Jackie Robinson West stripped of LLWS championship (1 Viewer)

[Todem]

Meh, not the best ball played at this age. The boys would be hammered by a competitive team. This happens all the time, in all sports. Trophy hunting teams, parents and kids. No way these kids didn't know that they had illegal players on their team. Not really something new, and unless players, coaches, and teams get banned this will continue to happen.

And this is why I said before that LL needs to wake up and recognize that the landscape has changed. There are alternatives to LL that appeal to trophy chasers, and probably even appeal more because they have more freedom when putting their team together. When my son's team was at Cooperstown Dreams Park, one of the teams there was absolutely wiping out every team they faced, scoring over 20 runs per game, with the 'slaughter rule' in effect, they even went over 40 runs at least once. I never confirmed any of the rumors about that team, but there was a lot of gossip about them, like when the coach picked players, he only took the kid if both parents were above average in height, and kids were being flown in specifically for the playoff rounds to pitch one game. To me, that's got to be the over the top epitome of a trophy chaser. Here's the other thing about that team: they didn't just play at that one venue, they played in tournaments across the southeast, so no only do these teams exist, they also have plenty of other places to play besides Williamsport, and if someone figures out a way to get games between such 'superteams' on television on a regular basis, they would have a superior product than LL. I can't quite see it yet, but I feel like it's out there.

Bryce Harper was one of those trophy chasing kids. He was flown around the country on the teams dime to play in tournaments.

It's insanity what is going on in youth sports today. Just insanity.

My kid loves baseball. And I love teaching him valuable life lessons while teaching him how to win gracefully and lose with dignity. But some of these super team coaches and parents are a disgrace. I will never stoop to that level. If my kid becomes a special player when he hit's his teen years and I can take him to an Under Armor showcase or the Pro Ball Showcase (I should only be so blessed that could happen) I will. But I will never whore my son out to Super Travel teams.

Screw that. Wrong lessons.

 

[roadkill1292]

What's going on in sports involving kids who aren't even 10 yet is like seeing life on a different planet for me.

 

[jon_mx]

If I had to summarize an order of how people should be viewing this situation it would be:

1st - Be absolutely disgusted with and hold accountable the adults responsible for this mess

2nd - Be absolutely disgusted with Jesse Jackson, Rahm Emmanuel and the other self-serving cynical folks exploiting this issue and using the race angle

3rd - Sympathy for the little league kids in NV, RI and other places that loss to JRW

4th - Sympathy for the little league kids in JRW

Do we know that all the teams that lost to JRW didn't have their own set of ringers?

We need to start testing those snotty-nosed kids for steroids.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Meh, not the best ball played at this age. The boys would be hammered by a competitive team. This happens all the time, in all sports. Trophy hunting teams, parents and kids. No way these kids didn't know that they had illegal players on their team. Not really something new, and unless players, coaches, and teams get banned this will continue to happen.

And this is why I said before that LL needs to wake up and recognize that the landscape has changed. There are alternatives to LL that appeal to trophy chasers, and probably even appeal more because they have more freedom when putting their team together. When my son's team was at Cooperstown Dreams Park, one of the teams there was absolutely wiping out every team they faced, scoring over 20 runs per game, with the 'slaughter rule' in effect, they even went over 40 runs at least once. I never confirmed any of the rumors about that team, but there was a lot of gossip about them, like when the coach picked players, he only took the kid if both parents were above average in height, and kids were being flown in specifically for the playoff rounds to pitch one game. To me, that's got to be the over the top epitome of a trophy chaser. Here's the other thing about that team: they didn't just play at that one venue, they played in tournaments across the southeast, so no only do these teams exist, they also have plenty of other places to play besides Williamsport, and if someone figures out a way to get games between such 'superteams' on television on a regular basis, they would have a superior product than LL. I can't quite see it yet, but I feel like it's out there.

But the "trophy chasing" teams/parents/coaches/kids aren't who LL is catering to. I don't think LL had ever declared their teams the best in the world. It's pretty apparent that any self-respecting travel team would grease these LL teams. So what? That's not the goal of LL. I'm not saying it's "noble" or anything like that, just pointing out that LL doesn't want the whole "ringer" mentality in their organization. That necessarily means that the level of play might be lower, but that's just the trade off.

 

[Todem]

Meh, not the best ball played at this age. The boys would be hammered by a competitive team. This happens all the time, in all sports. Trophy hunting teams, parents and kids. No way these kids didn't know that they had illegal players on their team. Not really something new, and unless players, coaches, and teams get banned this will continue to happen.

And this is why I said before that LL needs to wake up and recognize that the landscape has changed. There are alternatives to LL that appeal to trophy chasers, and probably even appeal more because they have more freedom when putting their team together. When my son's team was at Cooperstown Dreams Park, one of the teams there was absolutely wiping out every team they faced, scoring over 20 runs per game, with the 'slaughter rule' in effect, they even went over 40 runs at least once. I never confirmed any of the rumors about that team, but there was a lot of gossip about them, like when the coach picked players, he only took the kid if both parents were above average in height, and kids were being flown in specifically for the playoff rounds to pitch one game. To me, that's got to be the over the top epitome of a trophy chaser. Here's the other thing about that team: they didn't just play at that one venue, they played in tournaments across the southeast, so no only do these teams exist, they also have plenty of other places to play besides Williamsport, and if someone figures out a way to get games between such 'superteams' on television on a regular basis, they would have a superior product than LL. I can't quite see it yet, but I feel like it's out there.

