Jesus (1 Viewer)

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Oh, references to Jesus and references to a historical Jesus are not one and the same. Paul argues his "spiritual" encounters with Jesus are just as real as those of the "real disciples" in order to establish his credentials.

Why would Paul do this if there wasn't actually a man named Jesus who this movement sprung up around?

Are you asking why Paul would assert that never actually meeting Jesus in real life was irrelevant if Jesus wasn't an actual person? Seems pretty self evident. And does Paul ever actual assert that the other disciples, or anyone knew Jesus in any manner different than how knew Jesus?You are not trying to convince me with my stated bias that Jesus was a real historical figure with Paul's writings, you are trying to convince those arguing that Jesus got very little write ups that Paul's letters to various Jesus movements are about a historical figure and not the spiritual one of his dreams.

 

[jon_mx]

You'd think a guy who raised people from the dead, and who himself reappeared after dying, would've received a little more press at the time.

Blame the liberal media.

It was more the lack of good marketing. If they had Jesus bobbleheads, AirJesus shoes, action figures, etc., he would have been a lot bigger.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Oh, references to Jesus and references to a historical Jesus are not one and the same. Paul argues his "spiritual" encounters with Jesus are just as real as those of the "real disciples" in order to establish his credentials.

Why would Paul do this if there wasn't actually a man named Jesus who this movement sprung up around?

Are you asking why Paul would assert that never actually meeting Jesus in real life was irrelevant if Jesus wasn't an actual person?

Come on.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Oh, references to Jesus and references to a historical Jesus are not one and the same. Paul argues his "spiritual" encounters with Jesus are just as real as those of the "real disciples" in order to establish his credentials.

Why would Paul do this if there wasn't actually a man named Jesus who this movement sprung up around?

Are you asking why Paul would assert that never actually meeting Jesus in real life was irrelevant if Jesus wasn't an actual person?

Come on.

Come on what? Where are these numerous passages that jomar can read by Paul about a historical Jesus? Not passages where we assume Paul is referencing a historical figure but passages where there can be no doubt we are speaking of a real person and not a character in the spiritual realm. Spiritual realm characters might seem like a bunch of nonsense, but then again so does much of the 1st few centuries beliefs.ETA: Here I googled to help you and found this. Seems like a pretty odd that the pope just four years ago is teeing off on a softball.

 

[FavreCo]

Jesus is a good story, about as believable as Frosty the Snowman but a good story nonetheless.

 

[jomar]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

Excellent question. If you are to blieve the Bible to the first hand narrative of those types of things then it necessarily has to be that what is in the Bible is divinely authored through the agents of the writers of the Bible. Otherwise it becomes secondary or hearsay accounts. I can say that I have had the same question. Did he have a personal secretary or something? Don't mean to be glib or offensive, but that is exactly what I wondered.

 

[cstu]

We know King Tut was a real historical person because we found a body.

Those that were crucified were usually left out to rot and for the animals to feed.

Why was Jesus put into a cave blocked by a giant rock?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

We know King Tut was a real historical person because we found a body.

Those that were crucified were usually left out to rot and for the animals to feed.

Why was Jesus put into a cave blocked by a giant rock?

He wasn't. He didn't exist in the Biblical form.

 

[timschochet]

I was at my inlaw's church today, (Lutheran), and the Pastor made this statement:

"We know for a certainty that Jesus existed, and not only that, that he rose from the grave on the third day. These are not beliefs only held by Christians anymore; they are historical facts which have plenty of evidence to back them up. For example, there is eyewitness testimony to these events."

Not being a believer myself, I was looking around at this point at the congregation, which was full. I was wondering: how many of them really believe this? Not that Jesus existed and is the Son of God; I'm sure almost all of them believe that, but that there is historical evidence that Jesus rose from the grave? Then again, I couldn't tell if they even listen to the sermon.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I was at my inlaw's church today, (Lutheran), and the Pastor made this statement:"We know for a certainty that Jesus existed, and not only that, that he rose from the grave on the third day. These are not beliefs only held by Christians anymore; they are historical facts which have plenty of evidence to back them up. For example, there is eyewitness testimony to these events." Not being a believer myself, I was looking around at this point at the congregation, which was full. I was wondering: how many of them really believe this? Not that Jesus existed and is the Son of God; I'm sure almost all of them believe that, but that there is historical evidence that Jesus rose from the grave? Then again, I couldn't tell if they even listen to the sermon.

