It’s time for Democrats and Republicans to get together... (1 Viewer)

[knowledge dropper]

Look my opinion is that Trump won by getting narrow majorities in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin. And that, with the possible exception of Ohio, it was a one time shot, not going to happen again. It’s just an opinion, take it for what it’s worth. 

 The main reason I included it in the OP was not to to “rub it in” On conservatives, but to make the point to Democrats: we don’t need to oppose Trump at every turn. We don’t need to behave like the Republicans did with Obama. It’s bad politics because Trump is going to lose anyhow. So let’s work with him when we can for the good of the country. 

I have said all along that Trump won’t run in 2020.  The GOP may be in the hands of a person that did not support Trump like Kasich. The Dem field is weak nationally with no Biden or Sanders. It’s no slam dunk.  

It’s the candidate that captures the middle and addresses issues like infrastructure that will win.  The winner of the Democratic primaries is going to have to move way left to win that side of the bracket which makes them vulnerable in the middle.  

 

[msommer]

Do you mean more the "last mile problem"? https://www.businessinsider.com/last-mile-delivery-shipping-explained

I'm not sure that's what people are talking about with infrastructure though is it? Aren't you saying more like safe bridges, well maintained roads, good signage, enough lanes to handle traffic and that kind of thing? 

Re the bolded it's really to cross the city. E.g one rail company, Pacific Union, takes it (the cargo on train waggons) to CHI. Part of the train moves on with Burlington Northern. They use different yards. Even 25 years ago when I dealt with this on a regular basis it took up to three days (when things went smoothly) to do this by rail. Normally a crosstown move by truck would be done instead (taking 3-5 hours).

"Last mile" is a separate problem

 

[AAABatteries]

Not yet, and not in the foreseeable future.  The GOP have a good thing going for them , between Russia helping them, voter restrictions, and the gerrymandering it will be almost impossible for the GOP to ever lose control of all three houses.  

Hmm, not sure your logic here holds.  Gerrymandering impacts the House which the Dems just took over.  Most are predicting a Dem to win the WH and they have a decent shot at the Senate.  It’s conceivable they could have all three come January of 2021.

 

[msommer]

Hmm, not sure your logic here holds.  Gerrymandering impacts the House which the Dems just took over.  Most are predicting a Dem to win the WH and they have a decent shot at the Senate.  It’s conceivable they could have all three come January of 2021.

Agreed, and with 4m additional teen potential voters - and another 4m 65+ potential voters expected to be dead come election day 2020 demographics are not looking kindly on old fashioned ideas

 

[The Commish]

Look my opinion is that Trump won by getting narrow majorities in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin. And that, with the possible exception of Ohio, it was a one time shot, not going to happen again. It’s just an opinion, take it for what it’s worth. 

 The main reason I included it in the OP was not to to “rub it in” On conservatives, but to make the point to Democrats: we don’t need to oppose Trump at every turn. We don’t need to behave like the Republicans did with Obama. It’s bad politics because Trump is going to lose anyhow. So let’s work with him when we can for the good of the country. 

His point remains.  The generalization of "the midwest" is unproductive.  Of course there are going to be states that vote GOP no matter what, same with Dems.  But there's a lot more than "the midwest" left behind when you take all those into consideration.

 

[timschochet]

His point remains.  The generalization of "the midwest" is unproductive.  Of course there are going to be states that vote GOP no matter what, same with Dems.  But there's a lot more than "the midwest" left behind when you take all those into consideration.

We disagree but fine. It was not my intention here to disparage anyone. The point of this thread is let’s move on as a country to things we can hopefully agree on. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

The problem, of course, is cost. We’re talking trillions of dollars. Some say deficits don’t matter but at some point they must.

 

[timschochet]

The problem, of course, is cost. We’re talking trillions of dollars. Some say deficits don’t matter but at some point they must.

This is true and of course we squandered a ton of money on the tax cut. That’s not coming back so long as the Republicans share control, so you’re correct that this is going to cost a lot and make the debt much worse. 

But- you know that old conservative argument that tax cuts lead to economic growth and will therefore eventually pay for themselves? That argument almost never turns out to be true. But I think it IS true for investment in infrastructure. I really believe that this is one of 3 key investments we can make to our society that will ensure greater economic growth in the future, which is the only way, short of catastrophic budget cuts, to reduce the debt.

The other investments involves replacing our current energy methods, and changing our health care system, but those  will be much more difficult IMO to gain Republican support for. So let’s go for the easy one first. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Trump had his chance on infrastructure. He literally had both branches of Congress, the executive branch and a conservative leaning Supreme Court. He had his joke of “infrastructure week” twice and didn’t do anything, neither did Paul Ryan. Now we’re going to do something? Color me highly skeptical.

