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Is Tebow being given a Fair shot? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hairy Snowman
- Start date
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Teams are discriminating against Tebow's distracting throng of fans that follow him everywhere and demand he start, causing a huge media circus, not his religion.
Teams might also be discriminating against him because he falls into a group of players that have always been discriminated against. These guys can never keep jobs in the NFL. The group? Players who suck at playing QB in the NFL. Downright unfair, if you ask me.
Teams might also be discriminating against him because he falls into a group of players that have always been discriminated against. These guys can never keep jobs in the NFL. The group? Players who suck at playing QB in the NFL. Downright unfair, if you ask me.
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Yes it does when they were losing before you were starting and nothing changed besides the QB position.
You aren't getting the point, Collins fans are just as distracting now, he is a hero to many people, and becoming as popular as tebow himself, but that won't be used against him because its over him being gay, not religious.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
No, I'm not missing the point. Collins is an aging veteran who has already had a solid career. No matter how many new fans or supporters he gains from coming out of the closet, he'll never be much of a distraction. His fans won't buy billboards demanding he start, his fans won't cause an uproar if he's not given a chance to start. The media will ask his new teammates how they feel about him being openly gay, and that's it. It'll be over, in terms of media distraction.
It's completely different. And the fact that you don't see that is making you look like an over zealous fool.
Plus, again, Tebow is not a good, or even average, QB.
It's completely different. And the fact that you don't see that is making you look like an over zealous fool.
Plus, again, Tebow is not a good, or even average, QB.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Did Collins earn a spot on a roster because hes gay? Oh he didn't? It must have been some other tangible metric.Also, thanks for proving everyones respective points.Flawless logic; Orton starts, broncos lose. Tebow starts, broncos win. "He just wins". Lets ignore how bad he actually is, and how good his defense and ST were, because "he just wins"
Collins is an old has been who if he does gets signed to a team its only because he is gay(his media distraction might actually work to his advantage here, complete opposite of tebow), and that team wanted to look "good". its looking good being extra nice to homosexuals, and if you're religious the hell with you. Collins won't be a distraction ? Say that to the guy that cares just about winning a championship, not about his team being PC and taking on an inferior has been player just so the teams management looks good to the media. Not to mention after every game it will be about collins, not about how so and so did, or why the team won or lost. "please, tell us how brave you think collins is for doing this and how much you respect him for it" questions like that would be asked a million times to his teammates, and yes that is a distraction, they just want to focus on the game of basketball to win a championship. Say that to any guy on the team that has to change / shower infront of him. Oh, but we can't talk about that right? You'll label whoever is uncomfortable with that a homophobe. Yet if a straight guy demanded to be able to take showers / change infront of females he would be called a pervert. As for tebow not being a good QB I guess I'll just have to take your word for it since all I ever saw him do was win, but yet he isn't good and doesn't deserve another shot in the NFL.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
The guy you're insisting must still be a FA because he's being discriminated against throws the football like its a ####### javelin. He spins the ball properly maybe 50% of the time.
http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tebow-pick-.gif
http://www.pigskinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tebow-spins.gif
http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/TebowOverthrow.gif
http://www.juanelway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Tebow-INT-GIf.gif
http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/tebow-pick-.gif
http://www.pigskinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tebow-spins.gif
http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/TebowOverthrow.gif
http://www.juanelway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Tebow-INT-GIf.gif
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you gave up on your "collins will never be much of a distraction" point. I don't blame you, since you're in the wrong.
"His throwing motion is now a non-issue. He throws with what we call ‘effortless power. He doesn’t have that elongated motion anymore and his head isn’t moving 2 1/2 feet when he throws it.” -Testaverde
to counter your useless gif reply
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I gave up on that aspect of the conversation because I'm sick of debating with a Tebow lunatic whose entire world view is unbelievably tilted, about an almost entirely unrelated topic in a completely different sport.So I'm going with the much more simple "Tebow sucks" argument. Because it barely even needs to be argued.
All he does is win....if his WR's bail him out on horrible throws and his defense keeps the opposing offense under 17-20 points every game.
Sounds like a winning formula!
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jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I respect your passion and I kinda see what you are trying to say. However--the fatal flaw in your point of view in my opinion is that you are completely not seeing the difference between making an "assessment" versus "discrimination". If Collins or Tebow made it on a team--it is going to be because the brain trust of those respective teams weighed the entire dynamics of both players and decided that the reward outweighed the risk. For some reason you are trying to separate the situations saying that they will somehow be handled and treated differently-- when in reality the process for handling any player decisions for any team is the same-- a full assessment is made--and a decision is made based on the risk/reward analysis of that particular situation. What is it that you aren't understanding here? The fact that a lot of teams can't justify signing Tebow based on these analytics doesn't mean that they are "discriminating" against him.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Exactly. Just a laughing smiley.
Make an argument as to why Tebow is the reason the Broncos won anything, when he barely completes 50% of his passes on a low amount of attempts.
He made miraculous, draw-a-play-in-the-dirt type of game-winning plays a few times on a team whose defense stepped up considerably and single-handedly kept the team in games despite their starting QB being unable to actually play QB for 80% of the game.
That is not a sustainable way to win. And the NFL knows that.
Make an argument as to why Tebow is the reason the Broncos won anything, when he barely completes 50% of his passes on a low amount of attempts.
He made miraculous, draw-a-play-in-the-dirt type of game-winning plays a few times on a team whose defense stepped up considerably and single-handedly kept the team in games despite their starting QB being unable to actually play QB for 80% of the game.
