Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (1 Viewer)

[Godsbrother]

A pitcher can singlehandedly win a game for a team by throwing a no-hitter.

You obviously don't watch baseball so I am just going to drop it.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I don't know how many times in this thread I said Ben was a good quarterback and that he was clutch. I didn't need his 3rd and 19 this week to prove that, we've all seen it. I'm not debating that. I'm also not debating that he is better than Stewart, Maddox, or O'Donnel. Again I understand his stats are similar to Brady's at this point in their careers. My point was:1- Teams win Super Bowls, not quarterbacks. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of a great QB. But without the best defense in the league, Ben has 1 maybe 0 Superbowls. The Super Bowl argument to me is what really gets me, it really annoys me. Not just with Ben but in general. We can't blame Ben for consistently having a top 3 defense. I can give him credit for a good game yesterday, while at the same time wondering if Pitt wins that game with a lesser defense. If the Ravens put up more than 120 yds of total offense...does Baltimore win? Most would say yes. Does Pittsburgh win if Ben doesn't play so well? Most would say no. Hence, it is a TEAM game. So just because a TEAM wins the Super Bowl, it doesn't mean the QUARTERBACK did it single handedly. 2- Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30 years old from game manager to elite quarterback. If you think Roeth has done that, then so be it.

I also have always said Roethlisberger is clutch, but to show how dangerous it can be to overrate a QB based on how much his team wins in the postseason, consider that Joe Flacco has won four playoff games (all on the road) in the last three postseasons. Now, go and see what his numbers are in those games. Granted, Roethlisberger's numbers aren't nearly that putrid, but it does show that, while having a good QB is super important when it comes to sustained postseason success, the QB is not the end-all be-all who deserves all of the praise when they win or all of the blame when they lose.

 

[Bayhawks]

Again, Steelers fans are much too sensitive about Ben. He was good, but without a great defense they lose this game.

I'm not a Steelers fan, but I am a football fan, and Ben is a great football player.This isn't about Steelers fan being too sensitive about Ben. This is a FF MB thread SPECIFICALLY about Roethlisberger and how he compares to Brady.You continue to post unsubstantiated crap (for lack of a better word) suggesting that Ben is vastly inferior to Brady, and then when stats, numbers, facts, (i.e.-substantiated data) are posted to prove you wrong, you ignore it and then post more unsubstantiated crap. Then you whine that Steelers fans are "too sensitive" because they continue to prove you wrong.You say Ben was good, but without a great defense, they lose the game.2 points-1-Ben wasn't good, he was VERY good, borderline great. He had a QB rating of 101.8, threw 2 TDs, led his team to the game winning TD (including one of the best, CLUTCH passes you'll ever see), led his team back from down 2 TDs in the 2nd half, and did all of this without a running game (only 60 yards) against a GREAT defense. The only reason he didn't put up more yards is because he didn't get 40+ pass attempts like Brady did. 2-The Steelers defense was great (although a truly great defense holds the Ravens to FG instead of TDs after the turnovers), but without a great Roethlisberger, they lose the game.

I don't know how many times in this thread I said Ben was a good quarterback and that he was clutch. I didn't need his 3rd and 19 this week to prove that, we've all seen it. I'm not debating that. I'm also not debating that he is better than Stewart, Maddox, or O'Donnel. Again I understand his stats are similar to Brady's at this point in their careers. My point was:1- Teams win Super Bowls, not quarterbacks. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of a great QB. But without the best defense in the league, Ben has 1 maybe 0 Superbowls. The Super Bowl argument to me is what really gets me, it really annoys me. Not just with Ben but in general. We can't blame Ben for consistently having a top 3 defense. I can give him credit for a good game yesterday, while at the same time wondering if Pitt wins that game with a lesser defense. If the Ravens put up more than 120 yds of total offense...does Baltimore win? Most would say yes. Does Pittsburgh win if Ben doesn't play so well? Most would say no. Hence, it is a TEAM game. So just because a TEAM wins the Super Bowl, it doesn't mean the QUARTERBACK did it single handedly. 2- Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30 years old from game manager to elite quarterback. If you think Roeth has done that, then so be it.

