Jacksonville fake punt a defensive TD? (4 Viewers)

[Cobbler1]

That’s an offensive play because the punter came out with the offensive unit.

Just like ST gets the play if the ST unit is on the field.

this is consistent. 

how about this: ST runs the fake FG. Dude runs and fumbles it; the ST until on the other side recovers and takes it back for a TD.  Is that a ST TD?  Of course it is.

because the ST unit is on the field. That’s the personal package, which is the only thing that defines this. 

the nature of the play run is irrelevant to the unit performing it in determining who gets the points. 

Would you give -2 to the D/ST that fumbled? Or to the individual who fumbled here?

 

[Cobbler1]

Because it COULD happen. And scoring must be consistent in all cases.

You are going to come around, I know it. You are on the verge.

Lol, I can guarantee you he won’t come around. He will never admit he is wrong.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's a defensive TD because the defense is on the field.

Correct. The TD is awarded to the D/ST for a blocked FG, a KR, PR TD. The points don’t go to say, Devin Hester for taking it back for a TD (outside of IDP leagues) because Hester is part of the D/ST at that point. 

just like on a fake FG or punt, the D/ST is the unit executing the fake so they should be awarded the points.

i’m thankful that my dynasty league doesn’t have D/ST & my main league is IDP so I never have to deal with any of this.

y’all enjoy debating the 3-year old question. I’ve said all i have to say in here. To me it seems obvious that if the ST unit is on the field, whatever happens next is something the ST unit did, and thus the ST unit should be awarded the points for it. 

you’re welcome to disagree - I won’t passive aggressively trash you for your opinion like some here do. They’re just like; our opinions, maaaan. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Lol, I can guarantee you he won’t come around. He will never admit he is wrong.

Because I don’t believe I’m wrong. Just like you clearly believe yourself to be correct, so I could probably guarantee that you won’t “come around” either, right?  

 

[CalBear]

That’s an offensive play because the punter came out with the offensive unit.

Just like ST gets the play if the ST unit is on the field.

this is consistent. 

OK, someone on the other team receives the Cousins 3rd-down punt and runs it back for a TD. How do you score that?

 

[Lion to myself]

I don’t see that ever happening so it’s a weird premise. 

If you have never seen this done here is a link to QBs punting:

https://youtu.be/Y8TAplQtspM

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Would you give -2 to the D/ST that fumbled? Or to the individual who fumbled here?

That actually came up back when I played in an D/ST league. We didn’t award the -2 to anyone because it was a D/ST fumble and there was no setting for it. If there was a setting we would have awarded the -2 to the D/ST.

now we play IDP and the dude who fumbled gets the -2. 

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

huh, you all make some great points. this isn't as black and white as i initially thought. along the lines of CalBear's post above, if the offense is on the field to start the play to look like they're going for it on fourth with the punter in as an eligible receiver or something, and then last second they punt it anyway. wouldn't the D/ST get credit for this punt if such a stat existed in your league?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

OK, someone on the other team receives the Cousins 3rd-down punt and runs it back for a TD. How do you score that?

That’s a PRTD. Pretty straightforward. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

If you have never seen this done here is a link to QBs punting:

https://youtu.be/Y8TAplQtspM

On 3rd down?

 

[CalBear]

That’s a PRTD. Pretty straightforward. 

So it's not a punt, but it's a punt return?

 

[Cobbler1]

That actually came up back when I played in an D/ST league. We didn’t award the -2 to anyone because it was a D/ST fumble and there was no setting for it. If there was a setting we would have awarded the -2 to the D/ST.

now we play IDP and the dude who fumbled gets the -2. 

There you go, thankfully the settings don’t support D/ST getting credit for offensive plays because that’s blatantly wrong.

 

[CalBear]

Doug Flutie comes out in offensive formation on a 2-point conversion and drop-kicks it for a point. XP or somehow an offensive play?

Someone blocks the drop kick. ST block?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

So it's not a punt, but it's a punt return?

You just said he punted on 3rd down. so how is that not a punt?

I still think it’s a silly premise. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Doug Flutie comes out in offensive formation on a 2-point conversion and drop-kicks it for a point. XP or somehow an offensive play?

