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Is Cam Newton the 1.01 pick in dynasty startups? (1 Viewer)

Kordell, McNair, Vick, and Culpepper were all primary goal-line running weapons, along with providing solid to great passing #s at one point. Go ahead and look it up, Coop. Generally, as QBs develop, they rely less on their legs and more on their arm. If Cam learns to buy time and find the open guy in the red zone to the tune of 30+ passing TDs, then chances are he won't need take the beating involved in running 10+ TDs in himself. A realistic upside expectation is him settling in at 30 - 35 total TDs like other elite QBs. To expect more than that from ANYONE consistently is ridiculous. We know for a fact that Rodgers WILL do that for the foreseeable future, barring injury. It'salso absurd to dismiss the bust risk involved with ANY player after 11 career starts when compared to a guy who has done it for 4 years.
I am aware that his rushing numbers will drop as he gets older. That very well could be about the time Aaron Rodgers retires.I am also aware that there is a bust factor, though I am sure I find it much smaller than you do. I never claimed there was no risk and am fully aware he is riskier than Aaron Rodgers. But I think his upside is higher as well.The biggest point I can make, again, is that Cam is 3 pts a game short of the best QB season of all time. That is 0.5 TDs a game. He is currently at 12, IIRC. If we assume he reaches 18 in the next year or two, at this point in the season, (Safe, in my opinion) he equals the best season ever from a QB, fantasy wise. Now, adjust his rushing totals as you see fit, increase his passing totals as you see fit. We are still talking about a guy that averages, fantasy wise, what Rodgers has in his career. Cut his rushing TDs in half, and increase his passing TDs by only 50% and decrease INTs by 25% and he scores more than he did this season.
 
Cam is not the jerk that Jordan was (is), but he seems to share the chip on his shoulder, and the drive to be the best ever, not one of them.
I didn't get this from the Gruden interview. I got someone who expects to be the best. Expects it to come natural. I don't think we know yet what is PR and what is Cam.
 
Does Cam keep padding his FF numbers with double digit touchdown runs every year? Can he throw more tds than ints?
I think he is just as likely to double his TD total than cut his rushing TD total in half. If he did both, his numbers would improve.
Cam is on pace for 32 total TDs this season.Over the last 6 years (since his 49 TD season) Peyton has averaged slightly less than 32 TDs (rush + pass) per year in an offense that was probably as good as what we can expect from the Carolina Panthers over the next 2-3 years. Over his 13 year career Peyton has averaged exactly 32 TDs/season (rush + pass) Do you really think it's a safe bet that Cam Newton will continue to score as many TDs on average as the most prolific touchdown scorer in the history of the NFL??? Favre by comparison only averaged 28 or so TDs (run and pass) per 16 game season.It's possible, but I'd say more likely than not Cam will end his career averaging less than 32 TDs per 16 games. :mellow:
Good post. Favre did score 37 TDs per season (combined passing and rushing) over a a five year period (94-98) which as far as I can tell is the best such record for a QB. I think Cam has the potential to do something similar over his best five year period in his career, but planning on/expecting over 40 TDs/season (Nevermind 50!!) sustained over multiple years is just plain silly.
 
So after 11 career games, Cam has a non-negligible chance of having an upside greater than the greatest QB seasons ever? We'll just have agree to disagree then.

 
Cam is not the jerk that Jordan was (is), but he seems to share the chip on his shoulder, and the drive to be the best ever, not one of them.
I didn't get this from the Gruden interview. I got someone who expects to be the best. Expects it to come natural. I don't think we know yet what is PR and what is Cam.
He isn't humble about how good he thinks he is and he works his butt of proving it. Someone that expects it to come naturally doesn't work as hard as Cam does. I don't think his PR would tell him to talk in 3rd person or claim to be a franchise's savior (using the term entertainer). I think that is Cam: Odd. Just my opinion.
 
So after 11 career games, Cam has a non-negligible chance of having an upside greater than the greatest QB seasons ever? We'll just have agree to disagree then.
Fantasy wise, yes. 0.5 more TDs a game and he is there. If you don't think a rookie can add 0.5 TDs a game, over his career, from his rookie season - agree to disagree. The fact that what Cam is doing is amazing doesn't mean it is impossible to repeat. His numbers are what they are, because he adds a unique ability to be a dominant ball carrier. If what Cam is doing is too good to be true, in people's minds, that should say something about it.
 
We are trying to differentiate between types of odd here. Tebow is odd. Vince Young is odd. Donovan McNabb is odd. Brett Favre is odd. Michael Jordan is odd. Mike Vick pre prison is odd. Mike Vick post prison is odd. There's a whole spectrum of odd. Michael Jordan odd is a very unique type of odd.

The whole "entertainer" thing strikes me more as Vince Young odd, if we're being honest. Vince was pretty unstable though.

 
We are trying to differentiate between types of odd here. Tebow is odd. Vince Young is odd. Donovan McNabb is odd. Brett Favre is odd. Michael Jordan is odd. Mike Vick pre prison is odd. Mike Vick post prison is odd. There's a whole spectrum of odd. Michael Jordan odd is a very unique type of odd.The whole "entertainer" thing strikes me more as Vince Young odd, if we're being honest. Vince was pretty unstable though.
Who is to say who is right or who is wrong? He does remind me of Jordan. I see the same chip that makes the come off as arrogant. They know, and will admit/display how good they are before the rest of us are comfortable with it - both believing it and accepting their claims as such.I think Cam used the wrong word. I don't think he meant entertainer, in a traditional sense. I think he knew exactly what he meant to the franchise drafting him and said as much. That was not humble and was frowned upon. I think he said he was going to be the face of the franchise and be more than simply a football player (all franchise players are). Most people wouldn't make that claim before lacing them up, but Cam did. But he is proving it. The franchise, in terms of excitement level, hope, and other clichés, has done a 180. Cam was right and proved it. People just didn't want to hear it at the time, myself included.
 