That is not a sustainable way to win. And the NFL knows that.
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I kind of see your point, and I respect you, but you're wrong. When the people that are making an assessment are biased the outcome is discriminatory towards whatever it was biased against. Theres a big problem that teams will find more positive rewards for taking in a gay player vs religious player --because the media is for gay players but against genuine religious players--, and it shouldn't factor into their assessment. What is it that you aren't understanding here? Also, I didn't address this before but "large distraction for a player who could end up being a decent backup qb at best" Not only do I disagree with that opinion -- i think he can be a starter-- but, lets say you are right, it can be argued the 2nd most important position on a NFL roster is the backup QB.
I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
As for making an argument for Tebow how about thisTim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
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jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
There are plenty of religioius players in the league--the league is not discriminating against religion. The execs in the league are aware of the media circus that comes with Tebow (part of which is caused by his religious beliefs, part of which was caused by his playing style, and some of which was caused by his college legacy..etc) and have to ask themselves if they feel like he is worth it for them to have as an entire package (not only his physical self, but the media circus that comes with him). Jason collins is a free agent---at this point he is also unsigned--and make no mistake--any team that does sign him is going to assess his entire package accordingly. If on the field performances are the only thing that should be assesed--then why is Terrell owens out of a job? Are you going to tell me the league discriminates against flashy african american players who have multiple children? How about Vince Young--he has a winning record and has a solid college legacy. You are defining Tebow only by his religion--which is the least thing that NFL teams are worried about in regards to him. They are worried about the potential distraction that comes with the media circus that follows him--along with the fact that he doesn't have a very good or accurate throwing motion. You are seeing things through tunnel vision with a lens that only wants to see religion.I kind of see your point, and I respect you, but you're wrong. When the people that are making an assessment are biased the outcome is discriminatory towards whatever it was biased against. Theres a big problem that teams will find more positive rewards for taking in a gay player vs religious player --because the media is for gay players but against genuine religious players--, and it shouldn't factor into their assessment. What is it that you aren't understanding here? Also, I didn't address this before but "large distraction for a player who could end up being a decent backup qb at best" Not only do I disagree with that opinion -- i think he can be a starter-- but, lets say you are right, it can be argued the 2nd most important position on a NFL roster is the backup QB.
I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
[SIZE=9pt]Whoa, did you feel that gust of wind? It’s from the giant leap you took. I said being gay or religious shouldn’t factor into their decision, but somehow that equates to on the field performance only? “if on the field performances are the only thing that should be ‘assesed’”[/SIZE]There are plenty of religioius players in the league--the league is not discriminating against religion. The execs in the league are aware of the media circus that comes with Tebow (part of which is caused by his religious beliefs, part of which was caused by his playing style, and some of which was caused by his college legacy..etc) and have to ask themselves if they feel like he is worth it for them to have as an entire package (not only his physical self, but the media circus that comes with him). Jason collins is a free agent---at this point he is also unsigned--and make no mistake--any team that does sign him is going to assess his entire package accordingly. If on the field performances are the only thing that should be assesed--then why is Terrell owens out of a job? Are you going to tell me the league discriminates against flashy african american players who have multiple children? How about Vince Young--he has a winning record and has a solid college legacy. You are defining Tebow only by his religion--which is the least thing that NFL teams are worried about in regards to him. They are worried about the potential distraction that comes with the media circus that follows him--along with the fact that he doesn't have a very good or accurate throwing motion. You are seeing things through tunnel vision with a lens that only wants to see religion.I kind of see your point, and I respect you, but you're wrong. When the people that are making an assessment are biased the outcome is discriminatory towards whatever it was biased against. Theres a big problem that teams will find more positive rewards for taking in a gay player vs religious player --because the media is for gay players but against genuine religious players--, and it shouldn't factor into their assessment. What is it that you aren't understanding here? Also, I didn't address this before but "large distraction for a player who could end up being a decent backup qb at best" Not only do I disagree with that opinion -- i think he can be a starter-- but, lets say you are right, it can be argued the 2nd most important position on a NFL roster is the backup QB.
I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Clearly, if a player has a drug problem –where it can affect his performance, or get them suspended—or a law problem—can’t play if arrested—that is different than whether or not someone is religious or gay—never heard of a football player unable to play because they got arrested or suspended over being gay or religious--.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Are you really comparing Tebow --young player with lots of room to grow-- to TO –a 39 year old physically declining player--?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Are you really comparing Tebow –one season as a starter-- to Vince young –multiple season starter with more ints than TDs – who is known for being lazy--?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]As for me seeing things through tunnel vision I’d suggest you’d look into the mirror and stop projecting.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Plenty of religious people in the NFL, but few of them are sincere the way Tebow is. When these religious people act hypocritical of their faith –tebow doesn’t—it confirms their belief in not being religious and it makes them feel good, tebow makes them feel bad, since he isn’t hypocritical at all –it makes them question themselves and who likes to do that--.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Interesting take on my point
[/SIZE]
--I expect you to listen to five seconds and claim to have listened to the whole thing and that you disagree with it--
NFL fans, like you, didn't get validated by him sitting on the sideline. It's not like Jets fans (or even the organization on draft day) were pleased with Sanchez.
The guy deserves a shot to play. I, for one, would consider myself cheated if I don't get to see him start soon. As a fan, there's like an unwritten rule that if a player does awesome in college, he gets a chance. If he wins with that chance, he gets another. That's all I'm expectant of.
Tebow had every intangible, no one questioned that-that i can recall. There were a million articles about him before the draft, nitpicking everything and "the makeup" was about perfect. His worst critics ripped apart his game.
