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Is Atheism Irrational? NYTimes Opinion Piece (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Klimtology
- Start date
McGarnicle
Footballguy
McGarnicle
Footballguy
This is extraordinary in itself. I read some ridiculous percentage like 80% of NFL players are bankrupt and/or divorced within 5 years of retirement. How many of them are smart and realistic with their money like Foster? Regardless of anything else you think of the guy, you've got to respect him a great deal for this.
JShare87
Footballguy
The Foster article was pretty good. He is a pretty deep and often misunderstood guy. I have a lot of the same thoughts he does when it comes to religion. I'm not an atheists but not really a believer either. I like to think of myself as a "hoper," I hope there is something better after this.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yeah he really seems to have his head on straight. It ain't what you make its what you keep that matters. Good for him.
joffer
Footballguy
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/12/atheism_explodes_in_saudi_arabia_where_just_talking_about_atheism_is_illegal_partner/
JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia In this country known as the cradle of Islam, where religion gives legitimacy to the government and state-appointed clerics set rules for social behavior, a growing number of Saudis are privately declaring themselves atheists.
The evidence is anecdotal, but persistent.
I know at least six atheists who confirmed that to me, said Fahad AlFahad, 31, a marketing consultant and human rights activist. Six or seven years ago, I wouldnt even have heard one person say that. Not even a best friend would confess that to me.
A Saudi journalist in Riyadh has observed the same trend.
The idea of being irreligious and even atheist is spreading because of the contradiction between what Islamists say and what they do, he said.
The perception that atheism is no longer a taboo subject at least two Gulf-produced television talk shows recently discussed it may explain why the government has made talk of atheism a terrorist offense. The March 7 decree from the Ministry of Interior prohibited, among other things, calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based.
The number of people willing to admit to friends to being atheist or to declare themselves atheist online, usually under aliases, is certainly not big enough to be a movement or threaten the government. A 2012 poll by WIN-Gallup International of about 500 Saudis found that 5 percent described themselves as convinced atheist. This was well below the global average of 13 percent.
But the greater willingness to privately admit to being atheist reflects a general disillusionment with religion and what one Saudi called a growing notion that religion is being misused by authorities to control the population. This disillusionment is seen in a number of ways, ranging from ignoring clerical pronouncements to challenging and even mocking religious leaders on social media.
Because people are becoming more disillusioned with the government, they started looking at the government and its support groups as being in bed together and conspiring together against the good of the people, said Bassim Alim, a lawyer in Jeddah.
When they see the ulema [religious scholars] appeasing the government, he added, people become dismayed because they thought they were pious and straightforward and just.
I believe people started being fed up with how religion is really controlling their life and how only one interpretation of religion should be followed, said activist Fahad AlFahad.
Together, the appearance of atheists, a growing wariness of religious controls on society, as well as the continuing lure of jihad and ultraconservatism signal a breakdown in the conformity and consensus that has marked the Saudi religious field in the recent past. It is becoming a more heterogenous and polarized faith scene.
The mosques are full but society is losing its values. Its more like a mechanical practice, like going church, you have to go on Sunday, said a former employee of state media. We no longer understand our religion, not because we dont want to. But because our vision of it, our understanding of it, has been polluted by the monarchy[and]by the official religious establishment that only measures religion by what the monarchy wants and what pleases the monarchy.
The growing skepticism about religion and clerics is more visible nowadays because of social media outlets, including tweets, blogs and Facebook pages.
Here are three illustrative tweets from Saudis:
Prince Abdul Aziz bin Fahad has been tweeting nonstop abt God. I pity his disconnectedness from todays public. Its not the 1980s. Pathetic
Because our illusion that our version of Islam is the only correct one needs to be washed away
Could the ulema issue a fatwa against domestic violence? I mean the fatwa committee has prohibited playing Resident Evil
At the same time, however, there is a countervailing trend in that some young Saudis are joining radical Islamist and jihadi movements, a trend reinforced by the war in Syria.
When the Arab Spring started, young religious people were asking about Islam and democracy, said Saud Al Sarhan, director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh. But now they are just asking about Islam and jihad, after what is going on in Syria.
