Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (2 Viewers)

[Godsbrother]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

I thought you were saying the reason the Steelers beat the Jets and the Colts and Pats didn't was because Roethlisberger had the better running game. I was just pointing out that Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game last week.The thing about Roethlisberger is that he can beat you in a number of ways. He threw for over 500 yards against Green Bay last season because the game turned into a shootout. Last week he got the job done by running for some first downs and making some clutch throws while on the run when the Steelers needed to kill the clock. His stats aren't always pretty but more often than not he gets the job done. Say what you want about him but the guy is a winner.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

I thought you were saying the reason the Steelers beat the Jets and the Colts and Pats didn't was because Roethlisberger had the better running game. I was just pointing out that Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game last week.The thing about Roethlisberger is that he can beat you in a number of ways. He threw for over 500 yards against Green Bay last season because the game turned into a shootout. Last week he got the job done by running for some first downs and making some clutch throws while on the run when the Steelers needed to kill the clock. His stats aren't always pretty but more often than not he gets the job done. Say what you want about him but the guy is a winner.

Well, I'd attribute the "Getting the job done" part to the entire team, not just Ben..

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

I thought you were saying the reason the Steelers beat the Jets and the Colts and Pats didn't was because Roethlisberger had the better running game. I was just pointing out that Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game last week.The thing about Roethlisberger is that he can beat you in a number of ways. He threw for over 500 yards against Green Bay last season because the game turned into a shootout. Last week he got the job done by running for some first downs and making some clutch throws while on the run when the Steelers needed to kill the clock.

His stats aren't always pretty but more often than not he gets the job done. Say what you want about him but the guy is a winner.

Probably not best to invite Open commentary on Roethlisberger. The potential for it going bad is too large.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

I thought you were saying the reason the Steelers beat the Jets and the Colts and Pats didn't was because Roethlisberger had the better running game. I was just pointing out that Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game last week.The thing about Roethlisberger is that he can beat you in a number of ways. He threw for over 500 yards against Green Bay last season because the game turned into a shootout. Last week he got the job done by running for some first downs and making some clutch throws while on the run when the Steelers needed to kill the clock.

His stats aren't always pretty but more often than not he gets the job done. Say what you want about him but the guy is a winner.

Probably not best to invite Open commentary on Roethlisberger. The potential for it going bad is too large.

I may have missed them, but I'm surprised there aren't more comments about his off field encounters.. Seems like a fairly even tempered discussion..

 

[Godsbrother]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

I thought you were saying the reason the Steelers beat the Jets and the Colts and Pats didn't was because Roethlisberger had the better running game. I was just pointing out that Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game last week.The thing about Roethlisberger is that he can beat you in a number of ways. He threw for over 500 yards against Green Bay last season because the game turned into a shootout. Last week he got the job done by running for some first downs and making some clutch throws while on the run when the Steelers needed to kill the clock. His stats aren't always pretty but more often than not he gets the job done. Say what you want about him but the guy is a winner.

Well, I'd attribute the "Getting the job done" part to the entire team, not just Ben..

Of course but aren't we discussing QB play? Are you suggesting that when Brady and Manning win they do it singlehandedly?

 

[draino]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

Are ya kidding me.....Have you seen Brees' line? They have no tackles and he rarely gets sacked. Start watching some games of these QB's, They all move around the pocket and have excellent footwork.

 

[draino]

If Brady is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Manning is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Brees is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rivers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rodgers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB (although I love Rodgers mobility as a QB, he is not as big or strong as Roethlsiberger, and I don't think Rodgers would have been able to bull for the extra rushing yards that Ben did on at least 2 rushes for 1st downs).

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

Actually that is not what you said, you said that if Brees, Brady or Manning are the Steelers QB then the Jets are playing in the Super Bowl, so go back and read your ridiculous post....Again Roesthlisberger is a good QB just not great and will never be great unless he shows he can carry a team with his arm. Making 2 plays a game will not get you into the elite class of QBs.

 

[Bayhawks]

I'm saying they are drafting to his strengths. They don't care that he asked for a big target... they trust their scouting. I'm trying to focus on the fact that Ben allows them the luxury to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) their needs for a better O-Line and 1st rd "measurable-laden" WRs and rather focus more on "system" type playmakers like sanders and brown. They did try to get him a tall WR in Limas Sweed but his hands are worse than Dwight Stone's hands... By "ignoring" O-Line in particular, they have focused on replenishing and solidifying the Defense. IMO they wouldn't be able to "ignore" the O-Line like they have if they had Tom or Peyton at QB.

that's really all I was trying to say

I understand what you're saying, however, if they were "ignoring" O-line, 1st rd WRs & focusing on defense because of Roethlisberger, how do you explain the fact that they drafted in the same manner LONG before they had Roethlisberger?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

True. Much is judged based on winning it all. Yet, Roethlisberger has 2 rings already at 28 and is frequently not held in any esteem whatsoever. Many in this thread have said or insinuated that he's no better than the 7th best QB of the 32 currently starting, so I guess it happens more from the rearview mirror than it does when looking at contemporaries.

Here's the thing. We are comparing individual players (in this case QBs). On the food chain of QBs, based on individual production, awards, etc. Roethlisberger does not rank that high (or at least not right at the top). As you indicate, call him #7 or thereabouts.But when you start talking teams and SB champions, now you are comparing 53 man rosters, coaches, salary cap management, and drafting, etc. It's not just about one guy. Isn't it conceivable that the 52 man roster without Roethlisberger was in the elite grouping over the past 6 years and that that had a greater result to the success or failure of the Steelers than their QB? How about the coaching, drafting, game planning, etc. . . . wouyldn't you say that that was a vital piece of the puzzle?

I have always felt that QBs get way too much credit when their team wins and way to much blame when they lose. This year's playoff games have only confirmed to me what I already felt all along.

true

It is true, but there's a reason for that. The QB position is the most critical, and more often than not, the position that directly impacts the final result more than any other individual. To David's point, of course there were myriad pieces to the puzzle in both the Steelers' recent SB wins. However, most Steelers fans will tell you that Roethlisberger was the biggest piece. That's why I don't think it's entirely fair to say that individually, as a player, he ranks around #7, but organizationally, they rank higher. The Steelers don't win either of those two Super Bowls without a large number of plays Roethlisberger made, and I'm not sure if there's another single player about whom you can make that statement. SO, I think when evaluating/ranking Roethlisberger as a player, that should factor into the debate. One could argue it's more important than Pro Bowls or other statistical achievements.