Wow, you're really bad at this.Yes, teams win SBs, but the Steelers don't win either SB without Ben as their QB. In XL, they don't get to the SB without him carrying them on his back in the playoffs. And in XLIII, they don't win the SB without Ben's game-winning drive. Would they have won either SB if other key players weren't there? No, but Ben was a HUGE part in both SB wins.And, without the top-5 Patriots defenses of his SB years, Brady doesn't have 3 SB rings either. The argument swings both ways.The stats, as I've shown (and you've conveniently ignored, because they prove you wrong) show that Roethlisberger is just as good as Brady was at this point in his career. Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30, well maybe we should wait and see what Roethlisberger does, because he still has many years left.The wins are comparable, the SBs are comparable, and the stats are comparable. Therefore, the QBs are comparable. Maybe you should just admit it, because you continue to make yourself look foolish with these weak arguments.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I definitely think it is funny when people trash Roethlisberger for his terrible play in his first Super Bowl, while ignoring how great he was in the three AFC playoff games. Sure, they won in spite of him in the Super Bowl, but without him, they don't get there.

I think some are simply waiting for him to make a playoff run where he is lights out in every game, similar to how Brees was last year. I think that is what it will take for some to admit that he is as good as others say he is.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

FWIW, I was listening to Sirius NFL radio on the way into work this AM and they were going over the top 5 QBs in the game, and both hosts (Ryan/Kirwin maybe?) said Ben was #3 behind Brady and Manning, which is really where he deserves to be rated, IMO.

No question. Now if he wins SB #3 at 28 he's certainly in the mix with Brady and Manning. I think he's HOF material at that point. Maybe I'm a homer but I wouldn't trade Ben for any other player in the NFL today. There's no QB I'd prefer with the game on the line.

 

[12punch]

And NO team in today's NFL runs more than they pass.

Incorrect

 

[Evilgrin 72]

And NO team in today's NFL runs more than they pass.

Incorrect

Not on a year-in, year-out basis. Over the past 9 years, 39 teams have run more than they've passed, a 13.5% rate. It's very uncommon, is what I'm saying, and no one does it consistently any more - it's usually to allow for a rookie QB. I think the Steelers lead the NFL over that span with 3 out of 9 teams that registered more runs than passes. I read recently that over the last decade, they're pretty far out in front in terms of aggregate run/pass ratio, so the point should be well-taken.

 

[LTF]

Ben Roethlisberger's last 2 seasons:

577-895, 64% completion rate, 7,528 yards, 278.8 yards passing per game, 8.4 YPA, 47 total TDs, 17 INTs, 98.9 QB rating.

One win away from his third SB appearance.

And he's 28 years old.

If only he were elite! And at one point Saturday, they had a guy who was their third string RG in preseason at RT, and another backup guard who was benched earlier this season at LT. Against Suggs, Ngata, and company. No sweat though.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

A pitcher can singlehandedly win a game for a team by throwing a no-hitter.

Wrong.

 

[CrossEyed]

A pitcher can singlehandedly win a game for a team by throwing a no-hitter.

Wrong.

Theoretically, he could strike out 27. But I guess he still needs a catcher to do that.

 

[The Westin]

Again, Steelers fans are much too sensitive about Ben. He was good, but without a great defense they lose this game.

I'm not a Steelers fan, but I am a football fan, and Ben is a great football player.This isn't about Steelers fan being too sensitive about Ben. This is a FF MB thread SPECIFICALLY about Roethlisberger and how he compares to Brady.You continue to post unsubstantiated crap (for lack of a better word) suggesting that Ben is vastly inferior to Brady, and then when stats, numbers, facts, (i.e.-substantiated data) are posted to prove you wrong, you ignore it and then post more unsubstantiated crap. Then you whine that Steelers fans are "too sensitive" because they continue to prove you wrong.You say Ben was good, but without a great defense, they lose the game.2 points-1-Ben wasn't good, he was VERY good, borderline great. He had a QB rating of 101.8, threw 2 TDs, led his team to the game winning TD (including one of the best, CLUTCH passes you'll ever see), led his team back from down 2 TDs in the 2nd half, and did all of this without a running game (only 60 yards) against a GREAT defense. The only reason he didn't put up more yards is because he didn't get 40+ pass attempts like Brady did. 2-The Steelers defense was great (although a truly great defense holds the Ravens to FG instead of TDs after the turnovers), but without a great Roethlisberger, they lose the game.