There has never been such a polarizing figure as Tebow. I've never seen it and many said the same not too long ago. That brings about a unique amount of intrigue with this guy that makes him different than other QBs.
Being a QB does make you a leader. It might not make you a good one, but it is definitely "one who leads." We are talking about the NFL, not some 7th grader going from CB to QB on a local team. They are all well-experienced leaders; a large percentage of them have had extremely high success leading a team in college as well.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Just another small observation.........
If you had a clone of Tebow and he had some different name like John Smith or something, he would probably be a 7th round, or even undrafted rookie, and likely never get on an NFL field.
It's super funny that people think Tebow wasn't given a fair shot, when the only reason he got ANY shot in the first place is because of the hype cloud surrounding who he is, and not his actual game.
From the perspective of other players in the game, Tebow was unfairly given an opportunity at all. And while his record as a starter does reflect some team success, his play on the field didn't really show that he has much personal success outside of the last few minutes of some games.
All that said, I want to see him get a starting job somewhere. Like I said before, it is must-see-TV.
If you had a clone of Tebow and he had some different name like John Smith or something, he would probably be a 7th round, or even undrafted rookie, and likely never get on an NFL field.
It's super funny that people think Tebow wasn't given a fair shot, when the only reason he got ANY shot in the first place is because of the hype cloud surrounding who he is, and not his actual game.
From the perspective of other players in the game, Tebow was unfairly given an opportunity at all. And while his record as a starter does reflect some team success, his play on the field didn't really show that he has much personal success outside of the last few minutes of some games.
All that said, I want to see him get a starting job somewhere. Like I said before, it is must-see-TV.
OMG, you didn't really just throw out the "No true Scotsman" fallacy, did you?ducktales said:[SIZE=9pt]Whoa, did you feel that gust of wind? It’s from the giant leap you took. I said being gay or religious shouldn’t factor into their decision, but somehow that equates to on the field performance only? “if on the field performances are the only thing that should be ‘assesed’”[/SIZE]jvdesigns2002 said:There are plenty of religioius players in the league--the league is not discriminating against religion. The execs in the league are aware of the media circus that comes with Tebow (part of which is caused by his religious beliefs, part of which was caused by his playing style, and some of which was caused by his college legacy..etc) and have to ask themselves if they feel like he is worth it for them to have as an entire package (not only his physical self, but the media circus that comes with him). Jason collins is a free agent---at this point he is also unsigned--and make no mistake--any team that does sign him is going to assess his entire package accordingly. If on the field performances are the only thing that should be assesed--then why is Terrell owens out of a job? Are you going to tell me the league discriminates against flashy african american players who have multiple children? How about Vince Young--he has a winning record and has a solid college legacy. You are defining Tebow only by his religion--which is the least thing that NFL teams are worried about in regards to him. They are worried about the potential distraction that comes with the media circus that follows him--along with the fact that he doesn't have a very good or accurate throwing motion. You are seeing things through tunnel vision with a lens that only wants to see religion.ducktales said:I kind of see your point, and I respect you, but you're wrong. When the people that are making an assessment are biased the outcome is discriminatory towards whatever it was biased against. Theres a big problem that teams will find more positive rewards for taking in a gay player vs religious player --because the media is for gay players but against genuine religious players--, and it shouldn't factor into their assessment. What is it that you aren't understanding here? Also, I didn't address this before but "large distraction for a player who could end up being a decent backup qb at best" Not only do I disagree with that opinion -- i think he can be a starter-- but, lets say you are right, it can be argued the 2nd most important position on a NFL roster is the backup QB.jvdesigns2002 said:
I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."ConnSKINS26 said:
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Clearly, if a player has a drug problem –where it can affect his performance, or get them suspended—or a law problem—can’t play if arrested—that is different than whether or not someone is religious or gay—never heard of a football player unable to play because they got arrested or suspended over being gay or religious--.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Are you really comparing Tebow --young player with lots of room to grow-- to TO –a 39 year old physically declining player--?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Are you really comparing Tebow –one season as a starter-- to Vince young –multiple season starter with more ints than TDs – who is known for being lazy--?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]As for me seeing things through tunnel vision I’d suggest you’d look into the mirror and stop projecting.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Plenty of religious people in the NFL, but few of them are sincere the way Tebow is. When these religious people act hypocritical of their faith –tebow doesn’t—it confirms their belief in not being religious and it makes them feel good, tebow makes them feel bad, since he isn’t hypocritical at all –it makes them question themselves and who likes to do that--.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Interesting take on my point
[/SIZE]
hxperson
Footballguy
I'm sure this has been said before, but I think the reason Tebow doesn't have a job right now is pretty simple.
No NFL coaching staff right now wants to build their offense around Tebow. Can he win them games? Sure. But I don't think anyone believes such an offense will win a Super Bowl. It is too one dimensional, imo, mostly because Tebow is not a good downfield passer. Also, Tebow's style of play is very physical so if he gets hurt, who are you going to plug in as his back up?
On the other hand, the fervent passion of his fans/supporters, as well as the media circus around him, makes it a lose-lose proposition to bring him in as a backup. If Tebow performs well as a backup, winning some games while the starter is sidelined, there will be substantial backlash from his fan base (and possibly their own) and negative PR in general, if you bench him for your starter in the future. However, if you give in to the pressure and decide to make Tebow your starter, then your offense isn't optimized for him and you have to make some sizeable changes to the playbook and personell. As a coaching staff I'd want to be happy that my backup QB is doing well and that my team is playing better without its starting QB. I do not want to think about being immediately thrust into a QB controversy if the backup wins a game or two.