 

[draino]

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?

Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

Or he could just post a QB rating of 22.6 and hope the running game and the defense bail him out in the Superbowl. But lets face it. If Manning, Montana, Elway, Unitas, Marino, or Superman would have played in that Superbowl then Pittsburgh would have lost.

You crack me up.

Well, do you have a point.

Most 23 year olds tear up the NFL. Play lights out and win three straight games on the road in the playoffs, and then go onto the SB.

What was Drew Brees doing when he was 23 again?

14/23 208 3TDs (down 17-7, brings em back to win)

14/24 197 2TDs 1int (against the super power colts and the game saving tackle?)

21/29 275 3TDs (third in a row on the road)

BigBen year #2 playoff totals, incl Super Bowl ...

58/93 62.5% 803 9TDs 1Int. (4g)

Brady in year #2, his first Super Bowl win...

60/97 61.9% 573 2TDs 1Int. (3g)

PManning year #2, playoff...

19/42 45.2% 227 1TD 0Int. (1g lost)

Brees in year #2... watching TV.

BGP!

Compare the teams also.... the Chargers just had the #1 pick the year before(traded to Atlanta) in Brees's second year. Complete rebuild in San Diego after the Ryan Leaf disaster.

 

[Godsbrother]

Actually that is not what you said, you said that if Brees, Brady or Manning are the Steelers QB then the Jets are playing in the Super Bowl, so go back and read your ridiculous post....Again Roesthlisberger is a good QB just not great and will never be great unless he shows he can carry a team with his arm. Making 2 plays a game will not get you into the elite class of QBs.

If you think Roethlisberger only made 2 plays against the Jets then you weren't watching the game. Being a great QB is more than just posting stats and even then when you compare Roethlisberger's stats in his first 7 seasons they compare very favorably to Brady's first 7 seasons as a starter.I don't think Ben is the better QB but I do think he is one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL right now.

 

[Choke]

Compare the teams also.... the Chargers just had the #1 pick the year before(traded to Atlanta) in Brees's second year. Complete rebuild in San Diego after the Ryan Leaf disaster.

I always love this argument, it happens all the time when discussing Steeler players and coaches, it goes like this.... "But the Steelers team is just so damn good!"Guess we will all just have to live with it.

 

[Bayhawks]

yes... a serious question.... what happens when a free rusher gets to Peyton? Have YOU seen him break a tackle and make a throw downfield?

Yes

That's not a serious answer is it?

Of course it is, and I'm not the only one that answered

You sure did, and you made a very convincing point with all the explanation, links, stats, and facts to support your response.Sarcasm aside, you're dead wrong. Manning doesn't break tackles and make throws. He is able to sidestep a rusher, move his feet and buy space, but he doesn't shrug off tackles and make throws (at least not very often). I know you're trolling, trying to get a rise out Steelers fan, but when you make statements like this that are blatantly false, or that the Steelers running game is better than the Pats when that can be statistically proven false, you just make yourself look foolish.

 

[Bayhawks]

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...

Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

To the bolded, why is it that "Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of," but Brady seemingly carried his teams to the SB?As has been shown, Brady had top rushing attacks AND top defenses every year his team went to the SB.

So, either qualify them both as winning SBs because of the team they were part of, or qualify neither. Otherwise, you show your bias.

 

[Bayhawks]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

Why is that a better question? I already posted that the Pat's rushing attack was BETTER than the Steelers this season, contrary to what you asserted as one of the reasons Roethlisberger isn't as good as Brady. You ignored that post, and now are suggesting that rushings and passing first downs for the entire season are the better measure. Don't you realize that when you constantly change you baseless arguments that it weakens your credibility?

 

[David Yudkin]

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...

Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

To the bolded, why is it that "Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of," but Brady seemingly carried his teams to the SB?As has been shown, Brady had top rushing attacks AND top defenses every year his team went to the SB.

So, either qualify them both as winning SBs because of the team they were part of, or qualify neither. Otherwise, you show your bias.

The fact of the matter is that *** ANY *** SB winning team is there because of the team/coaching/drafting/front office and not just the QB.

 

[Bayhawks]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

Are ya kidding me.....Have you seen Brees' line? They have no tackles and he rarely gets sacked. Start watching some games of these QB's, They all move around the pocket and have excellent footwork.

Seriously? The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

 

[Bayhawks]

If Brady is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Manning is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Brees is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rivers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rodgers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB(although I love Rodgers mobility as a QB, he is not as big or strong as Roethlsiberger, and I don't think Rodgers would have been able to bull for the extra rushing yards that Ben did on at least 2 rushes for 1st downs).

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

Actually that is not what you said, you said that if Brees, Brady or Manning are the Steelers QB then the Jets are playing in the Super Bowl, so go back and read your ridiculous post....Again Roesthlisberger is a good QB just not great and will never be great unless he shows he can carry a team with his arm. Making 2 plays a game will not get you into the elite class of QBs.

That is not what I said. Read it again, genius. There's this thing, called context. If you decide to eliminate the last part of my post, it changes the context. I enlarged the pertinent part, hopefully that helps. I said if those QBs were the Steelers QB yesterday (in Sunday's game), the Jets are in the SB. None of those QBs (IMO) would have been able to lead the Steelers to the win against the Jets. Actually, I say IMO, but it's my opinion only with regards to Brees, Rivers, and Rodgers. We KNOW that Brady and Manning couldn't beat the Jets, and they had better O-lines protecting them, as well.

 

[Bayhawks]

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...

Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

To the bolded, why is it that "Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of," but Brady seemingly carried his teams to the SB?As has been shown, Brady had top rushing attacks AND top defenses every year his team went to the SB.

So, either qualify them both as winning SBs because of the team they were part of, or qualify neither. Otherwise, you show your bias.

