It's okay Peyton, you're 7-0, ... (1 Viewer)

[shakeybarn]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

 

[pinequick]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Good info here.

 

[SSOG]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Elway made the superbowl 3 times before Terrell Davis came along. In the first season, his leading rusher had 789 yards. In the second season, his leading rusher had 741 yards. In the third season, his leading rusher had a "remarkable" 1151 yards. In *NONE* of those seasons did his leading rusher crack 4 yards per carry.Elway's leading receivers in those three superbowl seasons were Steve Watson and Vance Johnson. Neither gentleman ever made the pro bowl, and in two of the three years, neither even caught 50 balls.In Elway's three superbowl seasons, only one other player on the entire offense made the Pro Bowl (Sammy Winder was a 2nd alternate in 1986 when he rushed for 789 yards at a stunning 3.3 yards per carry).Elway may not have been able to "complete the job", but at least he was able to make it with absolute rubbish around him on offense. Peyton Manning has had Harrison, Wayne, Edgerrin James, and the best pass-blocking OL in the entire NFL for years now. How many times has *HE* made the superbowl?Your Elway hate is misplaced. Elway wasn't overrated because he lost those SBs, he's underrated because he managed to make them in the first place. There's a famous quote about Elway from Rick Reilly. "Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (126 at the time, 148 when he retired, 162 including playoffs). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo."

 

[LGOA]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

?Marvin Harrison is quietly rewriting the the record books before our eyes...PEDESTRIAN?

 

[fred_1_15301]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

. Mods--can we create a "Bad Posting" smilie please?

 

[TheLaw]

So I guess Edge didnt count??

 

[TheFanatic]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Elway made the superbowl 3 times before Terrell Davis came along. In the first season, his leading rusher had 789 yards. In the second season, his leading rusher had 741 yards. In the third season, his leading rusher had a "remarkable" 1151 yards. In *NONE* of those seasons did his leading rusher crack 4 yards per carry.Elway's leading receivers in those three superbowl seasons were Steve Watson and Vance Johnson. Neither gentleman ever made the pro bowl, and in two of the three years, neither even caught 50 balls.In Elway's three superbowl seasons, only one other player on the entire offense made the Pro Bowl (Sammy Winder was a 2nd alternate in 1986 when he rushed for 789 yards at a stunning 3.3 yards per carry).Elway may not have been able to "complete the job", but at least he was able to make it with absolute rubbish around him on offense. Peyton Manning has had Harrison, Wayne, Edgerrin James, and the best pass-blocking OL in the entire NFL for years now. How many times has *HE* made the superbowl?Your Elway hate is misplaced. Elway wasn't overrated because he lost those SBs, he's underrated because he managed to make them in the first place. There's a famous quote about Elway from Rick Reilly. "Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (126 at the time, 148 when he retired, 162 including playoffs). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo."

Do you have a dog and/or child named Elway?

 

[Despyzer]

The OP seems to be forgetting, not only did the Broncos need a 2,000 yard RB to compensate for Elway, they also needed to violate the salary cap so badly that they got fined and lost draft picks in order to do it.

 

[JuniorNB]

Manning will go down as the quarterback surrounded with the best offensive weapons who never won anything.

Yeah, his numbers will be so gaudy that he'll end up in the HOF, but whenever anyone thinks of him, they'll always remember that he was a regular season quarterback only.

 

[Despyzer]

Manning will go down as the quarterback surrounded with the best offensive weapons who never won anything.

Did Peyton retire today?

 

[Shiggy Shaol]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Impressive maneuvering from 3rd person to 2nd person here.

 

[PatsWillWin]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[code]

It seems to get easier and easier to bait the Elway-lovers every day...

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Only one disagreement here...Harrison was NEVER pedestrian.He was a stud in college - and quite frankly as much as I like McNabb, Harrison is one of the reasons McNabb became what he did in college. He is consistently among the top 5 WRs in the game, and is considered by 11/12 CBs surveyed as the toughest WR to cover in the league.As far as I'm concerned, he'd be the #1 WR on every team in the NFL except STL.