Someone blocks the drop kick. ST block?

I’m legit lol’ing here.  

If it’s a 2PAT 8 believe that’s the offensive unit so it’s irrelevant to this discussion. 

it’s funny though.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

There you go, thankfully the settings don’t support D/ST getting credit for offensive plays because that’s blatantly wrong.

But it’s not an offensive play. It’s a dude on special teams fumbling. 

So the special teams unit committed a fumble. Pretty straightforward there too. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Everyone wants to make the ST unit into something else because of what they did. 

If you train a bear to tap dance, he can tap dance all day and be incredibly entertaining.

but he’s still a bear. 

 

 

[CalBear]

You just said he punted on 3rd down. so how is that not a punt?

I still think it’s a silly premise. 

It happens. Jared Goff did it a number of times at Cal.

If he punts, it's a ST play. If he doesn't punt, it's not. Pretty simple.

 

[CalBear]

I’m legit lol’ing here.  

If it’s a 2PAT 8 believe that’s the offensive unit so it’s irrelevant to this discussion. 

it’s funny though.  

It's not a 2PAT. It's a drop kick. It's still in the NFL rulebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfaavF1R3E

It doesn't matter that Flutie isn't a kicker. It doesn't matter that the unit on the field is offensive players. It matters that he kicked it, therefore he gets credit for a PAT, and if it's blocked, the ST gets credit for a block, and if the block gets run back for a defensive 2PT, the ST gets 2 points. Even though the "special teams unit" wasn't on the field.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It happens. Jared Goff did it a number of times at Cal.

If he punts, it's a ST play. If he doesn't punt, it's not. Pretty simple.

Ok, so it’s a ST play. It’s a punt. 

Flutie is then a special teams player, and your ST will get credited with a punt, however your league scores that.

Not sure how that’s relevant to this topic?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's not a 2PAT. It's a drop kick. It's still in the NFL rulebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfaavF1R3E

It doesn't matter that Flutie isn't a kicker. It doesn't matter that the unit on the field is offensive players. It matters that he kicked it, therefore he gets credit for a PAT, and if it's blocked, the ST gets credit for a block, and if the block gets run back for a defensive 2PT, the ST gets 2 points. Even though the "special teams unit" wasn't on the field.

lol - well I guess it’s good that Flutie retired then because you’d have a heck of a time figuring out the scoring for this one.  
 

and if they came out for the 2PAT, that’s the offense. If they THEN did a drop kick PAT, it changed to ST. 

they didn’t come out as the ST unit. 

 

[kutta]

Everyone wants to make the ST unit into something else because of what they did. 

If you train a bear to tap dance, he can tap dance all day and be incredibly entertaining.

but he’s still a bear. 

Serious question here. I just want to clarify your position.

How do you define "Special Teams Unit?" We have given examples of a QB punting from an offensive formation (which does happen) and you say that's an offensive play because the offense is on the field.

How many "special teams" players have to be on the field for it to be considered a special teams play? Can it just be a change of a few offensive linemen? Do the WR's have to be replaced with backup WR's and act as gunners? 

 

[CalBear]

Ok, so it’s a ST play. It’s a punt. 

Flutie is then a special teams player, and your ST will get credited with a punt, however your league scores that.

Not sure how that’s relevant to this topic?

It's relevant because whether it's a "special teams play" is defined by what happens on the play, not by what personnel is on the field. Which is what everyone has been trying to get you to understand.

 

[Cobbler1]

But it’s not an offensive play. It’s a dude on special teams fumbling. 

So the special teams unit committed a fumble. Pretty straightforward there too. 

You’re the outlier here. You’re the one insisting that the formation determines which units are responsible meanwhile the scoring systems don’t even support what you think should happen re the bolded from your post. So everyone else is wrong but you’re right? That usually doesn’t work out too well. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's relevant because whether it's a "special teams play" is defined by what happens on the play, not by what personnel is on the field. Which is what everyone has been trying to get you to understand.

