by but does anyone truly believe they can get 17 games out of Trent Brown physically or mentally...if he goes down (or doesn't feel like playing or decides he wants to go on an eating binge) and Mike O's ankle doesn't allow him to play tackle the season could be beyond ugly...the TE position is another position asking for trouble...BOB is running a lot of two TE sets and you only have two viable TEs so if one gets hurt you are toast there...also, Gesicki is a subpar blocker and Henry is OK so if you need to help out the O line there is not a lot of help to give...I just don't understand how BB feels what they have on offense is sufficient to be a legit contender in today's NFL.
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So you're saying Mac Jones could be running for his life against the Philly pass rush week 1?
 
Snotbubbles said:
Boston said:
greenmountaingoat said:
This O Line is a dumpster fire. Bill hanging on to 15m cap space without starters on the OLine is bonkers.
Click to expand...

After the Patricia debacle if the O line submarines the season I don't know how you can continue with BB...like the stupidity of Patricia it was beyond obvious that the O line needed to be beefed up this offseason and the Pats passed on adding to it in the first three rounds of the draft and only added JAGs (if that) in FA...it is just unacceptable...if Mike O, Andrews, Strange and Trent Brown remain healthy for 17 games they may be able to get by but does anyone truly believe they can get 17 games out of Trent Brown physically or mentally...if he goes down (or doesn't feel like playing or decides he wants to go on an eating binge) and Mike O's ankle doesn't allow him to play tackle the season could be beyond ugly...the TE position is another position asking for trouble...BOB is running a lot of two TE sets and you only have two viable TEs so if one gets hurt you are toast there...also, Gesicki is a subpar blocker and Henry is OK so if you need to help out the O line there is not a lot of help to give...I just don't understand how BB feels what they have on offense is sufficient to be a legit contender in today's NFL.
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So you're saying Mac Jones could be running for his life against the Philly pass rush week 1?
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He may be allowed to wear roller skates due to safety concerns…
 
Anarchy99 said:
greenmountaingoat said:
This O Line is a dumpster fire. Bill hanging on to 15m cap space without starters on the OLine is bonkers.
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I don’t care if they have $50 million in cap space. Where are there starting offensive lineman available right now, the 24-hour OL store? Not having a better OL is clearly an issue, but who is there that they can sign that is worth paying too dollar for?
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Honestly, I would have kicked the tires on Andre Dillard during free agency. Former 1st round pick that just got beat out by Jordan Mialata in Philly. He got 3/$29 from Tennessee. Can play tackle and guard. Could be a diamond in the ruff if given the opportunity to play.
 
There are temporary workarounds that they haven't even tried so far. Leave a TE (or two) in to block. Use an extra lineman as a TE to block. Leave the RB in to block. They have been sending a lot of receivers out in patterns with less emphasis on blocking. I am sure BOB wanted to see how things would work in a more spread, higher speed offense with lots of targets, but for now that really isn't possible.

Recent sports media talk theorized that they may end up with someone else not currently on the roster that will end up starting (maybe in a few weeks after ramping up). The inference was they could for trade someone or sign a veteran player that was cut (or someone off another team's practice squad). That should worry Pats fans more than calm their fears. Starting level lineman are hard to find, especially at this time of the year.

Certainly, the patchwork quilt they have cobbled together is not a solution. But all of the starters have been hurt, the backups are also banged up, and some of them haven't really returned yet. Hard to field a line when 5-6 guys are injured. Can't really roster a dozen lineman. Brown-Strange-Andrews-Onwenu-rotation at RT should be decent enough. NFL teams should be able to take the remaining 6 lineman and find one or two that can trade off at tackle. But they can't even play that line together yet, so who knows what they can do in the interim to stop the bleeding.
 
Anarchy99 said:
There are temporary workarounds that they haven't even tried so far. Leave a TE (or two) in to block. Use an extra lineman as a TE to block. Leave the RB in to block. They have been sending a lot of receivers out in patterns with less emphasis on blocking. I am sure BOB wanted to see how things would work in a more spread, higher speed offense with lots of targets, but for now that really isn't possible.

Recent sports media talk theorized that they may end up with someone else not currently on the roster that will end up starting (maybe in a few weeks after ramping up). The inference was they could for trade someone or sign a veteran player that was cut (or someone off another team's practice squad). That should worry Pats fans more than calm their fears. Starting level lineman are hard to find, especially at this time of the year.