 

[SSOG]

The OP seems to be forgetting, not only did the Broncos need a 2,000 yard RB to compensate for Elway, they also needed to violate the salary cap so badly that they got fined and lost draft picks in order to do it.

Despyzer seems to be unfamiliar with the nature of Denver's "cap violations".In one case, Shanahan told a player that he wasn't going to be cut during training camp, but that player's bonus wasn't immediately switched over to Guaranteed money. In another case, Pat Bowlen didn't have the money to pay several players their salary on their existing contracts because of the new stadium construction, so he paid them back a year later with a bit of interest. That second violation not only didn't give Denver the slightest advantage (the contract numbers were already agreed upon, so it's not like the players signed their contract knowing they'd be getting more money- and in fact, they didn't get any more money, because if they'd been paid on time and put their money in a savings account they would have ended up with the same amount after the year was over, anyway), but it also didn't come during the Superbowl years- it came the year after.Oh yeah, there was some real egregious cap violation going on in Denver during the superbowl years.

 

[Warpig]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

Soon people will learn that you need a good offensive line to win a SB. Peyton has/had tons of weapons, but no O-line. He also hasn't had a top rated defense. I'm pretty sure all of the SB teams of the past have had very good defenses and O-lines. Comparison:You have Indianapolis with all their offensive weapons but not a very solid O-line and a pedestrian, at best, defense. Early playoff dismissals every time.You have the upstart Jacksonville Jaguars who started building their team with Offensive linemen, then scrap heap skill players. The result? An incredible playoff run (in their second year I believe) that had them with arguably one of the best offensive lines of the era. They went to Denver and won there, and also beat Buffalo at Buffalo. Solid O-line + solid defense + average skill players will get you a SB before Pedestrian O-line + pedestrian defense + Awesome skill players.

 

[Despyzer]

Oh yeah, there was some real egregious cap violation going on in Denver during the superbowl years.

And Merriman is a victim of the system. You can paint it however you like, but cheating is cheating.

 

[PMENFAN]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Elway made the superbowl 3 times before Terrell Davis came along. In the first season, his leading rusher had 789 yards. In the second season, his leading rusher had 741 yards. In the third season, his leading rusher had a "remarkable" 1151 yards. In *NONE* of those seasons did his leading rusher crack 4 yards per carry.Elway's leading receivers in those three superbowl seasons were Steve Watson and Vance Johnson. Neither gentleman ever made the pro bowl, and in two of the three years, neither even caught 50 balls.In Elway's three superbowl seasons, only one other player on the entire offense made the Pro Bowl (Sammy Winder was a 2nd alternate in 1986 when he rushed for 789 yards at a stunning 3.3 yards per carry).Elway may not have been able to "complete the job", but at least he was able to make it with absolute rubbish around him on offense. Peyton Manning has had Harrison, Wayne, Edgerrin James, and the best pass-blocking OL in the entire NFL for years now. How many times has *HE* made the superbowl?Your Elway hate is misplaced. Elway wasn't overrated because he lost those SBs, he's underrated because he managed to make them in the first place. There's a famous quote about Elway from Rick Reilly. "Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (126 at the time, 148 when he retired, 162 including playoffs). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo."

Well said SSOG. I'm no Bronco fan, but you can't take anything away from Elway. I think you could have plugged a lot of different backs into that offense at the time, and the Broncos would have won. It wasn't just the running game, but the Defense. The ability to stretch the field to Eddie Mac and Rod Smith. It was Elway. Say what you want. The man was a winner, and for my vote, the best player ever to play the game, even if he did play for the ##*%%&$#@# Broncos.

