Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (1 Viewer)

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

This is such a misconception. All of those guys are terrific at immediately finding an open receiver (if there is one), which isn't necessarily Roethlisberger's biggest asset, so the team would likely run a different offense if any of those other guys were the Steelers QB instead of BR. The offense the Steelers run generally plays to Roethlisberger's strengths.

It's not a misconception, it's the way you are interpreting it. This isn't FF, where if a FF team acquires a new QB, you merely get to plug in his stats. You have to consider offensive system, other players, and O-line when you have these discussion. Although I worded it differently, this is what I posted earlier. Roethlisberger is the perfect QB for the Steelers offense. Those other QBs don't have the skill set, and they wouldn't be as successful (and would not have won the Jets game) with that offense and that offensive line. They would still have success, but not (IMO) to the same level as Roethlisberger does. Likewise, if Roethlisberger were in their systems, he would (IMO) still be successful, but not to the same level as they have been/will be.

Wouldn't the offense be different if they had a different QB? Why would they build and run an offense that suits Ben if Peyton is the QB, the same as the fact they don't run a Peyton Manning style offense with Ben...

ok but to be fair, in order to install a "Peyton Manning" style offense would require a far more superior pass blocking line than the line they currently have. Great Pass blocking O-Lineman are a little harder to come by than say a big oaf who specializes in Run Blocking. Superior footwork is a requirement is it not? Because they are harder to find it means you will either need to trade for them, acquire them via Free Agency (good luck), or draft them early in the draft. So what suffers when you invest draft picks on offense? How about the defense? Hard to find defensive playmakers later in the draft. Not a lot of Polamalus or Suhs or Patrick Willis's or Revis's later in the draft.See what I'm saying? Also a Peyton Manning offense on a slow track doesn't really look like a Peyton Manning offense. A Drew Brees offense on a slow track doesn't really look like a Drew Brees offense either.

Teams are built around their playmakers and around their cities (in a lot of cases). Dome offenses (and defenses) are normally not built in cold weather open stadiums in cities like Buffalo, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New York, etc.

It is what it is and Big Ben will have a shot to win #3 in less than 2 weeks... An opportunity born out of situation and the fact that the team is built "around" him... but not necessarily on the offensive line (pouncey excluded).

With the team constructed the way it is... it only requires that Ben (most of the time) make a handful of "must have plays" to win the game. Does that mean he shouldn't be considered among the best in the league? The answer is NO IMHO. He shouldn't be knocked for being in the situation he is in and especially shouldn't be knocked when you look at his efficiency numbers and how they compare to the QBs already acknowledged as "elite." In some cases, he has BETTER numbers than these other QBs... especially in the playoffs.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Brian Baldinger, last week:

In my mind, Roethlisberger is tougher to defend than both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. The Jets have beaten both, but neither plays like Roethlisberger. They don’t get out of the pocket, extend plays or break down defenses the way Roethlisberger does, which can be frustrating and irritating for a defense. Roethlisberger plays with no conscience. He will throw the ball 65-yards downfield on a third-and-19. He doesn’t care. If he doesn’t make the throw, the Steelers punt and put the defense back out on the field. It’s true that you can hit Brady and Manning early and frustrate them by getting them off of their spot. I’ve seen Roethlisberger go through every situation imaginable, and nothing phases him. He just comes back on the next play.

Really, no one in the league outside of Michael Vick has more to prove to his city, his fans or his own teammates than Roethlisberger. He let them down the first quarter of the season and put the proudest organization in the league through a bad offseason. Even though he’s won two Super Bowls, no one deep down needs this more than Roethlisberger to erase the stain he put on the organization. I think he deep down feels like he owes everyone something. No one scares you more at the end of a game. This all makes Roethlisberger very dangerous.

Link

Fluff Piece...

 

[David Yudkin]

True. Much is judged based on winning it all. Yet, Roethlisberger has 2 rings already at 28 and is frequently not held in any esteem whatsoever. Many in this thread have said or insinuated that he's no better than the 7th best QB of the 32 currently starting, so I guess it happens more from the rearview mirror than it does when looking at contemporaries.

Here's the thing. We are comparing individual players (in this case QBs). On the food chain of QBs, based on individual production, awards, etc. Roethlisberger does not rank that high (or at least not right at the top). As you indicate, call him #7 or thereabouts.But when you start talking teams and SB champions, now you are comparing 53 man rosters, coaches, salary cap management, and drafting, etc. It's not just about one guy. Isn't it conceivable that the 52 man roster without Roethlisberger was in the elite grouping over the past 6 years and that that had a greater result to the success or failure of the Steelers than their QB? How about the coaching, drafting, game planning, etc. . . . wouyldn't you say that that was a vital piece of the puzzle?I have always felt that QBs get way too much credit when their team wins and way to much blame when they lose. This year's playoff games have only confirmed to me what I already felt all along.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I would think Manning would end up in the fetal position a lot wouldn't you?

That's not a serious question is it?

yes... a serious question.... what happens when a free rusher gets to Peyton? Have YOU seen him break a tackle and make a throw downfield?

Yes

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't know about that anymore. I would use the term "different".

I think Roethisberger is a better player for PIT than Brady or Manning if they left the PIT system and scheme the same. He may not be better than those two for the majority of teams in the league.IMO, I think Brady and Manning would have more of an impact to the success or failure of a different team than Ben would. (Basically, the teams could not be NE, IND, or PIT and all three would be put on all the other teams.)

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think you could have picked any number of QB's that would have won Sunday's game. Ben only made a couple plays and was rather pedestrian for the rest of the game.You're correct on that one play though. Manning wouldn't have been able to escape the rush only to throw an interception. He would have just been sacked.I don't think the game would have been that close with most of the other elite QB's. They alude pressure by making quick reads and getting the ball out way quicker than Ben does. He's pretty slow at going through his progressions, but he does make up for that a bit with his escapability.

You still aren't getting it... read what is written... Yes Tom and Peyton get rid of the ball quicker and make "snap" decisions... The Jets defense in the playoffs was a bit different than the regular season. They had been covering the short quick routes with bracket coverage basically daring you to try and beat them deep which plays right into the hands of their stellar CBs... Maybe you've heard of Revis and Cromartie? Brady (the master) was unsuccessful against this defense.... why? Because his receivers were reaching the end of their short routes and Brady (master of the quick decisions and short passes) had been unable to "solve" the puzzle. After his initial reads and progressions were finished... what did Brady do? Ummmm.... mostly looked confused and a little paranoid by the pressure from the D-Line that was now "getting home." What does (or did) Ben do when faced with this same defensive scheme? How about running for first downs... How about scrambling around and finding receivers for big time conversions (especially) on the last drive.See... it's easy to SAY that Manning or Brady would have been able to do better against that Defense....... except they didn't. Snap decisions and quick releases don't do much when the initial "planned plays" and "short routes" are disrupted.How have Tom and Peyton dealt with that in the past? How did they deal with it this time? How does Phil deal with that type of situation? How about Drew?Rodgers would be the next best option (possibly the best) but Ben's just done it a little longer.Am I missing anyone? Romo? hahaha... sorry

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Hey EG,Not sure I can stomach 11 pages of this but I was thinking about this topic on my drive in this morning and I thought to myself if you strip away the fantasy angle and you were to ask NFL GMs who likely do not play FF like the rest of us and you asked them their top5 QBs...I can almost guarantee that Big Ben would be on most of those short lists. We get a skewed opinion in FF but most experts would have Big Ben on their must have list. He is 10-2 in the playoffs, not even 30 yet, and has 2 Super Bowl rings. Granted he plays on a very talented team and has a great organization at the top but that shouldn't detract from the greatness he has accomplished on the field. -MOP

I can't see an NFL GM taking Big Ben over Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Rivers. If you want to slot him somewhere in the next 5, I can live with that, but I just don't see the Top 5.

even that depends to an extent about how you want to build your team AND where your team plays (good weather/domes or open stadiums with brutal conditions late in the season). If you wanted to build an exceptional defense, logic tells you that you wouldn't be able to spend as much money/draft picks on offense. To win it all you will need a balance of good/great defense and an offense that either puts up ridiculous amounts of points or controls the ball while not turning it over. Sprinkle in special teams that don't screw up and you have a winner. An elite Defense isn't a must but it certainly helps a lot.Some QBs have the skill set to win regardless of the system and I think Ben is one of those guys. In situations where he has had to score to keep up with the other team he has done it time and again. Most of the time his defense doesn't require those sort of outbursts but that shouldn't be a knock on his ability to do so.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Hey EG,Not sure I can stomach 11 pages of this but I was thinking about this topic on my drive in this morning and I thought to myself if you strip away the fantasy angle and you were to ask NFL GMs who likely do not play FF like the rest of us and you asked them their top5 QBs...I can almost guarantee that Big Ben would be on most of those short lists. We get a skewed opinion in FF but most experts would have Big Ben on their must have list. He is 10-2 in the playoffs, not even 30 yet, and has 2 Super Bowl rings. Granted he plays on a very talented team and has a great organization at the top but that shouldn't detract from the greatness he has accomplished on the field. -MOP