Certainly, the patchwork quilt they have cobbled together is not a solution. But all of the starters have been hurt, the backups are also banged up, and some of them haven't really returned yet. Hard to field a line when 5-6 guys are injured. Can't really roster a dozen lineman. Brown-Strange-Andrews-Onwenu-rotation at RT should be decent enough. NFL teams should be able to take the remaining 6 lineman and find one or two that can trade off at tackle. But they can't even play that line together yet, so who knows what they can do in the interim to stop the bleeding.
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It was so obvious that this scenario could unfold...the fact that it is only 8/26 and it is is just unacceptable...maybe the reports that BB hates Mac are true because this is exactly how you would treat him if you did.
 

Chad Graff
Staff Writer, Patriots

Pierre Strong and Kevin Harris were both well ahead of JJ Taylor on the running back depth chart entering training camp.

But Taylor has done everything to try to leapfrog those two. Will be interesting to see if Belichick keeps him on the 53-man roster Tuesday.
 
Boston said:
Chad Graff
Staff Writer, Patriots

Pierre Strong and Kevin Harris were both well ahead of JJ Taylor on the running back depth chart entering training camp.

But Taylor has done everything to try to leapfrog those two. Will be interesting to see if Belichick keeps him on the 53-man roster Tuesday.
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Strong, Harris, and Taylor could all make it to the practice squad pretty easily. They probably need roster spots right now for other positions (mostly OL) until those guys get healthy and they find a rotation that works (ok, looks less bad than they do now). It wouldn't surprise me if they only had RS and EE on the initial roster while they shuffle through cuts / adds / IR moves / etc. They will probably end up with one or two other backs on game day against the Eagles, but the roster management process may prompt them to cut the depth guys at RB initially.
 
Hey all NE experts.......what is the word on Marcus Jones? He doesn't appear to be listed as the starting CB. What is going to be his role? He was a cheat code as a CB for IDP last year. Just wondering if he will be playing enough to be worth going after as a DB.

Thanks.
 
Gally said:
Hey all NE experts.......what is the word on Marcus Jones? He doesn't appear to be listed as the starting CB. What is going to be his role? He was a cheat code as a CB for IDP last year. Just wondering if he will be playing enough to be worth going after as a DB.

Thanks.
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As things stand now, the starting outside corners would likely be Gonzalez and Jack Jones with Jonathan Jones as slot corner. If Jack Jones misses time with his gun charges, they might kick Jonathan Jones outside. I would guess Marcus Bryant and Marcus Jones would be candidates to play when Jack Jones was out. But to answer your question, I don’t think Marcus is going to be a starter.
 
Gally said:
Hey all NE experts.......what is the word on Marcus Jones? He doesn't appear to be listed as the starting CB. What is going to be his role? He was a cheat code as a CB for IDP last year. Just wondering if he will be playing enough to be worth going after as a DB.

Thanks.
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It has actually been very quiet with regard to him...not hearing much good or bad...with Douglas looking good it feels like offensively he won't be getting too much work and as far as the D goes you have Gonzalez, Jack and Jonathan Jones ahead of him although Jack Jones is a complete wildcard as far as reliability goes...I don't do IDP but my guess is unless there are injuries or suspensions (i.e. Jack Jones) it will be tough for him to make too much noise.
 
As far as Marcus playing on offense, I heard he has not taken even one snap on offense in training camp. Last year, they added in the play he scored a TD on offense the week of practice before that game. Doesn’t sound like doing much on offense is a big focus for him.
 
With Strong traded to CLE, it looks like they were going to cut him. Wheatley, the OT they acquired, was undrafted, is now on his 4th team, and has yet to appear in an actual game yet. Not really sure what their plan is. Cut down day is Tuesday, and I don't see how they keep Wheatley on the opening roster. Cut him and re-sign him to the practice squad?
 
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Well the Lions and Eagles just cut about 200 offensive linemen so we should be able to pick up some nice scraps.

#OlineDumpsterDiving
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Why wait for the roster cuts when you can continue trading for them instead. Add Vederian Lowe from MIN in exchange for a 6th round pick. This raises the question . . . how many OL spots will be on the initial roster?
 
Anarchy99 said:
SeniorVBDStudent said:
Well the Lions and Eagles just cut about 200 offensive linemen so we should be able to pick up some nice scraps.

#OlineDumpsterDiving
Click to expand...
Why wait for the roster cuts when you can continue trading for them instead. Add Vederian Lowe from MIN in exchange for a 6th round pick. This raises the question . . . how many OL spots will be on the initial roster?
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I don't know, but we just traded a 5th or 6th rounder for a Vikings 2022 draft oline player who played 4 games last year.
 