 

[PMENFAN]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

Soon people will learn that you need a good offensive line to win a SB. Peyton has/had tons of weapons, but no O-line. He also hasn't had a top rated defense. I'm pretty sure all of the SB teams of the past have had very good defenses and O-lines. Comparison:You have Indianapolis with all their offensive weapons but not a very solid O-line and a pedestrian, at best, defense. Early playoff dismissals every time.

I believe Indi averages 18 Offensive PPg and 3 TO's by their QB in their playoff dismissal games. Defense isn't the problem, it's the performance by their QB. Their line was great. Harrison is a stud. I was livid the day the Pats got Glenn and not Harrison. He was, and remains, the better WR. And Edge? Only one of the top backs in the league for many years. He lost a bit to an ACL, and he was bouyed by the line, but still a stud.

You have the upstart Jacksonville Jaguars who started building their team with Offensive linemen, then scrap heap skill players. The result? An incredible playoff run (in their second year I believe) that had them with arguably one of the best offensive lines of the era. They went to Denver and won there, and also beat Buffalo at Buffalo.

I'd disagree that Brunnell in his prime, with JImmy Smith and McCardell, all of whom had very good career, were scrap heap players. The team contended for a number of years, and fell apart because of the line and a coach that was tuned out. Their model was fine. So, they didn't makek it to the SB? There were some good teams in the AFC at the time keeping them out. They weren't an all time great, but scrap heap?

Solid O-line + solid defense + average skill players will get you a SB before Pedestrian O-line + pedestrian defense + Awesome skill players.

I'd never generalize. The coach makes all the difference in the world. And, who the players are. The Colts problem has been Manning, and Manning alone. He's played his worst games on the big stage. He's a great player, and people can make all the excuses they want, but the fact remains. He's got the big money. He's got the supplemental weapons, loads of them. And, he's got the line around him. One the biggest stage, time and again, he's played his worst games; time and again costing his team and himself the opportunity to advance.

 

[Urine_Idiot]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

. Mods--can we create a "Bad Posting" smilie please?

 

[Spartans Rule]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

A mediocre-at-best offensive line and an absolutely piss-poor run defense = enough to win the Super Bowl? The Colts have been physically manhandled at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball in their last three playoff losses. Time of possession has been horribly lopsided in the opponent's favor. Manning has been blitzed mercilessly and often sacked before he can finish his drop.To think that any QB could have led the Colts to a Super Bowl is beyond stupid.

 

[thayman]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

Soon people will learn that you need a good offensive line to win a SB. Peyton has/had tons of weapons, but no O-line. He also hasn't had a top rated defense. I'm pretty sure all of the SB teams of the past have had very good defenses and O-lines. Comparison:You have Indianapolis with all their offensive weapons but not a very solid O-line and a pedestrian, at best, defense. Early playoff dismissals every time.

I believe Indi averages 18 Offensive PPg and 3 TO's by their QB in their playoff dismissal games. Defense isn't the problem, it's the performance by their QB. Their line was great. Harrison is a stud. I was livid the day the Pats got Glenn and not Harrison. He was, and remains, the better WR. And Edge? Only one of the top backs in the league for many years. He lost a bit to an ACL, and he was bouyed by the line, but still a stud.

You have the upstart Jacksonville Jaguars who started building their team with Offensive linemen, then scrap heap skill players. The result? An incredible playoff run (in their second year I believe) that had them with arguably one of the best offensive lines of the era. They went to Denver and won there, and also beat Buffalo at Buffalo.

I'd disagree that Brunnell in his prime, with JImmy Smith and McCardell, all of whom had very good career, were scrap heap players. The team contended for a number of years, and fell apart because of the line and a coach that was tuned out. Their model was fine. So, they didn't makek it to the SB? There were some good teams in the AFC at the time keeping them out. They weren't an all time great, but scrap heap?

Solid O-line + solid defense + average skill players will get you a SB before Pedestrian O-line + pedestrian defense + Awesome skill players.

