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The bolded is all I take issue with. And for the record, most Pats fans are definitely NOT saying he's overrated or has only won because of his defense. That was primarily the contention of The Westin, who should probably change his username to The Motel 6, because his has been some 1 star posting in this thread.
Pretty well set, but heard my local just got in the annual shipment of Troegs Nugget Necter Imperial IPA. So I might have to make a trip. Though I do hate to be picking up a Pennsylvania product.:( andYou've got 26 minutes before you begin drinking heavily. Are you fully equipped?
Pretty well set, but heard my local just got in the annual shipment of Troegs Nugget Necter Imperial IPA. So I might have to make a trip. Though I do hate to be picking up a Pennsylvania product.:( and
Drink 2 Natty Bohs for each Troegs.... represent.
He's just about dead even with where Brady was at this point of his career. The stats are fairly even, the SB's are 3-2, etc. Ben 2004-2010 is a very fair comparison to Brady 2001 - 2006. Now, we've seen Brady go from that level of production to NFL record levels from 2007 - 2010. That is where the separation between the two lie. Can/Will Ben elevate his game to be widely regarded as an all time great, and have both the stats and wins to back it up? Thats tough to say. Personally, I doubt he will, because the Steelers won't become a pass first offense to generate the kind of stats necessary to set records, and I think its likely that if he continues to hang in the pocket and take the hits he does now, his play will drop off rather than elevate over the next 3 - 5 years. He takes too much of a beating for it to not take its toll. He's a tough SOB, but continually taking a pounding can't be good for longevity.
x 2. Steelers have always been, and will always likely be, a team that attempts to win via the ground game first and only resorts to 35-40 attempt games (that Brady has on a regular basis) from Ben if they have no other options. And I doubt his career will last as long, for the exact reasons given.
No, you are for the 18th time missing my main point, which is that no other QB has been aided more, when it comes to wins and losses, than Roethlisberger over the last decade. Not sure how that can be argued. If you want to twist it to where you think my main point is that the defense is a large reason why Roethlisberger has such a good winning percentage, that is on you, but need I remind you that I have long been a defender of Roethlisberger's play? Heck, three or four years ago, when many were still calling him merely a game manager (which I still don't see as an insult, but every Steeler fan in the world did), I was one of the few non-Steelers fans who was calling him a very good/great QB and talking about how good he was in the clutch. Also, saying...
...really? That is not THE job of the QB (meaning not the most important job, as your wording implies). The job of the TEAM is to outscore the other team, not just one player. Saying what you said implies that a QB who led his team to 10 points in a 10-3 win did a better job than a QB who led his team to 35 points in a 42-35 loss. That just doesn't make sense. When your defense is consistently holding opponents to low points, it makes a QB's job easier, as he doesn't have to press as much because he is always trailing or always thinking he has to score 30+ points to win.
Agree about the bolded, but your statement that Roethlisberger is "not a timing passer" isn't 100% accurate, IMO. He is not often asked to make those passes, but that's part of Bruce Aryan's offense. When he does need to make quick, accurate throws, he has been effective in doing so.The fact that his career completion % is the same as Brady's, despite playing in a vertical passing offense, demonstrates that he is just as accurate as Brady, if not more so.Road Warriors said:
Perhaps your problem is that you simply don't respect Roethlisberger?It's been posted MANY TIMES in this very thread that Roethlisberger's stats are comparable to Brady's after 7 seasons. It's been pointed out MANY TIMES in this very thread that Brady has enjoyed the same benefit of a top defense as Roethlisberger has, yet you continue to use that as a ways of discrediting Roethlisberger.
Absolutely.If you ignore the stats, wins, SBs, and FACTS, there is no way Roethlisberger is on the same level as any of those guys.
1. in the 3 games leading up to his first super bowl win (bengals, colts, broncos. ALL on the road) ben had qb ratings of 148, 95, and 124, 7 TDs to 1 INT, and a YPA of 9. the steelers took the lead with passing and then ran it out from there. ben was the reason they got to the super bowl. yes, he had a really bad game in the super bowl, but he was every bit as good as brady in 07 in those 3 games. as a steeler fan i was shocked at how good he was. 2. out of brady's 18 playoff games, he has only 6 games above 92 for qb rating...the same as ben...in 7 fewer games. career playoff YPA Brady 6.45Roethlisberger 7.95 this isn't even closecareer playoff QB ratingBrady 85.5Roethlisberger 88.7career playoff TD/INTBrady 28/15Roethlisberger 17/12 edge:bradycareer playoff recordBrady 14-4Roethlisberger 9-2 edge: brady. 3 rings trumps 2. if the steelers had ben in the 90's they would have won 3-4 super bowls instead of going 0-3 in AFC championship games. THAT defense was even better.
ben's pass attempts extrapolated from 12 games this year to 16 = 519brady threw the ball 492 times.do you actually watch pats games OR steeler games?edit: steelers have run more than they've passed only once since arians became OC, and that was in his first year at the position.turn on the tv if you can't make it to the game.x 2. Steelers have always been, and will always likely be, a team that attempts to win via the ground game first and only resorts to 35-40 attempt games (that Brady has on a regular basis) from Ben if they have no other options. And I doubt his career will last as long, for the exact reasons given.
