Is he the biggest "What if"? (1 Viewer)

[Waggle]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

 

[Limp Ditka]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

The guy had a ten year career. Kind of hard to say what if about him.

 

[Knightro]

biggest what if to me is Brien Taylor. I saw him pitch prior to his bar-fight. He was unbelieveable. I saw him firing 96-98 from the left side and 77-79 breaking balls. You don't see that kind of velocity from left-handers that often - especially 19 year olds.

 

[Nigel]

Tony Conigliaro

 

[Limp Ditka]

Tony Conigliaro

 

[Smack Tripper]

Only a half season with Ryan, that would have been a fun combo to watch for a few more years, I'll say that.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Lyman Bostock

 

[Limp Ditka]

Lyman Bostock

I just looked this up because I didn't know the name

 

[BlueDemon]

David Clyde

 

[Reality Football]

Seems Mark Prior will soon be on this list.

 

[_4_]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

The guy had a ten year career. Kind of hard to say what if about him.

I seldom agree with the Limp one, but he stated exactly what I thought when I read the thread title.I think Lyman Bostock, Mark Prior and Kerry Wood are much better examples of What If?.

However, to me, the best example would be Mickey Mantle. Injuries plagued Mantle throughout his career. He played more games for the Yankees -- 2,401 -- than anyone else, and for much of that time he played in pain. As a rookie, in the second game of the 1951 World Series, he tore up his knee while chasing a fly ball when he caught a cleat on a lawn sprinkler in the outfield at Yankee Stadium. Despite his injuries and multiple knee operations (50's style - not arthroscopic), for several years he was the fastest man on the team. Not only was his speed affected, but he had to compensate at the plate as well - if Mantle plays 17 HEALTHY years, he most surely would have been the first (and only) white man since Babe Ruth (who probably was bi-racial) to hit over 600 Home Runs.

 

[Greco]

Mark Fidrych.

 

[BlueDemon]

to elaborate on David Clyde , 17 year old kid right out of High School, strikes out the side in his major league debut. That was really all you heard of him. Could have been a great pitcher if he was groomed properly.

 

[JoeSteeler]

Herb Score

First two years in the league:

1955 CLE AL 16-10 245 SO 2.85 era

1956 CLE AL 20-9 263 SO 2.53 era

Then...."On May 7, 1957, against the New York Yankees, Score was struck in the face by a line drive off the bat of Gil McDougald, breaking numerous bones in his face and leaving him quite bloodied. McDougald reportedly vowed to retire if Score was blinded as a result, but Score actually eventually recovered his 20/20 vision, though he missed the rest of the season. Score returned late in the 1958 season, but fearful of being hit by another batted ball, his pitching motion was altered, and he was never quite the same pitcher."-Wikipedia

EDIT-finished with a career record of 55-46 and a 3.36 ERA and 837 strikeouts over 8 seasons, in 858 1/3 innings pitched.

 

[ooofffaaa]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

I also remember watching him when I was a kid.

Man o man did that guy throw GAS. 101-102mph pretty consistantly.

 

[_4_]

to elaborate on David Clyde , 17 year old kid right out of High School, strikes out the side in his major league debut. That was really all you heard of him. Could have been a great pitcher if he was groomed properly.

There is no way to know if he "could have been great". He had a great arm for a HS kid. He had an above average arm for a MLB pitcher. A friend of mine who pitched in the Majors (threw a no-hitter) said that the arm everyone in the league wanted was Dan Pleasac's . It was pretty well known in MLB circles that Pleasac had incredible stuff, but limited desire to be the best - it was just accepted. He pitched for 18 years averaging under 100 innings a year with an ERA around 3.60 - I think THAT is what David Clyde could have been.

 

[_4_]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

I also remember watching him when I was a kid.

Man o man did that guy throw GAS. 101-102mph pretty consistantly.

Good Article for those who are too young to remember JRFor those of you who can't read - find this...