I'd never generalize. The coach makes all the difference in the world. And, who the players are. The Colts problem has been Manning, and Manning alone. He's played his worst games on the big stage. He's a great player, and people can make all the excuses they want, but the fact remains. He's got the big money. He's got the supplemental weapons, loads of them. And, he's got the line around him. One the biggest stage, time and again, he's played his worst games; time and again costing his team and himself the opportunity to advance.

I'm a huge Peyton fan. I love watching him play, call audibles, how he just marches a offense downfield almost at will. He just does what he want........in the regular season. Come playoff time for him, he has choked, every single time. Call it stagefright, the need to prove himself, whatever.....I do have to say if he can keep himself composed in the post-season Indy is very very scary.

 

[dickey moe]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Elway made the superbowl 3 times before Terrell Davis came along. In the first season, his leading rusher had 789 yards. In the second season, his leading rusher had 741 yards. In the third season, his leading rusher had a "remarkable" 1151 yards. In *NONE* of those seasons did his leading rusher crack 4 yards per carry.Elway's leading receivers in those three superbowl seasons were Steve Watson and Vance Johnson. Neither gentleman ever made the pro bowl, and in two of the three years, neither even caught 50 balls.In Elway's three superbowl seasons, only one other player on the entire offense made the Pro Bowl (Sammy Winder was a 2nd alternate in 1986 when he rushed for 789 yards at a stunning 3.3 yards per carry).Elway may not have been able to "complete the job", but at least he was able to make it with absolute rubbish around him on offense. Peyton Manning has had Harrison, Wayne, Edgerrin James, and the best pass-blocking OL in the entire NFL for years now. How many times has *HE* made the superbowl?Your Elway hate is misplaced. Elway wasn't overrated because he lost those SBs, he's underrated because he managed to make them in the first place. There's a famous quote about Elway from Rick Reilly. "Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (126 at the time, 148 when he retired, 162 including playoffs). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo."

Do you have a dog and/or child named Elway?

If it is a dog, it obviously gets a seat at the dinner table.

 

[j3r3m3y]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

. Mods--can we create a "Bad Posting" smilie please?

 

[Silver & Black]

This thread is just whack!

 

[daveR]

Manning's an excellent QB. (How many NFL teams would take him in a hearbeat?) But the NFL is a TEAM game. NOBODY wins a superbowl by himself! It takes players at every position. So, don't tell me he's not HOF material when people are suggesting Vinnie T. might be.

The game changes when you get into the playoffs. There are fewer weaknesses to exploit. Teams are solid up & down. And, the gameplans are geared toward stopping big plays. Sometimes you have to depend on your defense like Pit did last year. Big Ben has a ring. Is he better than Manning?

 

[wilked]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

. Mods--can we create a "Bad Posting" smilie please?

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3559/badposting23pb.png

 

[SSOG]

Oh yeah, there was some real egregious cap violation going on in Denver during the superbowl years.

And Merriman is a victim of the system. You can paint it however you like, but cheating is cheating.

There's a difference between breaking the rules and cheating. Cheating is breaking the rules with the express intent of gaining a competitive advantage. Denver didn't gain a competitive advantage, so they weren't cheating, they were just breaking the rules. Merriman claims he didn't INTEND to gain a competitive advantage (after Flloyd Landis, I'm sick of giving athletes the benefit of the doubt, but that's just me). If Merriman is telling the truth, then he didn't cheat, either- he just broke the rules.If you want a better illustration... coaches get fined for criticizing officiating (unless you're Mike Holmgren, apparently), but I don't think anyone would ever say that criticizing the officiating was cheating.

Solid O-line + solid defense + average skill players will get you a SB before Pedestrian O-line + pedestrian defense + Awesome skill players.

A mediocre-at-best offensive line and an absolutely piss-poor run defense = enough to win the Super Bowl?

