Jermichael Finley (1 Viewer)

[meyerj31]

I'm also a little down on Finley due to his camp. I've noticed that in the past a lot of the guys on the fantasy upswing are stellar in camp. Last year gronk was "a man among boys" in the pats camp. There's usually indications somewhere along the line that someone is blowing up.

Finley's only big news out of camp was that he wasn't making any big news and still had some drop problems. I still like him a lot but I'm not going to draft him higher than the 6th round. There are plenty of quality options getting the same amount of targets available rounds later, like Gresham.

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

 

[FF Ninja]

You might want to, you know, actually look at the heights and weights of other TEs in the NFL before claiming 6'5" 250 is bigger than average for the position.

Yeah buddy! YOU might want to do just that. Hernandez 6'1"

Vernon 6' 3"

Gates 6' 4"

Daniels 6' 3"

Keller 6' 2"

Fred Davis 6' 4"

Tamme 6' 3"

Clark 6' 3"

Winslow 6' 4"

Moeaki 6' 3"

Pitta 6'4"

Kedricks 6' 3"

Sure, there are some guys out there at 6'5", like Finley, but he's clearly not anywhere close to average Joe.

If you want to hate on a guy, you might at least want to base it on something subjective or, you know, like, check the numbers before you make an #### out of your statement.

I don't really want to jump in the middle of this (I came here hoping to find some useful info) but it appears you intentionally ignored weight in an attempt to make a point. Fact is, almost all of these guys are bigger than Finley in the sense that they all weigh as much or more than him. 6'5" 250 isn't small, obviously 6'5" is a decent height for a TE, but he's definitely skinny for a TE (which is maybe why he's not a good blocker). So this post is really kind of a petty attempt to disprove a worthwhile point - Finley isn't all that special from a physical standpoint. I recall a couple years ago someone calling him the most freakish athlete at the position and someone else referencing Vernon Davis' combine stats vs. Finley's. It wasn't even close. It is almost comedic how quickly the SP labels guys as athletic when they put up some numbers. Yet another reason why the "eyeball" test is such a worthless metric.That being said, I'm intrigued by Finley. If I thought he'd see more targets this year then I'd be all about him. But 92 targets just isn't going to cut it. Gronk and Graham need way more than 100 targets to do what they do. Can anyone make a case that Finley will see at least 120 targets? He'll need more than eliminating his drops to become an elite FF TE. If GB does feature him more, which is not impossible, then sure, he could easily be a top 4 guy. It's not because he's got elite physical skills, though. It's because he's in a great system. I think a lot of other guys could do just as well in that spot. But for our fantasy purposes that doesn't matter. He's the GB TE in 2012. How many targets will he see?

I didn't list weights because this was such a ridiculous statement against Finley that I didn't want to put the time into listing weights that probably aren't accurate today or extend this discussion into 40 times, short shuttle times, targets, etc, etc,.the basis of the whole thing is it is ridiculous to talk about finley in a way that just ignores that his combination of size, speed, and ability is "average at best". You don't accidently finish top 10 two out of three years on a team that can easily make you one of 4 legit options by being average.

Your bolded part is really all that needs to be said to confirm that you, yourself, don't really think he's average. What you are saying is that he just doesn't get the opportunities. That's NOT an indictment of skill, that's an indictment of the system he plays in and the talent of his teammates...which is EXACTLY my point in the first post.

If the Packers used him as the same primary option as the Saints and Pats do, he would be dominant. Its akin to how people talk about Fitz. NOBODY says Fitz is an "average" talent. They mark him down because of his situation. Its the same with Finley. He's vying for targets against two top 10-15 WRs, a Wr that has been top 20 or so for 5+ years, and an electrifying young WR. There are just so manyballs to go around and the mentality is to spread it around. Yet, somehow a 6'5", 250 man that runs 4.65-4.75~, depending on which source you use, finishes top 10 the last two years he has been healthy and people call him average.

Sure you did. It probably had nothing to do with the fact that all of those guys you listed weigh just about as much if not more than him despite being shorter. It was a piss poor effort on your part. You put plenty of time in to dig up heights so don't tell me you couldn't have posted the weights that were listed right next to their heights. But honestly, this doesn't matter. I just have to call out petty B.S. when I see it. If you're going to refute a post that says Finley's height and weight are average for a TE then don't just post heights and say you are right. That is weak sauce. But again, that part is really just a silly argument to begin with. The real meat of this discussion is Finley's potential and talent so let's get into that...First of all, there is a difference between physically gifted/athletic and talent. I don't think you grasp that. It is pretty obvious to all non-delusional people who can read that Finley does not possess anything special in the athleticism category (via combine stats), but he's clearly talented (despite last year's drops). You don't have to have a 42" vertical or blazing speed if you play well in the system you are in. So long as he runs precise routes and has his timing down he's going to do well because Rodgers is arguably the best passer in the NFL today. When your QB is throwing 3 TD per game and over 9 ypa at nearly a 70% completion percentage, you don't have to be the most athletic guy to put up top 5 numbers at your position.

So what this all boils down to is, how many targets will he get this year? Including the all important red zone targets. In 2011, he saw 17 targets in the red zone which he converted to 11 catches and 8 TDs. Can we expect that many again? Personally, I think that number sounds pretty high, but he had 0 TDs from targets outside of the red zone. It is reasonalbe to expect him to convert a couple passes between the 20s into TDs in 2012. Can anyone come up with his stats on catches beyond 20 yards in the past few years? Maybe those were missing last year.

Bottom line, if the guy can decrease his drops and/or increase his catch %, just a slight bump in targets would be huge for him. If you count the playoffs, he only caught 58% of his targets coming from a QB that his on 68% of his passes. That is really bad. In 2009, he caught 76%.