But the "trophy chasing" teams/parents/coaches/kids aren't who LL is catering to. I don't think LL had ever declared their teams the best in the world. It's pretty apparent that any self-respecting travel team would grease these LL teams. So what? That's not the goal of LL. I'm not saying it's "noble" or anything like that, just pointing out that LL doesn't want the whole "ringer" mentality in their organization. That necessarily means that the level of play might be lower, but that's just the trade off.

At 12/13 a lot of travel players also play LL. At that point the shake out of kids who are not competent baseball players has been just about complete. Where as under 12 you still have plenty of participant (Rec ball for lack of a better term) players with all over the chart skill levels.

So LL does have ringer travel players in their leagues playing and chasing the LLWS dream.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

And this is why I said before that LL needs to wake up and recognize that the landscape has changed. There are alternatives to LL that appeal to trophy chasers, and probably even appeal more because they have more freedom when putting their team together. When my son's team was at Cooperstown Dreams Park, one of the teams there was absolutely wiping out every team they faced, scoring over 20 runs per game, with the 'slaughter rule' in effect, they even went over 40 runs at least once. I never confirmed any of the rumors about that team, but there was a lot of gossip about them, like when the coach picked players, he only took the kid if both parents were above average in height, and kids were being flown in specifically for the playoff rounds to pitch one game. To me, that's got to be the over the top epitome of a trophy chaser. Here's the other thing about that team: they didn't just play at that one venue, they played in tournaments across the southeast, so no only do these teams exist, they also have plenty of other places to play besides Williamsport, and if someone figures out a way to get games between such 'superteams' on television on a regular basis, they would have a superior product than LL. I can't quite see it yet, but I feel like it's out there.But the "trophy chasing" teams/parents/coaches/kids aren't who LL is catering to. I don't think LL had ever declared their teams the best in the world. It's pretty apparent that any self-respecting travel team would grease these LL teams. So what? That's not the goal of LL. I'm not saying it's "noble" or anything like that, just pointing out that LL doesn't want the whole "ringer" mentality in their organization. That necessarily means that the level of play might be lower, but that's just the trade off.

That's a very good point, but at the same time, that's also exactly what makes LL more appealing to trophy chasers. Some parents/coaches don't care that their kids won't be facing 'top' competition, and even may seek out situations where their kid has an even greater chance of 'success', and with the LLWS being on TV, that makes it even more appealing to trophy chasers; I'm sure the chance for their kid to be on TV just ups the ante.

I belive there's a reason that LL has existed and thrived as long as it has, even in the face of the perennial cheaters and growing number of alternatives; it retains a certain level of 'purity' and ensures involvement of every kid on the team. It's still pretty much what youth sports should be, and sadly that's why they'll always have to contend with cheaters and trophy chasers.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

On my phone and can't figure out how to quote both of the last 2 posts at the same time.

My point was that LL doesn't need to change as some have suggested. Their model is to have "neighborhood" teams. Assuming folks play by the rules, that's what they generally create. They have defined boundaries for each league that are pretty small in most decently populated areas. Unless a travel team limits itself to a relatively small area -- and no self-respecting travel team of 12 year olds does that -- then the travel team will produce a better product on the diamond. Additionally, the kids on that travel team are teammates all season long, from the very 1st practice of the season. These LL teams are All Star teams from their respective leagues, not teams who started the season out playing together. To be sure, some leagues will stack a single team at the outset, but that's an imperfect science at best.

At the end of the day, LL has a goal that is different than the travel team goal. The fact that some idiotic adults in desperate need of therapy break those rules shouldn't spur LL to change them. I applaud LL for yanking the title. Yeah the kids were perhaps collateral damage, but that is collateral damage caused by the actions of the lying cheaters not LL.

A little off-topic, but Stephen King wrote a wonderful short story (more of a narrative actually) about his son's little league team in 1989. They won the Maine state title and ultimately lost to Trimble, CT. It's called "Head Down". Well worth the read. It's really an outstanding piece of non-fiction. Probably a tad sappy, but he did a nice job of recognizing and conveying the relationships and personalities during a pretty remarkable little run.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

On my phone and can't figure out how to quote both of the last 2 posts at the same time.

My point was that LL doesn't need to change as some have suggested. Their model is to have "neighborhood" teams. Assuming folks play by the rules, that's what they generally create. They have defined boundaries for each league that are pretty small in most decently populated areas. Unless a travel team limits itself to a relatively small area -- and no self-respecting travel team of 12 year olds does that -- then the travel team will produce a better product on the diamond. Additionally, the kids on that travel team are teammates all season long, from the very 1st practice of the season. These LL teams are All Star teams from their respective leagues, not teams who started the season out playing together. To be sure, some leagues will stack a single team at the outset, but that's an imperfect science at best.