What the heck are you guys smoking? If Indy's O-Line the past 3 seasons is "mediocre at best" or "pedestrian", then I suppose Kansas City's offensive line of the past 3 years was just "decent", and Seattle's was "alright", and Denver's was "sort of good".Here's a *FACT* for you- Indy's line has ranked 7th, 1st, 1st, and now 2nd in Adjusted Line Yards (counts all runs of 10+ yards as just 10 yards and then calculates the average per-carry of the runningbacks). That stat is designed to determine how big of an influence the line is having on an RB's success (since the difference between a 20 yard run and a 90 yard run typically has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with the WRs and RB). You can say that that's all Edgerrin James, but this year James is in Arizona, and Indy ranks 2nd in adjusted line yards while Arizona is 31st (they were 32nd last year). Edgerrin James going from Indy to Arizona has dropped Indy's adjusted line yards one rank, and raised Arizona's adjusted line yards one rank. Indy also always scores among the bottom 3 teams in the league in terms of total yards that come 10+ yards beyond the line of scrimmage- again, the hallmark of a team with ridiculously good run blocking.As far as pass blocking goes, Indy's line has ranked 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 3rd in the past 5 years in that category (which measures sacks per pass attempt and then adjusts for the quality of the passrush faced). In other words, Indy's offensive line, in addition to being a stellar run-blocking crew, is also one of the top-3 pass-blocking lines in the business. If you watched the Denver game last week, you'd see that not once during the entire second half did a Denver defender get within 3 feet of Peyton Manning before he threw the ball (and he routinely held it for 5 seconds before unloading).Manning's offensive line is RIDICULOUS- easily one of the top-5 units in the league- and has been for about 4 years now.

 

[PMENFAN]

Manning's an excellent QB. (How many NFL teams would take him in a hearbeat?) But the NFL is a TEAM game. NOBODY wins a superbowl by himself! It takes players at every position. So, don't tell me he's not HOF material when people are suggesting Vinnie T. might be. The game changes when you get into the playoffs. There are fewer weaknesses to exploit. Teams are solid up & down. And, the gameplans are geared toward stopping big plays. Sometimes you have to depend on your defense like Pit did last year. Big Ben has a ring. Is he better than Manning?

No Big Ben isn't better. But, Pitt isn't built around Big Ben winning it for them. Indi is built around Manning and the passing offense winning it. Manning #1 overall, Addai 1st rounder (replaced Edge, 1st rounder), Harrison 1st rounder, Clark-1st rounder, Wayne-1st Rounder. The line-Tarik Glenn is another first rounder, and Jeff Saturday is a great Center. The offense is build to win, but the QB doesn't show up in the playoffs. Make excuses if you want, but base them in reality. They have the weapons, the Defense isn't stellar, because the money and draft picks are spend on offense, because that's the strategy they've persued. They've put it on Mannings shoulders, and given him everything he needs. Time to make dookie, or get off the pot.

 

[Assani Fisher]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

Soon people will learn that you need a good offensive line to win a SB. Peyton has/had tons of weapons, but no O-line. He also hasn't had a top rated defense. I'm pretty sure all of the SB teams of the past have had very good defenses and O-lines.

Indy's D last year was #2 in the entire league in points allowed.

 

[Despyzer]

If you want a better illustration... coaches get fined for criticizing officiating (unless you're Mike Holmgren, apparently), but I don't think anyone would ever say that criticizing the officiating was cheating.

Link to the last coach who lost draft picks for criticizing officiating? Obviously the league felt the Broncos gained a competitive advantage or they wouldn't have tried to level it out by denying them the draft choices.

 

[Zigg]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Only one disagreement here...Harrison was NEVER pedestrian.He was a stud in college - and quite frankly as much as I like McNabb, Harrison is one of the reasons McNabb became what he did in college. He is consistently among the top 5 WRs in the game, and is considered by 11/12 CBs surveyed as the toughest WR to cover in the league.As far as I'm concerned, he'd be the #1 WR on every team in the NFL except STL.

Wasn't McNabb a freshman is Marvin's senior season? The whooping of Clemson was fun to watch though. What ever happened to Quinton Spotwood?