If he sees 100 targets and catches just 68% while maintaining a 14.0 ypr, we're looking at 952 yds. Not Gronk/Graham numbers, but enough to put him in TE4 territory. If there is an unforseen shift and he gets 120 targets, catches 70%, then we're looking at 84/1176. I can't predict that jump in targets, but I wouldn't be shocked, either. Does anyone have any info on how's he's looking in camp? Is he dropping balls still? If he's still at 58% next year then I can't see his targets increasing and we're probably looking at another 55 catch year at best. If I was the OC, I couldn't justify targeting a guy who is (likely) team low in catch %. However, if he's back at 76% then I'd start to look to him more. I feel like drafting Finley is really rolling the dice this year. People here have really strong opinions about him, but no one should be confident one way or another.

 

[sho nuff]

First of all, there is a difference between physically gifted/athletic and talent. I don't think you grasp that. It is pretty obvious to all non-delusional people who can read that Finley does not possess anything special in the athleticism category (via combine stats), but he's clearly talented (despite last year's drops). You don't have to have a 42" vertical or blazing speed if you play well in the system you are in. So long as he runs precise routes and has his timing down he's going to do well because Rodgers is arguably the best passer in the NFL today. When your QB is throwing 3 TD per game and over 9 ypa at nearly a 70% completion percentage, you don't have to be the most athletic guy to put up top 5 numbers at your position.

Actually, its pretty obvious to non-delusional people that combine stats are not the end all be all for determining if a guy is gifted athletically.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

Come on man. Obviously the old green and gold goggling homer one game eyeball test outweighs every measurable number by which we can judge football ability.

Its not a homer call to show what the guy can do on the field...rather than just looking at combine stats as your argument.

I'm also looking at his actual production on the field, though. He's been the starting TE for three years in one of the best passing attacks in the NFL. Results?131 - 1744 - 14 over 34 games, which is 62 - 821 - 6.6 per 16 games. Not elite.

Dustin Keller went for 65 - 815 - 5 last year. Is he a stud TE?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

So you think his talent has dropped off that much in that time?

It's possible, he had injuries. If I remember correct he had two big receptions: 1) He outran a LB 2) Outjumped a CB...neither of those plays need an above average athlete when you're 6'5.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

 

[Shutout]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

Doesn't stop people form talking up chris Johnson. Wait. i know what comes next...CJ is a top 10 back every year at the end of the year. Well, Finley is a top 10 TE each year (of course was hurt 2 seasons ago so not that year).

In all seriousness; What's REALLY the point people are trying to make when they rip on Finley? What do people possibly gain from saying a guy is average or nothing special or "if he was here and that guy was there, then it would be like this"?

In the end, in the game of FF, he's a top 10 player that plays consistently week to week. In real life, if you watch the guy, you have to be blind or in denial to not notice his physical abilities. What's the point in clamoring something only to be proven wrong every year by the actual facts?

The real heartburn people have with finley (those that do) is that they act like a jilted lover. They just can't seem to accept that he didn't meet their lofty expectations. for some reason being a gifted top 10 athlete isn't good enough. He gets punished for not being Gronk.

Its a silly discussion all the way around. if you took the time to go down on a field and watch every TE in the league play on a Sunday, there is no way you would come back from that saying that Finley is average or isn't big or isn't fast, isn't talented, etc. People are just caught up in a FF scoring title and to them points at any given time=abiltiy. If Gronk was in Jacksonville, I guaratnee people wouldn't be calling him so talented. Instead of referring to his attributes as why he is so great, they would be referring to them as why he's too "this" or that" and why it doesn't fit...not based on attributes but based on the fact they couldn't start him with confidence in a fantasy lineup.

Some people around here act like everything happens in a vaccuum and life doesn't happen. There are NO contributing factors to anything. There are no ebbs and flows in a player's everyday life. If a guy drops 5 more passes than he did last year, he's obviously a loser now. ok. I guess nobody in here, in their glorious careers, has ever missed their sales quota for a quarter or lost a few cases in their trials or reviewed a fiscal year where the bottom line didn't meet objectives. You could have been CEO of the year for five consecutive years but the one year you did your usual productive job and a couple of guys happened to have CAREER sales numbers, it was suddenly YOUR talent that must have flatered. We couldn't possibly attribute it to another person's stellar performance for that one time.

I can't believe we are still talking about this. Cipher it any way you want, those of you that think he is average. Say it how you want, think it how you want, and we will come back next year with another top TE finish from finley and you can tell us all again how this guys is average. Average like Joe mays or Bradie James. You know; he's just another guy.

So criticize the CJ discussion but expand on the Finley discussion using the same logic - or half of the same logic as the closest Finley has come to a CJ type season was last year.Ive been pumped on Finley, im aware of what he can do, but ive also seen what he can do. The Packers have a highpower offense sure, but he was healthy last year and caught as many balls as he did 2 years previously. The difference being he had 130% of the targets he had 2 years prior. Ill pass this year.

I actually made that reference with you in mind. Keep in mind, I never said CJ was an average talent. I said I liked DMAC better of the two and that, overall, CJ is very inconsistent week to week. But my point with CJ has never been that he's just an average, run of the mill talent.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

Athletically:Better than Finley=Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, Gates, VD, J. Cook, F. Davis, Witten, Rudolph, Gresham, FleenerSame Tier as Finley: Pettigrew, Olsen, Gonzo, Keller, Celek, K. Davis, Winslow(if his knees were better he's in the class higher)

 

[Shutout]

First of all, there is a difference between physically gifted/athletic and talent. I don't think you grasp that. It is pretty obvious to all non-delusional people who can read that Finley does not possess anything special in the athleticism category (via combine stats), but he's clearly talented (despite last year's drops). You don't have to have a 42" vertical or blazing speed if you play well in the system you are in. So long as he runs precise routes and has his timing down he's going to do well because Rodgers is arguably the best passer in the NFL today. When your QB is throwing 3 TD per game and over 9 ypa at nearly a 70% completion percentage, you don't have to be the most athletic guy to put up top 5 numbers at your position.