At the end of the day, LL has a goal that is different than the travel team goal. The fact that some idiotic adults in desperate need of therapy break those rules shouldn't spur LL to change them. I applaud LL for yanking the title. Yeah the kids were perhaps collateral damage, but that is collateral damage caused by the actions of the lying cheaters not LL.

A little off-topic, but Stephen King wrote a wonderful short story (more of a narrative actually) about his son's little league team in 1989. They won the Maine state title and ultimately lost to Trimble, CT. It's called "Head Down". Well worth the read. It's really an outstanding piece of non-fiction. Probably a tad sappy, but he did a nice job of recognizing and conveying the relationships and personalities during a pretty remarkable little run.

I guess 'change' is too strong of a term here. To me it just comes down to that because the LLWS is the highest profile event in youth sports, and there will always be coaches/parents who try to stack the deck in their favor, I just want to see LL officials get ahead of the curve. I'm sure that statiscially they're probably catching a lot more violators than get through, it just looks extra bad for them when they miss one this big.

Thanks for the tip about the Stephen King story, I'll look for it.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

On my phone and can't figure out how to quote both of the last 2 posts at the same time.

My point was that LL doesn't need to change as some have suggested. Their model is to have "neighborhood" teams. Assuming folks play by the rules, that's what they generally create. They have defined boundaries for each league that are pretty small in most decently populated areas. Unless a travel team limits itself to a relatively small area -- and no self-respecting travel team of 12 year olds does that -- then the travel team will produce a better product on the diamond. Additionally, the kids on that travel team are teammates all season long, from the very 1st practice of the season. These LL teams are All Star teams from their respective leagues, not teams who started the season out playing together. To be sure, some leagues will stack a single team at the outset, but that's an imperfect science at best.

At the end of the day, LL has a goal that is different than the travel team goal. The fact that some idiotic adults in desperate need of therapy break those rules shouldn't spur LL to change them. I applaud LL for yanking the title. Yeah the kids were perhaps collateral damage, but that is collateral damage caused by the actions of the lying cheaters not LL.

A little off-topic, but Stephen King wrote a wonderful short story (more of a narrative actually) about his son's little league team in 1989. They won the Maine state title and ultimately lost to Trimble, CT. It's called "Head Down". Well worth the read. It's really an outstanding piece of non-fiction. Probably a tad sappy, but he did a nice job of recognizing and conveying the relationships and personalities during a pretty remarkable little run.

I guess 'change' is too strong of a term here. To me it just comes down to that because the LLWS is the highest profile event in youth sports, and there will always be coaches/parents who try to stack the deck in their favor, I just want to see LL officials get ahead of the curve. I'm sure that statiscially they're probably catching a lot more violators than get through, it just looks extra bad for them when they miss one this big.Thanks for the tip about the Stephen King story, I'll look for it.

I think it ran in The New Yorker originally then was included in one of his short story collections (I think "Nightmares and Dreamscapes", but that may be way wrong). Even if you don't like King's fiction it's worth a read if you like baseball at all.

I'm not sure what LL can do beyond relying on a modicum of integrity from SOMEONE in the chain. This particular situation seems to have involved a pretty elaborate scheme and quite a few people up and down the letterhead.

 

[Da Guru]

Did anybody else catch the press conference earlier? Just when you think Jesse Jackson couldn't possibly be a bigger piece of ####.

Jackson just does not get it anymore.

 

[Todem]

On my phone and can't figure out how to quote both of the last 2 posts at the same time.

My point was that LL doesn't need to change as some have suggested. Their model is to have "neighborhood" teams. Assuming folks play by the rules, that's what they generally create. They have defined boundaries for each league that are pretty small in most decently populated areas. Unless a travel team limits itself to a relatively small area -- and no self-respecting travel team of 12 year olds does that -- then the travel team will produce a better product on the diamond. Additionally, the kids on that travel team are teammates all season long, from the very 1st practice of the season. These LL teams are All Star teams from their respective leagues, not teams who started the season out playing together. To be sure, some leagues will stack a single team at the outset, but that's an imperfect science at best.

At the end of the day, LL has a goal that is different than the travel team goal. The fact that some idiotic adults in desperate need of therapy break those rules shouldn't spur LL to change them. I applaud LL for yanking the title. Yeah the kids were perhaps collateral damage, but that is collateral damage caused by the actions of the lying cheaters not LL.

A little off-topic, but Stephen King wrote a wonderful short story (more of a narrative actually) about his son's little league team in 1989. They won the Maine state title and ultimately lost to Trimble, CT. It's called "Head Down". Well worth the read. It's really an outstanding piece of non-fiction. Probably a tad sappy, but he did a nice job of recognizing and conveying the relationships and personalities during a pretty remarkable little run.

Agreed. LL had no choice but to strip the title from that program. The adults in charge to run it, defrauded an entire nation of LL teams en route to a title by breaking clearly stated rules.

It's disgraceful.

What is also now disgraceful is the cries of Jackie Robinson West's parents that the whistle blower rival program are racist/racially motivated. If the team was all white....they still blow the whistle. Get over yourselves. It's embarrassing.