Dangerous! 99% of the congregation has had zero education on Biblical history. The majority just believe what they are told. They don't question anything. So disturbing, and dangerous.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

We know King Tut was a real historical person because we found a body.

Those that were crucified were usually left out to rot and for the animals to feed.

Why was Jesus put into a cave blocked by a giant rock?

He wasn't. He didn't exist in the Biblical form.

How is the certainty of your belief that he didn't exist any more founded than the fundamentalist certainty that he did exist? Or are you saying that he may have existed but the Biblical accounts are untrustworthy if he did exist?

 

[cstu]

Why would Jesus' family allow Joseph of Arimathea to bury him in his own tomb rather than with the family?

 

[jomar]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

bump for the workday crowd. this is just one instance where stuff like this occurs. another of my favorite was when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress. He has a private conversation with her and then 50-80 (or however many) years later, the conversation is detailed by some author. how did he know what Jesus said? Did Jesus tell someone? did the whore tell someone? or is all of this stuff just fabricated to make the plot of the book a little more interesting?

 

[GeauxTigers]

I believe Jesus existed during the time described.

 

[FavreCo]

You'd think a guy who raised people from the dead, and who himself reappeared after dying, would've received a little more press at the time.

Blame the liberal media.

It was more the lack of good marketing. If they had Jesus bobbleheads, AirJesus shoes, action figures, etc., he would have been a lot bigger.

So would Storage Wars when Darrell digs out a dirty pair of smeakers and proclaims, 'Brandon, do you know what these are? These are AirJesus shoes. We can get $1 bazillion for these. Now that's the wow factor!'

 

[FavreCo]

I believe some dude named Jesus existed during the time described.

Me too. But that is as far as it goes. The rest is just ridiculous.

 

[matuski]

We know King Tut was a real historical person because we found a body.

Those that were crucified were usually left out to rot and for the animals to feed.

Why was Jesus put into a cave blocked by a giant rock?

He wasn't. He didn't exist in the Biblical form.

How is the certainty of your belief that he didn't exist any more founded than the fundamentalist certainty that he did exist? Or are you saying that he may have existed but the Biblical accounts are untrustworthy if he did exist?

Are asking how we can be certain he didn't rise from the dead? That he did not walk on water? That he didn't magically cure the blind/sick?A foundation in common sense trumps any fundamentalists belief that these things happened or that a person that did these things ever existed.

Jesus Christ of the bible has zero foundation (least of all in common sense) or historical backing for having ever existed.

A man named Jesus Christ that wandered the desert preaching? Maybe, I'd even say probably. A Jesus Christ that was born of a virgin, performed exorcisms, and cursed fig-trees? Nope.

 

[shader]

We know King Tut was a real historical person because we found a body.

Those that were crucified were usually left out to rot and for the animals to feed.

Why was Jesus put into a cave blocked by a giant rock?

He wasn't. He didn't exist in the Biblical form.

How is the certainty of your belief that he didn't exist any more founded than the fundamentalist certainty that he did exist? Or are you saying that he may have existed but the Biblical accounts are untrustworthy if he did exist?

Are asking how we can be certain he didn't rise from the dead? That he did not walk on water? That he didn't magically cure the blind/sick?A foundation in common sense trumps any fundamentalists belief that these things happened or that a person that did these things ever existed.

Jesus Christ of the bible has zero foundation (least of all in common sense) or historical backing for having ever existed.

A man named Jesus Christ that wandered the desert preaching? Maybe, I'd even say probably. A Jesus Christ that was born of a virgin, performed exorcisms, and cursed fig-trees? Nope.

First of all he never wandered the desert. Israel was far from it. There is plenty of historic evidence that he existed, if one believes in the bible. If one doesn't, than there still is plenty of evidence that a significantly influential man named Jesus existed and motivated a group of people to change their lives and leave the Jewish faith.

 

[shader]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

bump for the workday crowd. this is just one instance where stuff like this occurs. another of my favorite was when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress. He has a private conversation with her and then 50-80 (or however many) years later, the conversation is detailed by some author. how did he know what Jesus said? Did Jesus tell someone? did the whore tell someone? or is all of this stuff just fabricated to make the plot of the book a little more interesting?