This attraction towards militant ultraconservatism is also apparent in the activities of unregulated religious vigilantes. Even as the governments own religious police have come under stricter controls, these bands of young religious volunteers attack social gatherings to stop what they deem as prohibited activities, including music, dancing and gender mixing. In one famous incident in 2012, these volunteers raided the annual government-sponsored cultural festival known as Janadriya, where they clashed with security forces.
It is still dangerous to publicly admit one is an atheist because of the dire punishment one can face from a court system based on sharia, which regards disbelief in God as a capital offense.
In addition, conservative clerics who have considerable sway among Saudis, use the label atheist to discredit those who question their strict interpretations of Islamic scriptures or express doubts about the dominant version of Islam known as Wahhabism.
That is what happened with 25-year-old Hamza Kashgari who in 2012 tweeted some unconventional thoughts about Prophet Muhammad, none of which indicated he did not believe in God. Still, he was called atheist and to appease the religious establishment, the government jailed him for 20 months.
Also, Raef Badawi, in his early 30s, was accused of being atheist because he called for freedom to discuss other versions of Islam besides Wahhabism on the website Free Saudi Liberals. Badawi was sentenced to seven years in prison and 600 lashes in July 2013. His lawyer, Waleed Abu Alkhair, a human rights activist who also has been jailed, said Badawi told the court that he was a Muslim but added that everyone has a choice to believe or not believe, the BBC reported.
A Riyadh resident who has extensive contacts with young Saudis because of his job in higher education said that he tries to warn young people that they are living according to an Islam constructed by the government, and not according to the Islam given us by God.
Increasingly, he said, some youths are going to ignore religion and become atheist, while others are going to understand the game.
JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia In this country known as the cradle of Islam, where religion gives legitimacy to the government and state-appointed clerics set rules for social behavior, a growing number of Saudis are privately declaring themselves atheists.
The evidence is anecdotal, but persistent.
I know at least six atheists who confirmed that to me, said Fahad AlFahad, 31, a marketing consultant and human rights activist. Six or seven years ago, I wouldnt even have heard one person say that. Not even a best friend would confess that to me.
A Saudi journalist in Riyadh has observed the same trend.
The idea of being irreligious and even atheist is spreading because of the contradiction between what Islamists say and what they do, he said.
The perception that atheism is no longer a taboo subject at least two Gulf-produced television talk shows recently discussed it may explain why the government has made talk of atheism a terrorist offense. The March 7 decree from the Ministry of Interior prohibited, among other things, calling for atheist thought in any form, or calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based.
The number of people willing to admit to friends to being atheist or to declare themselves atheist online, usually under aliases, is certainly not big enough to be a movement or threaten the government. A 2012 poll by WIN-Gallup International of about 500 Saudis found that 5 percent described themselves as convinced atheist. This was well below the global average of 13 percent.
But the greater willingness to privately admit to being atheist reflects a general disillusionment with religion and what one Saudi called a growing notion that religion is being misused by authorities to control the population. This disillusionment is seen in a number of ways, ranging from ignoring clerical pronouncements to challenging and even mocking religious leaders on social media.
Because people are becoming more disillusioned with the government, they started looking at the government and its support groups as being in bed together and conspiring together against the good of the people, said Bassim Alim, a lawyer in Jeddah.
When they see the ulema [religious scholars] appeasing the government, he added, people become dismayed because they thought they were pious and straightforward and just.
I believe people started being fed up with how religion is really controlling their life and how only one interpretation of religion should be followed, said activist Fahad AlFahad.
Together, the appearance of atheists, a growing wariness of religious controls on society, as well as the continuing lure of jihad and ultraconservatism signal a breakdown in the conformity and consensus that has marked the Saudi religious field in the recent past. It is becoming a more heterogenous and polarized faith scene.
The mosques are full but society is losing its values. Its more like a mechanical practice, like going church, you have to go on Sunday, said a former employee of state media. We no longer understand our religion, not because we dont want to. But because our vision of it, our understanding of it, has been polluted by the monarchy[and]by the official religious establishment that only measures religion by what the monarchy wants and what pleases the monarchy.
The growing skepticism about religion and clerics is more visible nowadays because of social media outlets, including tweets, blogs and Facebook pages.