So I think most staffs are evaluating the situation and realizing that Tim Tebow, while probably better than the Matt Cassells or Matt Moores out there, isn't better enough to justify the headache that would ensue with actually playing him. If Matt Moore comes in relief of an injured Ryan Tannehill and wins at a higher percentage than Tannehill, nobody would say a word if Philbin pulled him for Tannehill when healthy. If Tebow were pulled for anyone other than a top 10 QB, there is a good chance we will hear rumblings, if not shouts, about how the coaching staff is discriminating against his religion or lacks moral fiber.
No NFL coaching staff right now wants to build their offense around Tebow. Can he win them games? Sure. But I don't think anyone believes such an offense will win a Super Bowl. It is too one dimensional, imo, mostly because Tebow is not a good downfield passer. Also, Tebow's style of play is very physical so if he gets hurt, who are you going to plug in as his back up?
On the other hand, the fervent passion of his fans/supporters, as well as the media circus around him, makes it a lose-lose proposition to bring him in as a backup. If Tebow performs well as a backup, winning some games while the starter is sidelined, there will be substantial backlash from his fan base (and possibly their own) and negative PR in general, if you bench him for your starter in the future. However, if you give in to the pressure and decide to make Tebow your starter, then your offense isn't optimized for him and you have to make some sizeable changes to the playbook and personell. As a coaching staff I'd want to be happy that my backup QB is doing well and that my team is playing better without its starting QB. I do not want to think about being immediately thrust into a QB controversy if the backup wins a game or two.
So I think most staffs are evaluating the situation and realizing that Tim Tebow, while probably better than the Matt Cassells or Matt Moores out there, isn't better enough to justify the headache that would ensue with actually playing him. If Matt Moore comes in relief of an injured Ryan Tannehill and wins at a higher percentage than Tannehill, nobody would say a word if Philbin pulled him for Tannehill when healthy. If Tebow were pulled for anyone other than a top 10 QB, there is a good chance we will hear rumblings, if not shouts, about how the coaching staff is discriminating against his religion or lacks moral fiber.
Witz
Footballguy
Witz said:Which part isn’t true? That Tebow gets discriminated against?You re-wording it doesn't make it any truer.I didn't think id have to explain the point of mentioning the IRS thing, but I don't discriminate against special needs, so here we go.
People here find it hard to believe anything not black or gay gets discriminated against, and usually conservatives go hand in hand with religion. See how what the IRS did to conservatives correlates with what im saying regarding Tebow? You get it yet little guy?
Jake Plummer “I think that when he accepts the fact that we know that he loves Jesus Christ, then I think I’ll like him a little better.”
Could you imagine if Kobe Bryant said “I think that when he accepts the fact that we know he loves guys, then I think I’ll like him a little better,” to Jason Collins?
He would get murdered by the media because it isn’t okay to discriminate against gays (which I agree with) but I don’t agree with the fact it’s okay to discriminate against religious folks.
Same with Tulloch if instead of mocking Tebow for praying/being religious
Based on your lack of response, I'm going to go with the fact that you have no proof but rather were just making an unfounded accusation to go with narrative you were trying to spin.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Did I miss where Jason Collins' signed with an NBA team?ducktales said:
Witz
Footballguy
ducktales said:
One could look at the 4th quarter stats you posted and come away impressed, but there's one problem with that - there are 4 quarters of football (link as well to the stats you posted above to see what period of time is being referenced).ducktales said:I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
Here's the thing - the clutch gene is not one of the most important qualities of a QB. It's the ability to throw the football.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct
Going back 11 years (2002 through 2012), this lists the QB who started the majority of the games for each of the 32 teams (for a total of 352 specific points of comparison). During those 11 years, there have only been 4 QB's who had a completion percentage lower than 50%:
2004 - Mark Brunell (Jax) - 49.8%
2005 - JP Losman (Buffalo) - 49.6%
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 48.8%
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 46.5%
In 11 years, Tebow was the worst starting QB from a pass completion percentage.
Also from that same time period, in looking at the Average Passing Yards per Game, here is where Tebow stacks up:
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 124 yards/game
2010 - Jimmy Claussen (Carolina) - 120 yards/game
2003 - Kyle Boller (Baltimore) - 115 yards/game
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 107 yards/game
In 11 years, Tebow as the 4th worst passer in the league from a passing yards per game perspective.
Also from that same time period, while on the low end, Tebow wasn't the QB with the lowest QB rating (in 2011 in Denver, his rating was 72.9%). There were other QB's with ratings below the 72.9, but in looking at those individuals historically, a vast majority of them were not starting the prior year (or even in the league).
From a statistical perspective, Tebow is not a very good QB no matter how hard someone may try to paint the picture otherwise. Was he part of a winning team back in 2011? Sure thing - but a win is something accomplished by an entire team - these are stats that are his alone.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
And that's the other problem with Tebow. He's had 6 4th quarter come from behind wins, but he's only won 8 games in his career. Who want a QB that has to come from behind to win every game?ducktales said:One could look at the 4th quarter stats you posted and come away impressed, but there's one problem with that - there are 4 quarters of football (link as well to the stats you posted above to see what period of time is being referenced).ducktales said:>I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
Here's the thing - the clutch gene is not one of the most important qualities of a QB. It's the ability to throw the football.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct
Going back 11 years (2002 through 2012), this lists the QB who started the majority of the games for each of the 32 teams (for a total of 352 specific points of comparison). During those 11 years, there have only been 4 QB's who had a completion percentage lower than 50%:
2004 - Mark Brunell (Jax) - 49.8%
2005 - JP Losman (Buffalo) - 49.6%
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 48.8%
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 46.5%
In 11 years, Tebow was the worst starting QB from a pass completion percentage.