'Concept Coop said:
'Coeur de Lion said:
So after 11 career games, Cam has a non-negligible chance of having an upside greater than the greatest QB seasons ever? We'll just have agree to disagree then.
Fantasy wise, yes. 0.5 more TDs a game and he is there. If you don't think a rookie can add 0.5 TDs a game, over his career, from his rookie season - agree to disagree. The fact that what Cam is doing is amazing doesn't mean it is impossible to repeat. His numbers are what they are, because he adds a unique ability to be a dominant ball carrier. If what Cam is doing is too good to be true, in people's minds, that should say something about it.
If you think Cam will average 40 TDs/season over the course of his career then of course he's a no brainer 1st pick. I think that's a ridiculous prediction personally, but it's a great one to pull back up in 15 years if you're right. Because it would be pretty damn impressive.
 
If you think Cam will average 40 TDs/season over the course of his career then of course he's a no brainer 1st pick. I think that's a ridiculous prediction personally, but it's a great one to pull back up in 15 years if you're right. Because it would be pretty damn impressive.
I don't know that he will average that. But he certainly has the potential to. He has already shown he can score 15 TDs a season on the ground (on pace to). He would only need 25 through the air to get to 40. I think both numbers are doable. Joe Flacco threw for 25, Matt Cassel 27. If they can, I feel comfortable saying that Cam can, and more. I think when you look at the TD totals individually, and not in a historic context, based on what others have done, it isn't the impossible feat it looks like on the surface.Cam Newton scoring 30 TDs is not the same as Peyton Manning scoring 30 TDs. Peyton Manning was never his teams goal line back. Cam Newton is. Newton's skill set and situation is very rare. We don't really have many past models to look at. Rare situations can produce rare numbers. If Matt Schaub kicked field goals, his points scored per season would be historic. It wouldn't be wise to claim he wouldn't be able to score more points than other past QBs who did not kick field goals. While not quite as drastic, Newton's ability to be a goal line back and situation (he is the goal line back) is rare and should be looked at outside of traditional QB season.
 
Otto Graham holds the all-time record for QB rushing TDs in a career w/ 44. If Cam continues at his current pace h'll be breaking that record before the end of his 3rd year. His pace is totally unsustainable. Other QBs have had one season in which they ran for a ton of TDs. The best running QBs EVER haven't come remotely close to averaging even 50% of his current pace over a career or even a 4/5 year window. The running TDs are totally an outlier and have a minuscule chance of being sustainable. A fast development curve on the passing side will provide enough improvement to maybe make up for his inevitable fall off rushing, and keep him about where currently is, fantasy-wise. That's his realistic upside. Projecting any player to shatter NFL records is beyond foolish. Particularly a player who has played in only 11 games.

 
Otto Graham holds the all-time record for QB rushing TDs in a career w/ 44. If Cam continues at his current pace h'll be breaking that record before the end of his 3rd year. His pace is totally unsustainable. Other QBs have had one season in which they ran for a ton of TDs. The best running QBs EVER haven't come remotely close to averaging even 50% of his current pace over a career or even a 4/5 year window. The running TDs are totally an outlier and have a minuscule chance of being sustainable. A fast development curve on the passing side will provide enough improvement to maybe make up for his inevitable fall off rushing, and keep him about where currently is, fantasy-wise. That's his realistic upside. Projecting any player to shatter NFL records is beyond foolish. Particularly a player who has played in only 11 games.
Too good to be true, huh?We haven't seen a Cam Newton before. When was the last time a QB was the best Goal Line back on his team, let alone the NFL?When was the last time a QB moved like Newton at his size?Otto Graham is not Cam Newton. Put Newton in Otto Grahams shoes, and the record is much higher than that. Again, don't compare Newton to past players that didn't have his talent/size/speed/running ability. Compare him to the ones that did. If he is the first, he is the first. If that makes him too good to be true in your eyes, okay. I guess he is too good to be true.
 
One point- Newton's completion percentage has already improved. His first 5 games he averaged 58.2%, over his last 6 games its been 63.6%. That's the kind of improvement you expect to see out of a rookie for sure. I think its pointless to try to guess where he will settle in, but the improvement he's already shown is encouraging. I suspect he will come down to earth in some respects and show the improvement in getting to know the game better in others. Newton's only 9th in passing attempts, so its not like he's slinging the ball all over the field to get his numbers. He does need to get his interceptions under control, but he seems to give them up in bunches (3 in two games, 4 in another) which could indicate defensive schemes that confused him. That kind of error gets mitigated with experience, which is a plus.

 
He's excellent and well worth a high dynasty pick, but I wouldn't be able to take him at 1.01. There have just been too many post-rookie season slumps to feel comfortable staking my entire dynasty team on him. I would take Rodgers and let the guys at 1.02-1.05 take the risk.