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Bo Jackson

 

[_4_]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

 

[Smack Tripper]

What about Gooden and Strawberry had they not devled into Blow and the NY nightlife? Hell, Gooden's two years younger than Clemens now!

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

But had Bo focused full-time on Baseball, I think he could have been a hall of famer. He was starting to mature and smarten up as a hitter, and I think he would have developed farther and faster without football. A great 4 tool player, who I think was on his way to learning to hit for average when the injury hit. His homer for the Chisox off Neal Heaton in his first at bat back was one of the few times I had goosebumps watching someone victimize the Yankees, I just felt so good for the guy.Definately a Hall of Fame Running Back trajectory too prior to the injury.

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

 

[Funkley]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

Fair point but I don't think we can project plate discipline. He didn't exactly command the strike zone even in his "prime" but he very well could have become a dominant home run hitter.

 

[JaxBill]

What about Joe Charbonneau? Rookie of the year to out of baseball in a couple years.

 

[Smack Tripper]

What about Joe Charbonneau? Rookie of the year to out of baseball in a couple years.

Bob Hamelin also was gone pretty quickly

 

[Colin Dowling]

I could care less if Bo was a .250 better before injury. He was a spectacle to watch play and with good health and proper focus, he could have been an all time great.

 

[Funkley]

I could care less if Bo was a .250 better before injury. He was a spectacle to watch play and with good health and proper focus, he could have been an all time great.

.250 hitters aren't all time greats.

 

[Funkley]

What about Joe Charbonneau? Rookie of the year to out of baseball in a couple years.

Bob Hamelin also was gone pretty quickly

Pat Listach

 

[Smack Tripper]

I could care less if Bo was a .250 better before injury. He was a spectacle to watch play and with good health and proper focus, he could have been an all time great.

The furthest home run I ever saw hit into the RIGHTFIELD bleachers was by Vincent Edward Jackson on his 3 home run night(when he dove for Deion's ball and got injured or he was DEFINATELY hitting 4 or more that night). It was to straight away right centerfield, about 5 rows from the back wall. Absolutely jacked.

 

[_4_]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

You're looking at him in the vaccum of what he was, which was as two sport superstar. Had he stayed healthy, he had a lot more time to spend on the highlight reel. That hip blew at age 27, just as he was entering his baseball prime. At least in my supposition, I was considering Bo dedicated strictly to baseball. That means he gets the benefit of winterball and offseason work at a younger age, plus less nagging wear and tear on his body(never mind the catastrophic hip injury). And if you are going to pick apart his fielding percentage, you should ask yourself, who got to more balls, Bo or Gorman? Who played centerfield on Turf, Bo or Gorman? While it doesn't speak to all of his defensive prowless, he made perhaps the greatest in game throw in the video era of baseball, throwing flatfooted to home from the Kingdome Warning track.

And I'm not sure why Von Hayes is brought up to trash him, but its not like Von was a slouch. But he never had the power impact that Bo did. And Von got hurt at the end anyway if I'm not mistaken.

 

[_4_]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

You're looking at him in the vaccum of what he was, which was as two sport superstar. Had he stayed healthy, he had a lot more time to spend on the highlight reel. That hip blew at age 27, just as he was entering his baseball prime. At least in my supposition, I was considering Bo dedicated strictly to baseball. That means he gets the benefit of winterball and offseason work at a younger age, plus less nagging wear and tear on his body(never mind the catastrophic hip injury). And if you are going to pick apart his fielding percentage, you should ask yourself, who got to more balls, Bo or Gorman? Who played centerfield on Turf, Bo or Gorman? While it doesn't speak to all of his defensive prowless, he made perhaps the greatest in game throw in the video era of baseball, throwing flatfooted to home from the Kingdome Warning track.