And yet I remain unconvinced by these ridiculous premises attempting to bend this into something it’s not.

the tap dancing bear is still a bear. The punting unit is part of ST. Whatever they did after that is still the ST unit doing it.

which is what I’ve been trying to get you to understand. 

we’ll have to agree to disagree. You see a tap dancer because that’s what the bear did. I see a bear. 

 

[kutta]

And yet I remain unconvinced by these ridiculous premises attempting to bend this into something it’s not.

the tap dancing bear is still a bear. The punting unit is part of ST. Whatever they did after that is still the ST unit doing it.

which is what I’ve been trying to get you to understand. 

we’ll have to agree to disagree. You see a tap dancer because that’s what the bear did. I see a bear. 

A fake punt, pass for a TD, is scored in the box score as a passing TD for whoever threw it, and a receiving TD for whoever caught it.

Do you go into your scores in your league and reverse those scores and credit the D/ST for that TD?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

You’re the outlier here. You’re the one insisting that the formation determines which units are responsible meanwhile the scoring systems don’t even support what you think should happen re the bolded from your post. So everyone else is wrong but you’re right? That usually doesn’t work out too well. 

No, I’m saying which unit was on the field when the fumble was committed. It shouldn’t go to the individual player who committed it but to the unit that was on the field. That’s entirely consistent with the fake Punt actually. 

Just because CBS doesn’t give fumbles to special teams doesn’t mean the special teams unit didn’t commit the fumble. That’s a false conclusion. Using a logical fallacy won’t convince me of anything. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Do you go into your scores in your league and reverse those scores and credit the D/ST for that TD?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a punter rostered in the history of my FF experience, so no, we’ve never had to do that. 

we have had a couple of QBs as holders who threw TDs after a fumble or on a designed fake and CBS gave them to the D/ST. 

 

[kutta]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a punter rostered in the history of my FF experience, so no, we’ve never had to do that. 

we have had a couple of QBs as holders who threw TDs after a fumble or on a designed fake and CBS gave them to the D/ST. 

OK. Here's something for you to chew on. I used an example of Cousins punting on third down earlier. Check out this link. Lot's of examples here.

Let's just talk about the first one. It's third down. The offense is on the field. Brady punts it. 

Are you saying that this is NOT a punt because the offense is on the field?

If the guy ran this back for a TD, how is it scored? It can't be a ST TD because special teams wasn't on the field, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvW-CS46gU

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

OK. Here's something for you to chew on. I used an example of Cousins punting on third down earlier. Check out this link. Lot's of examples here.

Let's just talk about the first one. It's third down. The offense is on the field. Brady punts it. 

Are you saying that this is NOT a punt because the offense is on the field?

If the guy ran this back for a TD, how is it scored? It can't be a ST TD because special teams wasn't on the field, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvW-CS46gU

I never said it wasn’t a punt.

The bear came out onto the field. The crowd fell into a hush, expecting the bear to maul someone. Instead, the bear punted. 

The bear was still a bear.

brady came out with the offense and performed a ST play of punting. The offensive until then changed to a ST unit.

ya know how when a QB throws a pick, all the offensive players suddenly become defensive players? Yeah - football is like that. Things change: 

So no, I’m not at all saying that it wasn’t a punt. It was absolutely a punt. I never implied it wasn’t. 

 

[Cobbler1]

No, I’m saying which unit was on the field when the fumble was committed. It shouldn’t go to the individual player who committed it but to the unit that was on the field. That’s entirely consistent with the fake Punt actually. 

Just because CBS doesn’t give fumbles to special teams doesn’t mean the special teams unit didn’t commit the fumble. That’s a false conclusion. Using a logical fallacy won’t convince me of anything. 

I’m in leagues on CBS, Yahoo, Espn, Sleeper, RTSports. None of them will allow a D/ST unit to lose points for a fumble. So again you are the outlier here against all logic and all scoring systems. And yes it’s consistent with the scoring on a fake punt but both would go to the individual not the D/ST. On a fake punt the individual does receive the credit like when Miles Boykin caught the 15 yard pass against the WFT. Boykin received 2.5 points ppr. Ravens D/ST did not receive 2.5 despite the unit being on the field. Are you saying in leagues you commished you would somehow take those points from Miles Boykin and give them to the Ravens D/ST? Even though there isn’t a scoring category fot receptions and receiving yards for them?