I don't know how many times in this thread I said Ben was a good quarterback and that he was clutch. I didn't need his 3rd and 19 this week to prove that, we've all seen it. I'm not debating that. I'm also not debating that he is better than Stewart, Maddox, or O'Donnel. Again I understand his stats are similar to Brady's at this point in their careers. My point was:1- Teams win Super Bowls, not quarterbacks. Don't get me wrong, I understand the importance of a great QB. But without the best defense in the league, Ben has 1 maybe 0 Superbowls. The Super Bowl argument to me is what really gets me, it really annoys me. Not just with Ben but in general. We can't blame Ben for consistently having a top 3 defense. I can give him credit for a good game yesterday, while at the same time wondering if Pitt wins that game with a lesser defense. If the Ravens put up more than 120 yds of total offense...does Baltimore win? Most would say yes. Does Pittsburgh win if Ben doesn't play so well? Most would say no. Hence, it is a TEAM game. So just because a TEAM wins the Super Bowl, it doesn't mean the QUARTERBACK did it single handedly. 2- Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30 years old from game manager to elite quarterback. If you think Roeth has done that, then so be it.

Wow, you're really bad at this.Yes, teams win SBs, but the Steelers don't win either SB without Ben as their QB. In XL, they don't get to the SB without him carrying them on his back in the playoffs. And in XLIII, they don't win the SB without Ben's game-winning drive. Would they have won either SB if other key players weren't there? No, but Ben was a HUGE part in both SB wins.And, without the top-5 Patriots defenses of his SB years, Brady doesn't have 3 SB rings either. The argument swings both ways.The stats, as I've shown (and you've conveniently ignored, because they prove you wrong) show that Roethlisberger is just as good as Brady was at this point in his career. Brady took a HUGE jump when he was 30, well maybe we should wait and see what Roethlisberger does, because he still has many years left.The wins are comparable, the SBs are comparable, and the stats are comparable. Therefore, the QBs are comparable. Maybe you should just admit it, because you continue to make yourself look foolish with these weak arguments.

I acknowledged his stats were similar to Brady's at this point.I added Brady, to many, was a game manager at that point in his career. It's what he did afterwards, even without winning Super Bowls, that made it impossible to ignore he was more than a game manager.I said that Ben, in my eyes, hasn't done that yet. I would find it hard to argue that.I agree, let's wait and see what Ben does. If he makes the leap that Brady made...of course I'll think Ben is one of the best ever. But as of right now he hasn't done that.Now what exactly is foolish about that?

 

[The Westin]

A pitcher can singlehandedly win a game for a team by throwing a no-hitter.

Wrong.

Theoretically, he could strike out 27. But I guess he still needs a catcher to do that.

Ha, ya you guys are right...can't do it alone. My point was that football is much more of a team game.

 

[Fensalk]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

 

[12punch]

And NO team in today's NFL runs more than they pass.

Incorrect

Not on a year-in, year-out basis. Over the past 9 years, 39 teams have run more than they've passed, a 13.5% rate. It's very uncommon, is what I'm saying, and no one does it consistently any more - it's usually to allow for a rookie QB. I think the Steelers lead the NFL over that span with 3 out of 9 teams that registered more runs than passes. I read recently that over the last decade, they're pretty far out in front in terms of aggregate run/pass ratio, so the point should be well-taken.

That was really a minor point, but you seemed so sure of your opinion that you needed to use that all caps NO. I just think it's illustrative of how things don't really match up with the clichés once you actually examine them. I think the case you're trying to make is that going fwd Brady will throw the ball so much more than Ben because the Steelers love to run, butwhat you need to explain is what relevance 10 years ago has with next year --- you might as well go back to the 70s to make your case. Arians is more of a passing guy than a running guy, and as a Steeler fan I'm sure you know that. In 2010, i think #teelers ranked 8th in rush attempts with the Pats 1 att/game behind them in 10th. The year before, Pats again ranked 10th with Steelers 18th, and 2008 had the Pats 4th with Steelers 9th. Despite what happened 10, 20, or 30 years ago the recent trend is that Ben won't be throwing much less than Brady the next few years, if he throws less at all.

 

[steelcityman]

Ben is as good as Brady, and might be better. Tommy boy caves at the sign of sack pressure, Ben makes plays when surrounded by Suggs, Lewis, Ngata, etc.

 

[cvnpoka]

team wins and counting stats are a poor way to measure. career stats skew the picture even more since we are discussing who is better right now.