Phil Perry's updated 53-man projection:

www.nbcsportsboston.com

Perry's 53-man roster projection: Have Pats been hiding Cunningham?

Phil Perry predicts Malik Cunningham’s fate and has the Patriots beefing up in the trenches in his final 53-man roster projection.
www.nbcsportsboston.com www.nbcsportsboston.com

Can't post the article because it is a pay-for-play but Bedard had this to say about the Pats current offene:

This is the way of a Bill Belichick-constructed offense in 2023: throw crap at the offensive wall in March and April while paying careful mind to the defense and special teams, do it again in late August/early September if the latter didn't work. And then hope for the best.
 
These trades for O-linemen reek of desperation.
They are so horrible at all 5 spots it is an embarrassment. Can't run. Can't pass.
I'm having a hard time believing they didn't do more about the issue after what they saw last season.
Did Belichick think bringing in new coaches would magically make these guys good players?
People that don't know football will blame the QB. I think Jones will be the scapegoat (again) "he's regressing from year one" they will continue to say.
There isn't any pocket passer that can be successful without a decent OL.

I'm so disappointed and the season hasn't even started yet. I'm not hoping for this but I feel there only chance of being a playoff contender is to negate there horrible OL by playing a running QB.
But the only way we see that is if they lose their first 4 games... or 5 out of 6. But by that point the horse is about in the barn.
 
NE brought back all five of their starting linemen from last year (Brown, Strange, Andrews, Onwenu, McDermott) that at the end of the year was a Top 10 unit according to PFF. They added Anderson and Reiff and drafted 3 guys to develop and serve as backups. All 5 starters missed significant time in training camp. One of the free agents they signed is hurt, and the other one got sick. How many other offensive lines on other teams would look minty fresh with their Top 6-7 players out all at the same time?

As discussed previously, there weren't many free agent linemen available this year, and the couple that were got paid a fortune. The RT spot was the primary area of concern, and the plan was McDermott, Reiff, Anderson, or Sow (as the last resort). What else could they be expected to do at this point other than trade for some depth pieces or sign guys that will be cut tomorrow? Or are people suggesting that teams should expect their entire O-line to be out at the same time?

Sure, they could have drafted an OT with their first pick, which by the time they picked would have been the 5th one selected, then folks would gripe they needed a CB. Trading for two unproven linemen was an act of desperation . . . because at this point they are desperate. The offensive line looks like a bunch of street free agents and practice players because . . . they are a bunch of street free agents and practice players. Once they get guys healthy again, the offense should be a lot better. Take the over on 7.5 wins.
 
Anarchy99 said:
NE brought back all five of their starting linemen from last year (Brown, Strange, Andrews, Onwenu, McDermott) that at the end of the year was a Top 10 unit according to PFF. They added Anderson and Reiff and drafted 3 guys to develop and serve as backups. All 5 starters missed significant time in training camp. One of the free agents they signed is hurt, and the other one got sick. How many other offensive lines on other teams would look minty fresh with their Top 6-7 players out all at the same time?

As discussed previously, there weren't many free agent linemen available this year, and the couple that were got paid a fortune. The RT spot was the primary area of concern, and the plan was McDermott, Reiff, Anderson, or Sow (as the last resort). What else could they be expected to do at this point other than trade for some depth pieces or sign guys that will be cut tomorrow? Or are people suggesting that teams should expect their entire O-line to be out at the same time?

Sure, they could have drafted an OT with their first pick, which by the time they picked would have been the 5th one selected, then folks would gripe they needed a CB. Trading for two unproven linemen was an act of desperation . . . because at this point they are desperate. The offensive line looks like a bunch of street free agents and practice players because . . . they are a bunch of street free agents and practice players. Once they get guys healthy again, the offense should be a lot better. Take the over on 7.5 wins.
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Toughest schedule in the NFL this season, I just don't know where they're going to find the points offensively to keep up with these teams.
 
Casting Couch said:
Anarchy99 said:
NE brought back all five of their starting linemen from last year (Brown, Strange, Andrews, Onwenu, McDermott) that at the end of the year was a Top 10 unit according to PFF. They added Anderson and Reiff and drafted 3 guys to develop and serve as backups. All 5 starters missed significant time in training camp. One of the free agents they signed is hurt, and the other one got sick. How many other offensive lines on other teams would look minty fresh with their Top 6-7 players out all at the same time?