I can't see an NFL GM taking Big Ben over Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Rivers. If you want to slot him somewhere in the next 5, I can live with that, but I just don't see the Top 5.

even that depends to an extent about how you want to build your team AND where your team plays (good weather/domes or open stadiums with brutal conditions late in the season). If you wanted to build an exceptional defense, logic tells you that you wouldn't be able to spend as much money/draft picks on offense. To win it all you will need a balance of good/great defense and an offense that either puts up ridiculous amounts of points or controls the ball while not turning it over. Sprinkle in special teams that don't screw up and you have a winner. An elite Defense isn't a must but it certainly helps a lot.Some QBs have the skill set to win regardless of the system and I think Ben is one of those guys. In situations where he has had to score to keep up with the other team he has done it time and again. Most of the time his defense doesn't require those sort of outbursts but that shouldn't be a knock on his ability to do so.

The odds that a GM would want to build his team around a young Ben rather than a young Manning or Brady are pretty slim...

 

[David Yudkin]

even that depends to an extent about how you want to build your team AND where your team plays (good weather/domes or open stadiums with brutal conditions late in the season). If you wanted to build an exceptional defense, logic tells you that you wouldn't be able to spend as much money/draft picks on offense. To win it all you will need a balance of good/great defense and an offense that either puts up ridiculous amounts of points or controls the ball while not turning it over. Sprinkle in special teams that don't screw up and you have a winner. An elite Defense isn't a must but it certainly helps a lot.Some QBs have the skill set to win regardless of the system and I think Ben is one of those guys. In situations where he has had to score to keep up with the other team he has done it time and again. Most of the time his defense doesn't require those sort of outbursts but that shouldn't be a knock on his ability to do so.

Again, there is no right answer to these types of open ended questions.If, as you said, your team would focus more on defense and you may not have a lot of money for offense, then Ben may not be a financial option for you. Even so, in your example you are describing PIT as the team in question.If we made it that all teams were looking to win next year and next year only and they had to take a QB first and there were no players on a roster yet, I doubt Ben would go before the guys I listed. Have all the teams have a massive "do over" and draft from scratch and I don't see Ben going that high.Just like back in the early days, even when Brady had won a couple of titles, teams would not have been jumping at the chance just to get Brady because he won. At that point, he was a good but not great QB.It's no disgrace to not be one of the best 5 players at your position. You can still be a great player.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

In a discussion where we're talking about "Who is better" aren't we talking about in any stage of their career? I don't think age is part of the discussion..

Better question would be, in hindsight looking over what we know about these guys, if they were all in the draft this year, which 5 would be drafted first?

I'm thinking Manning and Brady would certainly go top 2

Rivers, Brees, Rogers.. Next Three

Vick (maybe he's up a tier), Roth and a pile of other guys... Freeman, Bradford.. etc

Ben does a good job being part of that offense and offensive game plan, but I don't think he matches up well against many of these other guys as far as ability goes..

based on what?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

This is such a misconception. All of those guys are terrific at immediately finding an open receiver (if there is one), which isn't necessarily Roethlisberger's biggest asset, so the team would likely run a different offense if any of those other guys were the Steelers QB instead of BR. The offense the Steelers run generally plays to Roethlisberger's strengths.

It's not a misconception, it's the way you are interpreting it. This isn't FF, where if a FF team acquires a new QB, you merely get to plug in his stats. You have to consider offensive system, other players, and O-line when you have these discussion. Although I worded it differently, this is what I posted earlier. Roethlisberger is the perfect QB for the Steelers offense. Those other QBs don't have the skill set, and they wouldn't be as successful (and would not have won the Jets game) with that offense and that offensive line. They would still have success, but not (IMO) to the same level as Roethlisberger does. Likewise, if Roethlisberger were in their systems, he would (IMO) still be successful, but not to the same level as they have been/will be.

Wouldn't the offense be different if they had a different QB? Why would they build and run an offense that suits Ben if Peyton is the QB, the same as the fact they don't run a Peyton Manning style offense with Ben...

That's possible, but the Steelers offense wasn't built around Roethlisberger, he just happens to fit that offense. That being said, that isn't what is being discussed. What I've said is that in the game on Sunday, with the circumstances what they were (current Steelers offense, current Steelers O-line), Roethlisberger was successful when those other QBs wouldn't have been.

I think a case could be made to the contrary here. Quick WRs with great speed and acceleration fit perfectly with the offense that Pittsburgh runs. Long crossing routes and "scramble" plays allow them to use their speed and acceleration to get open downfield. Their offensive line is built primarily to excel in the run game. Their "pass protection" skills don't need to be elite as Ben can elude defenders consistently and keep plays alive. Because their "pass protection" isn't elite they don't have to use early draft picks to select the guys they want (Pouncey is the exception). A power RB like Mendenhall also fits this system extremely well because of the slow track in Pittsburgh. A solid 2-way TE like Heath Miller allows them to use him in both the run game and the pass game. He is also a reliable possession receiver and a valuable redzone target.

All of these things allows them to draft defense....

 

[treat88]

At some point one has to just recognize that all the guys in the conversation are very good QB's.

They have different strengths and weaknesses and they have varying levels of talent surrounding them now and have had previously.

But, be it Manning Roeth, Brady, Rodgers, Brees or Rivers...depending on the Sunday in question any one of them may be the best QB in the NFL and give their team the best chance to win.

Everyone is going to prefer a different style or value certain qualities more highly than others do and that is cool.

Trying to rank them is pretty artificial as there is no clear cut demonstrable "best" amongst them.

 

[Bayhawks]

Bayhawks -

As I mentioned, you are looking to shoehorn in an exact duplicate for Roethlisberger and not change a single thing, play, or alignment. I suspect that with other QB options they would have fared just as well if the scheme and playbook were slighlty adjusted to better fit that QB. So if your argument is that some other QB would have to run the EXACT same plays in the EXACT same way as Roethlisberger did, then you are probably right, but I think that is a bit over the top.

Using Brady as an example, you're right. Brady would not run the ball 10-12 times. The question would then be in those plays would Brady have thrown the ball instead of run and perhaps been more effective passing the ball and/or would they have run different plays with Brady than with Ben.

That's the part that is impossible. We have no idea what the Steelers would do/scheme differently with someone else.

It's not just the scheme and playbook. The o-line of the Steelers mandates a QB be able to create on his own, and for many other QBs, that changes everything.

 

[Bayhawks]

BradyManningRiversBreesRodgersI feel like every one of those guys... although in their own way, could win that game.Yes Roethlisberger is better at avoiding the sack than most of those guys...but there is more to a quarterback than just that. Just because Ben makes a couple plays, you think only he could win that game? Another QB may make plays Ben did not.

In the Jets game that I watched I saw a line that wasn't pass protecting very well. That game required a QB that could move out of the pocket just to get the pass off, not to mention completeing some clutch passes AND running for 4 first downs and a TD. Given the same circumstances and calling the same plays the only other QB on your list that I think could have done that would have been Rodgers. Disagree if you want but I have never seen Brady, Manning, Rivers or Brees move like that.

Just read David Yudkin's post above this one. That's what I'm trying to say

So that's all you're trying to say?OK, then, because David didn't address the poor o-line play of the Steelers, which is one of the biggest reasons that Roethliberger is the perfect QB for them

 

[LTF]

I think you could have picked any number of QB's that would have won Sunday's game. Ben only made a couple plays and was rather pedestrian for the rest of the game.You're correct on that one play though. Manning wouldn't have been able to escape the rush only to throw an interception. He would have just been sacked.I don't think the game would have been that close with most of the other elite QB's. They alude pressure by making quick reads and getting the ball out way quicker than Ben does. He's pretty slow at going through his progressions, but he does make up for that a bit with his escapability.

