Jerry Rice vs. Randy Moss (2 Viewers)

[David Yudkin]

Say what you want about Moss, but statistically he is ahead of Rice statistically if and only if he started being productive out of the gate and IIRC started playing at a younger age.

As I cited earlier, Moss is on pace for a career year this year and should be on track for having career totals of the following (which would mean through age 30):

775 receptions, 12350 receiving yards, and 122 TD.

Jerry Rice through age 30 put up:

610 receptions, 10273 receiving yards, and 103 TD.

Again as I mentioned earlier, where mOss may fall short is that most people would argue that he won't play into his 40s like Rice did. But he certainly is in the discussion for being the most likely player to better Rice's career totals.

If he stays another 5 years in NE with Brady (and of course stays healthy), he should catch up a lot of ground compared to Rice.

 

[Native]

People get too caught up in statistics. IMO Moss's greatness should measured by the seven year stretch he had in Minnesota, when he was arguably the most explosive receivier to ever play the game. His incredible stats and accomplishments in New England will surely add to his legend, but it was the way he burst onto the scene with unmatched athleticism and grace that took the football world by storm.

I never saw Don Hutson play so I cant speak of his skills, but I wouldnt have a problem calling Moss the second best receiver of all time - even if he stopped playing tomorrow.

 

[Sidewinder16]

...



I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is?

I am not. Is it possible that you are vastly overestimating how good Moss is.

Not a chance. I've been watching football for as long as all of these guys have played (Rice, Moss, Harrison, Irvin) and if you tell me I can have any one of them to build a team around I can't rank them any way other than:Rice

Moss

Harrison

Irvin

I'd rank the same way. I have a grudge against Irvin for being a Cowboy but that should balance out the Cowboys fans.

I don't think ranking Irvin last in this list is a slight against Irvin in the least. The margin of separation between Moss, Harrison and Irvin here is relatively slight.Rice, obviously, is otherworldly.

 

[dickey moe]

Professionalism.

 

[dgreen]

Passing TDs by Moss' teams:

41

32

33

23

19

32

39

21

7

33 so far

How many different QBs threw TDs on those teams? 12. What was the one constant? Moss.

 

[MOAT]

I believe that Moss' play in NE is more a factor of Brady than Brady's numbers are a factor of Moss.

So the QB who never topped 28 TDs is the reason the WR who is already 5th in all time TD receptions is doing well?Moss has made many average QBs looked phenomenal.

Correct. Moss is a great WR. His stint in Oakland proved that he can't compensate for a bad QB like he used to be able to (Minnesota). Brady was an above average QB before Moss got there? Moss was a below average WR in Oakland.FWIW, Moss' skills are not the question. Moss might have the greatest skills of all time. I haven't seen a more exciting WR play. However, he does not have the work ethic and leadership to become the GOAT. That isn't a shot at Moss. Not everyone is a leader. He will go into the HOF but isn't the GOAT unless he develops the other parts of his game.

 

[dgreen]

Professionalism.

Are you saying that if Moss was more of a professional, that would close the gap in your mind be he and Rice?

 

[dgreen]

However, he does not have the work ethic and leadership to become the GOAT. That isn't a shot at Moss. Not everyone is a leader.

Was Rice a leader? Honest question.You just don't hear "leader" applied to many WRs. Michael Irvin is the most common one, but you don't hear many others.

 

[az_prof]

Consider their respective QBs: Young and Montana--HOFers. Versus: Randall Cunningham in his late 30s; Jeff George; Brad Johnson; Andrew Walters and Aaron Brooks and Tuiosopo. Yes, Moss had a couple years of good performance from Cpep, but it is clear now that he was the one who made Cpep great, not the other way around. If Moss had had a Brady his whole career this wouldn't even be close. If he stays in NE and keeps playing with Brady it is possible that he catches Rice. Two of the best offenses in the history of the NFL have one thing in common: Moss--the 98 Vikings who went 15-1 by virtue of their prolific offense and the 2007 NE Patriots.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Rice went over the middle, Moss didn't.