Here are three illustrative tweets from Saudis:
Prince Abdul Aziz bin Fahad has been tweeting nonstop abt God. I pity his disconnectedness from todays public. Its not the 1980s. Pathetic
Because our illusion that our version of Islam is the only correct one needs to be washed away
Could the ulema issue a fatwa against domestic violence? I mean the fatwa committee has prohibited playing Resident Evil
At the same time, however, there is a countervailing trend in that some young Saudis are joining radical Islamist and jihadi movements, a trend reinforced by the war in Syria.
When the Arab Spring started, young religious people were asking about Islam and democracy, said Saud Al Sarhan, director of research at the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh. But now they are just asking about Islam and jihad, after what is going on in Syria.
This attraction towards militant ultraconservatism is also apparent in the activities of unregulated religious vigilantes. Even as the governments own religious police have come under stricter controls, these bands of young religious volunteers attack social gatherings to stop what they deem as prohibited activities, including music, dancing and gender mixing. In one famous incident in 2012, these volunteers raided the annual government-sponsored cultural festival known as Janadriya, where they clashed with security forces.
It is still dangerous to publicly admit one is an atheist because of the dire punishment one can face from a court system based on sharia, which regards disbelief in God as a capital offense.
In addition, conservative clerics who have considerable sway among Saudis, use the label atheist to discredit those who question their strict interpretations of Islamic scriptures or express doubts about the dominant version of Islam known as Wahhabism.
That is what happened with 25-year-old Hamza Kashgari who in 2012 tweeted some unconventional thoughts about Prophet Muhammad, none of which indicated he did not believe in God. Still, he was called atheist and to appease the religious establishment, the government jailed him for 20 months.
Also, Raef Badawi, in his early 30s, was accused of being atheist because he called for freedom to discuss other versions of Islam besides Wahhabism on the website Free Saudi Liberals. Badawi was sentenced to seven years in prison and 600 lashes in July 2013. His lawyer, Waleed Abu Alkhair, a human rights activist who also has been jailed, said Badawi told the court that he was a Muslim but added that everyone has a choice to believe or not believe, the BBC reported.
A Riyadh resident who has extensive contacts with young Saudis because of his job in higher education said that he tries to warn young people that they are living according to an Islam constructed by the government, and not according to the Islam given us by God.
Increasingly, he said, some youths are going to ignore religion and become atheist, while others are going to understand the game.
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joffer
Footballguy
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I've been familiar with Richard Carrier's writing since way, way, way back on usenet. I've generally found his arguments persuasive, but I lack the expertise to verify the facts he bases those arguments on, and I tend to buy into contrarian ideas a bit too easily sometimes.
I haven't read any of his books, but I should probably put that on my to-do list.
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CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
I watched and it was worth the 45 min investment. I already knew that there is little evidence outside of the gospels to support Jesus as a historical figure, but what struck me was his alternate theory for how the legend grew seemed to explain the data every bit as well. Did he reach a bit here and there? Sure. But so do all historians who study this. There simply isn't enough information available to ultimately PROVE it either way.
cstu
Footballguy
Does he talk about the Roman historian Tacitus? While Tacitus could have simply been repeating stories told by Christians he was a respected historian who consulted multiple sources. Tacitus was born 20-ish years after the presumed death of Jesus so he wasn't too far removed from the crucifixion.
I don't know if he talked about Tacitus in that video (I got distracted earlier), but he's written a journal article on the subject.
matuski
Footballguy
He does not address Tacitus, unless his contributions are covered under "best efforts".cstu said:
As an aside - saying someone born 20 years after the fact is isn't far removed like saying someone born in the 70' (me) isn't far removed from McCarthyism or someone born today isn't far removed from the Cold War or the invention of the Internet.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I have always assumed there was a guy namedh Jesus who was one of the many apocalyptic preachers roaming the area at the time that the mythology was built on. But he makes an excellent case against that and now I'm not so sure.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Yeah, agreed. I watched as well and I had always been of the opinion that Jesus did exist as a human, but the argument he makes is compelling. I was especially interested in the bit about Christ being included in Josephus' writings after the fact. That had been a cornerstone of my belief of his existence and it makes me wonder what evidence he has to back that up (he said its in his book iirc).