And I'm not sure why Von Hayes is brought up to trash him, but its not like Von was a slouch. But he never had the power impact that Bo did. And Von got hurt at the end anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Of course I am looking at him for who he was - a 2 sport player. To me, this is "What if?" he never got injured. Not "What if" he never got injured, had better defensive instincts, a better eye at the plate, better decisionmaking on the basepaths, and never played football. To answer your other questions, Bo had 1075 PO in 557 games in the field (he was a DH for 104 games) - Bo made 1.9 putouts per game (and made 44 errors). Gorman made 2905 PO in 1159 games and only 49 errors in twice as many games. Not only did Gorman get to almost another ball per game than Bo, he dropped them half as often.

Von Hayes is brought into the discussion because he was a decent but not great player whose career overlapped Bo's. I am not saying Bo was a bad player. I am saying he was a decent player who played long enough healthy to get an accurate picture of who he was on the diamond.

 

[Funkley]

I think the 'real' Bo is somewhere between the cases you both are making, good posts btw. A highlight reel player, borderline all star year to year but a very flawed player when you really start looking at things like 'winning' baseball stats (OBP, 2 out hitting, etc.)

 

[_4_]

I think the 'real' Bo is somewhere between the cases you both are making, good posts btw. A highlight reel player, borderline all star year to year but a very flawed player when you really start looking at things like 'winning' baseball stats (OBP, 2 out hitting, etc.)

I am up for a compromise on this.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

You're looking at him in the vaccum of what he was, which was as two sport superstar. Had he stayed healthy, he had a lot more time to spend on the highlight reel. That hip blew at age 27, just as he was entering his baseball prime. At least in my supposition, I was considering Bo dedicated strictly to baseball. That means he gets the benefit of winterball and offseason work at a younger age, plus less nagging wear and tear on his body(never mind the catastrophic hip injury). And if you are going to pick apart his fielding percentage, you should ask yourself, who got to more balls, Bo or Gorman? Who played centerfield on Turf, Bo or Gorman? While it doesn't speak to all of his defensive prowless, he made perhaps the greatest in game throw in the video era of baseball, throwing flatfooted to home from the Kingdome Warning track.

And I'm not sure why Von Hayes is brought up to trash him, but its not like Von was a slouch. But he never had the power impact that Bo did. And Von got hurt at the end anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Of course I am looking at him for who he was - a 2 sport player. To me, this is "What if?" he never got injured. Not "What if" he never got injured, had better defensive instincts, a better eye at the plate, better decisionmaking on the basepaths, and never played football. To answer your other questions, Bo had 1075 PO in 557 games in the field (he was a DH for 104 games) - Bo made 1.9 putouts per game (and made 44 errors). Gorman made 2905 PO in 1159 games and only 49 errors in twice as many games. Not only did Gorman get to almost another ball per game than Bo, he dropped them half as often.

Von Hayes is brought into the discussion because he was a decent but not great player whose career overlapped Bo's. I am not saying Bo was a bad player. I am saying he was a decent player who played long enough healthy to get an accurate picture of who he was on the diamond.

Fair enough, but we are playing this crazy game of what if, so we can all play it whichever way we prefer. You make fair points regarding Gorman's chances, but lets also be realistic here, Bo had 49 assists in 557, Gorman had 4 more in more than twice as many games. So if Bo is either not getting to balls or making E's, he's also aggresively impacting the game. That's also a BIG part of the defensive picture.Bo had his flaws, he could be pitched to, but he was also a big game player prior to his injury. National games, the All-Star game, he just rose to the occasion.

It is amazing though thinking about it, I guess I most directly compare Bo with a guy like Eric Davis. Very different body types and what not. Obviously more speed from ED, but more raw power from Bo, but what an era of baseball with these guys, Straw, Howard Johnson, Ronnie Gant going 30/30 when 30 homers meant something.

 

[Bobcat10]

What about Joe Charbonneau? Rookie of the year to out of baseball in a couple years.

Was gonna say Super Joe. But I'm sure there are more of these guys...Listach comes to mind and was mentioned here. I remember being PO'd when he won ALROY over Lofton. Very similar stats across the board, Lofton had more SBs, less CS, and less Ks by significant margins.