You still aren't getting it... read what is written... Yes Tom and Peyton get rid of the ball quicker and make "snap" decisions... The Jets defense in the playoffs was a bit different than the regular season. They had been covering the short quick routes with bracket coverage basically daring you to try and beat them deep which plays right into the hands of their stellar CBs... Maybe you've heard of Revis and Cromartie? Brady (the master) was unsuccessful against this defense.... why? Because his receivers were reaching the end of their short routes and Brady (master of the quick decisions and short passes) had been unable to "solve" the puzzle. After his initial reads and progressions were finished... what did Brady do? Ummmm.... mostly looked confused and a little paranoid by the pressure from the D-Line that was now "getting home." What does (or did) Ben do when faced with this same defensive scheme? How about running for first downs... How about scrambling around and finding receivers for big time conversions (especially) on the last drive.See... it's easy to SAY that Manning or Brady would have been able to do better against that Defense....... except they didn't. Snap decisions and quick releases don't do much when the initial "planned plays" and "short routes" are disrupted.How have Tom and Peyton dealt with that in the past? How did they deal with it this time? How does Phil deal with that type of situation? How about Drew?Rodgers would be the next best option (possibly the best) but Ben's just done it a little longer.Am I missing anyone? Romo? hahaha... sorry

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Yeah, and what an unstoppable running game it has been! I'm sure we all remember how dominant the Steelers were on the ground this season (where they were 11th and 17th in yards and YPC respectively) and in 2008 (where they were 23rd and 28th overall respectively) which are their last two SB seasons. Not to mention during the '05 playoffs... I mean, talk about a steamroller! Willie Parker and Jerome Bettis pretty much carried Ben through the AFC playoffs with their ballpark 2.3 YPC. Thank God for them! I'm really starting to wonder if people actually watch the games or just watch ESPN and digest talking head hyperbole as fact. I'm starting to think it's the latter.

 

[DropKick]

If Brady is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Manning is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Brees is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rivers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rodgers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB (although I love Rodgers mobility as a QB, he is not as big or strong as Roethlsiberger, and I don't think Rodgers would have been able to bull for the extra rushing yards that Ben did on at least 2 rushes for 1st downs).

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

I've never said a single bad thing about Ben's play, And I agree that he is a good fit for the team. But your point - that the Steelers couldn't win with a different QB is nutty. They could win with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Vick, Rivers, Freeman, Ryan, Eli, Schaub, Romo, Bradford, etc.

Try reading it again. That wasn't my point. My point was that IN THE JETS game, with the defense the Jets were playing, and with Bruce Aryans' offensive philosophy, a QB like Roethlisberger was needed. A QB like Manning or Brady, who rely on a clean pocket to be successful, wouldn't have worked. A QB like Brees, who operates in a different system, and isn't the biggest guy, wouldn't have worked. A QB like Rivers, who doesn't scramble/run, wouldn't have worked. Rodgers would have been the next best fit, but he isn't as big or physical as Roethlisberger, so the key 3rd downs where Roethlisberger bulled through Jets defenders to get the extra yards wouldn't have been converted.Overall, Roethlisberger is the perfect QB for the Steelers combination of Aryans' offense and poor O-line. Plus, he's just a winner. That's not to say that other QBs couldn't win there, although I doubt that they'd have as much success as Roethlisberger. But my point was, and is, that those other QBs wouldn't have been able to pull out a victory in the Jets' game because they don't have Roethlisberger's skill-set.

I understand there are intangibles and not everything shows up in the box score. I also understand when you're spotted a 24 point lead and the defense puts up a TD, the offense can go into game management mode. Stats don't always tell the whole story. I give the man credit; he wins, extends plays, etc. etc. But... 10 completions, 133 yards, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles (both recovered), one led to safety, and a "35" QB rating ??? And you're sure the top QBs in the game wouldn't have been able to pull-out a victory? I'm sorry, that's a big jump. You seem convinced the only path to victory is for the QB to "bull through" the defense. While I agree that Ben does have a unique skill set, so do other top QBs. They may not have made the exact same plays as Ben but who would want or expect them to?

To your point, Josh Freeman may prove to be the closest to Roethlisberger's skill set.

 

[Steelfan7]

At some point one has to just recognize that all the guys in the conversation are very good QB's.

They have different strengths and weaknesses and they have varying levels of talent surrounding them now and have had previously.

But, be it Manning Roeth, Brady, Rodgers, Brees or Rivers...depending on the Sunday in question any one of them may be the best QB in the NFL and give their team the best chance to win.

Everyone is going to prefer a different style or value certain qualities more highly than others do and that is cool.

Trying to rank them is pretty artificial as there is no clear cut demonstrable "best" amongst them.

:thread:

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Vick (maybe he's up a tier), Roth and a pile of other guys... Freeman, Bradford.. etc

weigh in...

You're lumping Ben's career and telent in with Stafford and Freeman? I don't have to say anything, you just said it all

Drafting Stafford or Ben.. I know enough about Stafford to say, I think he has it.. And I don't think I'd be out of line in thinking he is a better talent with better skill set..Remember, I'm not drafting any of the current Steelers team, only Ben or Stafford... The rest of the team comes after.. This is my first pick of an expansion team

I get Ben abilities, the ones we have seen, not the wins...

ok... I'm guessing your next priority would NOT be to draft and awesome offensive line so that Stafford only would get sacked 5-7 times a year as he has CLEARLY proven that he can survive being hit multiple times without being any worse for the wear

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I was speaking specifically to David's point, not to the general discussion. But in this scenario, I agree Manning and Brady would probably be the top 2 taken (in some order) but I strongly disagree that Roethlisberger would definitely be below Vick, Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers if teams were drafting knowing exactly what we know right now. And putting him in a category with Freeman and Bradford, again based only on what we already know right now, is borderline insulting. It would really depend on the team picking and how you'd want to construct it. I think if the Steelers were presented with those options (off the field crap aside), they'd re-take Roethlisberger over any of those guy save for Manning and Brady. Do you want Elway or Marino? That sort of thing.

Is there anyone who would put him ahead of Brady in that situation? If not, then I guess that would be my only point..Ben vs Rivers vs Rodgers vs Vick vs Brees could be another discussion, but with the criteria above, I wouldn't rank Ben on top of that tier either...

I wouldn't put him ahead of Brady, but then this must be the 10th time I've said that I believe Brady is better. I wouldn't put him ahead of Manning either.However, I'd strongly consider him first in that next tier. People are mislead by statistics oftentimes, they don't realize that if Ben played in an aerial attack, his numbers would likely be very impressive. Just for laughs, I used the game log dominator here at FBGs to isolate Ben's career 40+ attempt games. He's only had 15 out of the 111 career starts he's made (9.6%) and in those 15 games is operating at a 64% completion rate and has thrown for 4,872 yards (325 a game.) Imagine what kind of #s he could put up if he got to throw that often as regularly as Brees (34.3% of his starts have been 40+ attempts), Manning (28.3%), or even Brady (19.6%) and Rodgers (19.2%.) Now granted, Ben's TD/INT #s in those games is only 23/23, but he had 6 TDs and 11 picks in his first four 40+ attempt games, which came in his first two years in the league. Since then, he's averaged the same amount of yards, but has a more respectable 17/12 TD/INT ratio. Again, the TDs don't dazzle you, but then, the Steelers don't throw as often in the red zone - using data dominator, NE, INDY, NO, and GB are 1-2-3-4 in red zone attempts since 2004, while the Steelers are 12th. Inside the opponent's 10, they rank 1-3-4-5, while Pittsburgh is 18th. Inside the opponent's 5, all four of those teams are in the top 7, while Pittsburgh is 28th.

dang

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I was speaking specifically to David's point, not to the general discussion. But in this scenario, I agree Manning and Brady would probably be the top 2 taken (in some order) but I strongly disagree that Roethlisberger would definitely be below Vick, Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers if teams were drafting knowing exactly what we know right now. And putting him in a category with Freeman and Bradford, again based only on what we already know right now, is borderline insulting. It would really depend on the team picking and how you'd want to construct it. I think if the Steelers were presented with those options (off the field crap aside), they'd re-take Roethlisberger over any of those guy save for Manning and Brady. Do you want Elway or Marino? That sort of thing.

Is there anyone who would put him ahead of Brady in that situation? If not, then I guess that would be my only point..Ben vs Rivers vs Rodgers vs Vick vs Brees could be another discussion, but with the criteria above, I wouldn't rank Ben on top of that tier either...