What’s the lesson? Elect competent politicians, not Donald Trump. What a setback. 

 

[KCitons]

We disagree but fine. It was not my intention here to disparage anyone. The point of this thread is let’s move on as a country to things we can hopefully agree on. 

Right. Perhaps not intentionally. Which is why I stated it was a passive aggressive comment. 

Blaming the election of Trump on a small geographic area, when the map clearly shows he won states as far west as Utah and Arizona, and as far south as Florida and South Carolina, is not moving on as a country. 

 

[Dedfin]

I don't even know why this is a thread. We've had 326 infrastructure weeks so far in this admin. We should be all good.

 

[Stealthycat]

...on an infrastructure deal. 

The wall fight is over. Trump lost. There’s not going to be another shutdown. Maybe there will be a border security for DACA deal, maybe Trump will declare a national emergency (he’ll just look foolish and lose in the courts if he tries) but there won’t be a wall. Time to move on. 

The Democrats can gloat and have a bunch of committees investigating Trump, but I don’t think this will go down well with the public. Barring a miracle, Trump is a one term lame duck. He was an experiment that some people in the Midwest wanted to try out; it turned out awful, they won’t do it again. The next President will be a Democrat, and 2019-20 will be largely devoted to finding out which one. 

That leaves us the question of what the federal government should do over the next couple of years. The one thing that polls consistently tell us is that everyone, conservative and liberal and independent alike, is sick of all the fighting. They want something accomplished, something big. Infrastructure seems like the obvious choice. 

I agree that there should be more partisan work - but Democrats are a one platform party right now - anti-Trump. Anything Trump is for, they're against. That's clear and simple. This Russia thing is a 2 year head hunt and still not over and people are sick of it. I'd say most people are sick of the games in DC.

Trump votes are happy with things right now - its been a great 2 years of economic growth and conservative moves. We like the direction - we could use less Trump mouth and tweets though and if another GOP candidate steps up? Sounds good to me.

#1 thing right now that they can fix is immigration - like that 2013 plan. Get it done. That 2013 plan with some tweaks could be a win win

 

[timschochet]

Right. Perhaps not intentionally. Which is why I stated it was a passive aggressive comment. 

Blaming the election of Trump on a small geographic area, when the map clearly shows he won states as far west as Utah and Arizona, and as far south as Florida and South Carolina, is not moving on as a country. 

I know that you’re smart enough to realize the difference between swing states and red states, so I’m not sure why you keep harping on this point. Of course Trump won every red state that the Republican candidate is supposed to win. He also won several purple states, most of them in the midwest, and these won him the election and was the point of my comment. There was no passive aggressive stuff- that’s nonsense. I was clear in what I wrote, and I can only apologize if you took it amiss. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

What Trump should probably do is start by asking for a new interstate highway running from Brownsville to San Ysidro and have it built with side sound panels to help protect the desert environment.

 

[KCitons]

I know that you’re smart enough to realize the difference between swing states and red states, so I’m not sure why you keep harping on this point. Of course Trump won every red state that the Republican candidate is supposed to win. He also won several purple states, most of them in the midwest, and these won him the election and was the point of my comment. There was no passive aggressive stuff- that’s nonsense. I was clear in what I wrote, and I can only apologize if you took it amiss. 

So you are blaming the purple states only. Not the red states?

This is where your logic fails. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

This is true and of course we squandered a ton of money on the tax cut. That’s not coming back so long as the Republicans share control, so you’re correct that this is going to cost a lot and make the debt much worse. 

But- you know that old conservative argument that tax cuts lead to economic growth and will therefore eventually pay for themselves? That argument almost never turns out to be true. But I think it IS true for investment in infrastructure. I really believe that this is one of 3 key investments we can make to our society that will ensure greater economic growth in the future, which is the only way, short of catastrophic budget cuts, to reduce the debt.

The other investments involves replacing our current energy methods, and changing our health care system, but those  will be much more difficult IMO to gain Republican support for. So let’s go for the easy one first. 

Yes,  you're right. The debt makes me uneasy but it needs to be done.  I think you're right about it being an investment for economic growth.  

You mention this being "easy" but the fights on where the dollars go would be epic.  It's going to be really hard for the sides to come to an agreement.  It's possible though.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Your right, Obama was right and it's all the fault of the right. Beer 30, enjoy the rest of the weekend!

Legit question:  in retrospect, shouldn’t we have gone all in on large infrastructure projects backnin ‘09-‘10, when interest rates were zero (cheap money) and cheap labor was abundant.  Seems like we could have gotten a helluva deal - huge boost to the economy, much stronger and safer infrastructure, that would be paying off in spades now and in the future.  