OK, so wins aren't how you measure QBs, and "counting stats are a poor way to measure." How do you suggest QBs should be rated/evaluated/measured, if not by wins or stats? What's left, BMI?

per pass metrics

 

[timschochet]

What nobody's mentioned here is how lucky Big Ben has been to have been drafted by the Steelers, which the NFL has designated as the team it most wants to win. It's great to be a QB on a team which has help from referees in every major game!

 

[CrossEyed]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

ORLY?

 

[Godsbrother]

What nobody's mentioned here is how lucky Big Ben has been to have been drafted by the Steelers, which the NFL has designated as the team it most wants to win. It's great to be a QB on a team which has help from referees in every major game!

It wasn't luck, the NFL fixed it so Roethlisberger would be drafted by the Steelers.

 

[bryhamm]

What nobody's mentioned here is how lucky Big Ben has been to have been drafted by the Steelers, which the NFL has designated as the team it most wants to win. It's great to be a QB on a team which has help from referees in every major game!

It wasn't luck, the NFL fixed it so Roethlisberger would be drafted by the Steelers.

It's well documented that there were 11 teams that wanted to take Ben before PIT, but were forced to not draft him in order for him to slide all the way to PIT.Ironically, the league stepped in again when it asked the Ravens to injure Maddox so that PIT would be forced to publicly thrust him into the limelight ... something they were against.

 

[David Yudkin]

Ben Roethlisberger's last 2 seasons:577-895, 64% completion rate, 7,528 yards, 278.8 yards passing per game, 8.4 YPA, 47 total TDs, 17 INTs, 98.9 QB rating. One win away from his third SB appearance. And he's 28 years old. If only he were elite! And at one point Saturday, they had a guy who was their third string RG in preseason at RT, and another backup guard who was benched earlier this season at LT. Against Suggs, Ngata, and company. No sweat though.

I'be already given my opinion that Big Ben should be in the discussion with the other guys. That being said, it's not like he's been lapping other QBs even though his numbers have been very good the past 2 seasons.Roethisberger in that time has ranked 8th in passing yardage, 14th in passing TD, 2nd in YPA, and 6th in passer rating. If the Steelers don't win next week, he really hasn't improved his standing much over the past two seasons vs. the other top QBs. No shame in that either.

 

[Hang 10]

What nobody's mentioned here is how lucky Big Ben has been to have been drafted by the Steelers, which the NFL has designated as the team it most wants to win. It's great to be a QB on a team which has help from referees in every major game!

The only situation better would be if some how Ben knew what plays the defense were calling!

 

[Evilgrin 72]

And NO team in today's NFL runs more than they pass.

Incorrect

Not on a year-in, year-out basis. Over the past 9 years, 39 teams have run more than they've passed, a 13.5% rate. It's very uncommon, is what I'm saying, and no one does it consistently any more - it's usually to allow for a rookie QB. I think the Steelers lead the NFL over that span with 3 out of 9 teams that registered more runs than passes. I read recently that over the last decade, they're pretty far out in front in terms of aggregate run/pass ratio, so the point should be well-taken.

That was really a minor point, but you seemed so sure of your opinion that you needed to use that all caps NO. I just think it's illustrative of how things don't really match up with the clichés once you actually examine them. I think the case you're trying to make is that going fwd Brady will throw the ball so much more than Ben because the Steelers love to run, butwhat you need to explain is what relevance 10 years ago has with next year --- you might as well go back to the 70s to make your case. Arians is more of a passing guy than a running guy, and as a Steeler fan I'm sure you know that. In 2010, i think #teelers ranked 8th in rush attempts with the Pats 1 att/game behind them in 10th. The year before, Pats again ranked 10th with Steelers 18th, and 2008 had the Pats 4th with Steelers 9th. Despite what happened 10, 20, or 30 years ago the recent trend is that Ben won't be throwing much less than Brady the next few years, if he throws less at all.