I wouldn't put him ahead of Brady, but then this must be the 10th time I've said that I believe Brady is better. I wouldn't put him ahead of Manning either.However, I'd strongly consider him first in that next tier. People are mislead by statistics oftentimes, they don't realize that if Ben played in an aerial attack, his numbers would likely be very impressive. Just for laughs, I used the game log dominator here at FBGs to isolate Ben's career 40+ attempt games. He's only had 15 out of the 111 career starts he's made (9.6%) and in those 15 games is operating at a 64% completion rate and has thrown for 4,872 yards (325 a game.) Imagine what kind of #s he could put up if he got to throw that often as regularly as Brees (34.3% of his starts have been 40+ attempts), Manning (28.3%), or even Brady (19.6%) and Rodgers (19.2%.) Now granted, Ben's TD/INT #s in those games is only 23/23, but he had 6 TDs and 11 picks in his first four 40+ attempt games, which came in his first two years in the league. Since then, he's averaged the same amount of yards, but has a more respectable 17/12 TD/INT ratio. Again, the TDs don't dazzle you, but then, the Steelers don't throw as often in the red zone - using data dominator, NE, INDY, NO, and GB are 1-2-3-4 in red zone attempts since 2004, while the Steelers are 12th. Inside the opponent's 10, they rank 1-3-4-5, while Pittsburgh is 18th. Inside the opponent's 5, all four of those teams are in the top 7, while Pittsburgh is 28th.

dang

Which part? The part where you fellow Steelers fan says "I wouldn't put him ahead of Brady"

 

[Bayhawks]

Some of this is hypothetical, since we haven't seen Rodgers or Rivers play the Jets, but we saw Manning and Brady fail when they played the Jets, so it seems fool-hardy to assume they would be successful, when they weren't.

This is partly why I started a thread the other day on the perception of how Brady and Big Ben played against the Jets.I realize we can't simply move production around, but Brady pretty much had 300/2 against the Jets and the offense produced 21 points against the Jets.

Ben had 120 something yards and a rushing TD and led the offense to 17 points (less 2 points on a safety for those that want to factor that in).

Theortetically, one could argue that in total Brady had a stronger game against the Jets than Roethlisberger looking only at stat lines.

In reality, we have no idea how anyone other than Ben would have done in that game, so it's totally based on presumptions and guesswork.

I don't dispute a thing you say but I would add the 4 rushing first downs to Ben's stat line. Those were really big, especially the 3rd and 12 which came right after he took a knee to the hip.

Clearly the only thing that matters is winning or losing. But if we added up Ben's rushing yards, Brady had twice as many total yards and twice as many TD with half as many turnovers (and no safety) compared to Roethlisberger. Yet the perception of many is that Ben was a man amoungst boys while Brady puked on his shoes and choked the game away.I understand Roethlisberger had fewer passing attempts, but as already mentioned, maybe Brady or someone else might have been better able to get some completions without the need to scramble. Or with another QB perhaps there was a better game plan that would have been more effective.

Who knows, maybe with another QB the Steelers would have won by 3 TD instead of a handful of points. I'm not saying that would have happened, but once you start changing the players and the game plan you can imagine different outcomes in both directions.

I'm not comparing Ben to Trent Dilfer directly, but couldn't a case be made that with a better QB the Ravens team that won the SB would have been exponentially better and still won? I won't deny that the plays Roethlisberger made were gutsy and he took a beating to pull them off. That doesn't mean someone else would not have had similar (or greater) success.

Put another way, stake another QB to 7 points from the defense, only 60 yards allowed in the first half, and a 24-3 halftime lead and I think a number of QBs could have come out of that game with a win. The Steelers ended up with 74 yards of offense in the second half on 26 plays with a net -2 points scored. Taken on a whole and given what the lead was, that really overall is not all that impressive. But yes, when it mattered most Ben pulled it out. The question then becomes would other QBs have even had to have gotten to the point where they needed to scramble and make clutch first downs or complete a last minute pass to ice the game. Perhaps they would have been ahead by enough that it never got to that point. It's theoretical, so clearly there are arguments on all fronts on t his one . . .

David, you don't think that the offensive performance in the 2nd half had anything to do with the ultra-conservative game plan that the Steelers adopted? They threw the ball FIVE TIMES in the second half. Two of those were on the final possession to ice the game. So, in this second half, when the Steelers were content to sit on their lead, Roethlisberger threw the ball 3 times. Do you think he audibled out of pass plays? Do you think the Steelers didn't trust him? It was a bad coaching decision (IMO), but it's one that I've noticed the Steelers tend to utilize. When they get up by what they deem a "safe margin," they sit on the ball. Often times, IMO, they get too conservative way too early.But, you mentioned earlier how Brady had nearly 300 yards and 2 TDs. A LOT of that yardage came in the 4th quarter when the Jets had a 2-score lead (14-3, 21-11, & then 28-14). In the first half, Brady was 8/14 for 89 yards and no TDs. He failed to beat the Jets defense, and they were able to hang in the game until they got the lead.

In the Steelers/Jets game, before the Steelers coaches took the air out of the ball, in the 1st half, Roethlisberger was 7/14 for 96 yards, 1 INT (on a tipped ball), and a rushing TD. Not to mention that he ran 13 yards on 3rd & 12 to convert a key 1st down on the opening TD drive.

Brady put up his stats when the Jets were playing prevent. When they were in similar situations, against the same defense, Roethlisberger was better.

 

[Bayhawks]

Wouldn't the offense be different if they had a different QB? Why would they build and run an offense that suits Ben if Peyton is the QB, the same as the fact they don't run a Peyton Manning style offense with Ben...

That's possible, but the Steelers offense wasn't built around Roethlisberger, he just happens to fit that offense.

That being said, that isn't what is being discussed. What I've said is that in the game on Sunday, with the circumstances what they were (current Steelers offense, current Steelers O-line), Roethlisberger was successful when those other QBs wouldn't have been.

Pure speculation... And I'm sure plenty here would speculate otherwise..I think the question I asked above would be a better measure..

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

So, you want to assume that we know how their careers will unfold, and that they are both the same age (or at least both rookies), right? With these assumptions, you would like to know who I would take?

In that situation, I'd take Roethlisberger, since you said it's an expansion team. Most expansion teams have poor offensive lines, because of their nature, and because offensive line play involves the unit being able to work together, cohesively. Since it will (normally) take a while to build that cohesion, I'd take the QB who I know will be more able to make plays out of situations when the O-line falters, and not the QB who typically needs a clean pocket to be at his best.

Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'd answer mine (since you said others would speculate otherwise, I will assume you are one such person):

In the Jets-Steelers game on Sunday, WITH THE CURRENT STEELERS OFFENSIVE SYSTEM AND O-LINE, what other NFL QB would have been able to do what Roethlisberger did?

Vick, Freeman...

And I think if Brees/Manning/Brady were there, they wouldn't have had to do it the way Ben did, they would have employed a stronger passing attack..

I would say that any of the top 5 QB's that have been batted around could have won that game...

I appreciate your response, but are you serious?Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't a physical runner, he's just a freak. He may have been able to scramble and gain yards, but I don't see him bulling through any LBs. Freeman is only in his 2nd year, and while he has looked good, he has also, at times looked like a 2nd-year player. To suggest that he would have been able to do what Ben did is possible but, (IMO) far-fetched.

As for Brees, Manning, Brady, etc-I've already said that in their own offenses, with their own offensive lines they could have employed a different passing attack (although it didn't work too well for the Pats or Colts), but that wasn't the question, so I'll take your response to mean that you agree they wouldn't have been successful with the Steelers offensive scheme and O-line.

 

[Bayhawks]

I think you could have picked any number of QB's that would have won Sunday's game. Ben only made a couple plays and was rather pedestrian for the rest of the game.You're correct on that one play though. Manning wouldn't have been able to escape the rush only to throw an interception. He would have just been sacked.I don't think the game would have been that close with most of the other elite QB's. They alude pressure by making quick reads and getting the ball out way quicker than Ben does. He's pretty slow at going through his progressions, but he does make up for that a bit with his escapability.

You still aren't getting it... read what is written... Yes Tom and Peyton get rid of the ball quicker and make "snap" decisions... The Jets defense in the playoffs was a bit different than the regular season. They had been covering the short quick routes with bracket coverage basically daring you to try and beat them deep which plays right into the hands of their stellar CBs... Maybe you've heard of Revis and Cromartie? Brady (the master) was unsuccessful against this defense.... why? Because his receivers were reaching the end of their short routes and Brady (master of the quick decisions and short passes) had been unable to "solve" the puzzle. After his initial reads and progressions were finished... what did Brady do? Ummmm.... mostly looked confused and a little paranoid by the pressure from the D-Line that was now "getting home." What does (or did) Ben do when faced with this same defensive scheme? How about running for first downs... How about scrambling around and finding receivers for big time conversions (especially) on the last drive.See... it's easy to SAY that Manning or Brady would have been able to do better against that Defense....... except they didn't. Snap decisions and quick releases don't do much when the initial "planned plays" and "short routes" are disrupted.How have Tom and Peyton dealt with that in the past? How did they deal with it this time? How does Phil deal with that type of situation? How about Drew?Rodgers would be the next best option (possibly the best) but Ben's just done it a little longer.Am I missing anyone? Romo? hahaha... sorry

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Except Brady did. His rushing attack has been just as good as Roethlisberger's was during their respective SB years.