The fact of the matter is that *** ANY *** SB winning team is there because of the team/coaching/drafting/front office and not just the QB.

Agreed, so why is it that Roethlisberger's SBs are "dis-credited" because of his run game/defense, but Brady's aren't because of his run game/defense/head coach/front office?Not saying you necessarily do this, but that it happens, A LOT in these threads.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I don't think I've ever put him above Brady but I'm just saying he is in that tier right below Brady and Manning and if I needed to win 1 game I'm not sure that I wouldn't pick Ben.

Well, I guess everyone has pretty much answered the question possed by the OP then..

No, Ben isn't as good as Brady... but should be in the tier right below him & Peyton.

there you go... fixed.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

again not sure why that matters as their teams are constructed differently.... stats stats stats.... fantasy football driven I'm sure

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

If Brady is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Manning is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Brees is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rivers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rodgers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB (although I love Rodgers mobility as a QB, he is not as big or strong as Roethlsiberger, and I don't think Rodgers would have been able to bull for the extra rushing yards that Ben did on at least 2 rushes for 1st downs).

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

Actually that is not what you said, you said that if Brees, Brady or Manning are the Steelers QB then the Jets are playing in the Super Bowl, so go back and read your ridiculous post....Again Roesthlisberger is a good QB just not great and will never be great unless he shows he can carry a team with his arm. Making 2 plays a game will not get you into the elite class of QBs.

ummmm.... How about this

so to sum up... when he needs to or when his defense doesn't play like it is designed to play he has shown the ability to CARRY the team. Not sure how you can hold it against him that he is in the situation he's in with the team constructed the way it is constructed.

I liken him a little bit to Barry Bonds as far as his ability to be extremely productive with less opportunities being afforded to him to make plays because of how good the Steelers D is year in and year out.

....FYI they also both have abnormally large heads

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I'm saying they are drafting to his strengths. They don't care that he asked for a big target... they trust their scouting. I'm trying to focus on the fact that Ben allows them the luxury to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) their needs for a better O-Line and 1st rd "measurable-laden" WRs and rather focus more on "system" type playmakers like sanders and brown. They did try to get him a tall WR in Limas Sweed but his hands are worse than Dwight Stone's hands... By "ignoring" O-Line in particular, they have focused on replenishing and solidifying the Defense. IMO they wouldn't be able to "ignore" the O-Line like they have if they had Tom or Peyton at QB.

that's really all I was trying to say

I understand what you're saying, however, if they were "ignoring" O-line, 1st rd WRs & focusing on defense because of Roethlisberger, how do you explain the fact that they drafted in the same manner LONG before they had Roethlisberger?

I'm assuming that the transformation of the league into more of a passing league has put a higher premium on pass-blocking O-Lineman nowadays meaning maybe they were able to draft a skilled pass blocker later in the draft before but now you would need to draft them early.

just my opinion but I don't think it's a stretch at all.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, I'd attribute the "Getting the job done" part to the entire team, not just Ben..

Of course but aren't we discussing QB play? Are you suggesting that when Brady and Manning win they do it singlehandedly?

Not at all, I'm looking at their mental and physical tools/abilities.. And saying though Ben is good, he's not as good as Brady

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...

Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

To the bolded, why is it that "Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of," but Brady seemingly carried his teams to the SB?As has been shown, Brady had top rushing attacks AND top defenses every year his team went to the SB.

So, either qualify them both as winning SBs because of the team they were part of, or qualify neither. Otherwise, you show your bias.

I never said Brady won SB's on his own, or that any SB win wasn't a team effort, so I hope that's a question posed to someone else..

I rank Brady higher because of his abilities

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

Why is that a better question? I already posted that the Pat's rushing attack was BETTER than the Steelers this season, contrary to what you asserted as one of the reasons Roethlisberger isn't as good as Brady. You ignored that post, and now are suggesting that rushings and passing first downs for the entire season are the better measure. Don't you realize that when you constantly change you baseless arguments that it weakens your credibility?

I was responding to another post directly addressing first downs... That is what my post pertains too... If we're counting first downs now, we should be counting them all.. Not only the ones Ben got with his legs, in one game out of the season...Your attack on me isn't warranted at all though... I could make this personal as well but I haven't.. mind backing off?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The SB's don't belong to the QB only... You wouldn't be taking the rings with you when you picked a QB, or the team, or the coaching staff.. Only the QB and his skill set... Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of... Draft a QB only...

Are you saying that if the Steelers win the SB this year, that Ben is as good as Brady?

To the bolded, why is it that "Ben won SB's because of the team he was a part of," but Brady seemingly carried his teams to the SB?As has been shown, Brady had top rushing attacks AND top defenses every year his team went to the SB.

So, either qualify them both as winning SBs because of the team they were part of, or qualify neither. Otherwise, you show your bias.

The fact of the matter is that *** ANY *** SB winning team is there because of the team/coaching/drafting/front office and not just the QB.

zackly!!~!!

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I don't think I've ever put him above Brady but I'm just saying he is in that tier right below Brady and Manning and if I needed to win 1 game I'm not sure that I wouldn't pick Ben.

Well, I guess everyone has pretty much answered the question possed by the OP then..

No, Ben isn't as good as Brady... but should be in the tier right below him & Peyton.

there you go... fixed.

If that is your opinion, then you've answered the OP's question.. Brady is better than Ben...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

again not sure why that matters as their teams are constructed differently.... stats stats stats.... fantasy football driven I'm sure

I would say that the entire seasons 1st downs are as relevant as the first downs for 1 game only... If not more relevant..

 

[draino]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

Are ya kidding me.....Have you seen Brees' line? They have no tackles and he rarely gets sacked. Start watching some games of these QB's, They all move around the pocket and have excellent footwork.

Seriously? The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

You obviously do not watch Saints Games do you? The 2 Tackles are horrendous and the reason that they do not allow sacks is because of Brees. The Seahawks Defensive Ends had no problem getting to Brees throughout the game. I would love to see anybody say that the left tackle and the right tackle for the Saints are good....Bushrod consistently gets beat by every decent pass rusher in the game but when you get rid of the ball as quick as Brees then you look a whole lot better than you actually are. Maybe if Roethlisberger would throw the ball in 3.5 seconds then his offensive line wouldn't have to hold their blocks for so long.