The periods of time chosen for my stats were the best available. Data dominator only goes back to 2002, and the run/pass stat I saw on television (IIRC) referenced the last decade. Any other period I may have chosen would have been even more arbitrary.The bottom line is that all I was attempting to illustrate is that you don't necessarily have to run more times than you pass to be a team "that relies on the run to win" anymore. You can have a 48/52 run/pass ratio and still be among the most run-heavy teams in the league.And we have no idea how long Arians is going to be around. The last 2 years, they certainly have thrown the ball a lot more often than they have historically, but we're talking about the identity of a team/franchise. Tomlin's "mission statement", for lack of a better term, was to "be a team that wins by attrition.... running the ball and stopping the run." That's what the franchise and the coach strive for. It's far more likely that they trend back that way than they turn into a 35-40 passes per game team. I tend to think that the current passing rate is about as high as it's going to get. But no one has a crystal ball, it's simply my feeling. I don't think Roethlisberger, once all is said and done, will have enough attempts relative to Brady to eclipse him in the "glamour stats." We've already established that their numbers on a per attempt basis are a virtual wash.

 

[Bayhawks]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

Huh, that sounds exactly like Roethlisberger. The only thing that doesn't really apply is the quick release. But since Roethlisberger has almost the exact same completion % and YPA as Rivers, I'd imagine that they'd have been just as successful as they've been with Rivers.

 

[Bayhawks]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

Wait, because the Patriots are no longer good enough to win SBs, Roethlisberger can't be on the same level as Brady? Look at the Steelers playoff runs since Roethlisberger came into the league. They played the Patriots ONE TIME, when Roethlisberger was a rookie. It's not like the Pats have beaten the Steelers 5 times. It's not Roethlisberger's fault that Brady hasn't been able to get the job done the last few years.

 

[cvnpoka]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

Huh, that sounds exactly like Roethlisberger. The only thing that doesn't really apply is the quick release. But since Roethlisberger has almost the exact same completion % and YPA as Rivers, I'd imagine that they'd have been just as successful as they've been with Rivers.

you continue to ignore sacks.

 

[12punch]

Lovie Smith still maintains the Bears are running off the bus --- coaches have been talking about running the ball since since the invention of football. It's what they do that matters, not what they say, and the current Steelers are no more or less a passing team than the current Pats ---- or at least in no statistically significant way.

 

[Fensalk]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

ORLY?

I didn't say the Chargers defense was awful but its lacking in areas. Try turnovers. The Steelers were top 5 this year in picks and fumbles. Chargers were almost at the bottom in fumbles and only middle of the pack in picks. That is significant.

 

[cvnpoka]

Lovie Smith still maintains the Bears are running off the bus --- coaches have been talking about running the ball since since the invention of football. It's what they do that matters, not what they say, and the current Steelers are no more or less a passing team than the current Pats ---- or at least in no statistically significant way.

the bears have been a running team since bye week. they went from 61/39 to 51/49.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Lovie Smith still maintains the Bears are running off the bus --- coaches have been talking about running the ball since since the invention of football. It's what they do that matters, not what they say, and the current Steelers are no more or less a passing team than the current Pats ---- or at least in no statistically significant way.

Understood, but Brady has had seasons of 570, 590, over 600 passing attempts. Maybe Roethlisberger will too in the upcoming years, but I tend to doubt it. You're taking a snapshot here - I'm looking at both the past and the future.

 

[PhD]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

This is really getting dumb. For God's sake in one of his SB years the Pats weren't even good enough to be in the playoffs and in the other they got whooped by the freaking Ravens who weren't good enough to beat the Steelers in the Championship. This whole debate makes me wonder -- why are the Patriot fans so sensitive about this comparison?

 

[CrossEyed]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

Wait, because the Patriots are no longer good enough to win SBs, Roethlisberger can't be on the same level as Brady? Look at the Steelers playoff runs since Roethlisberger came into the league. They played the Patriots ONE TIME, when Roethlisberger was a rookie. It's not like the Pats have beaten the Steelers 5 times. It's not Roethlisberger's fault that Brady hasn't been able to get the job done the last few years.