 

[_4_]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

You're looking at him in the vaccum of what he was, which was as two sport superstar. Had he stayed healthy, he had a lot more time to spend on the highlight reel. That hip blew at age 27, just as he was entering his baseball prime. At least in my supposition, I was considering Bo dedicated strictly to baseball. That means he gets the benefit of winterball and offseason work at a younger age, plus less nagging wear and tear on his body(never mind the catastrophic hip injury). And if you are going to pick apart his fielding percentage, you should ask yourself, who got to more balls, Bo or Gorman? Who played centerfield on Turf, Bo or Gorman? While it doesn't speak to all of his defensive prowless, he made perhaps the greatest in game throw in the video era of baseball, throwing flatfooted to home from the Kingdome Warning track.

And I'm not sure why Von Hayes is brought up to trash him, but its not like Von was a slouch. But he never had the power impact that Bo did. And Von got hurt at the end anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Of course I am looking at him for who he was - a 2 sport player. To me, this is "What if?" he never got injured. Not "What if" he never got injured, had better defensive instincts, a better eye at the plate, better decisionmaking on the basepaths, and never played football. To answer your other questions, Bo had 1075 PO in 557 games in the field (he was a DH for 104 games) - Bo made 1.9 putouts per game (and made 44 errors). Gorman made 2905 PO in 1159 games and only 49 errors in twice as many games. Not only did Gorman get to almost another ball per game than Bo, he dropped them half as often.

Von Hayes is brought into the discussion because he was a decent but not great player whose career overlapped Bo's. I am not saying Bo was a bad player. I am saying he was a decent player who played long enough healthy to get an accurate picture of who he was on the diamond.

Fair enough, but we are playing this crazy game of what if, so we can all play it whichever way we prefer. You make fair points regarding Gorman's chances, but lets also be realistic here, Bo had 49 assists in 557, Gorman had 4 more in more than twice as many games. So if Bo is either not getting to balls or making E's, he's also aggresively impacting the game. That's also a BIG part of the defensive picture.Bo had his flaws, he could be pitched to, but he was also a big game player prior to his injury. National games, the All-Star game, he just rose to the occasion.

It is amazing though thinking about it, I guess I most directly compare Bo with a guy like Eric Davis. Very different body types and what not. Obviously more speed from ED, but more raw power from Bo, but what an era of baseball with these guys, Straw, Howard Johnson, Ronnie Gant going 30/30 when 30 homers meant something.

I still say Mickey Mantle is the biggest "What if" ever. He had Bo's speed and power, but also was a career .298 hitter (18 seasons), mashing 536 HR, and fielding to the tune of .982. And anyone who knows anything about Mantle knows he was playing in pain at a fraction of his capabilities coming into the league in 1951 after tearing up his knee that season and suffering through "1951, right knee cartilage operation; 1952, right knee again; 1954, knee cyst removed; 1955, pulled groin muscle; 1956, left knee sprained; 1957, right shoulder injury; 1959, broken finger; 1961, hip abscess; 1962, left knee injury; 1963, broken metatarsal bone left foot; 1965, right shoulder surgery, right elbow and left knee injuries...Another of his companions was the gnarled hamstring, almost ever-present. He had that arrested case of osteomyelitis that set in early in his career but kept breaking jail." Also for more than the last 10 years Mickey played with elastic bandages wrapped around his right leg from mid-calf to upper thigh, and in the last few years he wrapped his left leg in the same way for support.

Gaynor (the Yankee trainer) was asked whether Mickey was "brittle."

"No. It was just the demands he made on himself. He wanted to play every day and he'd minimize things to get to play." I think Bo suffered from some of the same maladies - going out and playing as hard as he could every day on every play - the body doesn't have a chance to properly recover.

.....and what if.....he didn't drink.

Mickey Mantle was smaller by an inch and several pounds than Ian Kinsler - what coulda been. Obviously a HOF career, but it could have been so much greater

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bo Jackson

mehBo could have been the greatest RB of all time, but he was a marginal hitter with great power and speed. He hit .250 before his injury. That was what he was.