Actually, its pretty obvious to non-delusional people that combine stats are not the end all be all for determining if a guy is gifted athletically.

Thank you. You just said in a few words what it probably would have taken me a paragraph to say. Much appreciated.

 

[Shutout]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

 

[Shutout]

You might want to, you know, actually look at the heights and weights of other TEs in the NFL before claiming 6'5" 250 is bigger than average for the position.

Yeah buddy! YOU might want to do just that. Hernandez 6'1"

Vernon 6' 3"

Gates 6' 4"

Daniels 6' 3"

Keller 6' 2"

Fred Davis 6' 4"

Tamme 6' 3"

Clark 6' 3"

Winslow 6' 4"

Moeaki 6' 3"

Pitta 6'4"

Kedricks 6' 3"

Sure, there are some guys out there at 6'5", like Finley, but he's clearly not anywhere close to average Joe.

If you want to hate on a guy, you might at least want to base it on something subjective or, you know, like, check the numbers before you make an #### out of your statement.

I don't really want to jump in the middle of this (I came here hoping to find some useful info) but it appears you intentionally ignored weight in an attempt to make a point. Fact is, almost all of these guys are bigger than Finley in the sense that they all weigh as much or more than him. 6'5" 250 isn't small, obviously 6'5" is a decent height for a TE, but he's definitely skinny for a TE (which is maybe why he's not a good blocker). So this post is really kind of a petty attempt to disprove a worthwhile point - Finley isn't all that special from a physical standpoint. I recall a couple years ago someone calling him the most freakish athlete at the position and someone else referencing Vernon Davis' combine stats vs. Finley's. It wasn't even close. It is almost comedic how quickly the SP labels guys as athletic when they put up some numbers. Yet another reason why the "eyeball" test is such a worthless metric.That being said, I'm intrigued by Finley. If I thought he'd see more targets this year then I'd be all about him. But 92 targets just isn't going to cut it. Gronk and Graham need way more than 100 targets to do what they do. Can anyone make a case that Finley will see at least 120 targets? He'll need more than eliminating his drops to become an elite FF TE. If GB does feature him more, which is not impossible, then sure, he could easily be a top 4 guy. It's not because he's got elite physical skills, though. It's because he's in a great system. I think a lot of other guys could do just as well in that spot. But for our fantasy purposes that doesn't matter. He's the GB TE in 2012. How many targets will he see?

I didn't list weights because this was such a ridiculous statement against Finley that I didn't want to put the time into listing weights that probably aren't accurate today or extend this discussion into 40 times, short shuttle times, targets, etc, etc,.the basis of the whole thing is it is ridiculous to talk about finley in a way that just ignores that his combination of size, speed, and ability is "average at best". You don't accidently finish top 10 two out of three years on a team that can easily make you one of 4 legit options by being average.

Your bolded part is really all that needs to be said to confirm that you, yourself, don't really think he's average. What you are saying is that he just doesn't get the opportunities. That's NOT an indictment of skill, that's an indictment of the system he plays in and the talent of his teammates...which is EXACTLY my point in the first post.

If the Packers used him as the same primary option as the Saints and Pats do, he would be dominant. Its akin to how people talk about Fitz. NOBODY says Fitz is an "average" talent. They mark him down because of his situation. Its the same with Finley. He's vying for targets against two top 10-15 WRs, a Wr that has been top 20 or so for 5+ years, and an electrifying young WR. There are just so manyballs to go around and the mentality is to spread it around. Yet, somehow a 6'5", 250 man that runs 4.65-4.75~, depending on which source you use, finishes top 10 the last two years he has been healthy and people call him average.

Sure you did. It probably had nothing to do with the fact that all of those guys you listed weigh just about as much if not more than him despite being shorter. It was a piss poor effort on your part. You put plenty of time in to dig up heights so don't tell me you couldn't have posted the weights that were listed right next to their heights. But honestly, this doesn't matter. I just have to call out petty B.S. when I see it. If you're going to refute a post that says Finley's height and weight are average for a TE then don't just post heights and say you are right. That is weak sauce. But again, that part is really just a silly argument to begin with. The real meat of this discussion is Finley's potential and talent so let's get into that...First of all, there is a difference between physically gifted/athletic and talent. I don't think you grasp that. It is pretty obvious to all non-delusional people who can read that Finley does not possess anything special in the athleticism category (via combine stats), but he's clearly talented (despite last year's drops). You don't have to have a 42" vertical or blazing speed if you play well in the system you are in. So long as he runs precise routes and has his timing down he's going to do well because Rodgers is arguably the best passer in the NFL today. When your QB is throwing 3 TD per game and over 9 ypa at nearly a 70% completion percentage, you don't have to be the most athletic guy to put up top 5 numbers at your position.

So what this all boils down to is, how many targets will he get this year? Including the all important red zone targets. In 2011, he saw 17 targets in the red zone which he converted to 11 catches and 8 TDs. Can we expect that many again? Personally, I think that number sounds pretty high, but he had 0 TDs from targets outside of the red zone. It is reasonalbe to expect him to convert a couple passes between the 20s into TDs in 2012. Can anyone come up with his stats on catches beyond 20 yards in the past few years? Maybe those were missing last year.

Bottom line, if the guy can decrease his drops and/or increase his catch %, just a slight bump in targets would be huge for him. If you count the playoffs, he only caught 58% of his targets coming from a QB that his on 68% of his passes. That is really bad. In 2009, he caught 76%.