Rice made a team's roster at age 42, Moss never will.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

...



I think you're vastly underestimating how good Moss is?

I am not. Is it possible that you are vastly overestimating how good Moss is.

Not a chance. I've been watching football for as long as all of these guys have played (Rice, Moss, Harrison, Irvin) and if you tell me I can have any one of them to build a team around I can't rank them any way other than:Rice

Moss

Harrison

Irvin

Really? You'd risk your new team on a guy who might not feel like playing for you...over Harrison? A guy who might take your money, criticize the coaches and do nothing for you? You're a risk-taker.

 

[Buttmonkey]

Rice went over the middle, Moss didn't.Rice made a team's roster at age 42, Moss never will.

Idiot comment. Moss went "over the middle several times in the Indy game alone"You have no clue as to if he'll play or not at 42. He took millions of dollars pay cut to play for a winner. And for those that say he doesn't stay in shape, his off-season workouts is one of the best in the league. You're stero-typing and not going by facts. Do a "little" research before spouting off useless facts.

 

[Tau837]

Random thoughts:

My perception of Rice is that he his physical skills were great but not necessarily elite. But due to his work ethic, attitude, and understanding of the game, he maximized his potential. One cannot look back and think Rice could have been greater, if only... well, other than if he didn't miss the one year to injury.

Moss has physical skills that are the best I've ever seen in a WR, and were certainly better than Rice's IMO. However, his work ethic, attitude, and understanding of the game have not compared to Rice, and thus he has not come close to maximizing his potential from a career perspective. He has certainly had some individual seasons in which he compiled a lot of impressive numbers... though even then I can't help but think that he could have done more at times.

To be sure, situation has been an important discriminator between them - Rice in SF and Moss with lesser QBs... But I think this is a bit overstated. In his first breakout year, in 1986, he had 86/1570/15, but Jeff Kemp and Mike Moroski played half the games at QB (Montana played the other half). In 1991, Steve Young had ~54% of the 49ers passing attempts, with Steve Bono getting the rest, and Rice had 80/1206/14. In 2001, he moved to the Raiders at age 39 and was a top 10 WR with Gannon. And again in 2002 at age 40. Obviously Rice benefitted, but IMO he would have been great on any team.

Harrison is like Moss in that it's hard to look at his impressive career and feel that he could have done more. I think that is what causes people to elevate Harrison above Moss.

All this said, if the question were who is most likely to give Rice a run, it is obviously Moss. But he is so far away, that it isn't really worth talking about for at least a few more years.

Someone posted the per game averages for Rice and Moss above, and they compare favorably... until you realize that Rice played 13 years past Moss's current age... does anyone really think Moss's per game averages won't drop if he plays for several more years? That would be an edge to Rice. And if Moss doesn't play several more years and leaves the game for some reason before he declines, that is also an edge to Rice, since Moss will not come close to career totals or longevity or, most likely, postseason success. The only way Moss really makes this a close comparison is by playing several more years healthy and at a high level.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Idiot comment. Moss went "over the middle several times in the Indy game alone"You have no clue as to if he'll play or not at 42. He took millions of dollars pay cut to play for a winner.

No, Moss took a cut of millions of dollars because, after tanking it in Oakland, he had to.

 

[The Moz]

Put Moss on a team his entire career with Montana, Young , Garcia, Gannon -- IMO Moss has even better numbers for a career than Rice !

Rice while great played with 2 of the top 5 QB's of all time for 80% of his career.

Put Rice on Cincy or the Jets during his career - I seriously doubt he might not even make the HOF ! !

 

[Jason Wood]

To be fair, the numbers really aren't even close...Moss is currently playing his 10th season. For the sake of comparison let's say Moss finishes the year on his current pace statistically. That would give Randy a 2007 season of:

*** 100 receptions

*** 1,643 yards

*** 21 TDs

That would put his 10-year career numbers at:

*** 776 receptions

*** 12,343 yards

*** 122 TDs

Compare those to Jerry Rice's numbers 10 years in:

*** 820 receptions (5.7% more)

*** 13,275 yards (7.6% more)

*** 131 TDs (7.4% more)

When you consider how far Rice is ahead of Moss at the same points in their career, and then consider Rice's unprecedented longevity; Moss (for as great as he is) really isn't challenging Rice for the G.O.A.T. title IMHO.