 

[acarey50]

whatever those units do while on the field is attributed to those units.  When Devn Hester returned kicks for TDs, he was part of the special teams unit. For years people who owned Hester in my leagues would argue until they were blue in the face that he should get that touchdown as an individual, but he wasn’t. He was a ST player and the points went to ST.

That's a scoring setting, not an indication of unit. In most of my leagues, even those with Team defense, we award individual players with return TDs (in a couple, it was set that both the individual returner and the team defense got those points, but that was less frequent)

In FF we score plays based on who’s on the field all the time. 

Disagree, we score based on the action that happens on the field.

 

[Cobbler1]

I never said it wasn’t a punt.

The bear came out onto the field. The crowd fell into a hush, expecting the bear to maul someone. Instead, the bear punter.

The bear was still a bear.

brady came out with the offense and performed a ST play of punting. The offensive until then changed to a ST unit.

ya know how when a QB throws a pick, all the offensive players suddenly become defensive players? Yeah - football is like that. Things change: 

So no, I’m not at all saying that it wasn’t a punt. It was absolutely a punt. I never implied it wasn’t. 

Lmao that’s in direct contradiction to your stance!!!! Brady came out with the Offense and performed a ST play therefore it is a special teams play you say. But when the ST comes out and performs an offensive play it’s still a ST play because that was the unit on the field according to you. GTFO with this man. You lost it’s over.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I’m in leagues on CBS, Yahoo, Espn, Sleeper, RTSports. None of them will allow a D/ST unit to lose points for a fumble. So again you are the outlier here against all logic and all scoring systems.

not at all. Again, they aren’t awarding the FL to the ST unit, but they *also* aren’t awarding it to the dude who fumbled while on ST.  If you have Devin Hester, and he scores a PRTD, you don’t get the points on offense, because Hester is playing on special teams.

right? Right. 

and if you have Devin Hester, and he fumbled on that PR, you ALSO do not get penalized with the FL. Because he’s on special teams.

Consisyency matters. Once again, your false conclusion fails to be logical. Just because they don’t deduct the FL from ST doesn’t prove your point. It only proves that none of those scoring systems award the negative points to ST play. 

And yes it’s consistent with the scoring on a fake punt but both would go to the individual not the D/ST. On a fake punt the individual does receive the credit like when Miles Boykin caught the 15 yard pass against the WFT. Boykin received 2.5 points ppr. Ravens D/ST did not receive 2.5 despite the unit being on the field. Are you saying in leagues you commished you would somehow take those points from Miles Boykin and give them to the Ravens D/ST? Even though there isn’t a scoring category fot receptions and receiving yards for them?

I don’t know the play you’re referring to so I can’t speak to it. Sorry. 

 

[Cobbler1]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a punter rostered in the history of my FF experience, so no, we’ve never had to do that. 

we have had a couple of QBs as holders who threw TDs after a fumble or on a designed fake and CBS gave them to the D/ST. 

This never happened 

 

[kutta]

I never said it wasn’t a punt.

The bear came out onto the field. The crowd fell into a hush, expecting the bear to maul someone. Instead, the bear punted. 

The bear was still a bear.

brady came out with the offense and performed a ST play of punting. The offensive until then changed to a ST unit.

ya know how when a QB throws a pick, all the offensive players suddenly become defensive players? Yeah - football is like that. Things change: 

So no, I’m not at all saying that it wasn’t a punt. It was absolutely a punt. I never implied it wasn’t. 

Now I'm confused.

I thought you said the type of play was determined by who was on the field?

If the offense is on the field and the QB punts, then it turns into a ST play, even though the ST unit wasn't in the game?

But if the punt team is on the field and the punter throws it, it isn't an offensive play?

Seems like you are trying to have it both ways here.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That's a scoring setting, not an indication of unit. In most of my leagues, even those with Team defense, we award individual players with return TDs (in a couple, it was set that both the individual returner and the team defense got those points, but that was less frequent)

CBS allows double dipping.

no league I have ever played in allows that.  
 