Looks to me like Brady is losing on purpose in the division round so he doesn't have to face Ben in the AFCCG. He knows the jig is up, and the news is out.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Just use your eyes peoplei understand steelers fans like Ben, but come on

so by using our eyes we are supposed to see what exactly... That Ben isn't as "pretty" of a QB or that he wins "ugly"?what are you really trying to say?Does he make all the throws.... YES.Does he come up big in the clutch.... YES.Is he married to a supermodel.... Heck NO.So Phillip Rivers looks better when he wins but Ben wins more and doesn't choke in the playoffs (Super Bowl XL was the exception).Use YOUR eyes manPerception is a biznatch sometimes. Perception says that Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have always been ridiculously poised and they never lose their cool under pressure while orchestrating every fine detail of their immaculate offenses.Perception for Ben is that he was given the keys to the Mercedes and asked not to let it wreck...He has done FAR more than that (especially in the Playoffs... you know.... when it MATTERS Peyton!!)Perception for Ben is that he's a game manager and that the team doesn't TRUST him enough to give him the Reigns like the Colts gave Manning and the Pats gave Brady.Reality tells you that with his Defense he doesn't need to put up 30 a game. It also tells you that when he needs to put up more pts.... he does. Just look at his best (statistical) season when the Defense was NOT what it normally is.Truth... I'd rather have Ben in the clutch over anybody else because he, unlike anybody else in this discussion, can make something happen when the play doesn't go his way. When things break down you WON'T see him curl up in the fetal position and you WON'T see him do what Brady did yesterday against the Jets by just standing there and not at least running for a few yds to set up an easier 4th down or whatever.I'm not saying he is Brady or Peyton but I'm saying he is in the discussion for that #3 spot and certainly in the top 5.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

You know, I really hope the Ravens win tomorrow. But if they don't, the liveliness of this debate in the week ahead will be a silver lining.

FWIW, I think the point of the original post was to point out that Ben isn't regarded at the same "elite" level as Brady, and yet the level of his play is very comparable. As a Ravens fan, I totally support that. Roethlisberger is an incredible QB (although he did lay a total stinker in the Super Bowl vs. Seattle). That being said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Brady is able to put up elite numbers for a greater number of years than Ben. So much of Ben's success stems from his ability to get away from tacklers and extend plays downfield - I have to think the wear and tear of that style will catch up with him eventually. Even if he's not injured, I'd be surprised if his body allows him to do in 5 years the kinds of things he can do now. Whereas Brady seems like he'll be able to keep going for a long time.

For the record, I think Brady is incredible, too. I've always though of him as kind of like Joe Montana, but with a stronger arm. It's not a coincidence that Bellichick's evolution from a lifelong .500 coach to the greatest genius of our time coincides with the emergence of one of the greatest QBs ever.

true... that and spygate

 

[Fensalk]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

This is really getting dumb. For God's sake in one of his SB years the Pats weren't even good enough to be in the playoffs and in the other they got whooped by the freaking Ravens who weren't good enough to beat the Steelers in the Championship. This whole debate makes me wonder -- why are the Patriot fans so sensitive about this comparison?

Some people just think that way. It was the same for Peyton Manning. He had to beat the Patriots in the AFC title game to get the monkey off his back. Philip Rivers has the same problem. Some people will never respect Rivers until he beats the Steelers and Patriots in the playoffs. I don't agree with it but that's how it is.

 

[David Yudkin]

This is really getting dumb. For God's sake in one of his SB years the Pats weren't even good enough to be in the playoffs and in the other they got whooped by the freaking Ravens who weren't good enough to beat the Steelers in the Championship. This whole debate makes me wonder -- why are the Patriot fans so sensitive about this comparison?

I already said the gap is not that great, so don't shoot me down for bringing up some of the following . . .Part of the comparison issue is that Brady has played more years, so that makes things a little uneven. Similarly, Roethlisberger started playing at an earlier age, so using age comparisons will favor him instead.But we do know that after age 28 Brady went on to win two MVPs (giving him credit for this year). Brady is also a two time SB MVP (Ben so far with 0). We also know that Brady has now put up seasons with 14, 14, 14, and 16 regular season wins (Big Ben has one 14 win season IIRC and to pick nits he only won 13 of those games if people really want to get technical). Other things on Brady's curio shelf include 6 Pro Bowl selections (vs 1 for Ben) and 2 first team All-Pro selections (none for Ben). Brady was also selected to the 2000s All Decade team.Brady also has gone on to set some other records (50 TD in a season, the most passes without an INT streak, at one point holding the overall victory streak in addition to the very tainted home winning streak).As a side note, how silly is it that Brady's consecutive home winning streak is still intact (even though he has now lost TWO GAMES during it)?!?Other this things may not make Brady that much better, but it is one way to view Brady as having been "better." Again, Ben could gain some serious ground if he wins another SB this year . . .