 

[Chaz]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

A mediocre-at-best offensive line and an absolutely piss-poor run defense = enough to win the Super Bowl? The Colts have been physically manhandled at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball in their last three playoff losses. Time of possession has been horribly lopsided in the opponent's favor. Manning has been blitzed mercilessly and often sacked before he can finish his drop.To think that any QB could have led the Colts to a Super Bowl is beyond stupid.

I wouldn't mind taking a chance with Brady in there. Don't get me wrong, I like Peyton, think he's an amazing talent, love watching him play, wish him the best, etc... However, at this point in his career, I find it hard to get excited about how good he is or the Colts are until they make a little run in the playoffs.Also, A team can't keep winning 13 games in the regular season and then suddenly have O line problems, D problems, "pedestrian" WRs, whatever, when the playoffs roll around.

 

[flapgreen]

 

[Sinrman]

Peyton will win one before he retires...

 

[flapgreen]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

Soon people will learn that you need a good offensive line to win a SB. Peyton has/had tons of weapons, but no O-line. He also hasn't had a top rated defense. I'm pretty sure all of the SB teams of the past have had very good defenses and O-lines.

Indy's D last year was #2 in the entire league in points allowed.

 

[flapgreen]

Off the top of my head, I'd also say he's one of the least sacked qb's in the league. Can anybody pull up the stats on that?

 

[SSOG]

If you want a better illustration... coaches get fined for criticizing officiating (unless you're Mike Holmgren, apparently), but I don't think anyone would ever say that criticizing the officiating was cheating.

Link to the last coach who lost draft picks for criticizing officiating? Obviously the league felt the Broncos gained a competitive advantage or they wouldn't have tried to level it out by denying them the draft choices.

Different rules for different offenses. Same thing with the Merriman explanation- if he didn't knowingly take steroids, he's absolutely not a cheater, just a rule-breaker... it's just that the rule he happened to break carries stiffer consequences than other rules. Same thing with Denver- Denver wasn't a cheater, they were a rulebreaker.Let me ask you an honest question. If you *HONESTLY* believed that the league was of the opinion that Denver gained a competitive advantage by cheating the salary cap, do you really think that the league would have responded by stripping them of a 3rd round pick? I mean, truly, honestly, sincerely, do you really believe that the league would say "Wow, you cheated one of the fundamental rules of football and gained a competitive advantage, and you won the superbowl. Shame on you, give us back a 3rd round pick that you probably would have just used on Maurice Clarett, anyway"?

I 100%, absolutely, positively GUARANTEE you that if the league truly and honestly felt that Denver had maliciously cheated the salary cap for the purpose of gaining a competitive advantage, it would have been front-page news. Denver would have been stripped of its superbowl trophies, at the very least. It wouldn't have been a slap on the wrist (Denver doesn't like a lot of draft picks anyway- since they're so stocked, an abnormally low percentage of draft picks make the final roster). It wouldn't have been back-page news that most sports fans are even in the dark about. Think about the last sporting figures that actually maliciously cheated. You had guys stripped of olympic medals, college football programs barred from postseason play, baseball teams branded to live on forever in infamy. Bicyclists stripped of victories. If they really cheated, Denver would be on that list right now. Green Bay would be back-to-back superbowl champions, Atlanta would have a superbowl victory (and yet, still no back-to-back winning seasons), and Dan Reeves would be a sure-fire Hall of Famer.

Yes, it's true that Denver was punished. It's also true that Shawne Merriman is getting punished, whether he cheated or not. That's the penalty for breaking rules, even in minor ways, even with benign intentions. That doesn't mean you cheated, though.

Off the top of my head, I'd also say he's one of the least sacked qb's in the league. Can anybody pull up the stats on that?

Way ahead of you...