 
Otto Graham holds the all-time record for QB rushing TDs in a career w/ 44. If Cam continues at his current pace h'll be breaking that record before the end of his 3rd year. His pace is totally unsustainable. Other QBs have had one season in which they ran for a ton of TDs. The best running QBs EVER haven't come remotely close to averaging even 50% of his current pace over a career or even a 4/5 year window. The running TDs are totally an outlier and have a minuscule chance of being sustainable. A fast development curve on the passing side will provide enough improvement to maybe make up for his inevitable fall off rushing, and keep him about where currently is, fantasy-wise. That's his realistic upside. Projecting any player to shatter NFL records is beyond foolish. Particularly a player who has played in only 11 games.
Too good to be true, huh?We haven't seen a Cam Newton before. When was the last time a QB was the best Goal Line back on his team, let alone the NFL?When was the last time a QB moved like Newton at his size?Otto Graham is not Cam Newton. Put Newton in Otto Grahams shoes, and the record is much higher than that. Again, don't compare Newton to past players that didn't have his talent/size/speed/running ability. Compare him to the ones that did. If he is the first, he is the first. If that makes him too good to be true in your eyes, okay. I guess he is too good to be true.
Add Brett Favre's average passing TDs and Emmitt Smith's average rushing TDs per season and it's below your Cam prediction. Yes Emmitt's rush TDs trailed off as he got older, then again I think we can all agree that if Cam plays 10 years his probably will tail off too. This is the guy with the most passing TDs ever and the guy with the most rushing TDs ever.
 
Newton is absolutely nowhere near the first NFL QB to act as a short yardage RB for 11 games. Physically he isn't unique either - ever hear of Daunte Culpepper? Let's continue this discussion after you spend some time looking at stats from before 2008, mmmkay?

 
Cam Newton was inevitable.

The sport of football is still young. It was only a matter of time before someone the size of a LB could also run like a RB and play QB. Cam isn't the first sign of this and certainly won't be the last. More will come and they will eventually be faster, stronger, bigger, and better than Newton.

It happens in every sport. Football is unique in that the positions are so defined. Players play offense and defense at different, defined points in the game. There are more positions than in most sports. The positions have very different, very defined roles. The role of the QB is one of those defined roles. Eventually, players who can play RB as well as most of today's RB will also be able to play QB as well as most of today's QBs. The role of the QB hasn't been challenged in way that Newton is challenging it, very often. The experiments have been, for the most part, short and unsuccessful. But that was going to change. The "running QB" role is not done being defined and Newton will play a big part in doing it.

"QBs don't run like Newton."

"Cornerbacks aren't as big as Peterson."

"Big guys don't move like Suh."

"Defensive ends can't cover space like Ware."

All have be proven wrong.

To use an analogy, for those who follow MMA: Eventually, there will be a fighter better at boxing that today's best boxer, better at wrestling than today's best wrestler, and better at submissions than today's best grapplers. The evolution in that sport has been so drastic because athletes are far more developed than the sport itself. It is happening slower in football, but it is happening.

To end my rant, add Newton to the long list of athletes too good to be true for their sport. I just don't think it is wise.

 
Newton is absolutely nowhere near the first NFL QB to act as a short yardage RB for 11 games. Physically he isn't unique either - ever hear of Daunte Culpepper? Let's continue this discussion after you spend some time looking at stats from before 2008, mmmkay?
Did he ever lead his team in rushing TDs? How about rushing attempts in the red zone?How about be towards the league leaders, including RBs?
 
Coop, you seem like a decent enough kid, but there is no point in discussing stuff with you until you at least bother to look at some historical data. Do you really believe that Cam Newton is the only QB to ever lead an NFL team in rushing TDs or red zone attempts?

 
Coop, you seem like a decent enough kid, but there is no point in discussing stuff with you until you at least bother to look at some historical data. Do you really believe that Cam Newton is the only QB to ever lead an NFL team in rushing TDs or red zone attempts?
Thanks?Why don't you look it up? You yourself said Cam was on pace to shatter the rushing QB TD mark. I don't know of a QB, aside from Tebow, ever being used like Cam, as often as Cam, in the red zone. If you do, point that player out and we can discuss it.
 
Value over replacement Qb is MUCH smaller than the value over replacement RB of McCoy or Ray Rice.

It's not close. I'd take 5, maybe 10 RBs/WRs over Newton.

/thread.

 
Value over replacement Qb is MUCH smaller than the value over replacement RB of McCoy or Ray Rice.It's not close. I'd take 5, maybe 10 RBs/WRs over Newton./thread.
Adrian Peterson's career average is 100VBD. Newton is on pace to beat that.Open thread?
 
I'm on my phone so it's not easy for me to nest quotes or set up tables of stats. It's also not fun to argue with someone more interested in spouting hyperbole as opposed to looking at historical fact. I'm done, carry on with your love-fest.

 
Newton's running value is mostly coming from goalline which is a byproduct of running shotgun so often. Culpepper's 10 rushing TD season isn't really discredited by the fact that Moe Williams had 11 that year. 6 of the 10 TDs were 3 yards or less. Only 1 was > 10 yards. Culpepper got a lot of rushing TDs and a lot of them were goalline. They were not reliable year-to-year.

"QBs don't run like Newton." "Cornerbacks aren't as big as Peterson.""Big guys don't move like Suh.""Defensive ends can't cover space like Ware."
This is laughable.
 