If he sees 100 targets and catches just 68% while maintaining a 14.0 ypr, we're looking at 952 yds. Not Gronk/Graham numbers, but enough to put him in TE4 territory. If there is an unforseen shift and he gets 120 targets, catches 70%, then we're looking at 84/1176. I can't predict that jump in targets, but I wouldn't be shocked, either. Does anyone have any info on how's he's looking in camp? Is he dropping balls still? If he's still at 58% next year then I can't see his targets increasing and we're probably looking at another 55 catch year at best. If I was the OC, I couldn't justify targeting a guy who is (likely) team low in catch %. However, if he's back at 76% then I'd start to look to him more. I feel like drafting Finley is really rolling the dice this year. People here have really strong opinions about him, but no one should be confident one way or another.

Kind of assuming of you to THINK you know exactly what I was thinking and doing and exactly wrong, as I have already explained to you why I listed what I listed, if you took the time to read and then retain what I said. To satisfy your curiosity, however, I will expound. I went to web site and clicked "TE". I clicked on Height (because our friend said he was "average") and saw that, there are many VERY significant Fantasy TEs that have been relevant in the past few seasons that are actually not 6'5" and average to Finley. I listed that. As I already said once, I did NOT list weight because A)I really thought that this discussion was such obvious fluff for someone to call Finley average that I dodn't want to invest that much time into it (and I was also more interested in the discussions about the games last night) and B) because weights fluctuate a great deal and many are not accurate (I saw weights for Gates and Clark that have been the same listed weight for 8 years...highly unlikely).

So, my ninja friend, the effort was not "piss poor", it was concise and had integrity as it would have been both irrelevant and misleading to post a bunch of weights from when guys were in college.

If YOU want to take the time to pull every TE, pull their height, CURRENT weight, and any other info you want for them, be my guest but I will bet you anything you can stand to lose, that Finley does not fall in the median average of a comprehensive scale. There is NO way you can put all the physical traits and all the production numbers of all the TEs in the league and derive a number that will support that he is just a run of the mill joe. If you DID, then because of the FACT that he has finished as a top 10 TE in the last two years he has played healthy, it would indicate that he either had many PITIFUL years to drag that "average" down or he had an off the chart historic year to pull that average up. And we know that neither has occurred.

Like I said earlier in another post. Stop talking about it and just pass on the guy already if you want. By all means, feel free to come back and braq about it if he is healthy and plays and turns in a very middle-of-the-pack season. we will all be waiting for you and the other two or three guys that feel the way you do. but we won't be holding our breath.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

 

[sho nuff]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

Come on man. Obviously the old green and gold goggling homer one game eyeball test outweighs every measurable number by which we can judge football ability.

Its not a homer call to show what the guy can do on the field...rather than just looking at combine stats as your argument.

I'm also looking at his actual production on the field, though. He's been the starting TE for three years in one of the best passing attacks in the NFL. Results?131 - 1744 - 14 over 34 games, which is 62 - 821 - 6.6 per 16 games. Not elite.

Dustin Keller went for 65 - 815 - 5 last year. Is he a stud TE?

I said watch him play...not just look at stats.BTW...I am arguing he is not just average athletically.

And if you want just combine numbers...fine...but list them all, not just 40, vertical, and bench.

 

[sho nuff]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

So you think his talent has dropped off that much in that time?

It's possible, he had injuries. If I remember correct he had two big receptions: 1) He outran a LB 2) Outjumped a CB...neither of those plays need an above average athlete when you're 6'5.

So...basically, what he did 3 years ago in a game is not relevant...but combine numbers from then are.Physically I think he is stronger now than he was then. I trust what McCarthy and Rodgers have always stated about the guy (Rodgers was always gushing about his ability).

I think he is above average physically for a TE and some of the things he has shown on the field have proven that.

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

But again...just saying he is worse in a few measurables than 3 of the best...is not proving he is just average.Especially when you don't list all the combine numbers anyway.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

So you think his talent has dropped off that much in that time?

It's possible, he had injuries. If I remember correct he had two big receptions: 1) He outran a LB 2) Outjumped a CB...neither of those plays need an above average athlete when you're 6'5.

So...basically, what he did 3 years ago in a game is not relevant...but combine numbers from then are.Physically I think he is stronger now than he was then. I trust what McCarthy and Rodgers have always stated about the guy (Rodgers was always gushing about his ability).

I think he is above average physically for a TE and some of the things he has shown on the field have proven that.

1) I went back and watched highlights from that game. He caught two jump balls which he was matched up on smaller DBs, which he should do easily. Nothing overly athletic.2) I never said the combine is the be all, but it's a piece of the puzzle.

3) He's been injured and it's possible he's lost some athleticism.

4) I'm saying he's not top 10 athletically at TE, safe bet is 15...which is average.

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

Athletically:Better than Finley=Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, Gates, VD, J. Cook, F. Davis, Witten, Rudolph, Gresham, FleenerSame Tier as Finley: Pettigrew, Olsen, Gonzo, Keller, Celek, K. Davis, Winslow(if his knees were better he's in the class higher)

Davis, Graham, , Cook, yes...the rest...Hernandez...hard to say, only had the 40 time for him and it was 4.7...bit better, but not great either comparatively. His pro day numbers were similar to Finley's.Gates...maybe once, but not so much at this point. No real official times...but have heard it was nothing faster than 4.8 that Finley ran at the Combine from what Im gathering. A guy who is great on the field and shows his athleticism there rather in just measurables.Rudolph was a bit faster (similar to Finley's pro day numbers) but did not do the rest of the workouts at the Combine. But then ran a 4.78 and 4.8 at his own pro day.Witten...again, maybe once, not so much anymore. Only really have his 40 speed to go on at this point.Gresham's numbers are quite close to Finley's.That is just based again on these combine and pro day numbers.