Now 2nd best of all time? That's certainly doable.

 

[dgreen]

One cannot look back and think Rice could have been greater...

I agree. He was a talented receiver who did all he could to produce AND was blessed with a pretty good situation.

 

[Saints-Man]

...Because this isn't the MLB HOF where "above mediocre for 12 years" qualifies you for the HOF. NFL HOF is about dominating your peers over a shorter (but non flukey) period of time. It's the reason Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testaverde have no chance at the HOF, despite being top 10 overall in most QB categories, while Steve Young (barely top 20 in any passing category) is.

Randy Moss made guys like Jeff George, Todd Bouman and Gus Frerotte look like all pros on the stat sheet. Even a past his prime Randy Moss made Kerry Collins look serviceable at the end of his career. Randall Cunningham @ 35 years old stepped onto the field with a rookie Moss and had his best season as a passer.

Randy Moss is very easy to dislike (understatement). He's childish. He gets in trouble off the field. He doesn't have the work ethic other great players are known for. And you know what? He still dominated his position when he stepped on the field. Harrison and Moss were 1A and 1B for years in the NFL. If you were starting a team in his prime and had your choice of any WR in the league, Moss wouldn't have been chosen later than 3 by any GM for half a decade.

That's a HOFer.

That is pure speculation on your part.

And what you're doing is...?I'll hang up and listen.

Never claimed my postings were not. However, I was solely posting and interpreting numbers and actual play. You posted an opinion about what other people(NFL GM's) might do. I never posted anything about what other people might do. Therefore, that is speculation and not observation.You can pick up the phone again.

 

[bcr8f]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

He doesn't have the work ethic necessary at age 40 to do it. He doesn't have the love or commitment needed to do it. He was given a gift and that is his strength, but can he work hard when the gift leaves him? I doubt it.

 

[Saints-Man]

Professionalism.

Are you saying that if Moss was more of a professional, that would close the gap in your mind be he and Rice?

In some aspects, yes. A WR is more about catching passes. It is about blocking also. It is about route running. It is also about play-to-play execution and effort.These things are also factored when considering the level of play.

 

[Saints-Man]

However, he does not have the work ethic and leadership to become the GOAT. That isn't a shot at Moss. Not everyone is a leader.

Was Rice a leader? Honest question.You just don't hear "leader" applied to many WRs. Michael Irvin is the most common one, but you don't hear many others.

Yes, Rice was a leader on his team. I am getting this from quotes from former 49er players. He always worked hard, and many teammates followed his lead.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Numbers don't determine the GOAT. Emmitt Smith is not the greatest running back of all time.

 

[Saints-Man]

Consider their respective QBs: Young and Montana--HOFers. Versus: Randall Cunningham in his late 30s; Jeff George; Brad Johnson; Andrew Walters and Aaron Brooks and Tuiosopo. Yes, Moss had a couple years of good performance from Cpep, but it is clear now that he was the one who made Cpep great, not the other way around. If Moss had had a Brady his whole career this wouldn't even be close. If he stays in NE and keeps playing with Brady it is possible that he catches Rice. Two of the best offenses in the history of the NFL have one thing in common: Moss--the 98 Vikings who went 15-1 by virtue of their prolific offense and the 2007 NE Patriots.

If you are going to mention Moss in this vein, then you must mention his playoff performance. In that great '98 year for the Vikes, they beat a pedestrian Arizona team 41-21 and Rice had 4/73/1. Not bad, not great either.But, in the biggest game of his NFL career to date, when the perceived to be unstoppable Vikings choked against an inferior Falcons team(at home, no less), Moss was 6/75/1. Once again not bad, but not great either. When determining greatness, "clutch" factor plays into these discussions.

