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I do have Ben ranked higher as a place kick holder although I have never seen him do that task.Romo can't even handle the pressure of a routine play like handle the snap on a kick attempt let alone lead a team to the Superbowl and engineer the game winning drive and throw the game winning TD.
In other words, business as usual.
Considering people routinely dis him for SB XL and say he only had one good drive in SB XLIII I am thinking there will be plently to rip him for regardless if the Steelers win or lose Super Bowl XLV.
It will be what it will be. You can't say he has 3 rings if he has 2. You can't say he's 2-1 in Super Bowls if he's 3-0.However, the converse to what you're implying also applies. I'm willing to bet that many of the guys saying that "you can't rate QBs based on Super Bowls" and "SB wins are a team thing, QBs get too much credit for SB victories" will be among the first to jump all over Ben if he has a mediocre game and they lose. We'll get : "He sucked in SB 40, he was outplayed by Kurt Warner in 43 and James Harrison and Santonio bailed him out, and now he was outplayed by Aaron Rodgers and lost SB 45. And you guys think this dude belongs in the same category with Brady?
"It's far too predictable.
You're onto something here. Very few people placed blame for the Steelers two losses with Ben as their playoff QB anywhere else but on Ben. (So sad for you that the Steelers with Ben only have two playoff losses for you to enjoy, although the Packers have a good chance at making it three. You can only hope. But I digress.) And by the way, I feel to see where anyone has claimed he is the only or even the biggest reason the Steelers have won ten playoff games in the past seven postseasons.Some gave him a pass in the 2004 AFCC due to the fact that he was a rookie and that the defending champion Patriots were so highly regarded that they were a favorite on the road over a 15-1 Steeler team that had defeated them in the regular season.But virtually no one excused his play against Jacksonville in the 2007 playoffs. Even though he put up 337 yards and 2 TDs, these people were right.Three interceptions including a pick-six in each of those losses tends to do that. And Ben didn't receive much credit for the 20-17 win over the Jets in 2004. People who saw the game know why. And few will argue Ben was the reason the Steelers won SB XL. If you want to be a statistics only guy, you can try to say Ben was not a factor in the 2010 AFCC, too. If you watched the actual game, you'd know that wasn't true, but I'll give it to you anyway since I'm such a great guy.But you're going to have an extremely difficult time suggesting Ben doesn't deserve some credit for the other seven playoff wins in his tenure. Tell me why Ben should not get credit for helping the Steelers win while compiling these stat lines:14-19-208, 3 TD, 0 INT, 148.7 rating14-24-197, 2 TD, 1 INT, 95.3 rating21-29-275, 2 TD, 0 INT, 124.9 rating (1 TD rush)17-26-181, 1 TD, 0 INT, 98.4 rating16-33-255, 1 TD, 0 INT, 84.8 rating21-30-256, 1 TD, 1 INT, 93.2 rating19-32-226, 2 TD, 0 INT, 101.8 ratingKeep in mind that in Indy's 2006 SB winning run, Peyton Manning failed to achieve a rating higher than in the above list in even one of the games.Peyton won MVP that year with the best of the four: 25-38-247, 1 TD, 1 INT, 81.8 ratingWe now return to our regularly scheduled bashing...
yep... and yet at the end of the game the Steelers were driving with a chance to win the game and Heath Miller fumbled the ball away... Ben definitely choked!!One thing I noticed when Ben faced the Saints earlier in the season is that if he faces a good secondary, apply some heat and shut down the run game he is a pretty big choker himself. 3 points was all the Steelers mustered that day. Ben is a system QB playing in the right system for his abilities with a decent head coach. Romo has not had either of those things in place and has played for a dunce head coach in Wade Phillips for an offense that has lacked an indenity. Put Romo in a Steelers uniform and give him all the advantages Ben has had and I think you sing a different tune. If you Remember right even the Steelers backup QB's won games in that system while Ben was out serving his suspension. As far as the playoff success of the Steelers goes, when you think of the Steelers, you think of Polamalu and the DEFENSE and that IMO is what gave the Steelers the edge in the post season. Ben is also not a technically proficient QB and he will never be regarded as Elite.Wait, are you Daniel Snyder? Or Vinny Cerrato? Because this is the kind of stupid #### I've heard from them since 1999.