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

 

[sho nuff]

1) I went back and watched highlights from that game. He caught two jump balls which he was matched up on smaller DBs, which he should do easily. Nothing overly athletic.2) I never said the combine is the be all, but it's a piece of the puzzle.3) He's been injured and it's possible he's lost some athleticism.4) I'm saying he's not top 10 athletically at TE, safe bet is 15...which is average.

1. He had 6 receptions for 159...he did more than catch two jump balls against smaller DBs.2. Seems our french buddy is putting almost his entire stock in 3 combine numbers (also forgetting others...)3. Possible...he has also been working more now than he did in college and could be increasing such things.4. I think he is top 10 athletically...I disagree with you there.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

Come on man. Obviously the old green and gold goggling homer one game eyeball test outweighs every measurable number by which we can judge football ability.

Its not a homer call to show what the guy can do on the field...rather than just looking at combine stats as your argument.

I'm also looking at his actual production on the field, though. He's been the starting TE for three years in one of the best passing attacks in the NFL. Results?131 - 1744 - 14 over 34 games, which is 62 - 821 - 6.6 per 16 games. Not elite.

Dustin Keller went for 65 - 815 - 5 last year. Is he a stud TE?

I said watch him play...not just look at stats.BTW...I am arguing he is not just average athletically.

And if you want just combine numbers...fine...but list them all, not just 40, vertical, and bench.

I have watched him play plenty. He was absolutely the weakest link in the GB passing game last year, according to my eyeball test. This is backed up absolutely by the numbers. Rodgers' completion percentage fell 11% when targeting Finley as opposed to any other player in Green and Gold. His yards per attempt fell by 1.12! That's awful any way you want to slice it, and really can't be explained away by "but Aaron Hernandez is shorter" or by looking at a tiny sample size from a long time ago.

 

[Shutout]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

Ok, I'll play you silly little game...One Time. then I'm done with this thread because its obvious no one's getting info from it, just entertainment at this point.Ok. Your statement, as stated yesterday and in this last post. His measureables are below average.

Ok. my info.

Start with the 32 starting TEs in the NFL. Exclude all the other bench players for simplicifaction based on the argument that he is average, I don't want to weaken your statment based on players that are not starting material.

Of those TES, I gave you a list of 12 starting TEs. I will remove Pitta and insert Dickson and call him the starter.

The average height of those 12 starting TEs is 6'3".

If you add Finley at 6'5", then in order for him to be an "average" height (not below like you said, just simply average), then the other 19 starting TEs in the NFL must all be just shy of 6'7". Show me the 19 other 6'7" TEs.

The answer is that the average starting TE in the NFL is 6'3". Finley is nearly 2" above that average.

Your turn. Post all the 40 times of all the starting TEs. Post exclusively their combine or pro-day tiems to keep it consistent, and show us all how below average Finley is.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

I'm on my phone so I'm certainly not going to do it now, but are you really saying that there aren't at least 10 - 15 guys currently in the NFL with better overall measurables (I'll gladly include to shuttle and three cone later if you want) than Jermichael Finley?

 

[Run It Up]

Your turn. Post all the 40 times of all the starting TEs. Post exclusively their combine or pro-day tiems to keep it consistent, and show us all how below average Finley is.

Hold on to your butt, im sure someone will. 2nd to last draft is today, happens to be a start two TE draft, im a lock to get Gronk by the time it gets back to me the best TEs available will be Davis and Finley (and Pettigrew/Tamme by my projections), I plan to take all 3 of them over Finley. This is based off my previous 3 years of owning him, in which he missed significant time and when he did play was lackluster to say the least.

 

[Shutout]

55/770/8 would be a "breakout candidate" on any other team. This may not seem as mind-blowing in the post mega-Gronk/Graham era, but 1,000/10 is easily achievable for Finley. He didn't even play that well in amassing last year's stats... although he was still double-covered fairly often for someone who "sucks" per previous posts.

Proof? Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Jones, Driver, Cobb, Finley...yeah i'm sure defenses wanted to take Finley out of the game.

There are times defenses have yes.I would not say he was being doubled that often.

But he has been a focus at points.

Mostly he and Jennings.

I expect Jordy will take on more of those double teams this year.

But teams don't like getting beat up the middle by TEs. LBs have trouble covering guys like Finley where as they feel a corner can handle Nelson (even after he toasts them).

And can people stop with this stuff that he is just average physically...quit looking at combine numbers and watch the guy on the field. Go back and watch that Arizona playoff game and tell me the guy catching those balls is just an average physical talent.

3 years ago

Come on man. Obviously the old green and gold goggling homer one game eyeball test outweighs every measurable number by which we can judge football ability.

Its not a homer call to show what the guy can do on the field...rather than just looking at combine stats as your argument.

I'm also looking at his actual production on the field, though. He's been the starting TE for three years in one of the best passing attacks in the NFL. Results?131 - 1744 - 14 over 34 games, which is 62 - 821 - 6.6 per 16 games. Not elite.

Dustin Keller went for 65 - 815 - 5 last year. Is he a stud TE?

I said watch him play...not just look at stats.BTW...I am arguing he is not just average athletically.

And if you want just combine numbers...fine...but list them all, not just 40, vertical, and bench.

I have watched him play plenty. He was absolutely the weakest link in the GB passing game last year, according to my eyeball test. This is backed up absolutely by the numbers. Rodgers' completion percentage fell 11% when targeting Finley as opposed to any other player in Green and Gold. His yards per attempt fell by 1.12! That's awful any way you want to slice it, and really can't be explained away by "but Aaron Hernandez is shorter" or by looking at a tiny sample size from a long time ago.

A stat based entirely dependent on a guy who dropped a few more balls than he mormally does. In other words, based on something atypical to the player. Did you know that as of 12/07/11 last year, Roddy White led the NFL in dropped passes with 11? I guess this means he is a below average player.

did you know that twice in his career, Jerry Rice had drop issues and ranked among the highest in the league at those times? certainly, he is not to be trusted and has no athleticism.