 

[dgreen]

To be fair, the numbers really aren't even close...Moss is currently playing his 10th season. For the sake of comparison let's say Moss finishes the year on his current pace statistically. That would give Randy a 2007 season of:*** 100 receptions*** 1,643 yards*** 21 TDsThat would put his 10-year career numbers at:*** 776 receptions*** 12,343 yards*** 122 TDsCompare those to Jerry Rice's numbers 10 years in:*** 820 receptions (5.7% more)*** 13,275 yards (7.6% more)*** 131 TDs (7.4% more)When you consider how far Rice is ahead of Moss at the same points in their career, and then consider Rice's unprecedented longevity; Moss (for as great as he is) really isn't challenging Rice for the G.O.A.T. title IMHO.Now 2nd best of all time? That's certainly doable.

You can do many comparisons. Yudkin did it by age (30) and you've done it by seasons (10). You can also look at games. Moss has played in 147 games and has produced:732-11624-113Rice, after 147 games, had:753-12400-124It's what Rice did over the next 41 games (through season 12 and age 34) that Moss will have to keep up with the next few years:297-3977-30Rice had arguably his best season at 33 years old in season 11 (122-1848-15). Can Moss do that? If he can keep a similar distance by season 12, his situation (if he's still happy and on a good passing team) can give him some late seasons that surpass Rice's late seasons.

 

[ShadowMaster]

The final stat gap is still TBD, but there is no doubt that there is and will always be a HUGE gap in work ethic between Rice and Moss.

Rice had a rare combination of top talent and an unmatched work ethic. It will take another player with both to challenge Rice for GOAT.

 

[Saints-Man]

Numbers don't determine the GOAT. Emmitt Smith is not the greatest running back of all time.

Fair point.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think the more interesting conversation revolves around whether Moss will be remembered as the 2nd best receiver.

 

[dgreen]

I think the more interesting conversation revolves around whether Moss will be remembered as the 2nd best receiver.

It appears so.This thread was intended to be about the gap between Rice and X. I simply assumed Moss was X. Plus he's a nice comparison since their careers are so close in time. Traditionally, Don Hutson is mentioned a lot as WR2. Since Hutson's and Rice's careers started 50 years apart, that's a tough comparison, especially since nobody here saw Hutson play. IMO, Alworth would have to be in the conversation, too. Other than that, I'm not sure I'd throw anyone else in.ETA: Not only did I assume Moss was X, I assumed Moss' current season would be closing the gap in the minds of some.

 

[Tau837]

Numbers don't determine the GOAT. Emmitt Smith is not the greatest running back of all time.

Fair point.

It is a fair point, but I wouldn't leave it at that. The player with the best numbers is not necessarily GOAT, but numbers is certainly one of the important criteria insofar as they represent performance/impact.Also, while I agree that Smith isn't the GOAT, but it is also true that many might not judge him to have the best numbers for RBs... how do Smith's per game numbers match up with players like Jim Brown, for example?In Rice's case he lapped the field for career numbers, so the numbers alone provide a pretty compelling argument. Then when you add in that he also had everything else (peak performance, postseason performance, honors/awards), it is clear that no one else measures up. Moss still would have a tremendous amount of work to do to ultimately compare favorably to Rice.

 

[David Yudkin]

To be fair, the numbers really aren't even close...Moss is currently playing his 10th season. For the sake of comparison let's say Moss finishes the year on his current pace statistically. That would give Randy a 2007 season of:*** 100 receptions*** 1,643 yards*** 21 TDsThat would put his 10-year career numbers at:*** 776 receptions*** 12,343 yards*** 122 TDsCompare those to Jerry Rice's numbers 10 years in:*** 820 receptions (5.7% more)*** 13,275 yards (7.6% more)*** 131 TDs (7.4% more)When you consider how far Rice is ahead of Moss at the same points in their career, and then consider Rice's unprecedented longevity; Moss (for as great as he is) really isn't challenging Rice for the G.O.A.T. title IMHO.Now 2nd best of all time? That's certainly doable.

I'm not saying Moss is better (cause he's not). But AGE wise, Moss is ahead of Rice at this stage in terms of career numbers (because he's played in more games).