If you think Cam will average 40 TDs/season over the course of his career then of course he's a no brainer 1st pick. I think that's a ridiculous prediction personally, but it's a great one to pull back up in 15 years if you're right. Because it would be pretty damn impressive.
I don't know that he will average that. But he certainly has the potential to. He has already shown he can score 15 TDs a season on the ground (on pace to). He would only need 25 through the air to get to 40. I think both numbers are doable. Joe Flacco threw for 25, Matt Cassel 27. If they can, I feel comfortable saying that Cam can, and more. I think when you look at the TD totals individually, and not in a historic context, based on what others have done, it isn't the impossible feat it looks like on the surface.Cam Newton scoring 30 TDs is not the same as Peyton Manning scoring 30 TDs. Peyton Manning was never his teams goal line back. Cam Newton is. Newton's skill set and situation is very rare. We don't really have many past models to look at. Rare situations can produce rare numbers. If Matt Schaub kicked field goals, his points scored per season would be historic. It wouldn't be wise to claim he wouldn't be able to score more points than other past QBs who did not kick field goals. While not quite as drastic, Newton's ability to be a goal line back and situation (he is the goal line back) is rare and should be looked at outside of traditional QB season.
But there's only so many touchdown drives to go around. Looking over the last several season, you get typically 1-2 teams scoring 50+ TDs, and 40+ TDs is a rough marker for a top 10 offense. (Just talking offensive TDs here) So for Cam to score 40 TDs consistently, you're basically talking one of two scenarios:1. The Panthers have one of the top 10 scoring offenses in the league each year, and Cam increases his share of team TDs from ~80% to ~95%.2. The Panthers have one of the super-elite scoring offenses and Cam continues to score ~80% of the team TDs.The problem with your position is that right now the Panthers offense in terms of scoring is literally the middle-of-the-pack. Of course they can improve, and I would say most expect them to improve under Cam. But even with 80% of his team's TDs, the Panthers are going to have to become an elite offensive juggernaut and sustain it over multiple years for Cam to get the numbers you want.
 
Newton's running value is mostly coming from goalline which is a byproduct of running shotgun so often. Culpepper's 10 rushing TD season isn't really discredited by the fact that Moe Williams had 11 that year. 6 of the 10 TDs were 3 yards or less. Only 1 was > 10 yards. Culpepper got a lot of rushing TDs and a lot of them were goalline. They were not reliable year-to-year.

"QBs don't run like Newton." "Cornerbacks aren't as big as Peterson.""Big guys don't move like Suh.""Defensive ends can't cover space like Ware."
This is laughable.
Glad to provide you with a laugh. They were not reliable year to year because Culpepper was not the goal line back year to year. Also, Newton provided a great deal of value away from red zone too. Most of his yardage is racked up between the 20s, when he scrables. Cam Newton is not Dante Culpepper. He has been used more at the goal line than Dante ever was. I also think he is better at doing so - more incentive for Carolina to continue using him they way they have been. You think the Pathers decide to run shotgun at the goalline just because? No. They do so because they have Newton and that is the best way to use him at the goalline: similar to a RB. The team gets an extra blocker and Newton gets a head start. The Panthers running shotgun at the goalline is a product of Cam Newton, not the other way around.
 
But there's only so many touchdown drives to go around. Looking over the last several season, you get typically 1-2 teams scoring 50+ TDs, and 40+ TDs is a rough marker for a top 10 offense. (Just talking offensive TDs here) So for Cam to score 40 TDs consistently, you're basically talking one of two scenarios:1. The Panthers have one of the top 10 scoring offenses in the league each year, and Cam increases his share of team TDs from ~80% to ~95%.2. The Panthers have one of the super-elite scoring offenses and Cam continues to score ~80% of the team TDs.The problem with your position is that right now the Panthers offense in terms of scoring is literally the middle-of-the-pack. Of course they can improve, and I would say most expect them to improve under Cam. But even with 80% of his team's TDs, the Panthers are going to have to become an elite offensive juggernaut and sustain it over multiple years for Cam to get the numbers you want.
Very good point. I think people are misreading my claim that he has the potential to score 40 TDs as me predicting him to. I think we can both agree, that if Newton continues to be the goalline back, 10 TDs is not out of the question. In order for Newton to average 40 over the span of his career, you are right. The Panthers would need to be one of the better offenses in the NFL. Newton would need to turn ints into TDs. And, most importantly, the Panthers would need to continue using Newton as they have been.
 
The Newton = Culpepper comparison is pretty silly, as Daunte never moved nearly as well as Cam does. Cam is one of the better runners that the league has ever seen at the QB position. He is bigger and stronger than Vick, Kordell, and V Young. He appears to be a much more gifted passer than the lot of them. I'm not sure the league has ever seen a QB with his combination of running and passing skills, so I don't know how useful it is to compare him to inferior versions of the same product. Cam Newton is not Daunte Culpepper in the same way that Randy Moss is not Javon Walker.

The difference for me between the upside of Cam and Rodgers is that Cam offers similar total yards/TD potential, but a greater FF ceiling because a higher percentage of his yards/TDs will be of the rushing variety, which are more valuable than passing yards/TDs in most FF leagues.

Rodgers is a phenomenal player, but perhaps a bit overvalued based on current form. He's on pace for 48 TD passes, which would shatter his previous career high of 30 in a season. What are the odds of him sustaining this level of production? It's impossible to say, but the fact that super elite QBs like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady only eclipsed 36 passing TDs once in their careers suggests that it's a VERY difficult feat. Unless you believe that Rodgers is and will continue to be the best passing QB in the history of the league by a wide margin, you have to believe that his numbers will slip a little bit. If his production drops back down to his excellent-but-not-historic 2008-2010 levels then you'll still have a great QB on your hands, but not a player worthy of the #1 overall dynasty pick.

It's not tough to envision a scenario in which Cam outscores Rodgers next season. I'm not saying it will happen, but for all the people doubting Cam's ability and upside, there should be just as many people pointing to the fact that what Rodgers is doing right now probably won't last. If you believe that Rodgers's numbers are destined to slip closer to their 2008-2010 levels and that Cam's will roughly stay the same or improve then you should favor Cam. Of course, no one knows exactly what the future holds. Maybe Rodgers is truly the best passing QB ever and maybe Newton is a flash in the pan.