 

[draino]

If Brady is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Manning is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Brees is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rivers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB. If Rodgers is the Steelers QB yesterday, the Jets are playing in the SB (although I love Rodgers mobility as a QB, he is not as big or strong as Roethlsiberger, and I don't think Rodgers would have been able to bull for the extra rushing yards that Ben did on at least 2 rushes for 1st downs).

I'll make you a deal. You admit that without Ben the Steelers wouldn't have won yesterday, and I'll admit that without their defense, they wouldn't have won yesterday.

You want to see if people would give him credit for yesterday's win. Well, guess what? He deserves it. Not all of it, but they don't win that game with many other people at QB.

You got this part wrong, If Roethlisberger was the Saints Qb then they do not make playoffs this year or win the Super Bowl last year...If Roethisberger was the Colts QB then they would be 8-8 consistently every year until they get some offensive balance. Ben does not carry teams! He is good but take off the Black and yellow glasses and realize that. He is not a HOF but might get in because ESPN controls everything about sports. I wish Brees only had to make 2 or 3 plays a game then he might have 4 rings.

I'm not sure how I got anything wrong. I never made any claims about what Roethlisberger would or would not do as Saints or Colts QB. Perhaps you should try reading the entire thread, or at least the parts applicable to what you quote, before you post foolish commentary?Brees is a better fit for the Saints offense than Roethlisberger, and Manning is a better fit for the Colts offense than Roethlisberger, but (and this was my point), Roethlisberger is a better fit for the Steelers offense than Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, etc is.

With the Steelers offense (and their underwhelming O-line), to win 2 SBs (and have a shot at a 3rd) a QB would need to be able to withstand hits, make throws after taking hits/escaping pressure, run for yardage when necessary, and be able to throw the ball deep. In the Jets game, a QB without those skills would not have been able to help the Steelers win. Roethlisberger is the best QB with that skill-set in the NFL.

HTH.

ETA-I'm not a Steelers fan, so there's no homerism here. Unfortunately, I'm a Redskins fan, which has sucked for, oh I don't know, the last decade. That being said, I am also a football fan, and Roethlisberger is a good (and under-rated) football player.

Actually that is not what you said, you said that if Brees, Brady or Manning are the Steelers QB then the Jets are playing in the Super Bowl, so go back and read your ridiculous post....Again Roesthlisberger is a good QB just not great and will never be great unless he shows he can carry a team with his arm. Making 2 plays a game will not get you into the elite class of QBs.

ummmm.... How about this

so to sum up... when he needs to or when his defense doesn't play like it is designed to play he has shown the ability to CARRY the team. Not sure how you can hold it against him that he is in the situation he's in with the team constructed the way it is constructed.

I liken him a little bit to Barry Bonds as far as his ability to be extremely productive with less opportunities being afforded to him to make plays because of how good the Steelers D is year in and year out.

....FYI they also both have abnormally large heads

Lol....They both have abnormally large head! ok so we agree on something. He and Rodgers both played great in that game in which neither defense showed up. I can talk about the Super Bowl against the Seahawks where Randle El was the best Steelers Qb on the field...lol. Where Big Ben failed to show up and had the worst super bowl ever for a QB. He probably will go down as another Aikman with 3 SB wins. I just don't think he will ever be considered one of the best ever.....If he wins is he in top 5? Please no Steeler fans.........Aikman isn't and neither is Bradshaw, because it takes more than just rings to be considered elite. The one thing ESPN has no clue about. The Ultimate team sport and they are going to rely on rings to determine everything about QB.....What a bunch of idiots!

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

Are ya kidding me.....Have you seen Brees' line? They have no tackles and he rarely gets sacked. Start watching some games of these QB's, They all move around the pocket and have excellent footwork.

Seriously? The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

You obviously do not watch Saints Games do you? The 2 Tackles are horrendous and the reason that they do not allow sacks is because of Brees. The Seahawks Defensive Ends had no problem getting to Brees throughout the game. I would love to see anybody say that the left tackle and the right tackle for the Saints are good....Bushrod consistently gets beat by every decent pass rusher in the game but when you get rid of the ball as quick as Brees then you look a whole lot better than you actually are. Maybe if Roethlisberger would throw the ball in 3.5 seconds then his offensive line wouldn't have to hold their blocks for so long.

I guess that can go both ways then as you obviously do not watch Steelers games... As has been explained earlier the Saints and Steelers run different systems entirely. Shawn Payton's system is very unique with a ton of little screens and swing passes to the RBs (when healthy) and also a lot of shots downfield. I'm just asking because I don't know but how often do the Saints completely empty the backfield like the steelers do?A lot of times it wouldn't matter if Ben would be able to get rid of the ball in 3.5 seconds because someone is in his face before that. The Steelers call a lot of 5 to 7 step drops for deep outs, crosses, seam routes, etc.

Are you really gonna try to tell me that the Saints tackles are worse than Scott & Flozell?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Lol....They both have abnormally large head! ok so we agree on something. He and Rodgers both played great in that game in which neither defense showed up. I can talk about the Super Bowl against the Seahawks where Randle El was the best Steelers Qb on the field...lol. Where Big Ben failed to show up and had the worst super bowl ever for a QB. He probably will go down as another Aikman with 3 SB wins. I just don't think he will ever be considered one of the best ever.....If he wins is he in top 5? Please no Steeler fans.........Aikman isn't and neither is Bradshaw, because it takes more than just rings to be considered elite. The one thing ESPN has no clue about. The Ultimate team sport and they are going to rely on rings to determine everything about QB.....What a bunch of idiots!