 

[Bayhawks]

I think a case could be made to the contrary here. Quick WRs with great speed and acceleration fit perfectly with the offense that Pittsburgh runs. Long crossing routes and "scramble" plays allow them to use their speed and acceleration to get open downfield. Their offensive line is built primarily to excel in the run game. Their "pass protection" skills don't need to be elite as Ben can elude defenders consistently and keep plays alive. Because their "pass protection" isn't elite they don't have to use early draft picks to select the guys they want (Pouncey is the exception). A power RB like Mendenhall also fits this system extremely well because of the slow track in Pittsburgh. A solid 2-way TE like Heath Miller allows them to use him in both the run game and the pass game. He is also a reliable possession receiver and a valuable redzone target.All of these things allows them to draft defense....

Except if you actually look at the Steelers draft history, they don't usually draft offense early. It has nothing to do with Ben. In fact, Roethlisberger, a few years ago said he would like to have the Steelers draft a big WR for him to throw to. So who have they picked the last few years? Mike Wallace (6'), Sanders (5'11"), and Brown (5'10").It's easy to say that they built the offense around him if you don't really look at what they've done, and try to make the facts fit what you want to believe, but that's not what happened.They've traditionally been a run-heavy, deep-pass type offense. Roethlisberger just is the best QB they've had in a while to run the traditional Steelers offense

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Wouldn't the offense be different if they had a different QB? Why would they build and run an offense that suits Ben if Peyton is the QB, the same as the fact they don't run a Peyton Manning style offense with Ben...

That's possible, but the Steelers offense wasn't built around Roethlisberger, he just happens to fit that offense.

That being said, that isn't what is being discussed. What I've said is that in the game on Sunday, with the circumstances what they were (current Steelers offense, current Steelers O-line), Roethlisberger was successful when those other QBs wouldn't have been.

Pure speculation... And I'm sure plenty here would speculate otherwise..I think the question I asked above would be a better measure..

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

So, you want to assume that we know how their careers will unfold, and that they are both the same age (or at least both rookies), right? With these assumptions, you would like to know who I would take?

In that situation, I'd take Roethlisberger, since you said it's an expansion team. Most expansion teams have poor offensive lines, because of their nature, and because offensive line play involves the unit being able to work together, cohesively. Since it will (normally) take a while to build that cohesion, I'd take the QB who I know will be more able to make plays out of situations when the O-line falters, and not the QB who typically needs a clean pocket to be at his best.

Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'd answer mine (since you said others would speculate otherwise, I will assume you are one such person):

In the Jets-Steelers game on Sunday, WITH THE CURRENT STEELERS OFFENSIVE SYSTEM AND O-LINE, what other NFL QB would have been able to do what Roethlisberger did?

Vick, Freeman...

And I think if Brees/Manning/Brady were there, they wouldn't have had to do it the way Ben did, they would have employed a stronger passing attack..

I would say that any of the top 5 QB's that have been batted around could have won that game...

I appreciate your response, but are you serious?Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't a physical runner, he's just a freak. He may have been able to scramble and gain yards, but I don't see him bulling through any LBs. Freeman is only in his 2nd year, and while he has looked good, he has also, at times looked like a 2nd-year player. To suggest that he would have been able to do what Ben did is possible but, (IMO) far-fetched.

As for Brees, Manning, Brady, etc-I've already said that in their own offenses, with their own offensive lines they could have employed a different passing attack (although it didn't work too well for the Pats or Colts), but that wasn't the question, so I'll take your response to mean that you agree they wouldn't have been successful with the Steelers offensive scheme and O-line.

Honestly, it's hard for me to keep this convo going and not be very frustrated with you...

Did the Steelers lose any games this year? To teams that have lost against other QB's but Beat Ben? of course.. The jets game argument is silly for that simple fact alone... Also, to say no other QB in the NFL could have one that game besides Ben is an incredibly ridiculous suggestion..

And to think all along I thought you were a GreenBay fan for some reason... Turns out your team is the Steelers...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think you could have picked any number of QB's that would have won Sunday's game. Ben only made a couple plays and was rather pedestrian for the rest of the game.You're correct on that one play though. Manning wouldn't have been able to escape the rush only to throw an interception. He would have just been sacked.I don't think the game would have been that close with most of the other elite QB's. They alude pressure by making quick reads and getting the ball out way quicker than Ben does. He's pretty slow at going through his progressions, but he does make up for that a bit with his escapability.

You still aren't getting it... read what is written... Yes Tom and Peyton get rid of the ball quicker and make "snap" decisions... The Jets defense in the playoffs was a bit different than the regular season. They had been covering the short quick routes with bracket coverage basically daring you to try and beat them deep which plays right into the hands of their stellar CBs... Maybe you've heard of Revis and Cromartie? Brady (the master) was unsuccessful against this defense.... why? Because his receivers were reaching the end of their short routes and Brady (master of the quick decisions and short passes) had been unable to "solve" the puzzle. After his initial reads and progressions were finished... what did Brady do? Ummmm.... mostly looked confused and a little paranoid by the pressure from the D-Line that was now "getting home." What does (or did) Ben do when faced with this same defensive scheme? How about running for first downs... How about scrambling around and finding receivers for big time conversions (especially) on the last drive.See... it's easy to SAY that Manning or Brady would have been able to do better against that Defense....... except they didn't. Snap decisions and quick releases don't do much when the initial "planned plays" and "short routes" are disrupted.How have Tom and Peyton dealt with that in the past? How did they deal with it this time? How does Phil deal with that type of situation? How about Drew?Rodgers would be the next best option (possibly the best) but Ben's just done it a little longer.Am I missing anyone? Romo? hahaha... sorry

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Except Brady did. His rushing attack has been just as good as Roethlisberger's was during their respective SB years.

I was talking about this season..

 

[Bayhawks]

I understand there are intangibles and not everything shows up in the box score. I also understand when you're spotted a 24 point lead and the defense puts up a TD, the offense can go into game management mode. Stats don't always tell the whole story. I give the man credit; he wins, extends plays, etc. etc.

But... 10 completions, 133 yards, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles (both recovered), one led to safety, and a "35" QB rating ??? And you're sure the top QBs in the game wouldn't have been able to pull-out a victory? I'm sorry, that's a big jump. You seem convinced the only path to victory is for the QB to "bull through" the defense. While I agree that Ben does have a unique skill set, so do other top QBs. They may not have made the exact same plays as Ben but who would want or expect them to?

To your point, Josh Freeman may prove to be the closest to Roethlisberger's skill set.

Agree to the bolded, but as I previously posted, he also has looked like the 2nd year pro that he is (at times). I'm not sure how he would have handled the pressure.But with regards to the stats. In order to get that big lead, Roethlisberger led the Steelers to 2 key 1st half TD drives, where he had comparable stats to Brady's 1st half stats against the Jets. Roethlisberger rushed for a TD, though, and several key 1st downs on those drives. Who's to say that if the game had been closer, Roethlisberger wouldn't have posted 300 yards and 2 TDs like Brady? We don't know, but since the Steelers were ahead, he didn't have the opportunity. What we do know is that when the Steelers needed Roethlisberger to make 2 key throws, under Jets pressure, he did so, and won the game.

 

[Bayhawks]

I think you could have picked any number of QB's that would have won Sunday's game. Ben only made a couple plays and was rather pedestrian for the rest of the game.You're correct on that one play though. Manning wouldn't have been able to escape the rush only to throw an interception. He would have just been sacked.I don't think the game would have been that close with most of the other elite QB's. They alude pressure by making quick reads and getting the ball out way quicker than Ben does. He's pretty slow at going through his progressions, but he does make up for that a bit with his escapability.

You still aren't getting it... read what is written... Yes Tom and Peyton get rid of the ball quicker and make "snap" decisions... The Jets defense in the playoffs was a bit different than the regular season. They had been covering the short quick routes with bracket coverage basically daring you to try and beat them deep which plays right into the hands of their stellar CBs... Maybe you've heard of Revis and Cromartie? Brady (the master) was unsuccessful against this defense.... why? Because his receivers were reaching the end of their short routes and Brady (master of the quick decisions and short passes) had been unable to "solve" the puzzle. After his initial reads and progressions were finished... what did Brady do? Ummmm.... mostly looked confused and a little paranoid by the pressure from the D-Line that was now "getting home." What does (or did) Ben do when faced with this same defensive scheme? How about running for first downs... How about scrambling around and finding receivers for big time conversions (especially) on the last drive.See... it's easy to SAY that Manning or Brady would have been able to do better against that Defense....... except they didn't. Snap decisions and quick releases don't do much when the initial "planned plays" and "short routes" are disrupted.How have Tom and Peyton dealt with that in the past? How did they deal with it this time? How does Phil deal with that type of situation? How about Drew?Rodgers would be the next best option (possibly the best) but Ben's just done it a little longer.Am I missing anyone? Romo? hahaha... sorry

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Except Brady did. His rushing attack has been just as good as Roethlisberger's was during their respective SB years.