That's the thing though, without some extreme help from those around him (namely, the defense) he doesn't even get to those "big moments" in the first place. The only year that he played with a defense that wasn't elite, Pitt failed to even make the playoffs. If he never had an elite defense there would be nothing to separate Big Ben from a dozen other quarterbacks in the league. Big Ben's "clutch drives" would be nothing more than garbage time TDs. And who knows, maybe those other guys are equally as good in "big moments", they just don't have other guys to carry them to those situations to show it off.Rex Grossman and Eli Manning are the two most clutch QBs in the league statistically, we just don't see it as much because unlike Big Ben, they can't play like crap for 3.5 quarters and then still be in a position to show it off at the end of the game thanks to help from their defense.Wait, I take that back. Each of them had a year where their defense was that good. Rex went to the Super Bowl and Eli won it. If their defense was that good every year, it certainly seems they would be "just winning" every bit as much as Big Ben does.
) while Brady won his 2nd league MVP and became the first player to win it unanimously.
I've said that Ben is an elite qb, but not yet on par with Brady and Manning, but how does Ben leading his team to 3rd Superbowl and Brady not even leading his team to the AFC Champ game make Brady look better? Is football about winning games and championships or just putting up pretty numbers?Thought this argument was silly from jump street, but this was quite the week for the Pro Brady supporters. Ben lost the SB and had a very pedestrian 77 passer rating to cap off a rather pedestrian postseason (but all he does is WIN!) while Brady won his 2nd league MVP and became the first player to win it unanimously.
You seem to have forgotten that Brady has three rings and Ben has two.And Brady has prettier numbers.And a couple MVPs.Big Ben is damn close, but he needs to clean up his resume a tad more.KY
That's the argument Peyton Manning fans use to support him. He puts up massive regular season numbers and gets awards all the time. Brady had a huge regular season.I've said that Ben is an elite qb, but not yet on par with Brady and Manning, but how does Ben leading his team to 3rd Superbowl and Brady not even leading his team to the AFC Champ game make Brady look better? Is football about winning games and championships or just putting up pretty numbers?Thought this argument was silly from jump street, but this was quite the week for the Pro Brady supporters. Ben lost the SB and had a very pedestrian 77 passer rating to cap off a rather pedestrian postseason (but all he does is WIN!) while Brady won his 2nd league MVP and became the first player to win it unanimously.
You seemed to have forgotten that I stated Brady>Ben right now. My post was questioning Jason W. reasoning for saying it was a good week for Brady fans because he was sitting on his couch watching football for the past few weekends and collecting deserving awards while Ben and Rodgers were playing for the Lombardi. I'm pretty sure Brady would give up all his awards for a shot at the Championship. IMHO Brady is a step up from Ben, but this weekend didn't prove it.
Of course this weekend mattered. The entire crux of this "debate" in the first place was, "well if Ben gets three rings, he's right on par with..." no matter what his numbers said. Ben didn't get his third ring, he didn't play a great game in the loss, and Brady added yet another feather in his already considerable cap by becoming the first guy to ever win the MVP unanimously.This is a Brady vs. Ben debate thread. Patriots fans, OF COURSE, would rather Brady be playing for the Super Bowl than winning an MVP. But that's not what this thread is specifically about.