As discussed previously, there weren't many free agent linemen available this year, and the couple that were got paid a fortune. The RT spot was the primary area of concern, and the plan was McDermott, Reiff, Anderson, or Sow (as the last resort). What else could they be expected to do at this point other than trade for some depth pieces or sign guys that will be cut tomorrow? Or are people suggesting that teams should expect their entire O-line to be out at the same time?

Sure, they could have drafted an OT with their first pick, which by the time they picked would have been the 5th one selected, then folks would gripe they needed a CB. Trading for two unproven linemen was an act of desperation . . . because at this point they are desperate. The offensive line looks like a bunch of street free agents and practice players because . . . they are a bunch of street free agents and practice players. Once they get guys healthy again, the offense should be a lot better. Take the over on 7.5 wins.
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Toughest schedule in the NFL this season, I just don't know where they're going to find the points offensively to keep up with these teams.
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There's not a single team in this league wherein I say our defense can't mitigate their offense. The issue is whether or not the offense can finish in the top half or not. Narratives drive perception, so everyone assumes all the top teams will remain the top teams, and that teams that have done anything new will become a top team (jets, dolphins, ravens, chargers, jaguars, lions, etc etc). Last year's offense run by Patricia and Judge was an abject disaster and the Pats won 8 games. Take the over on 7.5 wins.
 
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
 
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
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I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
 
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
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They did a good job for years at LT with Light (maybe the most underrated player of the Pats Dynasty) and Solder who was a 1st round pick...Vollmer was a RT and a 2nd round pick and had a very nice career...the big issue now is BB does not have Dante to turn water into wine...Dante is one of the greatest positional coaches in NFL history...he turned nobodies like Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Connolly, Wendell, Mason, Cannon and David Andrews into very good NFL lineman...he was able to get the most out of a headcase like Trent Brown...unfortunately those days are over and to go into this season with the current collection of tackles is just unacceptable because it was beyond obvious it was going to be an issue...and there is no excuse for it.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
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I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
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“They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen.”

True, but you can do that when you have Tom Brady behind center, not Mac Jones.
 
Lansdowne said:
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
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“They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen.”

True, but you can do that when you have Tom Brady behind center, not Mac Jones.
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1,000,000%...TB12 and Dante are no longer here...time to stop pretending they are...I am really beginning to think that whatever the hell Ernie Adams was doing was a lot more than we knew.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
Click to expand...
I think BB believes that if a QB gets the ball out quickly it can negate a good pass rush, and only teams that can counteract that quick passing game with even quicker pass rushers (the Miami Dolphins with Jason Taylor, the NYG in the superbowl, the ravens, and the Foot fetishists Jet defenses) are the only teams that expose that hubris. The issue is, of course, BB doesn't have the "qucik trigger" QB he had for most of that run. Brady was the king of the quick low pass for 4-5 yards and had WRs that could dig them out for him.

Now they have neither the "quick trigger" or the "low diggers" so plays need to develop and without an O line, they dont.
 
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
Click to expand...
Also the way to save the money for the elite guys you want to keep around, is to draft wisely and keep the talent pool churning with good to great players on rookie contracts. Every GM misses on every draft but some misses are just more egregious than others. BB zigs when others zag but that’s how we end up with guys who go Day 1-2 who were expected to go Day 3. That’s how Jordan Richards gets to be a second round pick all because “he’s like a coach on the field” when nothing about him screams second round pick. That’s how we get Sean McVay laughing because he thought Cole Strange had a chance of falling to him at 104 instead of 29, showing a massive gap between what a new school coach sees versus an old school coach. BB the GM has sabotaged BB the HC and it’s showing more and more without Brady there to mask the mistakes.
 
Boston said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...

They did a good job for years at LT with Light (maybe the most underrated player of the Pats Dynasty) and Solder who was a 1st round pick...Vollmer was a RT and a 2nd round pick and had a very nice career...the big issue now is BB does not have Dante to turn water into wine...Dante is one of the greatest positional coaches in NFL history...he turned nobodies like Andruzzi, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Connolly, Wendell, Mason, Cannon and David Andrews into very good NFL lineman...he was able to get the most out of a headcase like Trent Brown...unfortunately those days are over and to go into this season with the current collection of tackles is just unacceptable because it was beyond obvious it was going to be an issue...and there is no excuse for it.
Click to expand...
(obviously?) I agree with the first bolded part but not the second.