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened. That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I think the existence of so many texts written by different people over a range of time indicates that someone existed. I am not sure what more you expect from someone who lived 2000 years ago and for most of his life was just an unknown child of a carpenter. Not too many video cameras back then.

I expect someone who allegedly had so much impact on the empire to be written about by contemporary scribes of that empire. They recorded the minutiae of the everyday empire business but not someone who caused a stir like this? Unlikely.

I expect that's what early Christians were doing when they were trying to preserve the few written records they had, and it is why monks of the middle ages were so meticulous about transcribing the Bible. I don't expect they thought people would dismiss the Bible out of hand in the future because it would be perceived as a biased source.

 

[Black Box]

Paul doesn't write about a historical Jesus in the sense that Paul doesn't say Jesus did this or Jesus said that. I may be overstating this, but I can't recall a single passage from Paul along those lines. If there are some they are stray comments.

There's a couple of mentions in 1 Corinthians. One dealing with Jesus's death, burial and resurrection (Ch 15). Also the one dealing with what Jesus did during the last supper (Ch 11).There's also some offhand reference to Jesus being in the line of David at the beginning of Romans as well.

There are others, but I do agree with your larger point that Paul seems to assume a background knowledge of Jesus and wasn't concerned with covering it all over again in his letters. But the references are certainly there.

 

[Black Box]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

bump for the workday crowd. this is just one instance where stuff like this occurs. another of my favorite was when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress. He has a private conversation with her and then 50-80 (or however many) years later, the conversation is detailed by some author. how did he know what Jesus said? Did Jesus tell someone? did the whore tell someone? or is all of this stuff just fabricated to make the plot of the book a little more interesting?

We can't really know definitively. All are live options. There are reasonable explanations which Christians will gravitate towards (the people involved told someone), and there are others that skeptics will gravitate towards (it is just made up).

 

[ElGatoLoco]

I was at my inlaw's church today, (Lutheran), and the Pastor made this statement:"We know for a certainty that Jesus existed, and not only that, that he rose from the grave on the third day. These are not beliefs only held by Christians anymore; they are historical facts which have plenty of evidence to back them up. For example, there is eyewitness testimony to these events." Not being a believer myself, I was looking around at this point at the congregation, which was full. I was wondering: how many of them really believe this? Not that Jesus existed and is the Son of God; I'm sure almost all of them believe that, but that there is historical evidence that Jesus rose from the grave? Then again, I couldn't tell if they even listen to the sermon.

Dangerous! 99% of the congregation has had zero education on Biblical history. The majority just believe what they are told. They don't question anything. So disturbing, and dangerous.

Are you really going with that statement as factual? I am just asking because, you know, this whole thread has been about seeking what is true, and what is not true. You might want to back off on the hyperbole a bit. We are not in the middle ages, and you are talking about congregations of people that generally study the Bible at least once or twice a week. They also seek out historical context on the passages in secondary sources. A lot of Christians have questions about a lot of what is written down as well. People are naturally curious, and just because a person may hold a belief doesn't mean it goes unexamined. You are making a huge assumption that all Christians make up some homogeneous group that are all on message. How dangerous is that?!

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think the existence of so many texts written by different people over a range of time indicates that someone existed. I am not sure what more you expect from someone who lived 2000 years ago and for most of his life was just an unknown child of a carpenter. Not too many video cameras back then.

Was Jesus' dad a carpenter, too, or was that a typo?What was the deal with Jesus' family when he was say, 10? Who were his mom and dad?

 

[Chase Stuart]

Many people shared the name. Christ's given name, commonly Romanized as Yeshua, was quite common in first-century Galilee. (Jesus comes from the transliteration of Yeshua into Greek and then English.) Archaeologists have unearthed the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus' death. The name also appears 30 times in the Old Testament in reference to four separate characters—including a descendent of Aaron who helped to distribute offerings of grain (2 Chronicles 31:15) and a man who accompanied former captives of Nebuchadnezzar back to Jerusalem (Ezra 2:2).http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/12/happy_birthday_dear_yeshua_happy_birthday_to_you.htmlSo I'm going to say yes. At some point there was a preacher and his name was Jesus or Yeshua or Horus or whatever people changed the bible to.