 

[timschochet]

Some people just think that way. It was the same for Peyton Manning. He had to beat the Patriots in the AFC title game to get the monkey off his back. Philip Rivers has the same problem. Some people will never respect Rivers until he beats the Steelers and Patriots in the playoffs. I don't agree with it but that's how it is.

Rivers just has to do SOMETHING in the playoffs. He has to get his team to the SB.

 

[Copeman]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

This is really getting dumb. For God's sake in one of his SB years the Pats weren't even good enough to be in the playoffs and in the other they got whooped by the freaking Ravens who weren't good enough to beat the Steelers in the Championship. This whole debate makes me wonder -- why are the Patriot fans so sensitive about this comparison?

Some people just think that way. It was the same for Peyton Manning. He had to beat the Patriots in the AFC title game to get the monkey off his back. Philip Rivers has the same problem. Some people will never respect Rivers until he beats the Steelers and Patriots in the playoffs. I don't agree with it but that's how it is.

Brady won't be as good as Montana until Brady beats Montana head to head.

 

[steelcityman]

What nobody's mentioned here is how lucky Big Ben has been to have been drafted by the Steelers, which the NFL has designated as the team it most wants to win. It's great to be a QB on a team which has help from referees in every major game!

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year. And you are going to point out, what, a non-holding call on 3rd and one from the one?get over yourself

 

[Ghost Rider]

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year.

This is the hilarious part of the average Steelers fan. Most of them get so indignant and angry when anyone suggests that the league wants the Steelers to win and that they always get calls (which I agree is ridiculous, for the most part), but many of them had no problem suggesting that the league had it out for the Steelers this year in regards to illegal hits, which is equally ridiculous.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Maybe Drew Brees at times (I gotta tell ya, he seems to FORCE the ball under pressure quite a bit... doesn't do that well extending plays when the initial reads aren't there)

hahaid imagine the saints have the most players with a catch in the league and its not bc of injury.

who said anything about an injury? I didn't say he doesn't spread the ball I'm just saying sometimes he feels pressure when the pressure isn't really there... Most of his picks this year were just plain and simple BAD throws... Protection was a problem for them this year and an inconsistent running game at times was also problematic. Forcing the ball in pressure situations just doesn't work. He can dink and dunk all the way down the field but go back and look at his INTs. Obviously nobody is immune to pressure in the pocket but some are just more adept (or in Ben's case... FAT) in dealing with the pressure.

well, i thought it was clear what my point was, but i will attempt to reiterate it to you.you say brees doesnt do well when under pressure and his initial reads arent there. to dispute that, i say that brees utilizes far more pass catchers than almost all other qbs. (the injury thing wasnt really relevant i guess, just wanted to head off a potential argument.) what this shows is that he is stellar at moving on from his initial reads and finding the open 3rd through 5th option. upon rereading, i also take issue with your contention that he handles pressure poorly. his sack rates are among the best in the league over the last over the last 5 yrs, since arriving in new orleans. the only qb with sack rates likely better over that span was manning. roethlisberger, on the other hand is one of the worst in the league at taking sacks.

but go back and look at his INTs

his int rate was fine. 3.3% this year is indeed up from previous seasons and not elite, but realize that int rate has very little year to year correlation. also a lack of running and throwing a ton is gonna drive bulk ints up and rate (since the defense knows passes are coming.) over the last 4 years, on a much higher volume, brees int rate is 2.8. roeth is 2.4. if you look at their stats pages, these cherrypicked endpoints actually favor roethlisberger as brees had a career high in 5 yrs ago, while roeth posted a 4.9.so to summarize. brees throws the ball a ton more, gets sacked a ton less, and throws similar amount of ints to roeth. and you are trying to say that roeth deals with pressure better?

prior to this year... Brees also had a better running game than Ben. I guess my point is that it seems like this past season that Drew Brees struggled with decisions at times. Throwing into coverage and making mistakes that he in the past hasn't made. The only logical thing that I could think that would cause these differences are the fact that his running game struggled at times and his Offensive Line was more of a problem this year than in some of the years previous to this. He excels in a clean pocket (like most QBs) but when it gets a little dirty or the hits start to rack up he seems to make more of those bad decisions.... especially this year.Let me be clear in my point... I'm not saying that Ben is Tom or Peyton but I'm saying that he is in the discussion for the QB spot right below that and definitely in the discussion for top 5.