Also from that same time period, in looking at the Average Passing Yards per Game, here is where Tebow stacks up:
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 124 yards/game
2010 - Jimmy Claussen (Carolina) - 120 yards/game
2003 - Kyle Boller (Baltimore) - 115 yards/game
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 107 yards/game
In 11 years, Tebow as the 4th worst passer in the league from a passing yards per game perspective.
Also from that same time period, while on the low end, Tebow wasn't the QB with the lowest QB rating (in 2011 in Denver, his rating was 72.9%). There were other QB's with ratings below the 72.9, but in looking at those individuals historically, a vast majority of them were not starting the prior year (or even in the league).
From a statistical perspective, Tebow is not a very good QB no matter how hard someone may try to paint the picture otherwise. Was he part of a winning team back in 2011? Sure thing - but a win is something accomplished by an entire team - these are stats that are his alone.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Again, Coaches HATE being told who to play.
Look at Flutie with the Bills and Rob Johnson. Wade Phillips will never, ever live that down.
There have been lots of examples, Tebow is not the only one to have this happen to him and yes the coaches/GM's in several cities (but not all) are just plain too lazy or foolish or inferior to give Tebow a shot at a backup role.
If the man really, really wants it he needs to go to the CFL and do what Flutie (similar issues with fan popularity and style/physical mechanics) and Warren Moon (similar issues with (let's say) style of play) did, and that is win Grey Cups. He really doesn't deserve this fate, but that's life, that is now his situation by the looks of it.
Look at Flutie with the Bills and Rob Johnson. Wade Phillips will never, ever live that down.
There have been lots of examples, Tebow is not the only one to have this happen to him and yes the coaches/GM's in several cities (but not all) are just plain too lazy or foolish or inferior to give Tebow a shot at a backup role.
If the man really, really wants it he needs to go to the CFL and do what Flutie (similar issues with fan popularity and style/physical mechanics) and Warren Moon (similar issues with (let's say) style of play) did, and that is win Grey Cups. He really doesn't deserve this fate, but that's life, that is now his situation by the looks of it.
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Yikes I knew he was terrible but that is shocking.ducktales said:One could look at the 4th quarter stats you posted and come away impressed, but there's one problem with that - there are 4 quarters of football (link as well to the stats you posted above to see what period of time is being referenced).ducktales said:>I laughed at you because you're being a baby. "wahh, you don't agree with me so im going to call you a lunatic."
Tim Tebow's 4th Quarter Stats
- 6 come from behind wins.
- 7 TDs, 33 first downs, and a QB rating of 110.
- 5.7 yards per-carry rushing average with 2 TD and 11 first downs.
He is blessed with the clutch gene, one of the most important qualities a QB can have. its what eli has and its why he is 2 and 0 in the Superbowl against a QB --brady-- that puts up superior stats than him.
Here's the thing - the clutch gene is not one of the most important qualities of a QB. It's the ability to throw the football.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct
Going back 11 years (2002 through 2012), this lists the QB who started the majority of the games for each of the 32 teams (for a total of 352 specific points of comparison). During those 11 years, there have only been 4 QB's who had a completion percentage lower than 50%:
2004 - Mark Brunell (Jax) - 49.8%
2005 - JP Losman (Buffalo) - 49.6%
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 48.8%
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 46.5%
In 11 years, Tebow was the worst starting QB from a pass completion percentage.
Also from that same time period, in looking at the Average Passing Yards per Game, here is where Tebow stacks up:
2011 - Tim Tebow (Denver) - 124 yards/game
2010 - Jimmy Claussen (Carolina) - 120 yards/game
2003 - Kyle Boller (Baltimore) - 115 yards/game
2009 - Jamarcus Russell (Oakland) - 107 yards/game
In 11 years, Tebow as the 4th worst passer in the league from a passing yards per game perspective.
Also from that same time period, while on the low end, Tebow wasn't the QB with the lowest QB rating (in 2011 in Denver, his rating was 72.9%). There were other QB's with ratings below the 72.9, but in looking at those individuals historically, a vast majority of them were not starting the prior year (or even in the league).
From a statistical perspective, Tebow is not a very good QB no matter how hard someone may try to paint the picture otherwise. Was he part of a winning team back in 2011? Sure thing - but a win is something accomplished by an entire team - these are stats that are his alone.
Just from casual observations watching some of the games he played in I don't think I have ever seen an nfl qb in my 40 odd years miss players so badly....it was like watching a junior high qb
Jeremy
Footballguy
He doesn't offer enough value for a team as a backup. If a team is going to put up with the distraction of his extreme celebrity, it's going to be for a team that thinks he can be their franchise QB.
shader
Footballguy
It's all about the distractions that signing Tebow brings.
The people saying "he's a terrible qb" have no idea what they are talking about.
He performed very well in his 2nd season, leading a team to the playoffs and throwing for over 300 yards against Pittsburgh. Since then he has had no opportunity. The Jets were a train-wreck.
Perhaps he'll get his shot. I certainly hope so. Most first round QB's get a chance to actually grow. Tebow hasn't received that opportunity. I hope he gets it again.
The people saying "he's a terrible qb" have no idea what they are talking about.
He performed very well in his 2nd season, leading a team to the playoffs and throwing for over 300 yards against Pittsburgh. Since then he has had no opportunity. The Jets were a train-wreck.