Your logic reminds me of those old math problems where you can prove that 2=1 if you just keep spinning it enough.

Do yourself a favor and watch the man play and try not to blame Finley for gas prices going up at the pumps.

I'm purposely going to ignore this thread for here on out. I appologize to the OP for it running away on a tangent. Hopefully it can get back to giving you some responses you were looking to discuss.

Overall, I think its clear, Finley is polarizing and people are just going to have their opinion.

Maybe we can come back to this later in the season and everyone can share how their decisions worked out for them.

 

[Run It Up]

Not really a fair point.

As the number of targets rise the number of drops rises (as does the number of receptions).

White is the most targetted WR in the NFL past 3 years if im not mistaken? Welker led the league in drops for more than a few weeks despite having caught 70% of everything thrown his way (well above average).

 

[GDogg]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

Athletically:Better than Finley=Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, Gates, VD, J. Cook, F. Davis, Witten, Rudolph, Gresham, FleenerSame Tier as Finley: Pettigrew, Olsen, Gonzo, Keller, Celek, K. Davis, Winslow(if his knees were better he's in the class higher)

Davis, Graham, , Cook, yes...the rest...Hernandez...hard to say, only had the 40 time for him and it was 4.7...bit better, but not great either comparatively. His pro day numbers were similar to Finley's.Gates...maybe once, but not so much at this point. No real official times...but have heard it was nothing faster than 4.8 that Finley ran at the Combine from what Im gathering. A guy who is great on the field and shows his athleticism there rather in just measurables.Rudolph was a bit faster (similar to Finley's pro day numbers) but did not do the rest of the workouts at the Combine. But then ran a 4.78 and 4.8 at his own pro day.Witten...again, maybe once, not so much anymore. Only really have his 40 speed to go on at this point.Gresham's numbers are quite close to Finley's.That is just based again on these combine and pro day numbers.

Marcedes Lewis is probably a better athlete than Finley. His 40 is about the same, but Marcedes posted a 37" vertical and was stronger than Finley (23 reps). It was a long time ago now, but he had D1 offers to play basketball coming out of HS and played one year of basketball at UCLA before focusing on football completely.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

Ok, I'll play you silly little game...One Time. then I'm done with this thread because its obvious no one's getting info from it, just entertainment at this point.Ok. Your statement, as stated yesterday and in this last post. His measureables are below average.

Ok. my info.

Start with the 32 starting TEs in the NFL. Exclude all the other bench players for simplicifaction based on the argument that he is average, I don't want to weaken your statment based on players that are not starting material.

Of those TES, I gave you a list of 12 starting TEs. I will remove Pitta and insert Dickson and call him the starter.

The average height of those 12 starting TEs is 6'3".

If you add Finley at 6'5", then in order for him to be an

"average" height (not below like you said, just simply average), then the other 19 starting TEs in the NFL must all be just shy of 6'7". Show me the 19 other 6'7" TEs.

The answer is that the average starting TE in the NFL is 6'3". Finley is nearly 2" above that average.

Your turn. Post all the 40 times of all the starting TEs.

Post exclusively their combine or pro-day tiems to keep it consistent, and show us all how below average Finley is.

Yeah, it's really not as much fun for me arguing semantics vs actual substance. Average height for a TE is probably 6'3" - 6'5". You win, the median might be a hair under 6'5" - congrats.You're still missing the big picture, which is that Finley's overall physical measurables match up pretty well with what he's produced thus far on the field - whether you want to call it average, solid, decent, whatever. The point is it's not anywhere remotely close to elite.

 

[sho nuff]

I have watched him play plenty. He was absolutely the weakest link in the GB passing game last year, according to my eyeball test. This is backed up absolutely by the numbers. Rodgers' completion percentage fell 11% when targeting Finley as opposed to any other player in Green and Gold. His yards per attempt fell by 1.12! That's awful any way you want to slice it, and really can't be explained away by "but Aaron Hernandez is shorter" or by looking at a tiny sample size from a long time ago.

Again, you are reading completion percentages and trying to equate that to athletics...but keep trying I guess.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

It's been fun watching you go from this:

Of all the TEs in the league, if there was 1 TE that has the physical ability to be unstoppable, outside the Double G dynamos, its Finley.

To "but he's an inch taller than the median TE height."

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

I'm on my phone so I'm certainly not going to do it now, but are you really saying that there aren't at least 10 - 15 guys currently in the NFL with better overall measurables (I'll gladly include to shuttle and three cone later if you want) than Jermichael Finley?

10-15 guys...sure. Though, there are more than 20-30 TEs in the league aren't there.Im saying he is better than average at TE in OVERALL measurables.

And even then...those are just numbers.

Watch all the guys play then again tell me he is just average athletically and you will be quite incorrect.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

I have watched him play plenty. He was absolutely the weakest link in the GB passing game last year, according to my eyeball test. This is backed up absolutely by the numbers. Rodgers' completion percentage fell 11% when targeting Finley as opposed to any other player in Green and Gold. His yards per attempt fell by 1.12! That's awful any way you want to slice it, and really can't be explained away by "but Aaron Hernandez is shorter" or by looking at a tiny sample size from a long time ago.

Again, you are reading completion percentages and trying to equate that to athletics...but keep trying I guess.

No I'm not. I'm saying the two sets of data are independent but appear to be consistent with "Finley is average."