Like you said, that’s a league setting and more specifically a *league preference”. The default setting is a KR or PRTD goes to D/ST. 

The individual setting is generally used for IDP leagues. I’ve heard of leagues setting it up so both get the score, but I think that’s a ridiculous way to play. No judgement - your league can do as it likes, but that’s not what I’d consider standard scoring. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Now I'm confused.

I thought you said the type of play was determined by who was on the field?

If the offense is on the field and the QB punts, then it turns into a ST play, even though the ST unit wasn't in the game?

But if the punt team is on the field and the punter throws it, it isn't an offensive play?

Seems like you are trying to have it both ways here.

If the special teams unit comes out to punt and performs a fake it’s a ST play.

if Brady comes out to pass and punts it’s a punt. I honestly don’t know or care how that’s scored. It’s not analogue because there’s no scoring involved to determine so it’s irrelevant how we look at Brady punting the ball. 

An offensive play performed by the punter is still a special teams score. Because special teams did it. Yes, it was an offensive play. No, it wasn’t performed by the offense. 

Does it make perfect sense? Maybe not, but we’re talking shiny how it’s scored in fantasy football, so it doesn’t have to. 

 

[Truebluey]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a punter rostered in the history of my FF experience, so no, we’ve never had to do that. 

we have had a couple of QBs as holders who threw TDs after a fumble or on a designed fake and CBS gave them to the D/ST. 

Ugh, I wish you were the owner instead of me in a friend's league I joined this summer.

We do roster punters and I recently lost a close game because my punter scored a zero.

I have zero idea of how punters earn points in this scoring system.  I don't care to learn because I'm out of this league once the season ends.

But I'm pretty sure that if my punter threw for a TD I'd get some nice bonus points and I'd be dancing!  (Not tap dancing mind you).

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This never happened 

This is how it was scored. 

 

[Cobbler1]

not at all. Again, they aren’t awarding the FL to the ST unit, but they *also* aren’t awarding it to the dude who fumbled while on ST.  If you have Devin Hester, and he scores a PRTD, you don’t get the points on offense, because Hester is playing on special teams.

right? Right. 

and if you have Devin Hester, and he fumbled on that PR, you ALSO do not get penalized with the FL. Because he’s on special teams.

Consisyency matters. Once again, your false conclusion fails to be logical. Just because they don’t deduct the FL from ST doesn’t prove your point. It only proves that none of those scoring systems award the negative points to ST play. 

I don’t know the play you’re referring to so I can’t speak to it. Sorry. 

Address the bolded reference hypothetically then. Or tap out. Your call.

Diontae Johnson lost a fumble on a punt return earlier this year and most certainly did lose points as an individual. And the Steelers D/ST did not lose points.

In the Hester example most leagues would award the D/ST a td as well as Hester the individual. That’s a setting preference though. The example that started this isn’t a setting preferences it’s an intelligent test. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Ugh, I wish you were the owner instead of me in a friend's league I joined this summer.

We do roster punters and I recently lost a close game because my punter scored a zero.

I have zero idea of how punters earn points in this scoring system.  I don't care to learn because I'm out of this league once the season ends.

But I'm pretty sure that if my punter threw for a TD I'd get some nice bonus points and I'd be dancing!  (Not tap dancing mind you).

Wow. Now I’ve heard it all. Look at your league scoring and let me know how y’all score punters. I’m fascinated by this concept. Ray Guy, 1st round pick. 

 

[Cobbler1]

This is how it was scored. 

Nah that’s not true. Maybe in your league you changed the scoring manually but fake punts/fgs go to the individual when applicable. Not the unit.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Address the bolded reference hypothetically then. Or tap out. Your call.

or you could merely explain the play without being rude, since I didn’t see the play.  

Diontae Johnson lost a fumble on a punt return earlier this year and most certainly did lose points as an individual. And the Steelers D/ST did not lose points.

that’s a league scoring system setting. In my IDP league, DJ would lose 2 points.

in the league I played D/ST he would not have. 