Hey, before you start getting all sorts of abrasive, how about you stop cherry picking your stats? We're talking about careers here, not one season. This season, Brady had his second lowest # of pass attempts per game since 2001, the first season he started all 16 games. Brady has had 500 pass attempts in 6 of the 8 seasons in which he started 16 games, including one of over 600 attempts. He averages 32.5 att/gm for his career. The year in which he broke the TD record, he threw 578 times. Roethlisberger has had exactly 1 season of over 500 attempts - last season's 506, and averages barely 28 att/game for his career. His extrapolated 512 attempts this year represents his career high in att/gm, but would have ranked 7th of the 9 years Brady has played 16 games. Also, his career high of this year, 32 att/gm, isn't the 35-40 that I referenced. Brady's averaged 35-40 att/gm in 2 of the past 3 seasons (excepting the year he got hurt in wk 1) and 3 times for his career. So, where exactly were we wrong?And NO team in today's NFL runs more than they pass. Just because you have more passing attempts than rushing attempts doesn't mean you're not a ground-based attack. Since Roethlisberger joined the team, the Steelers have the highest % of run to pass plays of any team in the NFL.This discussion was centered around whether Ben would put up huge statistical seasons like Brady has in the past. The answer is probably not, because there's not a huge likelihood that he'll ever throw the ball as much consistently as Brady has in the past. On a per play basis, Brady averages 7.4 yards per attempt and has a 5.5% TD percentage. Ben carries an 8.0 yards per attempt and 5.1% TD percentage. That's a statistical dead heat on a per attempt basis, so their aggregate career stats compared will likely favor Brady based largely on more attempts. Brady also takes less hits in their timing offense, so he's probably more likely to play effectively at a more advanced age than Ben. I stand by myben's pass attempts extrapolated from 12 games this year to 16 = 519brady threw the ball 492 times.do you actually watch pats games OR steeler games?edit: steelers have run more than they've passed only once since arians became OC, and that was in his first year at the position.turn on the tv if you can't make it to the game.x 2. Steelers have always been, and will always likely be, a team that attempts to win via the ground game first and only resorts to 35-40 attempt games (that Brady has on a regular basis) from Ben if they have no other options. And I doubt his career will last as long, for the exact reasons given.
Here's a tip - if you're going to start acting condescending and dropping these "do you even watch the game?" bombs...1 - Quote the original post by the PATS FAN that I called a good post rather than simply attacking me for agreeing.2 - Understand the discussion that's being had and don't try to belittle others using stats that are hardly applicable to the question at hand.Oh, and I haven't missed a Steelers game in almost 20 years. 
the stats favor those other guys. team achievements leveraged by selective games favor roeth.will admit that brees regressed a bit this season and roeth may indeed be better next year. the other 3 arent really close.
playoff records
OK, so the stats do favor those guys. I see. Wait, no I don't; because you made a statement, but decided not to provide any support for your position. I'll do the work for you.I've already posted how Roethlisberger is definitely on the same level as Brady after their 1st 7 years in the league, so I'm not going to re-post that. Look through this thread for that info.cvnpoka said:
OK, so wins aren't how you measure QBs, and "counting stats are a poor way to measure." How do you suggest QBs should be rated/evaluated/measured, if not by wins or stats? What's left, BMI?
I believe if you gave Ben the 2007 Moss and Welker, and the Steelers went all out for passing records, Ben could throw more than 50 TDs. Ben has already been to and won SBs, so, all external things equal, I'd say Ben and Brady are on par.I still say Manning is better than both, and given either D and STs, would have more SB rings than the two combined.
You are kidding, right?
Brady didn't do that, he only set the record for most TD passes in a season (by just one TD, and it took him an extra game). Greatest single season by passer rating, which measures more than just TDs, goes to Peyton Manning.
if qb is the most important position on the field, how can a team constantly underachieve and still have a "great" qb?
Not getting back in this argument but tell me that throw to Antonio Brown on 3rd and 19 wasn't clutch. The game was tied at that point with the the ball on the Steelers 38. If the Steelers don't get that first down they have to punt the ball and give the ball to Baltimore with 2:00 and all three time outs and only needing 3 pts.
It may the most important position on offense, but it's just one component of 4 primary components that determine W-L ratio - offense, defense, special teams, coaching.No matter how great a QB is, if three of those four components don't hold up their end, the team isn't going to do well. See Peyton for most of his career, good enough to overcome weak coaching defenses and ST in the regular season but not in the playoffs. OTOH, take a look at the Rabens win a few years back, great in all aspects except Offense, and Trent Dilfer was QB, but they won a SB.Putting everything on the QB is extreme oversimplification.