I think he compares more to a John Elway than a Troy Aikman. Physically they were built similarly and they both seemed to have that IT factor to get it done in crunch time. Haha... Randle El had the best THROW in that game but Hasselbeck was the best QB that day and the Hawks prolly would have won if Darrel Jackson knew how to stay in bounds.Even as bad as he played... He did convert a couple of big 3rd downs including a 3rd & 28. I love that he doesn't (normally) let the situation get to him. Peyton gets (and shows) his frustration... Brady stays calm (normally) but also seems to try and force it at times when he is getting beat around consistently. Cutler just quits haha

 

[Bayhawks]

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Roethlisberger was a big part of the rushing game vs the Jets. The Steelers rushed for 10 first downs, Ben accounted for 4 of them. He also had a rushing touchdown. Without those runs there is a good chance the Jets are in the Super Bowl. How many first downs did Manning or Brady run for vs the Jets?

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

Why is that a better question? I already posted that the Pat's rushing attack was BETTER than the Steelers this season, contrary to what you asserted as one of the reasons Roethlisberger isn't as good as Brady. You ignored that post, and now are suggesting that rushings and passing first downs for the entire season are the better measure. Don't you realize that when you constantly change you baseless arguments that it weakens your credibility?

I was responding to another post directly addressing first downs... That is what my post pertains too... If we're counting first downs now, we should be counting them all.. Not only the ones Ben got with his legs, in one game out of the season...Your attack on me isn't warranted at all though... I could make this personal as well but I haven't.. mind backing off?

I re-read the post, and am still unable to see how I'm "attacking" you or how I am "making this personal." Maybe you need a thicker skin?You made a comment a few pages back saying that Roethlisberger's always had a top rushing attack to rely on, while Brady hasn't (worded something like that-not an exact quote). I posted saying that's not true, that Brady had good rushing attacks and good D's in all his SB years. You responded I meant this year (again, not exact quote, but that was the gist). I responded with the facts, which is that this year, the Pats rushing game was better than the Steelers. You ignored this post (since it showed that you were basing your belief that Roethlisberger's rushing game has helped carry him, while Brady hasn't had that "help") because it showed that you were basing part of your argument on misconceptions, rather than on facts. Yet when another poster responded to the same post, you quickly respond with the "lets check all first downs" post. I merely pointed out that you hadn't acknowledged that you were wrong about the rushing attack which shows that Brady has had as much "help" from his run game as Roethlisberger, if not more. I also pointed out that when you ignore facts that you don't like or change your argument to fit the facts, you lose credibility. If you take these things as attacks, you are too sensitive.

 

[Bayhawks]

The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

You obviously do not watch Saints Games do you?

No, I don't watch every Saints game. Nor do I get to watch every Redskins game, or every Steelers game for that matter. The FACT is, however, that the Saints line has (for the past few years) been viewed as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines. That is not my opinion or my ranking, but rather the result of numerous O-line rankings the last few years.

The 2 Tackles are horrendous and the reason that they do not allow sacks is because of Brees. The Seahawks Defensive Ends had no problem getting to Brees throughout the game. I would love to see anybody say that the left tackle and the right tackle for the Saints are good....Bushrod consistently gets beat by every decent pass rusher in the game but when you get rid of the ball as quick as Brees then you look a whole lot better than you actually are.

Definitely agree that Brees is a great QB and can make his O-line look better than it is. The FACT remains, however, that they have been ranked as a top O-line. If you think it is solely because of Brees, you are entitled to that opinion.

Maybe if Roethlisberger would throw the ball in 3.5 seconds then his offensive line wouldn't have to hold their blocks for so long.

Based on this statement, I would have to guess that you don't watch many Steelers games, or have much knowledge about their offensive philosophy (and haven't read this entire thread, as the following has been posted at least twice previously).The Steelers offense doesn't feature many quick throws. Roethlisberger doesn't throw the ball in 3.5 seconds because the offense doesn't call for that. That would be like me asking why Brees doesn't hold the ball longer, in order to allow his receivers to get open deep more often. The answer is because that's not how the offense works.

 

[Bayhawks]

I'm saying they are drafting to his strengths. They don't care that he asked for a big target... they trust their scouting. I'm trying to focus on the fact that Ben allows them the luxury to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) their needs for a better O-Line and 1st rd "measurable-laden" WRs and rather focus more on "system" type playmakers like sanders and brown. They did try to get him a tall WR in Limas Sweed but his hands are worse than Dwight Stone's hands... By "ignoring" O-Line in particular, they have focused on replenishing and solidifying the Defense. IMO they wouldn't be able to "ignore" the O-Line like they have if they had Tom or Peyton at QB.

that's really all I was trying to say

I understand what you're saying, however, if they were "ignoring" O-line, 1st rd WRs & focusing on defense because of Roethlisberger, how do you explain the fact that they drafted in the same manner LONG before they had Roethlisberger?

I'm assuming that the transformation of the league into more of a passing league has put a higher premium on pass-blocking O-Lineman nowadays meaning maybe they were able to draft a skilled pass blocker later in the draft before but now you would need to draft them early.

just my opinion but I don't think it's a stretch at all.

It's not a stretch, and could be part of the reason. However, based on the way the Steelers deal with their own players, and prospective (FA and draft) players, I doubt it's the main reason.The Steelers have ALWAYS focused on defense and tried to get bargains at the "lesser positions" like O-line. They also tend to try to save money on those other positions, and don't pay big money there. Their philosophy has been (and this goes back to pre-Roethlisberger) to try to get cheaper guys at those positions, even if it means having lesser talents. They hope to find some late gems or cheap bargains, but they didn't make it a focus before Roethlisberger, so I don't think using this same pattern now as evidence that they "built around Ben" is logical.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Holy never-ending fishing trip batman.

Why are you guys still entertaining these clowns?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You made a comment a few pages back saying that Roethlisberger's always had a top rushing attack to rely on, while Brady hasn't (worded something like that-not an exact quote). I posted saying that's not true, that Brady had good rushing attacks and good D's in all his SB years. You responded I meant this year (again, not exact quote, but that was the gist). I responded with the facts, which is that this year, the Pats rushing game was better than the Steelers. You ignored this post (since it showed that you were basing your belief that Roethlisberger's rushing game has helped carry him, while Brady hasn't had that "help") because it showed that you were basing part of your argument on misconceptions, rather than on facts. Yet when another poster responded to the same post, you quickly respond with the "lets check all first downs" post. I merely pointed out that you hadn't acknowledged that you were wrong about the rushing attack which shows that Brady has had as much "help" from his run game as Roethlisberger, if not more. I also pointed out that when you ignore facts that you don't like or change your argument to fit the facts, you lose credibility. If you take these things as attacks, you are too sensitive.