In the Hester example most leagues would award the D/ST a td as well as Hester the individual. That’s a setting preference though. The example that started this isn’t a setting preferences it’s an intelligent test. 

Correct.

That’s a setting presence.

But now that the personal attacks have started, I’m out of this discussion. 

 

[kutta]

If the special teams unit comes out to punt and performs a fake it’s a ST play.

if Brady comes out to pass and punts it’s a punt. I honestly don’t know or care how that’s scored. It’s not analogue because there’s no scoring involved to determine so it’s irrelevant how we look at Brady punting the ball. 

An offensive play performed by the punter is still a special teams score. Because special teams did it. Yes, it was an offensive play. No, it wasn’t performed by the offense. 

Does it make perfect sense? Maybe not, but we’re talking shiny how it’s scored in fantasy football, so it doesn’t have to. 

Can you answer my question above then? How many ST teams players must be on the field to consider it a ST play? If they change out a couple offensive linemen, is that a ST play? If they just bring in the punter but keep the rest of the offense on the field, is that ST? What if the backup QB is also the punter (Tom Tupa)?

I think you are seeing the problem with your position on this. It just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

A special teams play starts when the ball is kicked. Period. It's simple and clear.

 

[Truebluey]

Wow. Now I’ve heard it all. Look at your league scoring and let me know how y’all score punters. I’m fascinated by this concept. Ray Guy, 1st round pick. 

OK damn you now you made me look and learn lol. I just hate the concept of rostering punters so much I didn't want to.

Here's the relevant info:

1 point for every Punt Attempt P

4 points for every 250 Punt Yard (0.02 per) K, P

2 points for every Punt Inside 20 K, P

2 points for every 50 Yards Per Punt points (0.04 per) P

5 points for every 60 Yards Per Punt points (0.08 per) QB, K, P

1 point for every Passing Completion QB, RB, WR, TE, K, P

1 point for every Rushing Attempt QB, RB, WR, TE, P

1 point for every Catch QB, RB, WR, TE, K, P

So I was wrong. He wouldn't get extra points for throwing a TD, just 1 point for completing a pass. Crazy. No wonder I hate this league.

 

[Cobbler1]

or you could merely explain the play without being rude, since I didn’t see the play.  

that’s a league scoring system setting. In my IDP league, DJ would lose 2 points.

in the league I played D/ST he would not have. 

Correct.

That’s a setting presence.

But now that the personal attacks have started, I’m out of this discussion. 

I’ve described the play multiple times. 4th and 9, Sam Koch from a punt formation throws a 15 yard pass to Miles Boykin. How would you score that?

Also I own Diontae Johnson in leagues on CBS Yahoo and ESPN. When he fumbled a punt week 1 he lost 2 points in all 3 leagues. The Steelers D/ST did not lose 2 points because that would be insane as well as not supported in the settings.

 

[CalBear]

I never said it wasn’t a punt.

The bear came out onto the field. The crowd fell into a hush, expecting the bear to maul someone. Instead, the bear punted. 

The bear was still a bear.

brady came out with the offense and performed a ST play of punting. The offensive until then changed to a ST unit.

ya know how when a QB throws a pick, all the offensive players suddenly become defensive players? Yeah - football is like that. Things change: 

So no, I’m not at all saying that it wasn’t a punt. It was absolutely a punt. I never implied it wasn’t. 

If the offensive unit can change to a ST unit, why can't the ST unit change to an offensive unit?

Maybe it has something to do with the kind of play they run?

 

[Steeler]

it’s not even debatable.

  Did you not read anything else in the thread? 

It's only debatable because people like you don't see the obvious answer  

 

[Wildcat]

No we definitely disagree because your stance is obviously wrong. They had possession of the ball they can do whatever the heck they want with it but until they give away possession they aren’t on Defense and that’s what D/ST scoring is for. You don’t get credit to your D/ST for a made fg. In your missed fg example that’s what happens- possession changed so the D/ST then gets the score. In the example in question possession never changed, it’s still an offensive play from a trick formation. I’m stunned that people disagree with this. 

I’m stunned as well. It’s like trying to argue against somebody that says water isn’t wet