Perhaps he'll get his shot. I certainly hope so. Most first round QB's get a chance to actually grow. Tebow hasn't received that opportunity. I hope he gets it again.
PatsFanCT
Footballguy
He had his shot. Long before the media circus came to NY, there were 30 teams that did not want him, and now there are none.If he was so wonderful in Denver, why was it that only two of the worst teams in the league had any interest in him?
If any team thought he could help them, they would sign him without considering the hype that goes along with it.
If any team thought he could help them, they would sign him without considering the hype that goes along with it.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
If by that you mean "remember the games" and "looked at the stats".
He did play really well against Pitt, but if we really break down the game, he was 10 for 21 with two tds and no ints and 316 yards. The bulk of his yardage came on three passes to Thomas, a 58 and 51 and the 80 yard game winner. He made good throws on all the plays but the reality is it was Thomas beating up on a depleted and injured secondary that won this game. I don't want to discount or marginalize his 8 wins but some, such as beating the bears in ot while they are in a 5 game losing streak with Caleb Hanie don't lend much to the "he just wins" argument. He didn't win a single game against a playoff team in the regular season.
There are some advantages that Tebow brings to an offense, he keeps the opposing defense on the field and it has very few turnovers, but the truth is he doesn't have the ability as a passer to keep up with the better high powered offenses in the league.
I wish him well in the CFL but it doesn't make sense, for many of the reasons listed in this thread and more, for an NFL to take a chance on him now
you mean jason collins didn't sign with a team yet while the playoffs are still going on ? Fact is, he has a much higher chance of signing with a team since coming out of the closet, and if this washed up player isn't on a team before the start of next season i'll be extremely shocked.
"1. He gets the ball in the end zone more often than any QB in football today
2. He protects the football better than any QB in football today
The Broncos clearly have not scored a lot of points with Tebow at quarterback. In fact, Denver has averaged just 19.3 points per game in Tebow's six starts and has scored 18 points or fewer in five of those games. And clearly, the defense has improved dramatically in recent weeks, either purely as coincidence or as a by-product of the fact that Tebow has helped the team improve in all areas by protecting the football.
But Tebow himself has been deadly with the ball in his hands. He produces touchdowns at an amazing clip, better than any quarterback in football in his brief career. Here's a comparison of Tebow vs. some of the more prolific quarterbacks in recent history.
Career percentage of touches that result in a TD:
Tim Tebow -- 6.0 percent
Aaron Rodgers -- 5.7 percent
Peyton Manning -- 5.5 percent
Tom Brady -- 5.1 percent
Drew Brees -- 4.7 percent
John Elway -- 3.9 percent
But the Broncos are winning not just because Tebow protects the football, but because he protects it better than any QB in the game today. Here's how he stacks up against some of the more prolific QBs in the game today.
Career interception percentage:
Tim Tebow -- 1.78 percent
Aaron Rodgers -- 1.83 percent
Tom Brady -- 2.2 percent
Drew Brees -- 2.71 percent
Peyton Manning -- 2.75 percent
John Elway -- 3.1 percent
Add in that Tebow has lost just one fumble in his career (with four INT) and his turnover rate is an incredibly miniscule 1.4 percent. "
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html
2. He protects the football better than any QB in football today
The Broncos clearly have not scored a lot of points with Tebow at quarterback. In fact, Denver has averaged just 19.3 points per game in Tebow's six starts and has scored 18 points or fewer in five of those games. And clearly, the defense has improved dramatically in recent weeks, either purely as coincidence or as a by-product of the fact that Tebow has helped the team improve in all areas by protecting the football.
But Tebow himself has been deadly with the ball in his hands. He produces touchdowns at an amazing clip, better than any quarterback in football in his brief career. Here's a comparison of Tebow vs. some of the more prolific quarterbacks in recent history.
Career percentage of touches that result in a TD:
Tim Tebow -- 6.0 percent
Aaron Rodgers -- 5.7 percent
Peyton Manning -- 5.5 percent
Tom Brady -- 5.1 percent
Drew Brees -- 4.7 percent
John Elway -- 3.9 percent
But the Broncos are winning not just because Tebow protects the football, but because he protects it better than any QB in the game today. Here's how he stacks up against some of the more prolific QBs in the game today.
Career interception percentage:
Tim Tebow -- 1.78 percent
Aaron Rodgers -- 1.83 percent
Tom Brady -- 2.2 percent
Drew Brees -- 2.71 percent
Peyton Manning -- 2.75 percent
John Elway -- 3.1 percent
Add in that Tebow has lost just one fumble in his career (with four INT) and his turnover rate is an incredibly miniscule 1.4 percent. "
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html
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Witz
Footballguy
You do realize that you posted an article that was created halfway through the 2011 season right making everything posted above irrelevant as it relates to Tebow's career?
Keep fighting the fight!
LawFitz
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
We're seriously still having this discussion? Look, if Russell Wilson can overcome the single biggest liability for QBs getting a chance at the NFL (height) and succeed, this is on no one but Tebow. He's been with two teams, had a chance to impress two coaching staffs, one of which traded for him, and he didn't get it done. End of story.
Check the date of the article- he fumbled 8 times (losing 5 of them) and had 5 INT's in his last 5 games of the season.Damn, err I mean darn,
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't think it's likely that Tebow would ever amount to more than an inconsistent, average NFL QB as his upside. That said, some (nearly all, really) of the folks in here who clearly dislike them are really throwing out some poor and inaccurate arguments. Case in point..