I was talking about this season..

Oh, OK. So you were talking about the 2010 Patriots team that had 10th most rushing attempts, and 9th most yards? That rushing attack of Brady's wasn't as good as the 2010 Steelers team that had the 8th most attempts and 11 most yards? Is that the Patriots rushing attack that wasn't as good as the one Roethlisberger had? The one that rushed for more yards and a higher YPC? Good point by you.

 

[treat88]

Turns out your team is the Steelers...

And yours is very much not the Steelers...this argument has bias flowing freely on both sides.

 

[Bayhawks]

Vick, Freeman... And I think if Brees/Manning/Brady were there, they wouldn't have had to do it the way Ben did, they would have employed a stronger passing attack..I would say that any of the top 5 QB's that have been batted around could have won that game...

I appreciate your response, but are you serious?Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't a physical runner, he's just a freak. He may have been able to scramble and gain yards, but I don't see him bulling through any LBs. Freeman is only in his 2nd year, and while he has looked good, he has also, at times looked like a 2nd-year player. To suggest that he would have been able to do what Ben did is possible but, (IMO) far-fetched.As for Brees, Manning, Brady, etc-I've already said that in their own offenses, with their own offensive lines they could have employed a different passing attack (although it didn't work too well for the Pats or Colts), but that wasn't the question, so I'll take your response to mean that you agree they wouldn't have been successful with the Steelers offensive scheme and O-line.

Honestly, it's hard for me to keep this convo going and not be very frustrated with you...Did the Steelers lose any games this year? To teams that have lost against other QB's but Beat Ben? of course.. The jets game argument is silly for that simple fact alone... Also, to say no other QB in the NFL could have one that game besides Ben is an incredibly ridiculous suggestion..And to think all along I thought you were a GreenBay fan for some reason... Turns out your team is the Steelers...

I'm not sure why you thought I was a Packers fan. I posted earlier that I am a Redskins fan. I'm not really sure how your question about the Steelers losing to any other QBs but Roethlsiberger is relevant. I've NEVER said no QB other than Roethlisberger could beat the Jets. What I said is that in last Sunday's game, with the defense the Jets played, the Steelers' offensive scheme/gameplan, and the Steelers mediocre (at best, especially in pass blocking) O-line, Roethlisberger is the best (IMO) QB for that set of circumstances. Brady and Manning are great QBs (and are better, in the overall picture, than Roethlisberger), but they typically need clean pockets to be at their best. Witness the previous 2 Jets' playoff games. Brees and Rivers are not runners, which the Steelers QB needed to be for the Steelers to be successful. Rodgers, IMO, would have been the next best bet.You mentioned Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't the physical runner that Roethlisberger is, so I doubt he'd have the success that Ben did with finishing several runs by going through defenders. Also, Vick tends to be most effective as a passer when he isn't under pressure, as seen by his success when getting good blocking early in the year, and his less impressive numbers later in the year when he was getting hit more.Freeman has a very similar skill set, but he's inexperienced, so I don't know if he'd have been as successful, but I never said he wouldn't, just that I doubted he would.You, yourself, said that Brady & Manning would have been successful, with a stronger passing attack. The Steelers don't utilize the same kind of passing game as the Colts/Pats so a "stronger" passing attack would have to have been tailored to their strengths, ie-not the Steelers offensive system.If you're getting frustrated with the conversation, feel free not to respond to my posts, but IMO, Roethlisberger is under-rated as a QB. Part of the reason for that is that he doesn't put up video game numbers, but he does things that don't show up on the stat sheet that helps his team win. He is the perfect QB for the Steelers system, but he could be successful (IMO) in other systems as well.Another part of his being under-rated are misconceptions. Your belief, for example that Pitt's running game was/is better than the Pats, when in fact, the Pats running game was better. The belief that the Steelers only won the last SB and the Jets game because of their D. Virtually every QB who wins SBs has a good to great defense. The adage "defense wins championships" isn't repeated over and over for nothing. Without his D, Roethlisberger wouldn't have won that SB, and he wouldn't have beat the Jets, but without Roethlisberger, the Steelers also wouldn't have won that SB, or beat the Jets.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Turns out your team is the Steelers...

And yours is very much not the Steelers...this argument has bias flowing freely on both sides.

I don't mind the Steelers.. The 2 teams I like are both really bad right now and have never been considered Steelers rivals.. Panthers/BillsI'm a huge Hines Ward fan... And Bettis.... Love steelers Def.. But I don't know why me pointing out that I didn't realize he was a Steelers fan prompted you to respond...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Vick, Freeman... And I think if Brees/Manning/Brady were there, they wouldn't have had to do it the way Ben did, they would have employed a stronger passing attack..I would say that any of the top 5 QB's that have been batted around could have won that game...

I appreciate your response, but are you serious?Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't a physical runner, he's just a freak. He may have been able to scramble and gain yards, but I don't see him bulling through any LBs. Freeman is only in his 2nd year, and while he has looked good, he has also, at times looked like a 2nd-year player. To suggest that he would have been able to do what Ben did is possible but, (IMO) far-fetched.As for Brees, Manning, Brady, etc-I've already said that in their own offenses, with their own offensive lines they could have employed a different passing attack (although it didn't work too well for the Pats or Colts), but that wasn't the question, so I'll take your response to mean that you agree they wouldn't have been successful with the Steelers offensive scheme and O-line.

Honestly, it's hard for me to keep this convo going and not be very frustrated with you...Did the Steelers lose any games this year? To teams that have lost against other QB's but Beat Ben? of course.. The jets game argument is silly for that simple fact alone... Also, to say no other QB in the NFL could have one that game besides Ben is an incredibly ridiculous suggestion..And to think all along I thought you were a GreenBay fan for some reason... Turns out your team is the Steelers...

I'm not sure why you thought I was a Packers fan. I posted earlier that I am a Redskins fan. I'm not really sure how your question about the Steelers losing to any other QBs but Roethlsiberger is relevant. I've NEVER said no QB other than Roethlisberger could beat the Jets. What I said is that in last Sunday's game, with the defense the Jets played, the Steelers' offensive scheme/gameplan, and the Steelers mediocre (at best, especially in pass blocking) O-line, Roethlisberger is the best (IMO) QB for that set of circumstances. Brady and Manning are great QBs (and are better, in the overall picture, than Roethlisberger), but they typically need clean pockets to be at their best. Witness the previous 2 Jets' playoff games. Brees and Rivers are not runners, which the Steelers QB needed to be for the Steelers to be successful. Rodgers, IMO, would have been the next best bet.You mentioned Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't the physical runner that Roethlisberger is, so I doubt he'd have the success that Ben did with finishing several runs by going through defenders. Also, Vick tends to be most effective as a passer when he isn't under pressure, as seen by his success when getting good blocking early in the year, and his less impressive numbers later in the year when he was getting hit more.Freeman has a very similar skill set, but he's inexperienced, so I don't know if he'd have been as successful, but I never said he wouldn't, just that I doubted he would.You, yourself, said that Brady & Manning would have been successful, with a stronger passing attack. The Steelers don't utilize the same kind of passing game as the Colts/Pats so a "stronger" passing attack would have to have been tailored to their strengths, ie-not the Steelers offensive system.If you're getting frustrated with the conversation, feel free not to respond to my posts, but IMO, Roethlisberger is under-rated as a QB. Part of the reason for that is that he doesn't put up video game numbers, but he does things that don't show up on the stat sheet that helps his team win. He is the perfect QB for the Steelers system, but he could be successful (IMO) in other systems as well.Another part of his being under-rated are misconceptions. Your belief, for example that Pitt's running game was/is better than the Pats, when in fact, the Pats running game was better. The belief that the Steelers only won the last SB and the Jets game because of their D. Virtually every QB who wins SBs has a good to great defense. The adage "defense wins championships" isn't repeated over and over for nothing. Without his D, Roethlisberger wouldn't have won that SB, and he wouldn't have beat the Jets, but without Roethlisberger, the Steelers also wouldn't have won that SB, or beat the Jets.

I guess I'm confused about your stance then, are you not arguing that Ben is better than Brady? I thought that was the point you were trying to make..