Thoughts? 

 

[tommyGunZ]

I agree that there should be more partisan work - but Democrats are a one platform party right now - anti-Trump. Anything Trump is for, they're against. That's clear and simple. This Russia thing is a 2 year head hunt and still not over and people are sick of it. I'd say most people are sick of the games in DC.

Trump votes are happy with things right now - its been a great 2 years of economic growth and conservative moves. We like the direction - we could use less Trump mouth and tweets though and if another GOP candidate steps up? Sounds good to me.

#1 thing right now that they can fix is immigration - like that 2013 plan. Get it done. That 2013 plan with some tweaks could be a win win

Funny how you law and order, strict boarder folks sure don’t seem to care when a bunch of white men are indicted for violating laws.  If you’re poor and brown and come into our country illegally to work low skill jobs to feed your kids you’re a criminal who needs to be deported, but if you’re a rich white man who worked for Trump and committed felonies, you’re tired of see those people charged with crimes.  

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Funny how you law and order, strict boarder folks sure don’t seem to care when a bunch of white men are indicted for violating laws.  If you’re poor and brown and come into our country illegally to work low skill jobs to feed your kids you’re a criminal who needs to be deported, but if you’re a rich white man who worked for Trump and committed felonies, you’re tired of see those people charged with crimes.  

Says the guy that literally pushed for and voted for a white criminal.   

 

[Juxtatarot]

Criminal justice reform is an example of how it's possible for both sides to work together to get important things accomplished under Trump.  I don't think the new House needs to change that.

 

[KCitons]

Funny how you law and order, strict boarder folks sure don’t seem to care when a bunch of white men are indicted for violating laws.  If you’re poor and brown and come into our country illegally to work low skill jobs to feed your kids you’re a criminal who needs to be deported, but if you’re a rich white man who worked for Trump and committed felonies, you’re tired of see those people charged with crimes.  

Can you point to a specific post or site that doesn't care about people being indicted? I don't hang out in all the threads, so maybe I'm missing it.

I've been saying for decades that most politicians are corrupt. They rarely act alone. 

 

[Sammy3469]

Times change. 

Not when the President systematically lies and pumps propaganda (see this morning tweets).  Until he and his Republican enablers (because a whole swath a Republicans support him in this nonsense), Democrats should continue to tell them to pound sand.

 

[Herb]

Jeez guys. The thread is titled "Time for Democrats and Republicans to get together on an infrastructure deal."

Not: " Time for dems and reps to get together and continue flinging poo at each other like monkeys just like we do in every single other thread."

Can we all just maybe talk about it instead of trying to win the talking point war?

 

[msommer]

Says the guy that literally pushed for and voted for a white criminal.   

Criminal says you? 

In TGZ's post it seems the defining factor on crminal is "been indicted/charged/plead guilty". 

What are your criterea?

 

[AAABatteries]

Jeez guys. The thread is titled "Time for Democrats and Republicans to get together on an infrastructure deal."

Not: " Time for dems and reps to get together and continue flinging poo at each other like monkeys just like we do in every single other thread."

Can we all just maybe talk about it instead of trying to win the talking point war?

No - screw you guy!!

Agree - infrastructure improvements is something everybody should agree on - get it done.

 

[timschochet]

One significant difference between the two sides: Democrats want big government projects like the Tennessee Valley or the Hoover Dam. Republicans want money awarded to private companies and have them do the heavy lifting.

How should we resolve this? 

 

[cubd8]

Times change. 

Democrats did say they will only negotiate if the government is open. The government is now open.

Trump did offer a few deals around DACA and wall funding. Some Democrats seem open to "enhanced fencing" vs. a wall.

What happens next? Do both sides actually make a deal? Compromise? Both sides must if there's a deal to be had.

 

[cubd8]

One significant difference between the two sides: Democrats want big government projects like the Tennessee Valley or the Hoover Dam. Republicans want money awarded to private companies and have them do the heavy lifting.

How should we resolve this? 

Probably the reason infrastructure deals will fail.

Neither side can agree on the actual terms other than the headlines (rebuilding America, jobs, boost to economy) sound great and easy to run on. Nobody disagrees with the headline, just the details.

 

[cubd8]

Legit question:  in retrospect, shouldn’t we have gone all in on large infrastructure projects backnin ‘09-‘10, when interest rates were zero (cheap money) and cheap labor was abundant.  Seems like we could have gotten a helluva deal - huge boost to the economy, much stronger and safer infrastructure, that would be paying off in spades now and in the future.  

Thoughts? 

Didn't Obama get a pretty big bill for infrastructure and then most of the money didn't go to that?