Personally, I suspect that the value gap between the two is a lot thinner than the consensus would indicate. I think Rodgers is an elite, but I also think he's overvalued now in the same way that guys like Peyton Manning, Daunte Culpepper, Tom Brady, LaDainian Tomlinson, and Chris Johnson were in the season immediately following their flukish career year.

 
The Newton = Culpepper comparison is pretty silly, as Daunte never moved nearly as well as Cam does. Cam is one of the better runners that the league has ever seen at the QB position. He is bigger and stronger than Vick, Kordell, and V Young. He appears to be a much more gifted passer than the lot of them. I'm not sure the league has ever seen a QB with his combination of running and passing skills, so I don't know how useful it is to compare him to inferior versions of the same product. Cam Newton is not Daunte Culpepper in the same way that Randy Moss is not Javon Walker. The difference for me between the upside of Cam and Rodgers is that Cam offers similar total yards/TD potential, but a greater FF ceiling because a higher percentage of his yards/TDs will be of the rushing variety, which are more valuable than passing yards/TDs in most FF leagues. Rodgers is a phenomenal player, but perhaps a bit overvalued based on current form. He's on pace for 48 TD passes, which would shatter his previous career high of 30 in a season. What are the odds of him sustaining this level of production? It's impossible to say, but the fact that super elite QBs like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady only eclipsed 36 passing TDs once in their careers suggests that it's a VERY difficult feat. Unless you believe that Rodgers is and will continue to be the best passing QB in the history of the league by a wide margin, you have to believe that his numbers will slip a little bit. If his production drops back down to his excellent-but-not-historic 2008-2010 levels then you'll still have a great QB on your hands, but not a player worthy of the #1 overall dynasty pick. It's not tough to envision a scenario in which Cam outscores Rodgers next season. I'm not saying it will happen, but for all the people doubting Cam's ability and upside, there should be just as many people pointing to the fact that what Rodgers is doing right now probably won't last. If you believe that Rodgers's numbers are destined to slip closer to their 2008-2010 levels and that Cam's will roughly stay the same or improve then you should favor Cam. Of course, no one knows exactly what the future holds. Maybe Rodgers is truly the best passing QB ever and maybe Newton is a flash in the pan. Personally, I suspect that the value gap between the two is a lot thinner than the consensus would indicate. I think Rodgers is an elite, but I also think he's overvalued now in the same way that guys like Peyton Manning, Daunte Culpepper, Tom Brady, LaDainian Tomlinson, and Chris Johnson were in the season immediately following their flukish career year.
:goodposting:
 
Rodgers is a phenomenal player, but perhaps a bit overvalued based on current form. He's on pace for 48 TD passes, which would shatter his previous career high of 30 in a season. What are the odds of him sustaining this level of production?
I'd say his odds are on par or better than anyone else. :shrug:Like I said earlier, I own Cam in a dynasty and I'm happy, but if we redrafted tomorrow then Rodgers would top my QB list easily.
 
Rodgers is a phenomenal player, but perhaps a bit overvalued based on current form. He's on pace for 48 TD passes, which would shatter his previous career high of 30 in a season. What are the odds of him sustaining this level of production?
I'd say his odds are on par or better than anyone else. :shrug:Like I said earlier, I own Cam in a dynasty and I'm happy, but if we redrafted tomorrow then Rodgers would top my QB list easily.
You never know. I mean, you can't assume that every player who's just had a monster year is going to regress. If you did that, you'd miss out on some exceptional talents. I'm willing to believe that Rodgers is exceptional, but I don't know how likely it is for him to throw for 40+ TDs multiple times in his career. My hunch (which could be dead wrong) is that he'll slide back into the more human 30-36 range next season, meaning he'll still be a great FF option, but not necessarily head-and-shoulders above the crowd. This is what happened to Manning and Brady after they went bonkers. People often make the mistake of projecting dynasty value based on last year's numbers. It's great that Rodgers is having a historic year, but you won't get any credit for that next season when he has to do it all over again. I don't think the people who paid full sticker price for guys like Chris Johnson, LaDainian Tomlinson, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning after their respective monster seasons felt great about it when the dust settled and those players returned to their merely excellent (and not superhuman) levels of performance.
 
I'd argue, EBF, that both Rodgers' 3 TD / week passing and Newton's 1 TD / week rushing are totally unsustainable moving forward.

Is Newton really in a whole different universe as a runner than Vick, CPep, and company that he'll be able to, over a multi-year window, be able to destroy the all-time marks for running by a QB by maintaining a 10+ TD rushing pace while also improving on a pace equal to the best ever QBs passing? He could outscore Rodgers next year and beyond, but I think that it's far more likely that he doesn't, even if Rodgers comes back down to Earth and merely plays like a normal stud fantasy QB like he did in 2008-10. Historically, no QB has EVER been a consistent 10 TD threat on the ground. No one has ever been even close to that, including some damn good running QBs (Young, Culpepper) that played in all-time great offenses with WAY more scoring opportunities than Cam is likely to see anytime in the forseeable future playing in Carolina.