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Both can be true. How much is necessary to be true for an historical Jesus to have existed? His name? Parents' names? Where he was born? Quotes attributed to him? The less strict you are the greater the possibility that one or more historical Jesuses existed.
onionsack
Footballguy
Here's another good discussion. It's just amazing to me that in 2015 millions of people can still be fawning over the pope and falling for this nearly 2,000 year old scam. It's managed to survive the Age of Reason...Darwin...you'd think the revelation that Jesus is as real as Harry Potter and Paul Bunyan would spell the end of it, but it's been astonishingly resilient..
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Intellectual laziness and fear of the afterlife. Religion addresses these two conditions perfectly. Just show up every week, believe in our fairy tales and we'll tell you what to think and you won't go to hell. Plus it's social and there's coffee and doughnuts.
matuski
Footballguy
It is a little annoying to me that these guys with PhD's are the ones that have to argue against the evidence provided regarding Christianity (or any religion).
I am every bit the authority on this as anyone (so would anyone else be). You don't have to write a thesis/book or be able to reference peer reviewed studies in order to soundly rebut any argument that I have ever seen for the existence of an invisible zombie god..
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NCCommish
Footballguy
Some people need the fantasy. As long as they use it to do good and it makes them feel good I say go for it. It's when they want to use the fantasy to control other people or justify hate that the problems begin.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
We really need to change the title of this thread. It's gone in the complete opposite direction of the OP's original intent.
Yeah, that was a good one.onionsack said:
cstu
Footballguy
If a person named Jesus didn't exist how did so many people start spreading (roughly) the same message at the same time? I find it hard to believe that a group of people got together and decided to manufacture a religion. More likely IMO that there was an actual person the religion was based on, maybe even John the Baptist who was renamed Jesus.
cstu
Footballguy
Sure sounds like Jesus to me and that is more than has been written by a historian at the time than Jesus.
John the Apostle, Jesus' "beloved disciple", was a follower of John the Baptist before he followed Jesus. It's possible that John the Baptist was transformed into the Jesus character or there was a real Jesus who was a follower of John the Baptist and spread his teachings.
matuski
Footballguy
I was referring to Carrier and friends going to these lengths in their research to provide an argument that a guy didn't actually walk on water. Breaking down verse after verse of the Bible with impressive ability.NCCommish said:
The research and information is interesting, but I almost feel that through these efforts they are affording the argument that a man did walk on water too much credit.
I have posted the message you wrote here over and over myself.. couldn't agree more.
BeaverCleaver
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
Jayrok
Footballguy
I've read Carrier's book, On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt.
It isn't a quick read and has tons of material that covers about all the areas surrounding the historicity debate. Carrier makes compelling arguments, imo, and I think it is worth the read.
Jayrok
Footballguy
Several years ago an Internet apologist wrote a book called The Impossible Faith where the case was presented that the overwhelming success of Christianity could not be possible unless it is true (the gospel stories of Jesus). Richard Carrier wrote a book to rebut this claim called Not the Impossible Faith.
I believe more has to do with the culture and environment of the day than whether a man named Jesus, who claimed to be the son of God, actually existed in Judea. In either case, the figure that became the Jesus (God encarnate) that is worshipped in churches today, is not the same figure that walked and preached an apocalyptic message in first century Palestine.
Could the religion have started with a historical figure? of course. It could also have started, and had much success, with a mythical figure.
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
"Nothing" to see here:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/612340/Origin-of-the-universe-riddle-solved-by-Canadian-physicists-and-er-it-wasn-t-God
Seriously.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/612340/Origin-of-the-universe-riddle-solved-by-Canadian-physicists-and-er-it-wasn-t-God
Seriously.
cstu
Footballguy
CowboysFromHell
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
joffer
Footballguy
Reading or listening to Cruz usually makes me mad at first. But then I remember his father, and realize he didn't have much of a chance. Then I feel sorry for him.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Captain Cranks
Footballguy
Agreed. I was a bit underwhelmed to say the least. I assume if I read his books I'd have a better respect for the conclusions he's drawn, but the arguments he makes in the presentation feel very shallow.