So you are saying that an athlete like Bo wouldn't have improved as he gained more baseball experience. I highly doubt that would have been the case.

To answer several of you:1. No, generally speaking .250 hitters are not all time greats.

2. Bo played until he was 30 - when was this supposed plate discipline going to take shape? He batted .207, .235, .246, .256, .272, .225, .232, and in his last 75 games at age 30, .279. Over his career he averaged a HR every 17 at bats - decent, but really no better than Gorman Thomas (another all time great?). Granted, his home runs were majestic, but an all time great that doesn't make.

3. He was a marginal fielder. You can't debate this. His fielding percentage was .965. That all time great Gorman Thomas was a .985 fielder. Nuff said. I don't care how strong his arm was, too many balls hit the ground that shouldn't have.

4. Not only could he not hit for average, his OBP was .309 - 40 points lower than all time great Von Hayes (a career .267 hitter), he couldn't take a walk to save his life.

5. Speaking of the speedster Hayes, Bo's success rate at stealing bases was about the same as the very white white man. Additionally, Hayes stole about 25 more bases between '86 and '91. Von was a decent player with good speed, but he was no Bo Jackson.

I could go on and on - baseball is great because the stats don't lie - Bo was a fair baseball player (a great Football player - stats DON'T tell the whole story in football) with Nike sponsoring an ENORMOUS ad campaign that worked.

You're looking at him in the vaccum of what he was, which was as two sport superstar. Had he stayed healthy, he had a lot more time to spend on the highlight reel. That hip blew at age 27, just as he was entering his baseball prime. At least in my supposition, I was considering Bo dedicated strictly to baseball. That means he gets the benefit of winterball and offseason work at a younger age, plus less nagging wear and tear on his body(never mind the catastrophic hip injury). And if you are going to pick apart his fielding percentage, you should ask yourself, who got to more balls, Bo or Gorman? Who played centerfield on Turf, Bo or Gorman? While it doesn't speak to all of his defensive prowless, he made perhaps the greatest in game throw in the video era of baseball, throwing flatfooted to home from the Kingdome Warning track.

And I'm not sure why Von Hayes is brought up to trash him, but its not like Von was a slouch. But he never had the power impact that Bo did. And Von got hurt at the end anyway if I'm not mistaken.

Of course I am looking at him for who he was - a 2 sport player. To me, this is "What if?" he never got injured. Not "What if" he never got injured, had better defensive instincts, a better eye at the plate, better decisionmaking on the basepaths, and never played football. To answer your other questions, Bo had 1075 PO in 557 games in the field (he was a DH for 104 games) - Bo made 1.9 putouts per game (and made 44 errors). Gorman made 2905 PO in 1159 games and only 49 errors in twice as many games. Not only did Gorman get to almost another ball per game than Bo, he dropped them half as often.

Von Hayes is brought into the discussion because he was a decent but not great player whose career overlapped Bo's. I am not saying Bo was a bad player. I am saying he was a decent player who played long enough healthy to get an accurate picture of who he was on the diamond.

Fair enough, but we are playing this crazy game of what if, so we can all play it whichever way we prefer. You make fair points regarding Gorman's chances, but lets also be realistic here, Bo had 49 assists in 557, Gorman had 4 more in more than twice as many games. So if Bo is either not getting to balls or making E's, he's also aggresively impacting the game. That's also a BIG part of the defensive picture.Bo had his flaws, he could be pitched to, but he was also a big game player prior to his injury. National games, the All-Star game, he just rose to the occasion.

It is amazing though thinking about it, I guess I most directly compare Bo with a guy like Eric Davis. Very different body types and what not. Obviously more speed from ED, but more raw power from Bo, but what an era of baseball with these guys, Straw, Howard Johnson, Ronnie Gant going 30/30 when 30 homers meant something.