 

[Koya]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

(1) That will likely change if he stays in NE. Probably will change this year.(2) Tell me what "ok" QB Rice made into one of the leagues best? Because without Moss, I don't think anyone would have talked about Culpepper outside of being a very difficult QB to tackle. Moss made an ok QB great which is not something you can say about Rice (not that it was Rice's fault... but the guy did have two of the most gifted QBs to ever play the position get him the ball for a bulk of his career)

 

[TheGreatest]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

(1) That will likely change if he stays in NE. Probably will change this year.(2) Tell me what "ok" QB Rice made into one of the leagues best? Because without Moss, I don't think anyone would have talked about Culpepper outside of being a very difficult QB to tackle. Moss made an ok QB great which is not something you can say about Rice (not that it was Rice's fault... but the guy did have two of the most gifted QBs to ever play the position get him the ball for a bulk of his career)

Who's to say Rice didn't make Montana and Young greater than what they could of been? Montana certaintly was not the most gifted QB to play the game. One of the smartest maybe.

 

[Koya]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

(1) That will likely change if he stays in NE. Probably will change this year.(2) Tell me what "ok" QB Rice made into one of the leagues best? Because without Moss, I don't think anyone would have talked about Culpepper outside of being a very difficult QB to tackle. Moss made an ok QB great which is not something you can say about Rice (not that it was Rice's fault... but the guy did have two of the most gifted QBs to ever play the position get him the ball for a bulk of his career)

Who's to say Rice didn't make Montana and Young greater than what they could of been? Montana certaintly was not the most gifted QB to play the game. One of the smartest maybe.

I never said Rice didnt make them greater - but you are talking about QBs who in one case WAS great BEFORE Rice got there (and won a SB without Rice) and the latter would have been great without Rice so long as he had some tools to work with. Now, what is this about Montana not being one of the most gifted QBs ever? A QBs gifts do not only include an arm. If that were the case, Jeff George would enter the conversation. Montana was about as gifted a QB as has ever been... maybe not the strongest armed, but certainly excpetionally gifted in terms of playmaking ability, accuracy, leadership, clutchness.The same can't exactly be said of Culpepper.

 

[TheGreatest]

He won't catch Jerry Rice because of his two years in Oakland. Otherwise he might have. Moss is 30 years old now, and he has achieved a little more than 50% of Rice's yardage, and about 60% of the td's.

And 0% of the Super Bowl rings.

(1) That will likely change if he stays in NE. Probably will change this year.(2) Tell me what "ok" QB Rice made into one of the leagues best? Because without Moss, I don't think anyone would have talked about Culpepper outside of being a very difficult QB to tackle. Moss made an ok QB great which is not something you can say about Rice (not that it was Rice's fault... but the guy did have two of the most gifted QBs to ever play the position get him the ball for a bulk of his career)

Who's to say Rice didn't make Montana and Young greater than what they could of been? Montana certaintly was not the most gifted QB to play the game. One of the smartest maybe.

I never said Rice didnt make them greater - but you are talking about QBs who in one case WAS great BEFORE Rice got there (and won a SB without Rice) and the latter would have been great without Rice so long as he had some tools to work with. Now, what is this about Montana not being one of the most gifted QBs ever? A QBs gifts do not only include an arm. If that were the case, Jeff George would enter the conversation. Montana was about as gifted a QB as has ever been... maybe not the strongest armed, but certainly excpetionally gifted in terms of playmaking ability, accuracy, leadership, clutchness.The same can't exactly be said of Culpepper.

Don't get me wrong. Montana is an all time great QB if not the greatest. But he was not as gifted as many a QBs who have played. He was a very smart QB who knew how to win. He was great for many of the reasons you mentioned but I do think Montana was lucky to have played with who he played with as well. Bill Walsh & Clark, Rice, Taylor, Craig, Jones, etc.... He had alot of talent around him to help him succed. Simliar to T. Brady if you ask me.