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I've said Big Ben was ahead of the next tier of guys under Manning and Brady BEFORE this year. This year only added to it provided more proof like 2 SB's wasn't enough.

I don't think Ben will ever sniff 40 Td's never mind 50 like Tom Brady did, but I don't think Ben cares.

It may not be long before the thread title isn't is Ben Roethlesberger as good as Tom Brady but is Ben as good as Terry Bradshaw when Ben is going for No. 4 or 5.

 

[Bayhawks]

Vick, Freeman... And I think if Brees/Manning/Brady were there, they wouldn't have had to do it the way Ben did, they would have employed a stronger passing attack..I would say that any of the top 5 QB's that have been batted around could have won that game...

I appreciate your response, but are you serious?Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't a physical runner, he's just a freak. He may have been able to scramble and gain yards, but I don't see him bulling through any LBs. Freeman is only in his 2nd year, and while he has looked good, he has also, at times looked like a 2nd-year player. To suggest that he would have been able to do what Ben did is possible but, (IMO) far-fetched.As for Brees, Manning, Brady, etc-I've already said that in their own offenses, with their own offensive lines they could have employed a different passing attack (although it didn't work too well for the Pats or Colts), but that wasn't the question, so I'll take your response to mean that you agree they wouldn't have been successful with the Steelers offensive scheme and O-line.

Honestly, it's hard for me to keep this convo going and not be very frustrated with you...Did the Steelers lose any games this year? To teams that have lost against other QB's but Beat Ben? of course.. The jets game argument is silly for that simple fact alone... Also, to say no other QB in the NFL could have one that game besides Ben is an incredibly ridiculous suggestion..And to think all along I thought you were a GreenBay fan for some reason... Turns out your team is the Steelers...

I'm not sure why you thought I was a Packers fan. I posted earlier that I am a Redskins fan. I'm not really sure how your question about the Steelers losing to any other QBs but Roethlsiberger is relevant. I've NEVER said no QB other than Roethlisberger could beat the Jets. What I said is that in last Sunday's game, with the defense the Jets played, the Steelers' offensive scheme/gameplan, and the Steelers mediocre (at best, especially in pass blocking) O-line, Roethlisberger is the best (IMO) QB for that set of circumstances. Brady and Manning are great QBs (and are better, in the overall picture, than Roethlisberger), but they typically need clean pockets to be at their best. Witness the previous 2 Jets' playoff games. Brees and Rivers are not runners, which the Steelers QB needed to be for the Steelers to be successful. Rodgers, IMO, would have been the next best bet.You mentioned Vick and Freeman. Vick isn't the physical runner that Roethlisberger is, so I doubt he'd have the success that Ben did with finishing several runs by going through defenders. Also, Vick tends to be most effective as a passer when he isn't under pressure, as seen by his success when getting good blocking early in the year, and his less impressive numbers later in the year when he was getting hit more.Freeman has a very similar skill set, but he's inexperienced, so I don't know if he'd have been as successful, but I never said he wouldn't, just that I doubted he would.You, yourself, said that Brady & Manning would have been successful, with a stronger passing attack. The Steelers don't utilize the same kind of passing game as the Colts/Pats so a "stronger" passing attack would have to have been tailored to their strengths, ie-not the Steelers offensive system.If you're getting frustrated with the conversation, feel free not to respond to my posts, but IMO, Roethlisberger is under-rated as a QB. Part of the reason for that is that he doesn't put up video game numbers, but he does things that don't show up on the stat sheet that helps his team win. He is the perfect QB for the Steelers system, but he could be successful (IMO) in other systems as well.Another part of his being under-rated are misconceptions. Your belief, for example that Pitt's running game was/is better than the Pats, when in fact, the Pats running game was better. The belief that the Steelers only won the last SB and the Jets game because of their D. Virtually every QB who wins SBs has a good to great defense. The adage "defense wins championships" isn't repeated over and over for nothing. Without his D, Roethlisberger wouldn't have won that SB, and he wouldn't have beat the Jets, but without Roethlisberger, the Steelers also wouldn't have won that SB, or beat the Jets.

I guess I'm confused about your stance then, are you not arguing that Ben is better than Brady? I thought that was the point you were trying to make..

No, I feel that Brady is better than Roethlisberger, although I feel that Roethlisberger's current numbers are comparable to when Brady was at this point in his career. I also do not think that, statistically, Roethlisberger will catch Brady, since I do not see the Steelers offensive philosophy changing to allow him to put up the kind of numbers that Brady has done in the last 3-4 years.I feel that Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, and Roethlisberger are the top 5 QBs (not FF QBs) in the NFL. Put them in whatever order you want.I feel that Roethlisberger is the perfect QB for the Steelers system, and that none of those other 4 (with the possible exception of Rodgers) would be as successful in that system, and with that O-line.The point I was trying to make is that I feel that none of those QBs (again with the possible exception of Rodgers) would have won that game against the Jets. Perhaps this is where I was confusing/mis-leading you. I don't think Roethlisberger is necessarily better than those QBs, but that he is better for the Steelers system than those QBs would be.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Some of this is hypothetical, since we haven't seen Rodgers or Rivers play the Jets, but we saw Manning and Brady fail when they played the Jets, so it seems fool-hardy to assume they would be successful, when they weren't.

This is partly why I started a thread the other day on the perception of how Brady and Big Ben played against the Jets.I realize we can't simply move production around, but Brady pretty much had 300/2 against the Jets and the offense produced 21 points against the Jets.Ben had 120 something yards and a rushing TD and led the offense to 17 points (less 2 points on a safety for those that want to factor that in).Theortetically, one could argue that in total Brady had a stronger game against the Jets than Roethlisberger looking only at stat lines.In reality, we have no idea how anyone other than Ben would have done in that game, so it's totally based on presumptions and guesswork.

I don't dispute a thing you say but I would add the 4 rushing first downs to Ben's stat line. Those were really big, especially the 3rd and 12 which came right after he took a knee to the hip.

Clearly the only thing that matters is winning or losing. But if we added up Ben's rushing yards, Brady had twice as many total yards and twice as many TD with half as many turnovers (and no safety) compared to Roethlisberger. Yet the perception of many is that Ben was a man amoungst boys while Brady puked on his shoes and choked the game away.I understand Roethlisberger had fewer passing attempts, but as already mentioned, maybe Brady or someone else might have been better able to get some completions without the need to scramble. Or with another QB perhaps there was a better game plan that would have been more effective.Who knows, maybe with another QB the Steelers would have won by 3 TD instead of a handful of points. I'm not saying that would have happened, but once you start changing the players and the game plan you can imagine different outcomes in both directions.I'm not comparing Ben to Trent Dilfer directly, but couldn't a case be made that with a better QB the Ravens team that won the SB would have been exponentially better and still won? I won't deny that the plays Roethlisberger made were gutsy and he took a beating to pull them off. That doesn't mean someone else would not have had similar (or greater) success. Put another way, stake another QB to 7 points from the defense, only 60 yards allowed in the first half, and a 24-3 halftime lead and I think a number of QBs could have come out of that game with a win. The Steelers ended up with 74 yards of offense in the second half on 26 plays with a net -2 points scored. Taken on a whole and given what the lead was, that really overall is not all that impressive. But yes, when it mattered most Ben pulled it out. The question then becomes would other QBs have even had to have gotten to the point where they needed to scramble and make clutch first downs or complete a last minute pass to ice the game. Perhaps they would have been ahead by enough that it never got to that point. It's theoretical, so clearly there are arguments on all fronts on t his one . . .

Based on the fact that his first meaningful snap after the Steelers went up 24-0 was when the game was 24-10 and the Steelers decided to take the air out of the ball what do the Colts and Pats do in a situation like that? Normally they keep the pedal to the metal. Again we are discussing only what we think would happen if either of those other QBs were in Ben's situation this past week but clearly that has been the Steelers MO when they are playing with a lead. They did the same thing a few years ago in the Super Bowl when they went into halftime with the lead. Ben ended up not throwing much before the final drive of that game either.You're right... It's theoretical but that's probably why this is so much fun to discuss

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

True. Much is judged based on winning it all. Yet, Roethlisberger has 2 rings already at 28 and is frequently not held in any esteem whatsoever. Many in this thread have said or insinuated that he's no better than the 7th best QB of the 32 currently starting, so I guess it happens more from the rearview mirror than it does when looking at contemporaries.