 
I'd argue, EBF, that both Rodgers' 3 TD / week passing and Newton's 1 TD / week rushing are totally unsustainable moving forward.Is Newton really in a whole different universe as a runner than Vick, CPep, and company that he'll be able to, over a multi-year window, be able to destroy the all-time marks for running by a QB by maintaining a 10+ TD rushing pace while also improving on a pace equal to the best ever QBs passing? He could outscore Rodgers next year and beyond, but I think that it's far more likely that he doesn't, even if Rodgers comes back down to Earth and merely plays like a normal stud fantasy QB like he did in 2008-10. Historically, no QB has EVER been a consistent 10 TD threat on the ground. No one has ever been even close to that, including some damn good running QBs (Young, Culpepper) that played in all-time great offenses with WAY more scoring opportunities than Cam is likely to see anytime in the forseeable future playing in Carolina.
No QB has ever been used the way Newton is being used, for extended periods of time, if at all. If Culpepper was, maybe he could have had a few more double digit TD seasons. As EBF said, and I agree with, nobody has come along and given their team so much reason to - no QB has been as equipped to be a successful goal line option. And yes. Newton is a lot better goalline running QB than Young, Vick, Culpepper, and anyone I have seen, aside from Tebow.
 
To me, the giant, glaring, flashing flaw with this argument is that it is predicated on Cam Newton HAVING to sustain his current rushing production and end each season with 12+ rushing touchdowns. This argument isn't based on the fact that he COULD sustain the pace and it would be a bonus if he did, it literally must happen for it to have merit. If it was a mere matter of Cam Newton only needing to maintain 5-8 rushing touchdowns per season to realistically consider him the best fantasy quarterback, let alone overall player, it would be a very realistic discussion. However, that wouldn't be the case- given any historical context and assigning incredibly optimistic passing assumptions for Newton over his career, 5-8 rushing touchdowns wouldn't make him better than Aaron Rodgers given the track record Rodgers has provided over his career, let alone some of the other very young and very productive players that would be options at 1.01.

Another myth that needs to be dispelled is that Cam Newton is the true goal line back of the Panthers. Over the first 5 games of the season, this is exactly how he functioned. A look at the game logs reveals the following Newton rushing touchdowns:

Game 1 = 1 touchdown (1 yard)

Game 2 = 1 touchdown (4 yards)

Game 3 = 0 touchdowns

Game 4 = 2 touchdowns (1 yard and 2 yards)

Game 5 = 1 touchdown (1 yard)

That gave Newton 5 touchdowns in 5 games, a rate of 1 touchdown per game and a per season pace of 16 touchdowns, with all of them coming from within the 4 yard line (and all but 1 being right at the goal line). One would have to assume that he was the goal line back during this 5 game stretch and watching the games confirms this assumption- nearly every time the Panthers got near the stripe, the play call was some form of a Cam Newton run (broken up only rarely by a Stewart run).

However, starting in game 6, the Panthers stopped using Cam as the only goal line back of choice. In the following 6 games, Newton's game log played out like this:

Game 6 = 1 touchdown (14 yards)

Game 7 = 1 touchdown (16 yards)

Game 8 = 0 touchdowns

Game 9 = 0 touchdowns

Game 10 = 2 touchdowns (11 yards and 6 yards)

Game 11 = 1 touchdown (14 yards)

That 6 game stretch left Newton with 5 touchdowns in 6 games, a rate of .83 touchdowns per game and a per season pace of 13, with none of them coming from within 6 yards. One would have to assume that he was not the goal line back during this 6 game stretch and watching the games somewhat confirms this, as Jonathan Stewart notched touchdown runs of 1 and 2 yards in 2 different games and DeAngelo Williams notched a touchdown of 2 yards in a 3rd game. While Cam was still involved at the goal line, he no longer was the sole ball carrier and watching the games actually confirms that he was the clear second running option behind whichever running back was in the game at the stripe.

While he still maintained a fantastic touchdown rate over this 6 game stretch, it did drop from his first 5 game rate, and it suddenly becomes a VERY risky proposition to have to begin relying on touchdowns of 14, 16, 11, and 14 yards to maintain the rushing pace necessary to reach the expectations many are setting for him. I find it very curious that many are already settling in on the fact that Cam Newton will be the goal line back for the panthers for the next 7-8 seasons (perhaps even more according to some) when the data shows he didn't even make it past 5 games of his FIRST SEASON as the feature goal line back. Something there doesn't quite add up for me.

That last point is exactly why I don't see the sense in Newton at 1.01 in a new dynasty league (or above several players for that matter). He is a fantastic player and I like him a lot, but there is far too much unknown and risk involved to possibly feel comfortable wit him or make it a smart move. Sure, he could continue to average 14.5 rushing touchdowns per season, which is his current pace. However, if we are going to speak in hyperbole about Cam Newton, then we must also do the same of Aaron Rodgers- it is possible that Rodgers could average 40+ touchdowns over the remainder of his career, as Rodgers is to precision passing and perfectly timed running what Cam Newton is to rushing (meaning while people are saying Cam Newton is revolutionizing the position and running like we have never seen a quarterback run before, the same must be said of Rodgers. We have never seen a quarterback play this smartly, be this accurate, have this much passing ability, be able to run when necessary, etc...). This still makes Rodgers the player to own, even when speaking in hyperbole.

The reality is that neither of these players will likely ever do what the hyperbole rants are suggesting. Rodgers isn't likely to average 40+ touchdowns per season and neither is Cam. The difference is that Rodgers is still quite young and has a track record that establishes himself as the highest scoring quarterback in the league and a player you can bank on. While the early returns for Cam do the same, it's still VERY early and his game logs trouble me. If the Panthers continue to operate with Cam as only a secondary option at the goal line instead of the primary option (as they HAVE been doing over the last 6 games), then suddenly Cam loses a TON of value. He simply isn't going to continue to consistently produce 10+ yard rushing touchdowns at the rate that would be necessary to maintain the value some are assigning (based on the assumption that he would be the goal line back). This suddenly places a huge emphasis on the need to improve his passing production to achieve that value. I think he is a great player and absolutely could reach the passing production necessary, but I also acknowledge there is a very real possibility he won't (he has looked both great and terrible in the passing game at points this season). When there are so many other very young, very proven, very talented players that are options at 1.01, why would you want to take the giant risk that either Cam Newton's passing production will increase substantially or the Panthers will revert back to using him as the primary option at the goal line? Additionally, why would you want to take that risk when even if everything goes right and it happens like you wanted, the likely result is the production level that Aaron Rodgers already provides with essentially no risk assigned at all?