Pitts Rushing game ranked 3rd during the playoffs vs NE's ranking 5thPitts Passing game ranked 10th during playoffs vs NE's ranking 3rdOut of 12 teams....Pitt ran 74 times vs 51 passing attemptsNE ran 45 times vs 45 passing attempts - Larger % of Pitts plays were running playsPit scored 4 (average 2 per game) rushing TD's vs NE's 0Pit had 17 (average 8.5 per game) rushing first downs vs NE's 6Seems to me that Pitt would rather rely on the running game, and that their running game was more successful during the playoffs...During the regular season Pitt relies on the run a larger % of the time than does NE, and scores a larger % of their TD's on running plays then does NE.. 1st down % is pretty equal

 

[Bayhawks]

Pitts Rushing game ranked 3rd during the playoffs vs NE's ranking 5th

Pitts Passing game ranked 10th during playoffs vs NE's ranking 3rd

Out of 12 teams....

Pitt ran 74 times vs 51 passing attempts

NE ran 45 times vs 45 passing attempts

- Larger % of Pitts plays were running plays

Pit scored 4 (average 2 per game) rushing TD's vs NE's 0

Pit had 17 (average 8.5 per game) rushing first downs vs NE's 6

Seems to me that Pitt would rather rely on the running game, and that their running game was more successful during the playoffs...

During the regular season Pitt relies on the run a larger % of the time than does NE, and scores a larger % of their TD's on running plays then does NE.. 1st down % is pretty equal

And, yet again, you change your argument (stack the facts) to try to make your point, thereby reducing your credibility.Your first post about the running game:

Except Brady and Manning didn't have the running game to rely on that Ben did...

Then, after I posted demonstrating that Brady's run game was as good, or better, then Roethlisberger's during their respective SB years:

I was talking about this season..

Then, when another posted that Roethlisberger was part of the Steelers' run game against the Jets, you posted this:

I don't know what the #'s are, But a better question would be how many running AND PASSING first downs did Brady/Manning/Ben account for.. ON THE ENTIRE SEASON...

And, now you are posting that in the PLAYOFFS, the Steelers rushing game was better than the Pats. When it suits your argument, you want to talk about the historical rushing attack. When that point is refuted, you say you mean for this season. When that point is refuted, you say you mean for the playoffs.

Interesting.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

And, now you are posting that in the PLAYOFFS, the Steelers rushing game was better than the Pats. When it suits your argument, you want to talk about the historical rushing attack. When that point is refuted, you say you mean for this season. When that point is refuted, you say you mean for the playoffs. Interesting.

The entire season comment wasn't directed to your argument..The discussion you and I were having had to do with playoffs, as you have directly specified SB's... In the play offs this year the Steelers running game was better..Also during the regular season the Steelers were more apt to run the ball than pass it... Both in the play offs and in regular season, the Steelers are more of a running team. The Pats running game gains strength from Brady's abilities as he is more of a passing threat proven by stats.. The Steelers are more apt to set up the pass with the run.. again proven by stats and the percentage of their plays that are running plays..I've given you stats and %'s... Proof.. yet you'd rather attack me... Credibility seems to be your issue, not mine..When it comes down to it though, the discussion is about which QB is better and it seems that a majority agree Brady is better. The stats show he's better, the confidence their teams have in a run vs pass ration show as well... And in the playoffs, the running game did all the heavy lifting for the Steelers which also shows in the stats and run/pass ratio...Basically the only worth arguments I've heard had to do with wins.. NE had more wins... No, you mean playoff wins.. Well the playoffs were dominated by the running game... Well no, Ben's first downs... The ratios show first downs favor the running game as well, and Brady's arm...Brady is better than Ben..There are no credibility issues with statistics.. The stats can be proven.. You argue that Ben was the only QG who could have won that game, you can't prove that, an many here have pointed that out and also doubt the validity of that claim..

 

[Bayhawks]

During the regular season Pitt relies on the run a larger % of the time than does NE, and scores a larger % of their TD's on running plays then does NE.. 1st down % is pretty equal

This is rather misleading, BTW.NE ran the ball on 46% of their offensive plays. The Steelers ran the ball on 47% of their offensive plays.

So, the Steelers ran the ball 1% more often than the Patriots, but the Patriots had a higher YPC (4.3) than the Steelers (4.1).

Pitt scored 15 rushing TDs, but 2 came from Roethlisberger. NE scored 19 rushign TDs, with 1 from Brady. So, the Steelers scored a slightly higher % of their TDs on non-QB running plays, but it's a small margin (32% of NE's TDs were non-QB rush TDs, while 35% of Pitt's TDs were non-QB rush TDs).

Finally, you say "1st down % is pretty equal." NE had a 26.2 1st down% when rushing, while the Steelers had a 22.5 1st down% when rushing.

So, to sum up, you contend that the Steelers running game supports Roethlisberger more than the Patriots running game supports Brady. To try to "prove" this point, you stack the facts to give the illusion that this is true.

When the % of rushing plays is 1% more for the Steelers, you say "Pitt relies on the run a larger % of the time."

When the % of rushing TDs is 3% more for the Steelers, you say "Pitt scores a larger % of their TDs by runs."

You completely ignore the fact that NE ran for a higher YPC, and rushed for more yards.

When NE has a higher 1st down %, you say "1st down % is pretty equal."

Why do you ignore the fact that NE ran better and for more yards this year?

Why do you gloss over the fact that NE was almost 4% (3.7%) more effective at picking up 1st downs via the running game than Pittsburgh, when you emphasize the 1% more that Pitt ran the ball and the 3% more rush TDs that Pitt scored?

I'll say it again, when you try to manipulate facts, and constantly change your argument, you cost yourself credibility.

I expect you'll ignore this post, as you have ignored other posts that catch you making false/innacurate statements.