Here's the thing. We are comparing individual players (in this case QBs). On the food chain of QBs, based on individual production, awards, etc. Roethlisberger does not rank that high (or at least not right at the top). As you indicate, call him #7 or thereabouts.But when you start talking teams and SB champions, now you are comparing 53 man rosters, coaches, salary cap management, and drafting, etc. It's not just about one guy. Isn't it conceivable that the 52 man roster without Roethlisberger was in the elite grouping over the past 6 years and that that had a greater result to the success or failure of the Steelers than their QB? How about the coaching, drafting, game planning, etc. . . . wouyldn't you say that that was a vital piece of the puzzle?

I have always felt that QBs get way too much credit when their team wins and way to much blame when they lose. This year's playoff games have only confirmed to me what I already felt all along.

true

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I would think Manning would end up in the fetal position a lot wouldn't you?

That's not a serious question is it?

yes... a serious question.... what happens when a free rusher gets to Peyton? Have YOU seen him break a tackle and make a throw downfield?

Yes

That's not a serious answer is it?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I understand there are intangibles and not everything shows up in the box score. I also understand when you're spotted a 24 point lead and the defense puts up a TD, the offense can go into game management mode. Stats don't always tell the whole story. I give the man credit; he wins, extends plays, etc. etc.

But... 10 completions, 133 yards, 2 interceptions, 2 fumbles (both recovered), one led to safety, and a "35" QB rating ??? And you're sure the top QBs in the game wouldn't have been able to pull-out a victory? I'm sorry, that's a big jump. You seem convinced the only path to victory is for the QB to "bull through" the defense. While I agree that Ben does have a unique skill set, so do other top QBs. They may not have made the exact same plays as Ben but who would want or expect them to?

To your point, Josh Freeman may prove to be the closest to Roethlisberger's skill set.

absolutely.... I think that dude is going to be pretty dang special

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I was speaking specifically to David's point, not to the general discussion. But in this scenario, I agree Manning and Brady would probably be the top 2 taken (in some order) but I strongly disagree that Roethlisberger would definitely be below Vick, Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers if teams were drafting knowing exactly what we know right now. And putting him in a category with Freeman and Bradford, again based only on what we already know right now, is borderline insulting. It would really depend on the team picking and how you'd want to construct it. I think if the Steelers were presented with those options (off the field crap aside), they'd re-take Roethlisberger over any of those guy save for Manning and Brady. Do you want Elway or Marino? That sort of thing.

Is there anyone who would put him ahead of Brady in that situation? If not, then I guess that would be my only point..Ben vs Rivers vs Rodgers vs Vick vs Brees could be another discussion, but with the criteria above, I wouldn't rank Ben on top of that tier either...

I wouldn't put him ahead of Brady, but then this must be the 10th time I've said that I believe Brady is better. I wouldn't put him ahead of Manning either.However, I'd strongly consider him first in that next tier. People are mislead by statistics oftentimes, they don't realize that if Ben played in an aerial attack, his numbers would likely be very impressive. Just for laughs, I used the game log dominator here at FBGs to isolate Ben's career 40+ attempt games. He's only had 15 out of the 111 career starts he's made (9.6%) and in those 15 games is operating at a 64% completion rate and has thrown for 4,872 yards (325 a game.) Imagine what kind of #s he could put up if he got to throw that often as regularly as Brees (34.3% of his starts have been 40+ attempts), Manning (28.3%), or even Brady (19.6%) and Rodgers (19.2%.) Now granted, Ben's TD/INT #s in those games is only 23/23, but he had 6 TDs and 11 picks in his first four 40+ attempt games, which came in his first two years in the league. Since then, he's averaged the same amount of yards, but has a more respectable 17/12 TD/INT ratio. Again, the TDs don't dazzle you, but then, the Steelers don't throw as often in the red zone - using data dominator, NE, INDY, NO, and GB are 1-2-3-4 in red zone attempts since 2004, while the Steelers are 12th. Inside the opponent's 10, they rank 1-3-4-5, while Pittsburgh is 18th. Inside the opponent's 5, all four of those teams are in the top 7, while Pittsburgh is 28th.

dang

Which part? The part where you fellow Steelers fan says "I wouldn't put him ahead of Brady"

I don't think I've ever put him above Brady but I'm just saying he is in that tier right below Brady and Manning and if I needed to win 1 game I'm not sure that I wouldn't pick Ben.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I think a case could be made to the contrary here. Quick WRs with great speed and acceleration fit perfectly with the offense that Pittsburgh runs. Long crossing routes and "scramble" plays allow them to use their speed and acceleration to get open downfield. Their offensive line is built primarily to excel in the run game. Their "pass protection" skills don't need to be elite as Ben can elude defenders consistently and keep plays alive. Because their "pass protection" isn't elite they don't have to use early draft picks to select the guys they want (Pouncey is the exception). A power RB like Mendenhall also fits this system extremely well because of the slow track in Pittsburgh. A solid 2-way TE like Heath Miller allows them to use him in both the run game and the pass game. He is also a reliable possession receiver and a valuable redzone target.

All of these things allows them to draft defense....

Except if you actually look at the Steelers draft history, they don't usually draft offense early. It has nothing to do with Ben. In fact, Roethlisberger, a few years ago said he would like to have the Steelers draft a big WR for him to throw to. So who have they picked the last few years? Mike Wallace (6'), Sanders (5'11"), and Brown (5'10").

It's easy to say that they built the offense around him if you don't really look at what they've done, and try to make the facts fit what you want to believe, but that's not what happened.

They've traditionally been a run-heavy, deep-pass type offense. Roethlisberger just is the best QB they've had in a while to run the traditional Steelers offense

I'm saying they are drafting to his strengths. They don't care that he asked for a big target... they trust their scouting. I'm trying to focus on the fact that Ben allows them the luxury to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) their needs for a better O-Line and 1st rd "measurable-laden" WRs and rather focus more on "system" type playmakers like sanders and brown. They did try to get him a tall WR in Limas Sweed but his hands are worse than Dwight Stone's hands... By "ignoring" O-Line in particular, they have focused on replenishing and solidifying the Defense. IMO they wouldn't be able to "ignore" the O-Line like they have if they had Tom or Peyton at QB.

that's really all I was trying to say

 

[cvnpoka]

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

its really a simple choice. if roeth wins the super bowl this year then it is 3-3 in rings so i would flip a coin. if roeth loses than brady is still better 3-2.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I would think Manning would end up in the fetal position a lot wouldn't you?

That's not a serious question is it?

yes... a serious question.... what happens when a free rusher gets to Peyton? Have YOU seen him break a tackle and make a throw downfield?

Yes

That's not a serious answer is it?

Of course it is, and I'm not the only one that answered

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I don't think I've ever put him above Brady but I'm just saying he is in that tier right below Brady and Manning and if I needed to win 1 game I'm not sure that I wouldn't pick Ben.

Well, I guess everyone has pretty much answered the question possed by the OP then..No, Ben isn't as good as Brady...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

its really a simple choice. if roeth wins the super bowl this year then it is 3-3 in rings so i would flip a coin. if roeth loses than brady is still better 3-2.

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

 

[Football Critic]

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

its really a simple choice. if roeth wins the super bowl this year then it is 3-3 in rings so i would flip a coin. if roeth loses than brady is still better 3-2.

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

3 posts from you in a row, and no information just arguments, I'm not surprised. Do you ever have stats or fact to back your case, ever?QBs are judged by Super Bowls and wins in my book, and Big Ben is right there with Brady. Maybe allow others to their opinion, without making them feel as if they are not entitled to an opinion.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If they were both in the draft this season, you GM'ed an expansion team, and you knew about them what we already know, which would you take? You have first pick, are you picking a rookie Roth, or rookie Brady as your first player in the draft, and first player to your new team...?

its really a simple choice. if roeth wins the super bowl this year then it is 3-3 in rings so i would flip a coin. if roeth loses than brady is still better 3-2.

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

3 posts from you in a row, and no information just arguments, I'm not surprised. Do you ever have stats or fact to back your case, ever?QBs are judged by Super Bowls and wins in my book, and Big Ben is right there with Brady. Maybe allow others to their opinion, without making them feel as if they are not entitled to an opinion.

You following me now? lolI responded to 3 posts that were directed at me.. I could have merged the 3 quotes into one post but I didn't feel like it.. All we needed here is your opinion of the topic.. The rest of your post wasn't necessary.. "Attack the topic, not the poster"...

 

[Choke]

Dont act like you dont troll these forums. Youve been called on it repeatedly and even got told to refrain from it by Joe Bryant. Now you cry about someones "attack"? lol

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Dont act like you dont troll these forums. Youve been called on it repeatedly and even got told to refrain from it by Joe Bryant. Now you cry about someones "attack"? lol

Don't act like you specifically don't have a hard one for me... You and I have gotten into it too many times.. Now buzz off...

 

[Godsbrother]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...