Here's a *FACT* for you- Indy's line has ranked 7th, 1st, 1st, and now 2nd in Adjusted Line Yards (counts all runs of 10+ yards as just 10 yards and then calculates the average per-carry of the runningbacks). That stat is designed to determine how big of an influence the line is having on an RB's success (since the difference between a 20 yard run and a 90 yard run typically has nothing to do with the OL and everything to do with the WRs and RB). You can say that that's all Edgerrin James, but this year James is in Arizona, and Indy ranks 2nd in adjusted line yards while Arizona is 31st (they were 32nd last year). Edgerrin James going from Indy to Arizona has dropped Indy's adjusted line yards one rank, and raised Arizona's adjusted line yards one rank. Indy also always scores among the bottom 3 teams in the league in terms of total yards that come 10+ yards beyond the line of scrimmage- again, the hallmark of a team with ridiculously good run blocking.

As far as pass blocking goes, Indy's line has ranked 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, and 3rd in the past 5 years in Adjusted Sack Rate (which measures sacks per pass attempt and then adjusts for the quality of the passrush faced). In other words, Indy's offensive line, in addition to being a stellar run-blocking crew, is also one of the top-3 pass-blocking lines in the business. If you watched the Denver game last week, you'd see that not once during the entire second half did a Denver defender get within 3 feet of Peyton Manning before he threw the ball (and he routinely held it for 5 seconds before unloading).

Manning's offensive line is RIDICULOUS- easily one of the top-5 units in the league- and has been for about 4 years now.

 

[Billy Bats]

Peyton will win one before he retires...

Nah, he chokes too much.

 

[Despyzer]

If you *HONESTLY* believed that the league was of the opinion that Denver gained a competitive advantage by cheating the salary cap, do you really think that the league would have responded by stripping them of a 3rd round pick?

Do you *HONESTLY* believe that if the Broncos did no wrong they would have forfeited a draft pick and been fined one million dollars? The reason that the penalty was not harsher was because the CBA that established the salary cap contained language regarding penalties for failure to comply. Forfeiture of games or titles was not among them.

 

[JuniorNB]

Off the top of my head, I'd also say he's one of the least sacked qb's in the league. Can anybody pull up the stats on that?

Of course he is. Indy's line is custom built for pass blocking. To say he's played behind a poor, or even average, o-line is a BS excuse for Manning never winning a championship.It was always his defense that was supposed to be keeping him down, then, last year, they were the number two defense in the league.Manning is out of excuses now. He needs to produce a championship, or his supporters must admit that he's simply the best regular season QB of all-time.

 

[nygiants56]

Off the top of my head, I'd also say he's one of the least sacked qb's in the league. Can anybody pull up the stats on that?

Of course he is. Indy's line is custom built for pass blocking. To say he's played behind a poor, or even average, o-line is a BS excuse for Manning never winning a championship.It was always his defense that was supposed to be keeping him down, then, last year, they were the number two defense in the league.Manning is out of excuses now. He needs to produce a championship, or his supporters must admit that he's simply the best regular season QB of all-time.

Manning is <= Dan Fouts.nothing more, nothing less..a great stats QB, who never played in a SB. the guy has never won a championship at ANY level of play, HS,College, Pros.probably never won in pop warner, either. He's simply NOT in the same category as Kelly, Marino, Elway, Aikman, Young..Heck, I wouldn't even lump him in with Phil Simms, a guy who not only won 2 SB's, but engineered one of the greatest SB performances of all-time, for a QB..

 

[Stinger Ray]

To suggest that Manning has not been surrounded by the weapons to win a SB is absolutely ridiculous.

To think that any QB could have led the Colts to a Super Bowl is beyond stupid.

 

[thesurfshop19]

If you *HONESTLY* believed that the league was of the opinion that Denver gained a competitive advantage by cheating the salary cap, do you really think that the league would have responded by stripping them of a 3rd round pick?

Do you *HONESTLY* believe that if the Broncos did no wrong they would have forfeited a draft pick and been fined one million dollars? The reason that the penalty was not harsher was because the CBA that established the salary cap contained language regarding penalties for failure to comply. Forfeiture of games or titles was not among them.