 

[Bayhawks]

The entire season comment wasn't directed to your argument..

The discussion you and I were having had to do with playoffs, as you have directly specified SB's... In the play offs this year the Steelers running game was better..

No offense, but maybe you should read my post again. I said that Brady's rushing attack has been just as good as Roethlisberger's was during their respective SB years.I didn't specify SBs, I said Brady's run game was as good as Roethlisberger's during their SB years. Nice try though.

I've given you stats and %'s... Proof.. yet you'd rather attack me... Credibility seems to be your issue, not mine..

You've provided cherry-picked stats that seem to demonstrate your point, but I've shown (see previous post) how you selectively chose what you wanted to emphasize in order to "prove" your point. The stats show that NE's run game was comparable this year to Pitt's. In some areas, Pitt was slightly better, and in some areas NE was slightly better. You chose to emphasize the slight advantages that Pitt had while ignoring the slight advantages that NE had. You were trying to "stack the facts." I attacked these misleading stats, not you. Try not to be so sensitive.

The stats show he's better, the confidence their teams have in a run vs pass ration show as well... And in the playoffs, the running game did all the heavy lifting for the Steelers which also shows in the stats and run/pass ratio...

The stats show that in the last few years, Brady has put up big stats. Before that point, he was at the same point in his career as Roethlsiberger is now, and their stats were comparable. As I've show before, NE passed the ball 1% more often than Pitt did this year. So you're saying that 1% indicates NE has more confidence in Brady than Pitt does in Roethlisberger? That's a very weak argument.

Finally, with regards to the playoff run/pass ratio; you are AGAIN using stacked facts. In the playoffs, NE (in one game) called pass plays 61% of the time, while Pittsburgh has called pass plays 56% of the time. When you factor in that NE was playing from behind (most of the time by 2 scores) against the Jets, and Pittsburgh was playing from ahead (most of the time by 2 scores) against the Jets, it would seem that the stats and pass/run ratio show that NE was playing catch-up, and Pittsburgh was trying to milk the clock, NOT that the Pats have more confidence in Brady.

 

[draino]

Brees, Manning and Brady wouldn't last the entire season with Ben's current OL

Are ya kidding me.....Have you seen Brees' line? They have no tackles and he rarely gets sacked. Start watching some games of these QB's, They all move around the pocket and have excellent footwork.

Seriously? The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

You obviously do not watch Saints Games do you? The 2 Tackles are horrendous and the reason that they do not allow sacks is because of Brees. The Seahawks Defensive Ends had no problem getting to Brees throughout the game. I would love to see anybody say that the left tackle and the right tackle for the Saints are good....Bushrod consistently gets beat by every decent pass rusher in the game but when you get rid of the ball as quick as Brees then you look a whole lot better than you actually are. Maybe if Roethlisberger would throw the ball in 3.5 seconds then his offensive line wouldn't have to hold their blocks for so long.

I guess that can go both ways then as you obviously do not watch Steelers games... As has been explained earlier the Saints and Steelers run different systems entirely. Shawn Payton's system is very unique with a ton of little screens and swing passes to the RBs (when healthy) and also a lot of shots downfield. I'm just asking because I don't know but how often do the Saints completely empty the backfield like the steelers do?A lot of times it wouldn't matter if Ben would be able to get rid of the ball in 3.5 seconds because someone is in his face before that. The Steelers call a lot of 5 to 7 step drops for deep outs, crosses, seam routes, etc.

Are you really gonna try to tell me that the Saints tackles are worse than Scott & Flozell?

I do watch a lot of football but you are right I do not watch every Steelers game, but yes Scott and Flozell are probably equal to Bushrod and Stinchcomb. Bushrod was a 4th round pick out of Towson and Stinchcomb is lucky he still plays. The Saints drafted a tackle this past season C.Brown but he was not ready. Maybe the Steelers should stop calling 7 step drops if they can't protect.

 

[treat88]

Maybe the Steelers should stop calling 7 step drops if they can't protect.

Steelers fans have been saying this since Arians came on board.FWIW, with the rookie receivers rapid development, the game plan has changed somewhat with more short routes included.I agree that Adams is likely than Stinthcomb.Johnathan Scott, even with recent improvement, is still barely back-up quality. I'd take Bushrod in a heartbeat.

 

[draino]

The Saints line is generally recognized as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines in the NFL. They were ranked #1 in several places in the pre-season, and they were a top-10 unit this season.

You obviously do not watch Saints Games do you?

No, I don't watch every Saints game. Nor do I get to watch every Redskins game, or every Steelers game for that matter. The FACT is, however, that the Saints line has (for the past few years) been viewed as one of the best pass-blocking O-lines. That is not my opinion or my ranking, but rather the result of numerous O-line rankings the last few years.

The 2 Tackles are horrendous and the reason that they do not allow sacks is because of Brees. The Seahawks Defensive Ends had no problem getting to Brees throughout the game. I would love to see anybody say that the left tackle and the right tackle for the Saints are good....Bushrod consistently gets beat by every decent pass rusher in the game but when you get rid of the ball as quick as Brees then you look a whole lot better than you actually are.

Definitely agree that Brees is a great QB and can make his O-line look better than it is. The FACT remains, however, that they have been ranked as a top O-line. If you think it is solely because of Brees, you are entitled to that opinion.

Maybe if Roethlisberger would throw the ball in 3.5 seconds then his offensive line wouldn't have to hold their blocks for so long.

Based on this statement, I would have to guess that you don't watch many Steelers games, or have much knowledge about their offensive philosophy (and haven't read this entire thread, as the following has been posted at least twice previously).The Steelers offense doesn't feature many quick throws. Roethlisberger doesn't throw the ball in 3.5 seconds because the offense doesn't call for that. That would be like me asking why Brees doesn't hold the ball longer, in order to allow his receivers to get open deep more often. The answer is because that's not how the offense works.

The Saints Line is ranked high because of their guards Evans and Nicks who were not high picks. Bushrod and Stinchcomb are horrendous Bayhawks. The Saints do throw deep a lot during games, they take at least 5 or 6 shots deep during games. Everybody says Ben holds the ball longer so that can contribute to line looking worse than they probably actually are. They are obviously pretty decent at run blocking. I just don't think he sees the field like Brees or Manning, but he does make plays when asked. Good Talk Bayhawks!