1) Stop quoting completion percentage without putting it into context. It's the mark of a stat regurgitator with no concept of how those stats arise. It's lazy. Tebow led the NFL in yards per completion in his year with Denver and for his career is among the all-time leaders in yards per completion. Denver ran a unique offense that used a lot of low percentage, high reward passes. Bombs when the defense was creeping up, 3rd and 10's after failed runs, etc. This wasn't your typical NFL offense where the completion percentage was weighted up via a lot of short drags and underneath throws. Tebow is not an accurate passer, but he's also not a 47% completion percentage passer. Realistically, running a normal offense he's probably more of a ~55% guy, which is still bad for an NFL QB. Just stop spouting off this 47% crap as if it means something. It's not in context.
2) Stop talking about the magical defense that is somehow great despite being ranked 24th in the league (even removing Orton's games). That's a neat magic trick. They were not good. Just ask Tom Brady who I'm pretty sure played that playoff game with his eyes closed and couldn't figure out a way to not throw a touchdown every time he released the ball.
3) Stop pretending like Tebow didn't do his part to help, especially in the playoff win. Everyone sucked in that game except one guy. The defense gave up 23 points to Pittsburgh which is pretty much an automatic loss (Pitt was 7-0 when hitting that number on the season). McGahee ran at 3.2ypc and added a critical fumble for good measure. Even Demaryius Thomas, who was at the other end of Tebow's big plays, had some brutal drops that should have cost his team the game. Meanwhile Tebow threw for 316 yards and 2 TDs, as well as added another 50/1 on the ground at 5.0ypc, all with no turnovers.
I hate having to say this in every Tebow thread. Tebow isn't nearly as good as his zealots think. However, he's also not nearly as bad as all his haters think either, and for the rational folks in the middle the haters throwing out these ridiculous notions that they've tricked themselves into believing are every bit as abnoxious as the people that want Tebow to start because they think god helps him win.
1) Stop quoting completion percentage without putting it into context. It's the mark of a stat regurgitator with no concept of how those stats arise. It's lazy. Tebow led the NFL in yards per completion in his year with Denver and for his career is among the all-time leaders in yards per completion. Denver ran a unique offense that used a lot of low percentage, high reward passes. Bombs when the defense was creeping up, 3rd and 10's after failed runs, etc. This wasn't your typical NFL offense where the completion percentage was weighted up via a lot of short drags and underneath throws. Tebow is not an accurate passer, but he's also not a 47% completion percentage passer. Realistically, running a normal offense he's probably more of a ~55% guy, which is still bad for an NFL QB. Just stop spouting off this 47% crap as if it means something. It's not in context.
2) Stop talking about the magical defense that is somehow great despite being ranked 24th in the league (even removing Orton's games). That's a neat magic trick. They were not good. Just ask Tom Brady who I'm pretty sure played that playoff game with his eyes closed and couldn't figure out a way to not throw a touchdown every time he released the ball.
3) Stop pretending like Tebow didn't do his part to help, especially in the playoff win. Everyone sucked in that game except one guy. The defense gave up 23 points to Pittsburgh which is pretty much an automatic loss (Pitt was 7-0 when hitting that number on the season). McGahee ran at 3.2ypc and added a critical fumble for good measure. Even Demaryius Thomas, who was at the other end of Tebow's big plays, had some brutal drops that should have cost his team the game. Meanwhile Tebow threw for 316 yards and 2 TDs, as well as added another 50/1 on the ground at 5.0ypc, all with no turnovers.
I hate having to say this in every Tebow thread. Tebow isn't nearly as good as his zealots think. However, he's also not nearly as bad as all his haters think either, and for the rational folks in the middle the haters throwing out these ridiculous notions that they've tricked themselves into believing are every bit as abnoxious as the people that want Tebow to start because they think god helps him win.
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#1 he was getting trashed while that article was up to date, so people that hate tebow will just say anything regardlessCheck the date of the article- he fumbled 8 times (losing 5 of them) and had 5 INT's in his last 5 games of the season.Damn, err I mean darn,
#2 it was basically his first and only season starting, so it makes sense he will be up and down. The fact he showed promise for a stretch of games in his first season starting +winning a playoff game makes it sickening that he can't get another chance to start just because he is religious.
I can't speak for everyone, but I know a lot of people like me want Tebow to start because he showed a lot of promise and had success in his first year starting, so it makes no sense for him not to have another chance to start.
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Can we please stop pretending like the Jets organization matters in terms of Tebow criticism?
"[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets refuse to play Tebow[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– The Jets put on their Fonzie leather jacket and jumped the personnel shark when they simply refused to play Tebow, even when Sanchez’s season spun helplessly down the sewer.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Tebow simply rode the bench all year, save for a couple token snaps. He attempted 8 passes all year. The decision to ignore Tebow gave the Jets the appearance of a rudder-less ship: somebody very high in the organization wanted Tebow on the team; but somebody stalking the sideline clearly didn’t want him to play.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Put another way: the top of the Jets depth chart was filled by one quarterback who couldn’t play and another quarterback they wouldn’t play.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets play Greg McElroy[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– Sanchez become the butt – quite literally – of a national joke when his terrible play met a physically and symbolically terrible moment.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In a 49-19 home loss to the Patriots on Thanksgiving night witnessed only by every football fan in America, Sanchez managed to get pancaked by the ### of his own center – defying the known laws of Newtonian physics in the process.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]He also fumbled the ball, which the Patriots scooped up and ran in for a touchdown. Pictures of the play ran on an endless loop on TV and internet video for weeks.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Sanchez was so bad the following week against the Cardinals (10 of 21, 97 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 21.4 rating) that even coach Rex Ryan had to sit his beloved little binky.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]But instead of giving productive back-up Tebow a shot, the Jets instead inserted forgotten third-stringer McElroy in the line-up in a late-season game against the Chargers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets lost, 27-17, marking the end of the McElroy experiment. Sanchez started the final game of the year and was perfectly inept in a 28-9 loss to the Bills.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]The Jets chose to suck[/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=11.5pt]– The worst part of this whole charade is that the Jets failed to insert Tebow in the line up even as it became apparent to everyone not coaching the Jets that they needed a change at quarterback.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]As we noted over the weekend, Sanchez was perhaps the worst quarterback in football in 2012, with a 55.3 [/SIZE]Real Quarterback Rating. It’s worth noting that Tebow’s career Real Quarterback Rating of 81.2 would have been good enough for 14th in the NFL last year.