I think we all recognize that Bill has always treated WRs and RBs like widgets...but really its true across the board...secondary players are like widgets (see Law, Asante Samuel, etc.)....its really no surprise that he treats o line players like widgets. if you zoom the lens out, its about (Wesleyan University) economics...there's an optimal solution about how to spend dollars to field a 52 man roster and more often than not there's not going to be a whole heck of a lot of injury mitigation built into the optimal solution. rather, when unplanned events occur the strength of the 52 has to be able to mitigate a bad sequence of events. Anarchy has already posted the facts about how we got here...I'm not surprised or even critical for anyone who wants to take the position of "he should have known better" etc etc....it's reasonable to wonder what the future will look like without Scar and Ernie and Tom....my whole deal is I'm comfortable outsourcing the management of such dynamics to the guy with half a century of unparalleled success in his role and I hesitate to conclude that he has "checked out" or is otherwise not the same singularly focused freak he's always been.

Let's revisit at the end of the year, when we're either looking at a 10-7 record or a 5-12 record...and we'll have a full season of o line PFF grades to consider...time will tell.
 
Gatorman said:
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
Click to expand...
I think BB believes that if a QB gets the ball out quickly it can negate a good pass rush, and only teams that can counteract that quick passing game with even quicker pass rushers (the Miami Dolphins with Jason Taylor, the NYG in the superbowl, the ravens, and the Foot fetishists Jet defenses) are the only teams that expose that hubris. The issue is, of course, BB doesn't have the "qucik trigger" QB he had for most of that run. Brady was the king of the quick low pass for 4-5 yards and had WRs that could dig them out for him.

Now they have neither the "quick trigger" or the "low diggers" so plays need to develop and without an O line, they dont.
Click to expand...
I'm comfortable assuming that's too simple an explanation to summarize past and present.
 
Lansdowne said:
Anarchy99 said:
Lansdowne said:
The issue with tackle is BB doesn't pay premium for them. Got value out of Matt Light but can't think of any cornerstone guy at LT they've had since then. Isaiah Wynn sucked and was always hurt (and profiled better as an NFL guard than a tackle). Trent Brown was a steal in 2018 but hasn't really been the same guy since. All this K-Mart shopping at OL is how BB ends up bringing in guys like Korey Cunningham and Jermaine Eluemunor, instead of actually investing solid money. Favoring undersized centers and such. Other than Light, Logan Mankins and Joe Thuney, I can't think of any other offensive linemen the Pats have had in BB's entire tenure that were considered All-Pros compared to the rest of the league.
Click to expand...
I know you said All-Pros, but there aren't many of those to go around. Beyond the players you listed, C Damien Woody, C Dan Koppen, and G Brian Waters each were named to the Pro Bowl. As far as not spending a ton on the OL, is that a good thing or a bad thing? They won 6 times without breaking the bank on linemen. People seem to think that paying $20M each for a LT, a WR, and a CB suddenly would make them a much more talented team. I would ask who would have to come off the roster to accommodate the $60M in cap space to fit those three extra guys under the cap. There's only so much cap room, and if it were up to fans, they'd have NE shelling out $200M+ to 8 guys and let the other 45 guys play for league minimum. That being said, they could pay certain positions more without always shopping in the discount bin, but all teams need to get contributions from lower paid players or they won't win consistently.
Click to expand...
Also the way to save the money for the elite guys you want to keep around, is to draft wisely and keep the talent pool churning with good to great players on rookie contracts. Every GM misses on every draft but some misses are just more egregious than others. BB zigs when others zag but that’s how we end up with guys who go Day 1-2 who were expected to go Day 3. That’s how Jordan Richards gets to be a second round pick all because “he’s like a coach on the field” when nothing about him screams second round pick. That’s how we get Sean McVay laughing because he thought Cole Strange had a chance of falling to him at 104 instead of 29, showing a massive gap between what a new school coach sees versus an old school coach. BB the GM has sabotaged BB the HC and it’s showing more and more without Brady there to mask the mistakes.
Click to expand...
Strange finished the year with the best pass blocking PFF grade of any rookie guard last year. When will the bloom be off the rose wrt the "new guard"? McVay loses a SB 10-3, his owner sells out to get them a SB victory and now the Rams are in disarray. Shanahan gives 3 ones and a 3 for Trey Lance and then gives the guy to Jerry Jones for a bag of potato chips...after overseeing the biggest choke job in SB history (see 28-3, ATL vs NE). Please don't tell me about the new guard....the old guard still holds sway over these five points.
 
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