 

[Copeman]

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year.

This is the hilarious part of the average Steelers fan. Most of them get so indignant and angry when anyone suggests that the league wants the Steelers to win and that they always get calls (which I agree is ridiculous, for the most part), but many of them had no problem suggesting that the league had it out for the Steelers this year in regards to illegal hits, which is equally ridiculous.

Is it also ridiculous that a few players of opposing teams, specifically of the Steelers biggest rival, also said the same thing?

 

[Ghost Rider]

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year.

This is the hilarious part of the average Steelers fan. Most of them get so indignant and angry when anyone suggests that the league wants the Steelers to win and that they always get calls (which I agree is ridiculous, for the most part), but many of them had no problem suggesting that the league had it out for the Steelers this year in regards to illegal hits, which is equally ridiculous.

Is it also ridiculous that a few players of opposing teams, specifically of the Steelers biggest rival, also said the same thing?

Is it also ridiculous that a ref from the Steelers/Seahawks Super Bowl years later said he regrets some of the game-changing calls in that game?

 

[cvnpoka]

Let me be clear in my point... I'm not saying that Ben is Tom or Peyton but I'm saying that he is in the discussion for the QB spot right below that and definitely in the discussion for top 5.

ya, i can agree with this. its hard to choose between rivers rodgers ben and brees at this point. my preference is rivers. brees recent year gives me pause. rodgers sure looks the part but its only been one year.

 

[Copeman]

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year.

This is the hilarious part of the average Steelers fan. Most of them get so indignant and angry when anyone suggests that the league wants the Steelers to win and that they always get calls (which I agree is ridiculous, for the most part), but many of them had no problem suggesting that the league had it out for the Steelers this year in regards to illegal hits, which is equally ridiculous.

Is it also ridiculous that a few players of opposing teams, specifically of the Steelers biggest rival, also said the same thing?

Is it also ridiculous that a ref from the Steelers/Seahawks Super Bowl years later said he regrets some of the game-changing calls in that game?

What in the world does that have to do with illegal hits this year? Good Lord...

 

[Ghost Rider]

the league has treated the steelers like crap all year.

This is the hilarious part of the average Steelers fan. Most of them get so indignant and angry when anyone suggests that the league wants the Steelers to win and that they always get calls (which I agree is ridiculous, for the most part), but many of them had no problem suggesting that the league had it out for the Steelers this year in regards to illegal hits, which is equally ridiculous.

Is it also ridiculous that a few players of opposing teams, specifically of the Steelers biggest rival, also said the same thing?

Is it also ridiculous that a ref from the Steelers/Seahawks Super Bowl years later said he regrets some of the game-changing calls in that game?

What in the world does that have to do with illegal hits this year? Good Lord...

It goes to the heart of integrity. If the NFL is gonna go out of their way to target a team when it comes to late/illegal hits, then they would probably be just as likely to go out of their way to ensure that certain teams get calls that go their way, right? I mean, if they would do either, then their integrity on just about anything could be called into question, right?

 

[treat88]

It goes to the heart of integrity. If the NFL is gonna go out of their way to target a team when it comes to late/illegal hits, then they would probably be just as likely to go out of their way to ensure that certain teams get calls that go their way, right? I mean, if they would do either, then their integrity on just about anything could be called into question, right?

You don't think James Harrison drew extra attention this season from the stripes versus any other player on the field on Sundays?It's fairly easy for me to see the refs looking for specific players and specific calls versus actually trying to influence the outcome of a game in big play situations.But, yeah, if you question the leagues integrity you have to do it uniformly.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

that sounds good and all but you can't make assumptions like that.... To say Ben CAN'T be successful in Rivers situation but that Rivers WOULD be successful with the Steelers is assonine. Ben has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down and a passion and drive to win.

Fair weather teams and dome teams are normally built to put up a ton of points and their defense is designed (for the most part) to play with a 2 score lead where they can "forget" about the run game and focus on killing the QB.

Cold weather teams are normally built to withstand bad weather so they focus on being physical on D and possessing a power running game.

So I said all of that to say this... situations are what they are. They do what their teams ask them to do and it is debatable as to who does it better. I believe its Ben... and clearly you do not.

 

[cvnpoka]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

 

[CrossEyed]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

You came to this conclusion after breaking down the game video, I assume?