 

[Juxtatarot]

How should we resolve this? 

Compromise!

 

[Slapdash]

Legit question:  in retrospect, shouldn’t we have gone all in on large infrastructure projects backnin ‘09-‘10, when interest rates were zero (cheap money) and cheap labor was abundant.  Seems like we could have gotten a helluva deal - huge boost to the economy, much stronger and safer infrastructure, that would be paying off in spades now and in the future.  

Thoughts? 

 

[jonessed]

I would suggest your next “let’s work together message” not contain potshots.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Didn't Obama get a pretty big bill for infrastructure and then most of the money didn't go to that?

No.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

I certainly do not want to see something like Boston’s “The Big Dig” to happen elsewhere.  This $2.5B project ended costing about $25B and we are still paying for the shoddy work. The new tunnel had water leaks everywhere and fallen concrete slabs had crushed a women driver to death.

By most accounts, isnt the Big Dig a huge success?  Sure there were enormous cost issues, but in retrospect it was money well spent and Bostonians love the transformation undergrounding 93 had on the City.  My friends who live there, at least.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

Congress passed the Recovery Act to spend $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.  Surely that package included some money for infrastructure projects?

Some.  Much of it was simply tax breaks.  

 

[tommyGunZ]

Substandard materials should not have been used in a project that costed so much.

In a project that big, of course some mistakes will be made.  

 

[GoBirds]

Congress passed the Recovery Act to spend $831 billion between 2009 and 2019.  Surely that package included some money for infrastructure projects?

Yes you are correct. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

 

[GoBirds]

By most accounts, isnt the Big Dig a huge success?  Sure there were enormous cost issues, but in retrospect it was money well spent and Bostonians love the transformation undergrounding 93 had on the City.  My friends who live there, at least.  

A $2.5B project that ended up costing $25B with poor workmanship was a success? Wow.  So that’s what winning feels like. 

 

[Slapdash]

Oh, he still can't respond to your simple question @tommyGunZ I'm shocked 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Yes you are correct. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009

Only about $100 billion went to infrastructure.  We should spend more than 10 times that.

 

[GoBirds]

Oh, he still can't respond to your simple question @tommyGunZ I'm shocked 

Maybe read above, like most of your posts his wasn’t accurate. 

So when you are just trying to stir the pot like this is that considered being excellent a Joe asked? Try not to act childish, no one is obligated to respond to all 20 questions from the regular ranters. 

Also as seen above he like you is known for not keeping it excellent. 

 

[Slapdash]

Maybe read above, like most of your posts his wasn’t accurate. 

So when you are just trying to stir the pot like this is that considered being excellent a Joe asked? Try not to act childish, no one is obligated to respond to all 20 questions from the regular ranters. 

Have you answered his question?  Please send a link if so

 

[GoBirds]

Only about $100 billion went to infrastructure.  We should spend more than 10 times that.

Our region has started to have significant issues with drainage recently, I’m not against it by any means. Some in here just look to pick cyber fights over anything they can find. 

I not against what Tim’s proposing. 

 

[GoBirds]

Have you answered his question?  Please send a link if so

Bradyfan already did. 

I prefer to avoid trolls like you two that seem to always avoid fair moderation. Have fun trolling fella. 

 

[GoBirds]

Maybe our expectation was too high?

The fact that someone makes excuses for a disaster like that speaks to any kind of credibility. Infrastructure is important but how do you get government to prevent a disaster like that again?

 

[Slapdash]

Have you answered his question?  Please send a link if so

Bradyfan already did. 

I prefer to avoid trolls like you two that seem to always avoid fair moderation. Have fun trolling fella. 

"No" would have been an easier answer.  Yet you antagonize and troll instead.

 

[GoBirds]

"No" would have been an easier answer.  Yet you antagonize and troll instead.

Stinky bait. Don’t think this is what @timschochet intended for this thread. 

 

[Slapdash]

Stinky bait. Don’t think this is what @timschochet intended for this thread. 

Yes, I doubt anyone anticipated you being unable to be something than a troll.  You were given a direct question.  You resulted with personal insults instead.

 

[Shula-holic]

In hindsight sure doing the border earlier makes sense if you are really worried about the border wall. My CPA expense savings in the roughly $10k range, to a small business owner that’s much more significant than th wall but I understand all you do is look to point out negative so I get it. 

Yeah for small business owners, for example those with pass through entity structure, the tax bill took the boot off our throat.

 

[GoBirds]

Yes, I doubt anyone anticipated you being unable to be something than a troll.  You were given a direct question.  You resulted with personal insults instead.

Try to act like an adult, you weren’t part of any discussion and decide to chime in as you like to troll me. Question was answered, grow up.