Why? Peyton has lost a SB, he's still a great QB. Brady has lost a SB, he's still a great QB.That being said, if my rankings mattered (which they don't), yesterday's performance moves Rodgers ahead of Roethlisberger, in my book.Rodges has put up better stats the past few years, and now he's shown that he can lead his team to the ultimate victory. Being able to put up good numbers & lead your team to regular season wins is important, but winning in the playoffs/SB is even more important. So now, I'd have to move Rodgers ahead of Roethlisberger, bumping him down to 5th.BradyManningBreesRodgersRoethlisberger
Doesnt the article (which led to this subsequent thread that was created) state Ben at 8-2 in the playoffs?
Still think Ben is ahead of Rodgers. He's got more time under his belt, racked up more rings and playoff victories. Need more of a track record from Rodgers. This is a perfect example of the "what have you done for me lately" attitude on these threads. People tend to ignore the player's entire body of work and forget about key moments that took place 5, 7, 10 years ago. Primacy and recency effect in full swing.KYBayhawks said:
So, L. Tomlinson is still better than Chris Johnson because his NFL body of work is more impressive?
Ben didn't look very good yesterday so I don't. Maybe he missed Holmes.
Rodgers is 4-1 in the playoffs, and has put up very good numbers in every playoff game he has played in.As for the "what have you done for me lately" comment, that doesn't apply. I'm not ranking these QBs as to how their careers have played out, or predicting how they will finish their careers. I'm talking about where I have them ranked, RIGHT NOW.
I'm a Steelers fan and not a chance that Ben is ahead of Rodgers right now. Rodgers hasn't been in the league as long as the other guys but that does not mean that you can't take his body of work and project what he will become. He has been good to great and every playoff game in his career (including the loss). He has been great in the regular season. He's done a lot of this without a stellar offensive line like Brady and Manning have had in past seasons. All of the other top tier qbs have had at least one playoff clunker. Rodgers was so much better than Ben yesterday it wasn't even funny. I shudder to think what may have been if not for all the dropped passes. He's ahead of Ben right now and in my opinion will be ahead of Brady and Manning soon enough.
1) This thread was on the first page long before I responded to it2) I've got nothing but respect for the Steelers3) This thread is about Big Ben, not the SteelersPittsburgh is, to my mind, the most storied franchise in the league and, as an Eagles fan, I can't imagine what it would be like to taste a fraction of their success. And the thought of many of those guys getting a third ring doesn't even bother me, as I'm always a fan of witnessing greatness. But Big Ben? Not a fan, and not sure why I need to apologize about that. Now that doesn't mean I don't think the guy isn't a good QB, or that he still has a decent chance of finding his way into Canton discussions depending on how the rest of his career plays out.Now back to your original point...it cuts both ways. You realize, of course, that if Pittsburgh HAD won this game, this thread would've been bumped 1000x by Steelers fans stating the case for Ben and his three rings vs. Brady, right?
sure wouldaand i tend to agree with you on Benbut seems like a lot of people could not to wait to get to this thread this morning to rub it in to the steelers fans in here that their boy messed up"HA HA, enjoy the super bowl loss your over rated QB blew it"i dunno, it says something to me
This is true but thats human nature. If Ben had completed that last drive, it would have just re-emphasized the point that Steelers fans have been making. Ben doesn't put up flashy numbers but he comes up big at crucial times. It was not to be last night and we can certainly put this thread to rest.
2) I've got nothing but respect for the Steelers
3) This thread is about Big Ben, not the Steelers
Pittsburgh is, to my mind, the most storied franchise in the league and, as an Eagles fan, I can't imagine what it would be like to taste a fraction of their success. And the thought of many of those guys getting a third ring doesn't even bother me, as I'm always a fan of witnessing greatness. But Big Ben? Not a fan, and not sure why I need to apologize about that. Now that doesn't mean I don't think the guy isn't a good QB, or that he still has a decent chance of finding his way into Canton discussions depending on how the rest of his career plays out.
Now back to your original point...it cuts both ways. You realize, of course, that if Pittsburgh HAD won this game, this thread would've been bumped 1000x by Steelers fans stating the case for Ben and his three rings vs. Brady, right?