 

[draino]

Holy never-ending fishing trip batman.Why are you guys still entertaining these clowns?

Dynamite drop in Junior! Its just a bunch of talk if you don't like it to another forum

 

[Bayhawks]

The Saints Line is ranked high because of their guards Evans and Nicks who were not high picks. Bushrod and Stinchcomb are horrendous Bayhawks. The Saints do throw deep a lot during games, they take at least 5 or 6 shots deep during games. Everybody says Ben holds the ball longer so that can contribute to line looking worse than they probably actually are. They are obviously pretty decent at run blocking. I just don't think he sees the field like Brees or Manning, but he does make plays when asked. Good Talk Bayhawks!

I wasn't trying to suggest that the Saints don't do deep, but in the games I've had the opportunity to watch, Brees also throws a lot of shorter routes, as well. The Steelers don't throw many 3-step drop routes, and they throw deep routes a good amount of the time.I agree that they should call more shorter routes, but they call what they call.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I'm saying they are drafting to his strengths. They don't care that he asked for a big target... they trust their scouting. I'm trying to focus on the fact that Ben allows them the luxury to "ignore" (for lack of a better term) their needs for a better O-Line and 1st rd "measurable-laden" WRs and rather focus more on "system" type playmakers like sanders and brown. They did try to get him a tall WR in Limas Sweed but his hands are worse than Dwight Stone's hands... By "ignoring" O-Line in particular, they have focused on replenishing and solidifying the Defense. IMO they wouldn't be able to "ignore" the O-Line like they have if they had Tom or Peyton at QB.

that's really all I was trying to say

I understand what you're saying, however, if they were "ignoring" O-line, 1st rd WRs & focusing on defense because of Roethlisberger, how do you explain the fact that they drafted in the same manner LONG before they had Roethlisberger?

I'm assuming that the transformation of the league into more of a passing league has put a higher premium on pass-blocking O-Lineman nowadays meaning maybe they were able to draft a skilled pass blocker later in the draft before but now you would need to draft them early.

just my opinion but I don't think it's a stretch at all.

It's not a stretch, and could be part of the reason. However, based on the way the Steelers deal with their own players, and prospective (FA and draft) players, I doubt it's the main reason.The Steelers have ALWAYS focused on defense and tried to get bargains at the "lesser positions" like O-line. They also tend to try to save money on those other positions, and don't pay big money there. Their philosophy has been (and this goes back to pre-Roethlisberger) to try to get cheaper guys at those positions, even if it means having lesser talents. They hope to find some late gems or cheap bargains, but they didn't make it a focus before Roethlisberger, so I don't think using this same pattern now as evidence that they "built around Ben" is logical.

yeah i suppose your probably right.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

The entire season comment wasn't directed to your argument..

The discussion you and I were having had to do with playoffs, as you have directly specified SB's... In the play offs this year the Steelers running game was better..

No offense, but maybe you should read my post again. I said that Brady's rushing attack has been just as good as Roethlisberger's was during their respective SB years.I didn't specify SBs, I said Brady's run game was as good as Roethlisberger's during their SB years. Nice try though.

I've given you stats and %'s... Proof.. yet you'd rather attack me... Credibility seems to be your issue, not mine..

You've provided cherry-picked stats that seem to demonstrate your point, but I've shown (see previous post) how you selectively chose what you wanted to emphasize in order to "prove" your point. The stats show that NE's run game was comparable this year to Pitt's. In some areas, Pitt was slightly better, and in some areas NE was slightly better. You chose to emphasize the slight advantages that Pitt had while ignoring the slight advantages that NE had. You were trying to "stack the facts." I attacked these misleading stats, not you. Try not to be so sensitive.

The stats show he's better, the confidence their teams have in a run vs pass ration show as well... And in the playoffs, the running game did all the heavy lifting for the Steelers which also shows in the stats and run/pass ratio...

The stats show that in the last few years, Brady has put up big stats. Before that point, he was at the same point in his career as Roethlsiberger is now, and their stats were comparable. As I've show before, NE passed the ball 1% more often than Pitt did this year. So you're saying that 1% indicates NE has more confidence in Brady than Pitt does in Roethlisberger? That's a very weak argument.

Finally, with regards to the playoff run/pass ratio; you are AGAIN using stacked facts. In the playoffs, NE (in one game) called pass plays 61% of the time, while Pittsburgh has called pass plays 56% of the time. When you factor in that NE was playing from behind (most of the time by 2 scores) against the Jets, and Pittsburgh was playing from ahead (most of the time by 2 scores) against the Jets, it would seem that the stats and pass/run ratio show that NE was playing catch-up, and Pittsburgh was trying to milk the clock, NOT that the Pats have more confidence in Brady.

to further this point, if the Steelers DIDN'T have confidence in Ben they wouldn't have let him take that deep shot downfield on 3rd & 19 against the Ravens and they certainly wouldn't have let him throw twice on the last drive against the Jets including the 5-wide scramble play where he threw over 3 Jets defenders to Antonio Brown for the first down to clinch the game.

also as a sidenote... does anybody know how many yards Ben lost when he was doing the kneel downs to end the game? Normally you figure about 2 yards per kneel down but his last one he dropped back like 10 yds I think.

just curious.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I do watch a lot of football but you are right I do not watch every Steelers game, but yes Scott and Flozell are probably equal to Bushrod and Stinchcomb. Bushrod was a 4th round pick out of Towson and Stinchcomb is lucky he still plays. The Saints drafted a tackle this past season C.Brown but he was not ready. Maybe the Steelers should stop calling 7 step drops if they can't protect.

yup... you would assume that would be the logical next step but it just hasn't happened.

I'm not concerned with when they were drafted as often times that is not relevant to how they play. Players play regardless of where they are picked. You have a better chance of getting a stud earlier in the draft but its not always the case.

and for the record Jonathan Scott was a 5th rd pick out of Texas in 2006 and Flozell is lucky he still plays.