I still say Mickey Mantle is the biggest "What if" ever. He had Bo's speed and power, but also was a career .298 hitter (18 seasons), mashing 536 HR, and fielding to the tune of .982. And anyone who knows anything about Mantle knows he was playing in pain at a fraction of his capabilities coming into the league in 1951 after tearing up his knee that season and suffering through "1951, right knee cartilage operation; 1952, right knee again; 1954, knee cyst removed; 1955, pulled groin muscle; 1956, left knee sprained; 1957, right shoulder injury; 1959, broken finger; 1961, hip abscess; 1962, left knee injury; 1963, broken metatarsal bone left foot; 1965, right shoulder surgery, right elbow and left knee injuries...Another of his companions was the gnarled hamstring, almost ever-present. He had that arrested case of osteomyelitis that set in early in his career but kept breaking jail." Also for more than the last 10 years Mickey played with elastic bandages wrapped around his right leg from mid-calf to upper thigh, and in the last few years he wrapped his left leg in the same way for support.

Gaynor (the Yankee trainer) was asked whether Mickey was "brittle."

"No. It was just the demands he made on himself. He wanted to play every day and he'd minimize things to get to play." I think Bo suffered from some of the same maladies - going out and playing as hard as he could every day on every play - the body doesn't have a chance to properly recover.

.....and what if.....he didn't drink.

Mickey Mantle was smaller by an inch and several pounds than Ian Kinsler - what coulda been. Obviously a HOF career, but it could have been so much greater

It's definately worth questioning, but having never seen Mantle play, its hard to really put myself there. But considering the right side was his dominant side, my what if about Mantle, even aside from the injuries, is what if he played in a cozier ball park. It's nothing I came up with on my own, but to hear people who watched him talk, they figure he might have hit 1000 homers if he played in Detroit. And imagine just flipping Dimaggio and Williams into Fenway and Yankee Stadium respectively, where the confines better suited their swing. Their personalities and backgrounds were so right for where they played though, but that's an interesting what if as well.

 

[Waggle]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pl....php?p=richaj01

I remember when I was a kid, how dominant he was. Then he had a stroke, and if I remember correctly, the Astros were actually thinking, prior to his stroke, his problems were related to drug use and questioning if his health problems were legitimate.

I also remember watching him when I was a kid.

Man o man did that guy throw GAS. 101-102mph pretty consistantly.

Good Article for those who are too young to remember JRFor those of you who can't read - find this...

The article is a great read on what he did and is doing now. He seems to have gotten his life in order.I was suprised that he had only started 1 all-star game. I think he would have set the strikeout record, and would have gotten a no-hitter or two. The Astros teams he played on weren't real competitive, so his pitching wins would have been higher with a better team around him.

I referened JR Richard because I remember how dominant he was right up until the stroke and the fact that the Astros management didn't necessarily believe him. I think he was showing what he could have done, without the speculation of potential, and his career being cut short.

 

[upperlevel]

What about Gooden and Strawberry had they not devled into Blow and the NY nightlife? Hell, Gooden's two years younger than Clemens now!

I was wondering if someone would mention them! Darryl is the reason I'm a Mets fan! I would have died if I got to hear Chocolate Strawberry at Shea

 

[_4_]

And imagine just flipping Dimaggio and Williams into Fenway and Yankee Stadium respectively, where the confines better suited their swing. Their personalities and backgrounds were so right for where they played though, but that's an interesting what if as well.

This is a question that is often posed...it boggles the mind to think about...DiMaggio was built for Fenway and Williams for The Stadium....it would be incredible to run say a 20 season sim and see what the stats would bear out...

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I would go with the 1980 Oakland A's starting rotation.

 

[_4_]

I would go with the 1980 Oakland A's starting rotation.

Billy Martin wore them out faster than you could say Mark Prior and Kerry Wood.

 

[Waggle]

I would go with the 1980 Oakland A's starting rotation.

Two things I noticed about the primary starting 5 was how many complete games they each had and that they were all right handed. They each all pitched more than 200 innings as well, that's why they were spent.