What it should say to you is that Roethlisberger is not as good as most Steelers fans think he is. I thought it was funny this morning on Mike & Mike, when the hosts interviewed Chris Carter and then Trent Dilfer and began their discussions of Roethlisberger with "And even though it wasn't Big Ben's fault that the Steelers lost ..." and both Carter and Dilfer said, well, yeah, Ben was a BIG reason the Steelers lost the game ... And both of them were correct.sure wouldaand i tend to agree with you on Benbut seems like a lot of people could not to wait to get to this thread this morning to rub it in to the steelers fans in here that their boy messed up"HA HA, enjoy the super bowl loss your over rated QB blew it"i dunno, it says something to me
I'm sure some would, based on age if nothing else. But I'm with you.
But the real question is.....based on his Super Bowl performances.....would you consider Ben OVERRATED?
Had he won this Super Bowl? I would've considered him overrated because a country ton of folks would hold the "three rings, just like Tom" out as proof of his status against all else. Once the dust settles and this game isn't fresh on people's minds, and people now look at Ben as 2-1 in Super Bowls and his overall performance in the 2010 playoffs, I don't think he'll be overrated. I suspect the "consensus" view (if there is such a thing) will now slot Ben in a nebulous grouping with the likes of Rodgers and Rivers and Brees, behind Manning and Brady. Beyond that, it's all subjective, right?
Obviously Ben did not play great not even good, but he wasn't terrible. I don't recall Ben playing DB last night. I didn't see Ben make the call or miss the 52 yd FG attempt. Defense either had to make GB turn the ball over or at least stop some of those Td drives and force FG. Defense has been great all year doing that and they just didn't get it done on offense. Ben was one of the reasons why they lost, but not the BIG reason why they lost.What it should say to you is that Roethlisberger is not as good as most Steelers fans think he is. I thought it was funny this morning on Mike & Mike, when the hosts interviewed Chris Carter and then Trent Dilfer and began their discussions of Roethlisberger with "And even though it wasn't Big Ben's fault that the Steelers lost ..." and both Carter and Dilfer said, well, yeah, Ben was a BIG reason the Steelers lost the game ... And both of them were correct.sure wouldaand i tend to agree with you on Benbut seems like a lot of people could not to wait to get to this thread this morning to rub it in to the steelers fans in here that their boy messed up"HA HA, enjoy the super bowl loss your over rated QB blew it"i dunno, it says something to me
Maybe it just rubs me the wrong way that people say that Ben has "won" two Super Bowls, when in 2006 he did what he could to lose it for them and he did just that this year. At the end of the day, he still has 2 rings, but he has yet in 3 appearances to have a game like Rodgers did last night.
I agree but I will say that if Rodgers gets back to another Super Bowl with the kind of numbers he put up so far in the playoffs I would have to jump him over Big Ben most likely. My argument against Rodgers was that he still hadn't done it yet.... now he's done it and it couldn't happen to a better person.congrats....as far as the Bowl goes... normally Ben comes through in the situation like he faced at the end of the game but alas this time he did not. I think it's debatable that Ben played better against the Jets than the Packers. Just felt like he made a lot more plays against the Jets. Just my opinion.
Fair is fair, Ben played well in the 2nd Super Bowl.Vs. SEA -- 9 of 21 (43%) for 123 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs (25 yards rushing plus a TD) -- 22.6 passer ratingVs. ARI -- 21 of 30 (70%) for 256 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT (2 rushing yards, 0 TDs) -- 93.2 passer ratingVs. GNB -- 25 of 40 (62.5%) for 263 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs (31 yards rushing, 0 TDs) -- 77.4 passer ratingSo give him one awful, one average and one good performance.
Mostly because he hasn't played well in two of his SB appearances. I'd have Ben in the 2nd tier. Your top 4 are hard to argue against in any order though.Bayhawks said:
Brady threw as many tds and passing yards this weekend as you and I.