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

Athletically:Better than Finley=Gronk, Graham, Hernandez, Gates, VD, J. Cook, F. Davis, Witten, Rudolph, Gresham, FleenerSame Tier as Finley: Pettigrew, Olsen, Gonzo, Keller, Celek, K. Davis, Winslow(if his knees were better he's in the class higher)

Davis, Graham, , Cook, yes...the rest...Hernandez...hard to say, only had the 40 time for him and it was 4.7...bit better, but not great either comparatively. His pro day numbers were similar to Finley's.Gates...maybe once, but not so much at this point. No real official times...but have heard it was nothing faster than 4.8 that Finley ran at the Combine from what Im gathering. A guy who is great on the field and shows his athleticism there rather in just measurables.Rudolph was a bit faster (similar to Finley's pro day numbers) but did not do the rest of the workouts at the Combine. But then ran a 4.78 and 4.8 at his own pro day.Witten...again, maybe once, not so much anymore. Only really have his 40 speed to go on at this point.Gresham's numbers are quite close to Finley's.That is just based again on these combine and pro day numbers.

Marcedes Lewis is probably a better athlete than Finley. His 40 is about the same, but Marcedes posted a 37" vertical and was stronger than Finley (23 reps). It was a long time ago now, but he had D1 offers to play basketball coming out of HS and played one year of basketball at UCLA before focusing on football completely.

Lewis was probably about equal at that point.Not sure on his 3 cone...Finley was better in the 20 yard shuttle.Reps are similar...vertical there was the difference you noted.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

I'm on my phone so I'm certainly not going to do it now, but are you really saying that there aren't at least 10 - 15 guys currently in the NFL with better overall measurables (I'll gladly include to shuttle and three cone later if you want) than Jermichael Finley?

10-15 guys...sure. Though, there are more than 20-30 TEs in the league aren't there.Im saying he is better than average at TE in OVERALL measurables.

And even then...those are just numbers.

Watch all the guys play then again tell me he is just average athletically and you will be quite incorrect.

Here is the disconnect. My contention all along has been: He's in the average range among NFL starting level TEs, so the top 30 or so. I've repeatedly called him a top 10 fantasy TE and 10 - 20 range as an overall NFL player.

 

[sho nuff]

Yeah, it's really not as much fun for me arguing semantics vs actual substance. Average height for a TE is probably 6'3" - 6'5". You win, the median might be a hair under 6'5" - congrats.You're still missing the big picture, which is that Finley's overall physical measurables match up pretty well with what he's produced thus far on the field - whether you want to call it average, solid, decent, whatever. The point is it's not anywhere remotely close to elite.

On the field?2011...3rd in TDs, 14th in receptions, 12th in yards, 5th in yards per reception average.That is better than average.That...his first season of playing 16 games.That put him 6th in standard scoring FF leagues...a mere 8 points behind 4th place Gonzo.

 

[sho nuff]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

I'm on my phone so I'm certainly not going to do it now, but are you really saying that there aren't at least 10 - 15 guys currently in the NFL with better overall measurables (I'll gladly include to shuttle and three cone later if you want) than Jermichael Finley?

10-15 guys...sure. Though, there are more than 20-30 TEs in the league aren't there.Im saying he is better than average at TE in OVERALL measurables.

And even then...those are just numbers.

Watch all the guys play then again tell me he is just average athletically and you will be quite incorrect.

Here is the disconnect. My contention all along has been: He's in the average range among NFL starting level TEs, so the top 30 or so. I've repeatedly called him a top 10 fantasy TE and 10 - 20 range as an overall NFL player.

IMO...he is a top 10 overall NFL TE.That his situation is going to limit his receptions and yards...but he makes the most of them (look at yards per reception and TDs to show that).

I don't think much of anything is showing he is just simply average (at best as was said somewhere in this thread I believe).

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Yeah, it's really not as much fun for me arguing semantics vs actual substance. Average height for a TE is probably 6'3" - 6'5". You win, the median might be a hair under 6'5" - congrats.You're still missing the big picture, which is that Finley's overall physical measurables match up pretty well with what he's produced thus far on the field - whether you want to call it average, solid, decent, whatever. The point is it's not anywhere remotely close to elite.

On the field?2011...3rd in TDs, 14th in receptions, 12th in yards, 5th in yards per reception average.That is better than average.That...his first season of playing 16 games.That put him 6th in standard scoring FF leagues...a mere 8 points behind 4th place Gonzo.

Considering the GB offense ranked 3rd in yards and 1st in TDs, that looks like about what a guy in the 10 - 20 range should do.

 

[sho nuff]

Yeah, it's really not as much fun for me arguing semantics vs actual substance. Average height for a TE is probably 6'3" - 6'5". You win, the median might be a hair under 6'5" - congrats.You're still missing the big picture, which is that Finley's overall physical measurables match up pretty well with what he's produced thus far on the field - whether you want to call it average, solid, decent, whatever. The point is it's not anywhere remotely close to elite.

On the field?2011...3rd in TDs, 14th in receptions, 12th in yards, 5th in yards per reception average.That is better than average.That...his first season of playing 16 games.That put him 6th in standard scoring FF leagues...a mere 8 points behind 4th place Gonzo.

Considering the GB offense ranked 3rd in yards and 1st in TDs, that looks like about what a guy in the 10 - 20 range should do.

Whatever you say boss.Its not like they have other quality options in that passing game right?BTW...you keep bringing up average...and elite.As if there is nothing in between.IMO...there is the huge disconnect. You have not really seen me call him elite. I think he is just below guys like Gronk and Graham and Gates on the field and still has to show he can be on their level.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Lets also say...that comparing him to 3 of the top guys...is not a way to show he is "below average" or just "average" as an athlete.

I called him an average starting NFL TE. 10 - 20 range as a NFL player. The GB system bumps him into the top 10 as a fantasy TE.This all started when the other dude compared him directly to Gronk and Graham and said he was the one guy most physically capable of dominating on the field, or some similar garbage.

No, this started when you said "Finley is an average talent. Nothing more, nothing less."