 
You keep mentioning Culpepper, but I don't buy that comparison. When I think of Culpepper I think of a big, lumbering guy whose success came mainly from chucking bombs to an in-his-prime Randy Moss. I know Culpepper had some decent years on the ground, but I don't think he was cut from the same cloth as Cam, who strikes me as a vastly superior athlete.

I hear what you're saying about the ten rushing TDs. Maybe it's unrealistic to expect this kind of pace from Newton in the future. However, I think it's likely that his passing stats (particularly his TD numbers) will improve in future seasons. That would partially offset the loss of the rushing points.

This has been kind of a weird NFL season, with several QBs putting up better numbers than anyone did last year. Rodgers, Newton, Brees, and Brady are all averaging 26+ ppg in most of my leagues. Cam's production could drop a few ppg off his current pace and he would still be a strong contender for QB1 in any particular year (though the same can be said for any of the other three QBs).

So if you're going to argue that he can't sustain these numbers, I'd counter by saying that:

1.) Maybe he can.

2.) He doesn't have to.

He could drop a few ppg and still be an elite option.

 
The Newton = Culpepper comparison is pretty silly, as Daunte never moved nearly as well as Cam does.
Culpepper could easily escape most DEs. His 40 time was similar to Newton's, both about exactly 4.6. He was less svelte but he could move. Saying he couldn't move is revisionist.Unless you think Newton will start running Tebow-style read option this is meaningless though. Both have a Lorenzen-ian ability to score goalline TDs.
It's not tough to envision a scenario in which Cam outscores Rodgers next season.
You're not asking whether we can envision it. You're asking whether we should bet on it. From your standpoint, what are the chances Newton outscores Rodgers in 2 of the next 3 years, 3 of the next 4 years, 4 of the next 6 years, 5 of the next 8 years, 6 of the next 10 years?
 
To me, the giant, glaring, flashing flaw with this argument is that it is predicated on Cam Newton HAVING to sustain his current rushing production and end each season with 12+ rushing touchdowns. This argument isn't based on the fact that he COULD sustain the pace and it would be a bonus if he did, it literally must happen for it to have merit.
Not at all. Cam's passing numbers leave a lot of room for improvement. Hell, he could produce Matt Schaub numbers, and add only 6 points a game on the ground (about 1/2 of what he is doing now)and warrant this conversation.
 
Kordell Stewart? Come on, man.
Kordell Stewart's first year as a starter:Passing: 3,020 yards, 7.0ypa, 21td, 17intRushing: 476yds, 11tdIt's a lot more comparable than you would think. His completion percentage was down but everything else was good.Meanwhile, Culpepper's first year blew both Kordell AND Cam out of the water from a passing standpoint.It seems like with these guys (young QBs that can run) we're always saying "imagine if he improves xxxx just a little bit". Yet, it rarely works out. Even if they do improve xxxx, their rushing stats taper off and cancel it out, or they disappear for a couple of seasons at a time. It's been mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is having a career year. I'm not convinced that Cam isn't having the same from a rushing TDs standpoint.It seems like not that long ago we were having this same discussion with Culpepper vs Peyton. These erratic running QBs always tease us with impressions of long-term FF dominance and we never learn. Cam could just as easily finish QB12 next year like Kordell/Culpepper did after their hot starts. Take Rodgers and enjoy an "off" year being a year where he finishes as QB3.
 
Kordell Stewart? Come on, man.
Kordell Stewart's first year as a starter:Passing: 3,020 yards, 7.0ypa, 21td, 17intRushing: 476yds, 11tdIt's a lot more comparable than you would think. His completion percentage was down but everything else was good.Meanwhile, Culpepper's first year blew both Kordell AND Cam out of the water from a passing standpoint.It seems like with these guys (young QBs that can run) we're always saying "imagine if he improves xxxx just a little bit". Yet, it rarely works out. Even if they do improve xxxx, their rushing stats taper off and cancel it out, or they disappear for a couple of seasons at a time. It's been mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is having a career year. I'm not convinced that Cam isn't having the same from a rushing TDs standpoint.It seems like not that long ago we were having this same discussion with Culpepper vs Peyton. These erratic running QBs always tease us with impressions of long-term FF dominance and we never learn. Cam could just as easily finish QB12 next year like Kordell/Culpepper did after their hot starts. Take Rodgers and enjoy an "off" year being a year where he finishes as QB3.
So, when do I plan on Newton tearing 3 knee ligaments? Becuase, up to that point, Culpepper was better than manning, fantasy wise.
 
Is the Culpepper comparison supposed to be a reason for or against Newton being ranked high? I mean, Dante had 2 of the top 7-8 fantasy seasons by a QB...ever.

I'd be ok with that production from Cam.