 

[Saints-Man]

...;

I never said Rice didnt make them greater - but you are talking about QBs who in one case WAS great BEFORE Rice got there (and won a SB without Rice) and the latter would have been great without Rice so long as he had some tools to work with.

Now, what is this about Montana not being one of the most gifted QBs ever? A QBs gifts do not only include an arm. If that were the case, Jeff George would enter the conversation. Montana was about as gifted a QB as has ever been... maybe not the strongest armed, but certainly excpetionally gifted in terms of playmaking ability, accuracy, leadership, clutchness.

The same can't exactly be said of Culpepper.

And you can apply this same reasoning to Moss. He is VERY fast, and can make great catches while dropping easy ones(especially those nasty ones over the middle). His leadership and clutchness is very much unproven at this point in his career. When this totality is considered, Harrison and Irvin(of whom I am not a fan) and others can easily be evaluated greater than Moss.

 

[Tough As Nails]

There is a pretty good chance that the Patriots become the highest scoring offense in the history of the league this season. Who are they chasing? The 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Common factor? Randy Moss. He adds a dimension to an offense that nobody else ever really has.

 

[Saints-Man]

There is a pretty good chance that the Patriots become the highest scoring offense in the history of the league this season. Who are they chasing? The 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Common factor? Randy Moss. He adds a dimension to an offense that nobody else ever really has.

Common player, not common factor. Common factor is great OL's and good-to-great QBs(good-Cunningham, great-Brady) having career years. Remember, in 1998 Moss was not the #1 WR on the team. It was Cris Carter. For that reason, wasn't there a guy who played on both the Celtics and the Bulls but barely got any minutes? If you are going to use that logic here, why not translate it there?If Moss was the #1 WR option for Minnesota that year, your postulation would have some merit. Just because he posted great numbers does not give your postulation merit.

 

[Tough As Nails]

There is a pretty good chance that the Patriots become the highest scoring offense in the history of the league this season. Who are they chasing? The 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Common factor? Randy Moss. He adds a dimension to an offense that nobody else ever really has.

Common player, not common factor. Common factor is great OL's and good-to-great QBs(good-Cunningham, great-Brady) having career years. Remember, in 1998 Moss was not the #1 WR on the team. It was Cris Carter. For that reason, wasn't there a guy who played on both the Celtics and the Bulls but barely got any minutes? If you are going to use that logic here, why not translate it there?If Moss was the #1 WR option for Minnesota that year, your postulation would have some merit. Just because he posted great numbers does not give your postulation merit.

Oh. You're right. Moss had nothing to do with those two teams scoring so many points. Forget looking at the difference from the year before for both teams. He's just a minor contributor. No more impact than a Luc Longley type guy. You really think he just "happened" to be on both those teams? That he wasn't a factor?

 

[Koya]

...;

I never said Rice didnt make them greater - but you are talking about QBs who in one case WAS great BEFORE Rice got there (and won a SB without Rice) and the latter would have been great without Rice so long as he had some tools to work with.

Now, what is this about Montana not being one of the most gifted QBs ever? A QBs gifts do not only include an arm. If that were the case, Jeff George would enter the conversation. Montana was about as gifted a QB as has ever been... maybe not the strongest armed, but certainly excpetionally gifted in terms of playmaking ability, accuracy, leadership, clutchness.

The same can't exactly be said of Culpepper.

And you can apply this same reasoning to Moss. He is VERY fast, and can make great catches while dropping easy ones(especially those nasty ones over the middle). His leadership and clutchness is very much unproven at this point in his career. When this totality is considered, Harrison and Irvin(of whom I am not a fan) and others can easily be evaluated greater than Moss.

In regard to clutchness, I believe Marv's playoff stats are considerably disappointing... and I am a huge Marv fan. I too am not a fan of Irvin, but the guy was a great leader who came up big when needed.I disagree with the Moss missing easy catches - his time in Oak was like a bad dream - while I have issues with how Moss dealt with the situation, the fact is that place was an utter disaster... that has to be taken into account when considering those years. That said, Moss' hands are about as good as anyones, and when he is into the game he makes all kinds of catches... just look at the one handed jumping, reaching grab he made over the middle not long ago.