Give one piece of evidence suggesting he's above average. Production on the field has been average at best considering the QB and system. Measurables are below average. I guess the eyeball test from a few FF message board dudes should outweigh that kind of stuff in your eyes?

His overall measurables are not below average...no matter how many times you want to try claiming they are.

I'm on my phone so I'm certainly not going to do it now, but are you really saying that there aren't at least 10 - 15 guys currently in the NFL with better overall measurables (I'll gladly include to shuttle and three cone later if you want) than Jermichael Finley?

10-15 guys...sure. Though, there are more than 20-30 TEs in the league aren't there.Im saying he is better than average at TE in OVERALL measurables.

And even then...those are just numbers.

Watch all the guys play then again tell me he is just average athletically and you will be quite incorrect.

Here is the disconnect. My contention all along has been: He's in the average range among NFL starting level TEs, so the top 30 or so. I've repeatedly called him a top 10 fantasy TE and 10 - 20 range as an overall NFL player.

IMO...he is a top 10 overall NFL TE.That his situation is going to limit his receptions and yards...but he makes the most of them (look at yards per reception and TDs to show that).

I don't think much of anything is showing he is just simply average (at best as was said somewhere in this thread I believe).

His situation limits him? Really? Come on man. Playing in GB with Aaron Rodgers is keeping his receptions and yardage down?

 

[sho nuff]

His situation limits him? Really? Come on man. Playing in GB with Aaron Rodgers is keeping his receptions and yardage down?

Which of those elite guys you keep listing are sharing the field with Jennings, Nelson, Drive, Cobb, Jones?HTH

His situation is that he is in an offense with several damn good options...options other teams simply don't have.

And given Gronk and Graham are not exactly hurting at QB talent...bringing up Rodgers is pretty laughable in this comparison now isn't it?

 

[Coeur de Lion]

NE and NO both have receiving talent equal to that of GB.

Elite talent + elite situation = 90+ / 1200+

Average talent + elite situation = 55 / 767

Your pathological need to get the last word in in any Packers disagreement never fails to amuse. :thumbsup:

 

[sho nuff]

NE and NO both have receiving talent equal to that of GB.Elite talent + elite situation = 90+ / 1200+Average talent + elite situation = 55 / 767 Your pathological need to get the last word in in any Packers disagreement never fails to amuse. :thumbsup:

The last word argument is always funny...some guy says something I disagree with...and I should just say nothing rather than voice my disagreement on afreaking message board.Then play the last word card...ensuring one of 2 things...either, I say nothing and you get what you want (the last word)...or I say something and you like to feel good about yourself.That you think the receiving talent in NE is equal to the Packers is pretty funny.I don't think NO's is up to GB's either.Jennings and Nelson are easily better than the top options outside of the TEs in both of those places. Easily.Take the top TE options out because that is who we are comparing.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Expecting you to have a reasonable discussion about anything GB related is obviously asking way too much. Welker / Hernandez vs Jennings / Nelson isn't remotely close to laughable, particularly in the context of "bigger threat to the TE1's targets."

 

[sho nuff]

Expecting you to have a reasonable discussion about anything GB related is obviously asking way too much. Welker / Hernandez vs Jennings / Nelson isn't remotely close to laughable, particularly in the context of "bigger threat to the TE1's targets."

You have been in here insulting others...yet want to say its not possible to have a reasonable discussion with me.And sorry, Hernandez/Welker is not the threat of Jennings/Nelson...Next you will post their receptions and yards won't you.Ignoring the 100+ more passes Brady threw...ignoring the gigantic difference in yards per catch with those guys.Sorry...but Jennings and Neslon >>> Welker and Hernandez

 

[SWC]

i like couer de laine idaho it is a great city and pretty as all get out and i owuld like to get back there and eat up some of those trout out there but long story short this will be a good year for jermike take that to the bank brohans

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Expecting you to have a reasonable discussion about anything GB related is obviously asking way too much. Welker / Hernandez vs Jennings / Nelson isn't remotely close to laughable, particularly in the context of "bigger threat to the TE1's targets."

You have been in here insulting others...yet want to say its not possible to have a reasonable discussion with me.And sorry, Hernandez/Welker is not the threat of Jennings/Nelson...Next you will post their receptions and yards won't you.Ignoring the 100+ more passes Brady threw...ignoring the gigantic difference in yards per catch with those guys.Sorry...but Jennings and Neslon >>> Welker and Hernandez

Percentage of targets:Jennings + Nelson = 194 on 502 attempts = 38.6%Welker + Hernandez = 286 on 611 attempts = 46.3%Probably time for you to just stick with the eyeball test man. Numbers don't appear to be a strength.

 

[sho nuff]

Expecting you to have a reasonable discussion about anything GB related is obviously asking way too much. Welker / Hernandez vs Jennings / Nelson isn't remotely close to laughable, particularly in the context of "bigger threat to the TE1's targets."

You have been in here insulting others...yet want to say its not possible to have a reasonable discussion with me.And sorry, Hernandez/Welker is not the threat of Jennings/Nelson...Next you will post their receptions and yards won't you.Ignoring the 100+ more passes Brady threw...ignoring the gigantic difference in yards per catch with those guys.Sorry...but Jennings and Neslon >>> Welker and Hernandez

Percentage of targets:Jennings + Nelson = 194 on 502 attempts = 38.6%Welker + Hernandez = 286 on 611 attempts = 46.3%Probably time for you to just stick with the eyeball test man. Numbers don't appear to be a strength.

Percentage of targets now is a sign of which of those tandems is more talented?Sort of ignores the rest of GB's receiving options, the difference in offenses...and so many other factors.But, whatever floats your boat of red herrings.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Additional thoughts on Finley?

No bickering allowed.

 

[joffer]

Additional thoughts on Finley?

Stud