[SIZE=11.5pt]There is [/SIZE]no doubt by any empirical measure that Tebow would have been a more productive quarterback than Sanchez. There is no doubt by any empirical measure that the Jets would have been more likely to win games with Tebow at quarterback.
[SIZE=11.5pt]Keep in mind that teams that [/SIZE]posted a higher Real QB Rating won 85.5 percent of NFL games last year (218-37).
[SIZE=11.5pt]Yet the Jets simply refused to put Tebow on the field except for a few token snaps. They refused to give even a whiff of opportunity to a playoff quarterback who, last we saw, inspired a miraculous turnaround of the Broncos and lifted that team to just its second postseason win of the past 15 years.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]Yes, the yet the Jets refused to give THAT guy a chance to play even when it became apparent the guy on the field might have been the worst quarterback in football.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]In other words, the Jets sucked not because they had to in 2012. The Jets sucked because they chose to in 2012.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11.5pt]There's not many things worse you can say about an organization."[/SIZE]
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/end-an-error-new-york-jets-waive-tim-tebow/22528/
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I have two theories regarding ducktales:
1. He is in fact Tim Tebow. Being out of a job he has a lot of time to spend on the internet defending himself with some crazy a$$ arguments
2. He is a middle age man who probably lives with his mother and still has numerous Tim Tebow Posters all over his bedroom wall, maybe some Tim Tebow jammies that he made himself that wears to bed every night.
1. He is in fact Tim Tebow. Being out of a job he has a lot of time to spend on the internet defending himself with some crazy a$$ arguments
2. He is a middle age man who probably lives with his mother and still has numerous Tim Tebow Posters all over his bedroom wall, maybe some Tim Tebow jammies that he made himself that wears to bed every night.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
He was a TD vulture that came in for the QB inside the 5 yard line at times. Can you say SKEWED stats? I know you can manipulate stats for anything, but this is just idiotic
Buffaloes
Footballguy
2011:
Tebow's final 5 games=1-4
Orton's first 5 games=1-4
The stretch between those games may have been the wildest stretch I have seen during a season. But if you look at each win individually, it's hard to say TT was the reason Denver won most of those games. I'll give you the Minnesota and the Oakland games. He was impressive against them (despite completing less than 50% against Oak), but to be fair that can be said of just about any QB who played MN that year.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
This make WAY too much sense to be in this thread. Excellent post. When FreeBaGel makes a post like this - with all it's common sense, some of everybody in this thread better read it and pay attention. The truth has been spilled all up in here and FreeBaGel has been it's dispensiary.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Bad example,tebow actually won that year --you can't assume orton would have won--. Also, Orton has played a lot more in the NFL and the book is written on him. you do understand that 2011 was basically tebows first year starting--you could call him a rookie essentially-- right? Never heard of a young player that showed a lot of promise --along with some mistakes all young players make-- not get a second chance after that --especially ones that were drafted in the first round of a draft and is considered the best college player of all time--. it only happened because Tebow is religious --oh yeah, buzz word, "media circus" is the reason why, sure it is, yet media circus doesn't apply to jason collins--, and uses every chance to praise jesus, which makes people despise him --especially since these same people are the ones that said Tebow had no chance of succeeding in the nfl--
Be honest, insecure atheists, hypocritical religious people, seeing someone religious, that is outspoken about it, and shows no hypocrisy about it at all makes you mad --especially when this guy has been a winner all his life--
So to protect your fragile little psyche you have to lie to yourself and to others --this might be happening on an unconscious level-- saying Tebow is terrible in the NFL and doesn't deserve a second chance even though he was a first round pick --best college player of all time-- and won in basically the only year he had to start. He wasn't perfect but no young player is perfect. For them to try and deny that Tebow showed any promise at all and to say he doesn't deserve another shot to start while they only focus on his negatives--which could be improved since he is a young player with potential-- is why its so obvious that they hate him for being truly religious.
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Buffaloes
Footballguy
I'm gonna be honest, dudely. I didn't make it past here because this has nothing to do with what either of us posted above.
FWIW, I'd like to see Tebow get a shot with a team. It's entertaining football which is better than watching the guys Jax and Arizona had out there last year. But no, I don't think he was THE difference in those most of those wins. Unless his presence caused Nate Irving to jar the ball loose against Miami on an onside kick. Or unless it caused Barber to decide to run out of bounds and then cause Prater to subsequently hit 2 50+ yarders. Or unless it caused Von Miller to make a great play on Mike Tolbert knocking SD juuust outside Kaeding's kicking range. Or caused Denver's d to play lights out against a KC team that allowed only 2 completed passes all day. Or, etc...