The Steelers scored TDs in 4 of their 5 redzone opportunities... I'd say the offense had something to do with the win too.
You don't give up do you?Yes, the Steelers D played well, but they didn't hold the Ravens to FGs after the turnovers, and as a result the Steelers were down 21-7 at the half. Roethlisberger led his team back from that deficit. The running game wasn't great, and for a while, the O-line was down to 2 3rd-stringers at tackle. Not to mention that he led his team to the go-ahead TOUCHDOWN with only a few minutes left. The long completion on 3rd and long was beautiful. He couldn't have handed the ball off any better.
Again, Steelers fans are much too sensitive about Ben. He was good, but without a great defense they lose this game.
I'll agree with this.
I agree, if Ben has anything he has clutch skills. If people fail to appreciate that after the game winning drive that Ben orchestrated in SB XLIII, then let me remind them.http://static.steelers.com/mediacontent/20...LIII_108708.pdf
You could change that to Patriots and Brady and it would be equally 100% correct. I think Ben and Brady are pretty much on par with each other. In recent years Ben has been the better overall QB IMO.
I'm not a Steelers fan, but I am a football fan, and Ben is a great football player.This isn't about Steelers fan being too sensitive about Ben. This is a FF MB thread SPECIFICALLY about Roethlisberger and how he compares to Brady.You continue to post unsubstantiated crap (for lack of a better word) suggesting that Ben is vastly inferior to Brady, and then when stats, numbers, facts, (i.e.-substantiated data) are posted to prove you wrong, you ignore it and then post more unsubstantiated crap. Then you whine that Steelers fans are "too sensitive" because they continue to prove you wrong.You say Ben was good, but without a great defense, they lose the game.2 points-1-Ben wasn't good, he was VERY good, borderline great. He had a QB rating of 101.8, threw 2 TDs, led his team to the game winning TD (including one of the best, CLUTCH passes you'll ever see), led his team back from down 2 TDs in the 2nd half, and did all of this without a running game (only 60 yards) against a GREAT defense. The only reason he didn't put up more yards is because he didn't get 40+ pass attempts like Brady did. 2-The Steelers defense was great (although a truly great defense holds the Ravens to FG instead of TDs after the turnovers), but without a great Roethlisberger, they lose the game.
This post, with very few modifications, could have been made with regards to Tom Brady before 2007, with regards to the Brady v Manning debate. Brady, prior to the 2007 season didn't put up great numbers, and was seen as an inferior QB to Manning who happened to have better coaching, defense, place-kicker, etc. These arguments were often made on these (actually the old) boards by people who used FF numbers to discuss REAL-LIFE QBs. Those who paid more attention, often the NE homers, understood better than those who were more FF-centric.
I don't know how many times in this thread I said Ben was a good quarterback and that he was clutch. I didn't need his 3rd and 19 this week to prove that, we've all seen it. I'm not debating that. I'm also not debating that he is better than Stewart, Maddox, or O'Donnel. Again I understand his stats are similar to Brady's at this point in their careers. My point was:1- Teams win Super Bowls, not quarterbacks. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of a great QB. But without the best defense in the league, Ben has 1 maybe 0 Superbowls. The Super Bowl argument to me is what really gets me, it really annoys me. Not just with Ben but in general. We can't blame Ben for consistently having a top 3 defense. I can give him credit for a good game yesterday, while at the same time wondering if Pitt wins that game with a lesser defense. If the Ravens put up more than 120 yds of total offense...does Baltimore win? Most would say yes. Does Pittsburgh win if Ben doesn't play so well? Most would say no. Hence, it is a TEAM game. So just because a TEAM wins the Super Bowl, it doesn't mean the QUARTERBACK did it single handedly. 2- Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30 years old from game manager to elite quarterback. If you think Roeth has done that, then so be it.
No one is disputing it is a team sport. Of course the Steelers defense is hugely responsible for the victory but QBs normally handle every offensive snap and typically have the greatest impact on more plays of his team than any other individual player. They, like pitchers in baseball and goalies in hockey, often are evaluated on winning percentage. Even a pitcher that wins a no-hitter or a goalie that has a shutout didn't win the game single handedly. I am curious if you are just as bothered when a pitcher is referred to as a 20-game winner?
I can't stand baseball so I don't really care. I would say it's different though. Football is much more of a team sport than either hockey, baseball, or basketball. I don't think the comparison of a Pitcher to a Quarterback are the same. A pitcher can singlehandedly win a game for a team by throwing a no-hitter. A quarterback relies on a decent running game, receivers to catch the ball and get open, an offenseive line to block, his special teams to put them in good field position, and a defense to stop the opponent. There is just so much that goes in to winning a football game, it bothers me to give one guy credit.