 

[Saints-Man]

There is a pretty good chance that the Patriots become the highest scoring offense in the history of the league this season. Who are they chasing? The 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Common factor? Randy Moss. He adds a dimension to an offense that nobody else ever really has.

Common player, not common factor. Common factor is great OL's and good-to-great QBs(good-Cunningham, great-Brady) having career years. Remember, in 1998 Moss was not the #1 WR on the team. It was Cris Carter. For that reason, wasn't there a guy who played on both the Celtics and the Bulls but barely got any minutes? If you are going to use that logic here, why not translate it there?If Moss was the #1 WR option for Minnesota that year, your postulation would have some merit. Just because he posted great numbers does not give your postulation merit.

Oh. You're right. Moss had nothing to do with those two teams scoring so many points. Forget looking at the difference from the year before for both teams. He's just a minor contributor. No more impact than a Luc Longley type guy.

Well, if Moss was so great, why did the Minn Vikings output in 1999, Moss 2nd year, drop so dramatically? The Vikings points by year:1997 - 354 - before Moss arrived1998 - 5561999 - 399 So, if Moss is so great, why did the Vikings scoring fall by 150+ points in his second year? Was he great in his first year, but not great in his second? If you are going to make the point that he was the sole/main reason their points shot up, why did they go down in his 2nd year? He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.

 

[buck naked]

This thread started as Moss to Rice. I never saw Rice "alligator arm" a throw. I have definitely seen Moss do that over the last 5 years on several occasions. Also, when it comes to heart, its no contest. Moss is nowhere close to Rice in effort and heart.

 

[The Moz]

Put Moss on Frisco in the mid 80's to mid 90's -- He has numbers that would at worst = Rice.

 

[Saints-Man]

...;

I never said Rice didnt make them greater - but you are talking about QBs who in one case WAS great BEFORE Rice got there (and won a SB without Rice) and the latter would have been great without Rice so long as he had some tools to work with.

Now, what is this about Montana not being one of the most gifted QBs ever? A QBs gifts do not only include an arm. If that were the case, Jeff George would enter the conversation. Montana was about as gifted a QB as has ever been... maybe not the strongest armed, but certainly excpetionally gifted in terms of playmaking ability, accuracy, leadership, clutchness.

The same can't exactly be said of Culpepper.

And you can apply this same reasoning to Moss. He is VERY fast, and can make great catches while dropping easy ones(especially those nasty ones over the middle). His leadership and clutchness is very much unproven at this point in his career. When this totality is considered, Harrison and Irvin(of whom I am not a fan) and others can easily be evaluated greater than Moss.

In regard to clutchness, I believe Marv's playoff stats are considerably disappointing... and I am a huge Marv fan. I too am not a fan of Irvin, but the guy was a great leader who came up big when needed.I disagree with the Moss missing easy catches - his time in Oak was like a bad dream - while I have issues with how Moss dealt with the situation, the fact is that place was an utter disaster... that has to be taken into account when considering those years. That said, Moss' hands are about as good as anyones, and when he is into the game he makes all kinds of catches... just look at the one handed jumping, reaching grab he made over the middle not long ago.

Moss ability to make great catches is awesome, as evidenced by the catch in the endzone to which I think you are referring. However, he also dropped at least two easy catches over the middle in the NE/Indy game this past weekend. I was not full with my post...he does not consistently catch the short passes over the middle where a possibility of contact is present. If it is a deep ball over the middle when he is wrestling with a defender or two, he can be amazing. And to quote you,

and when he is into the game he makes all kinds of catches

He has been very inconsistent in his career when he is and when he is not into the game. So far so good for his time in New England. But even his days in Minnesota were marked by times he was not "into the game". That is not a mark of greatness.

 

[Tough As Nails]

He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.

So WR health is more important than QB health? If Brady plays 7 games next year and then gives way to Jeff freaking George...I'm pretty sure the Patriots won't put up 35 points per game. The fact that the Vikings offense still finished 5th in the league with that guy at the helm helps the argument for Moss more than it hurts. Moss went for 80-1413-11 that year by the way.