 
While the early returns for Cam do the same, it's still VERY early and his game logs trouble me. If the Panthers continue to operate with Cam as only a secondary option at the goal line instead of the primary option (as they HAVE been doing over the last 6 games), then suddenly Cam loses a TON of value. He simply isn't going to continue to consistently produce 10+ yard rushing touchdowns at the rate that would be necessary to maintain the value some are assigning (based on the assumption that he would be the goal line back).
I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point here, but I think you need to account for the fact that exceptional players are going to do exceptional things. The reason Calvin Johnson has been getting so many receiving TDs compared to other #1 WRs is because he offers a rare skill set and combination of height/speed/strength/skill that's unmatched by any other pro wideout. Why can't Cam do the same thing at the QB position? Why can't he keep running for TDs? I've never seen a QB with a better combination of size, speed, and passing skills. Cam is exceptional, so I expect him to do exceptional things.
This suddenly places a huge emphasis on the need to improve his passing production to achieve that value. I think he is a great player and absolutely could reach the passing production necessary, but I also acknowledge there is a very real possibility he won't (he has looked both great and terrible in the passing game at points this season). When there are so many other very young, very proven, very talented players that are options at 1.01, why would you want to take the giant risk that either Cam Newton's passing production will increase substantially or the Panthers will revert back to using him as the primary option at the goal line? Additionally, why would you want to take that risk when even if everything goes right and it happens like you wanted, the likely result is the production level that Aaron Rodgers already provides with essentially no risk assigned at all?
First off, I don't see that many great options at 1.01. Some of the super elite players like Larry Fitzgerald, Chris Johnson, and Adrian Peterson are reaching a point in their careers when their age and mileage are beginning to affect their outlook and their trade value. Players like LeSean McCoy and Ray Rice are putting up great numbers, but if you ask me they're examples of "right player, right situation." I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't see either as a super elite Peterson/Tomlinson/Faulk type of back that you can build a perennial dynasty around. That leaves a pretty small group of names who offer the same kind of short-term/long-term value combination as Cam:Aaron RodgersCalvin JohnsonWho else? Maybe I'd chuck Trent Richardson, AJ Green, or Dez Bryant in there, but none of those guys are any more proven than Cam is. I've already said that I think Cam stands a good chance to improve as a passer. He ranks 19th in the NFL in passing TDs, behind such luminaries as Alex Smith, Andy Dalton, Colt McCoy, Mark Sanchez, and Ryan Fitzpatrick. I think his numbers will improve in this department and while some of that might come at the expense of his rushing, the overall upside is still very enticing when you consider what he might be capable of when he eventually has the kind of career year that Manning, Brady, and Rodgers eventually had with their respective skill sets. What is he capable of if everything clicks for him? 30 passing TDs and 15 rushing TDs? I think his ceiling is enormous.
 
Is the Culpepper comparison supposed to be a reason for or against Newton being ranked high? I mean, Dante had 2 of the top 7-8 fantasy seasons by a QB...ever. I'd be ok with that production from Cam.
:goodposting: Newton does too. 3 between the two of them.
That was prior to this season, and Cam isn't on pace to beat either of Dantes best two seasons. Plus, this season is crazy with QB scoring and he could be 4th best just from this year.
 
The best averages for Culppepper, McNair, and Kordell Stewart over any five year spread in their careers is at 400 - 450 and 5 - 5.5 on the ground. Vick averages 700 and 4 for his best five year period. Culpepper and Stewart both scored 10+ in a given year, Vick has had 9, and McNair 8 twice. The huge rushing TD totals have never been sustainable for ANY QB EVER. What is reasonable to expect from Cam moving forward, even if you're going to call him "the best running QB in NFL history," which I don't think is really merited after 11 games.

Rodgers averaged just under 300 and 4.3 from 2008 - 2010, BTW. So to keep pace, Cam is either absolutely shattering records as a runner, or immediately settling in around 28-30 TDs passing, starting next year.

 
Is the Culpepper comparison supposed to be a reason for or against Newton being ranked high? I mean, Dante had 2 of the top 7-8 fantasy seasons by a QB...ever. I'd be ok with that production from Cam.
:goodposting: Newton does too. 3 between the two of them.
That was prior to this season, and Cam isn't on pace to beat either of Dantes best two seasons. Plus, this season is crazy with QB scoring and he could be 4th best just from this year.
Cam is currently 2nd. And this year is crazy, due to the rule changes. But, VBD accounts for that.
 
The best averages for Culppepper, McNair, and Kordell Stewart over any five year spread in their careers is at 400 - 450 and 5 - 5.5 on the ground. Vick averages 700 and 4 for his best five year period. Culpepper and Stewart both scored 10+ in a given year, Vick has had 9, and McNair 8 twice. The huge rushing TD totals have never been sustainable for ANY QB EVER. What is reasonable to expect from Cam moving forward, even if you're going to call him "the best running QB in NFL history," which I don't think is really merited after 11 games.Rodgers averaged just under 300 and 4.3 from 2008 - 2010, BTW. So to keep pace, Cam is either absolutely shattering records as a runner, or immediately settling in around 28-30 TDs passing, starting next year.
They haven't been sustainable because nobody has been used like Cam. In my opinion, nobody has been as well equipped.Vick is much faster than Cam, but Cam is bigger, stronger, and can better handle goalline carries.
 
Those are the best running QBs ever, dude. And every one of them had short spurts of usage as the primary red zone runner for their team, leading their team in rushing TDs over the course of a season. Which is exactly what Newton has done - been the primary red zone weapon for an NFL team for 11 games. It has never lasted for those guys, who, in their primes, were every bit the runners that Newton is now, even if you didn't see them play. You're predicting that to last for Newton, which would be the first time that's ever been sustainable. Betting on ANYONE to blow NFL career records out of the water after 11 games is a big-time sucker bet, period.

 
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