I know I wasn't asked to weigh in on this, but it seems to me that these were minor cap-related violations that did not result in a competitive advantage on the field. In other words, the Broncos were never paying players under the table and therefore over the cap, so they weren't explicitly gaining a competitive advantage (unless the deferred money was *hush hush* paid with 100% interest or something).That said, there were violations, and that's enough to require some punitive damages to send a message that even minor violations aren't tolerated.

Bottom line -- Denver didn't explicitly cheat, but they did break rules that are related to major cheating. Don't come close again.

 

[thesurfshop19]

As for the original topic (apologies for contributing to the hijack!), Peyton does strike me as an unbelievable surgeon on the field but I strongly feel, and have always felt, that Tom Brady is a better QB at the end of the day.

I'm not going to go the "clutch" route -- Vanderjagt vs. Vinatieri is responsible for a major part of the discrepancy in their records. But I think Brady does more with equal, and does equal with less.

 

[JuniorNB]

To me, Manning is like Alex Rodriguez.

Like ARod, Manning knows that he has a choker's reputation. Deserved or undeserved, it's out there.

Therefore, when a big game is upon him, he presses. He not only wants to win the game, but he also wants to prove his critics wrong. Now, he's thinking about more than just a football game. That's why he comes up short year after year. It's in his head now.

Same with ARod. If he doesn't get a hit in his first at bat of his first playoff game, he's cooked for the series.

 

[MLBrandow]

Solid O-line + solid defense + average skill players will get you a SB before Pedestrian O-line + pedestrian defense + Awesome skill players.

This is about the only logic I agree with in this thread so far.

 

[Slum Lord]

Amazing how much clearly better a QB Peyton is than Elway was, or Aikman was.. yet they had .. for whatever reason a better ball bounce... a better RB to show up... a better defense.. moreover a better coach (in Rat and Jimmy J).. but you'll already get into the hall. They'll try to knock you down like Marino, and all the haters will try to discount you, because you dont' have a ring,.... but what you really didn't have was a 2,000 yd RB.... like the 'loser' Elway had before.... Elway couldn't complete the job circa the Niner blowout until he inherited TD.. Aikman had the ALL TIME RUSHING LEADER and a superb line and HOF WR... you've made an otherwise pedestrian Marvin a HOFer... but they'll say you inherited he. No worries. You'll get an LJ someday, like Elway did, or join some shop that is superb top-to-bottom, and then, and only then, will they not take from you, mate.

Somewhere a village is missing thier idiot.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Manning will go down as the quarterback surrounded with the best offensive weapons who never won anything.Yeah, his numbers will be so gaudy that he'll end up in the HOF, but whenever anyone thinks of him, they'll always remember that he was a regular season quarterback only.

There was obvious sarcasm in the original post, but what people forget is that defense and special teams play a hugs role in winning games. They play more combined than the offense. Manning is definitely a better QB than Aikman and many others. getting the ring should NOT be what people rate guys on as that is more to do with the team around them. Manning has had excellent weapons around him on offense though. Imagine Marino with a guy like Edge who could run and catch and block? Both Manning and Marino were not blessed with great defenses. the one year Miami's defense was decent, he got to the SB only to see that great defense allow SF to go down and score 14 point before Marino got a sniff of action.Elway got his rings when he had the leading rusher in football. Elway was a guy who was inaccurate early in his career but then was better as he matured. he was compared to Cunningham for a long time. Bradshaw had a ton of rings, but was not better than any of the guys we just mentioned. Steve Young and Montana were pretty awesome as well but had great defenses and great weapons. Young's numbers are pretty sick. I really didn't see Unitas to make a judgment on him.Marino (Give him some defense and he would win many rings)MontanaYoungElwayAikmanUnitas could go in there somewhere

 

[AnonymousBob]

This thread is making my head hurt.