 

[Saints-Man]

Put Moss on Frisco in the mid 80's to mid 90's -- He has numbers that would at worst = Rice.

I don't think neccsarily think so. SF offense(at least then) was based on precise route-running, an aspect of Moss' game where he is below par.

 

[Saints-Man]

He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.

So WR health is more important than QB health? If Brady plays 7 games next year and then gives way to Jeff freaking George...I'm pretty sure the Patriots won't put up 35 points per game. The fact that the Vikings offense still finished 5th in the league with that guy at the helm helps the argument for Moss more than it hurts. Moss went for 80-1413-11 that year by the way.

By the injuries, I was solely pointing out that he was healthy. And Carter was 90/1241/13 and was the #1 WR on the team. How can you cite stats that show Moss wasn't even the best on his own team and use them that he was one of the greatest of all time?

 

[David Yudkin]

How can you cite stats that show Moss wasn't even the best on his own team and use them that he was one of the greatest of all time?

I don't know, but people have tried in Art Monk threads.

 

[Saints-Man]

He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.

So WR health is more important than QB health?

If Brady plays 7 games next year and then gives way to Jeff freaking George...I'm pretty sure the Patriots won't put up 35 points per game.

The fact that the Vikings offense still finished 5th in the league with that guy at the helm helps the argument for Moss more than it hurts. Moss went for 80-1413-11 that year by the way.

Also, in the 6 games that Cunningham played and was healthy, the Vikings were 2-4 and never scored more than 23 points, averaging 20 ppg. So, what happened for those 6 games? Everyone was healthy, so where was Moss' greatness that you claim was so obvious due to the fact that their scoring increased so dramatically the year he arrived. Through 6 games in 1999, with everyone healthy, the Vikes were on pace to score less than they had in 1997. If you are going to give Moss the credit for this, doesn't he shoulder the blame?What other reason for their low offensive output if everyone, including Moss, was healthy?

BTW, with the same Vikings healthy as 1998, they averaged 20 ppg and were on pace to score 320. Since their scoring increased to 399, Jeff George at QB represented a 79 point surge from playing in only 10 games. That is almost an 8(7.9 to be exact) ppg increase.

 

[Saints-Man]

How can you cite stats that show Moss wasn't even the best on his own team and use them that he was one of the greatest of all time?

I don't know, but people have tried in Art Monk threads.

To be fair, David, I have never heard anyone argue that Art Monk was one of the GOAT. I have only read that he deserves to be in the HOF.

 

[azgroover]

There is a pretty good chance that the Patriots become the highest scoring offense in the history of the league this season. Who are they chasing? The 1998 Minnesota Vikings. Common factor? Randy Moss. He adds a dimension to an offense that nobody else ever really has.

Common player, not common factor. Common factor is great OL's and good-to-great QBs(good-Cunningham, great-Brady) having career years. Remember, in 1998 Moss was not the #1 WR on the team. It was Cris Carter. For that reason, wasn't there a guy who played on both the Celtics and the Bulls but barely got any minutes? If you are going to use that logic here, why not translate it there?If Moss was the #1 WR option for Minnesota that year, your postulation would have some merit. Just because he posted great numbers does not give your postulation merit.

Oh. You're right. Moss had nothing to do with those two teams scoring so many points. Forget looking at the difference from the year before for both teams. He's just a minor contributor. No more impact than a Luc Longley type guy.

Well, if Moss was so great, why did the Minn Vikings output in 1999, Moss 2nd year, drop so dramatically? The Vikings points by year:1997 - 354 - before Moss arrived1998 - 5561999 - 399 So, if Moss is so great, why did the Vikings scoring fall by 150+ points in his second year? Was he great in his first year, but not great in his second? If you are going to make the point that he was the sole/main reason their points shot up, why did they go down in his 2nd year? He and Cris Carter played ever game, so injuries weren't a cause.

New offensive philosophy. Brian Billick went to the Ravens after the '98 season.