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

 

[Joe Summer]

Many people shared the name. Christ's given name, commonly Romanized as Yeshua, was quite common in first-century Galilee. (Jesus comes from the transliteration of Yeshua into Greek and then English.) Archaeologists have unearthed the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus' death. The name also appears 30 times in the Old Testament in reference to four separate characters—including a descendent of Aaron who helped to distribute offerings of grain (2 Chronicles 31:15) and a man who accompanied former captives of Nebuchadnezzar back to Jerusalem (Ezra 2:2).

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/12/happy_birthday_dear_yeshua_happy_birthday_to_you.html

So I'm going to say yes. At some point there was a preacher and his name was Jesus or Yeshua or Horus or whatever people changed the bible to.

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth

-- had the last name Christ

-- and were carpenters?

That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

 

[cstu]

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.

Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened.

That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

Perhaps they didn't benefit materially but you can't deny there's a benefit from being accepted as a dude that hung around with God.

 

[cstu]

I find it strange that Jesus' family didn't pass down stories of him through the generations. I can't imagine that if Jesus was your great uncle that your family wouldn't talk about it.

 

[cstu]

The Biblical account shows that Pilot had no idea who He was until brought before Him to decide on His fate.

This may be a stupid question, but how would anyone have come by the knowledge of how Pilate reacted to Jesus? Did someone do some investigative reporting and interview whoever else was in the room? Did Jesus tell someone as he was carrying his cross or as he was on the cross?Serious question.

bump for the workday crowd. this is just one instance where stuff like this occurs. another of my favorite was when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress. He has a private conversation with her and then 50-80 (or however many) years later, the conversation is detailed by some author. how did he know what Jesus said? Did Jesus tell someone? did the whore tell someone? or is all of this stuff just fabricated to make the plot of the book a little more interesting?

What can I say, he was a bit of braggart.

 

[Chaka]

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.

Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened.

That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

Perhaps they didn't benefit materially but you can't deny there's a benefit from being accepted as a dude that hung around with God.

Yeah I think there are many motivations to fabricate events. I am not saying this is the case but this could have been the first Scientology scam.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

Nazareth may not have existed during the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The idea that he was from there came from the Greeks, who couldn't tell the difference between the Aramaic words for Nazareth and Nazarene."Christ," of course, is not a surname, but a title. It means "Messiah."

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

Nazareth may not have existed during the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The idea that he was from there came from Greeks, who couldn't tell the difference between the Aramaic words for Nazareth and Nazarene."Christ," of course, is not a surname, but a title. It means "Messiah."

Next you will tell us H was not his middle initial.

 

[shader]

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.

Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened.

That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

Perhaps they didn't benefit materially but you can't deny there's a benefit from being accepted as a dude that hung around with God.

They lived in a Jewish world, and we're viciously persecuted. Many of the original apostles were killed. I fail to see the benefits.

 

[shader]

I find it strange that Jesus' family didn't pass down stories of him through the generations. I can't imagine that if Jesus was your great uncle that your family wouldn't talk about it.

I'm sure they did.

 

[shader]

I think the existence of so many texts written by different people over a range of time indicates that someone existed. I am not sure what more you expect from someone who lived 2000 years ago and for most of his life was just an unknown child of a carpenter. Not too many video cameras back then.

I expect someone who allegedly had so much impact on the empire to be written about by contemporary scribes of that empire. They recorded the minutiae of the everyday empire business but not someone who caused a stir like this? Unlikely.

I expect that's what early Christians were doing when they were trying to preserve the few written records they had, and it is why monks of the middle ages were so meticulous about transcribing the Bible. I don't expect they thought people would dismiss the Bible out of hand in the future because it would be perceived as a biased source.

You can't use any religious writings of any kind. They don't count. Seriously though, the destruction of Jerusalem did away with the historical records that the Jewish community were very meticulous about.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.

Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened.

That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

Perhaps they didn't benefit materially but you can't deny there's a benefit from being accepted as a dude that hung around with God.

They lived in a Jewish world, and we're viciously persecuted. Many of the original apostles were killed. I fail to see the benefits.

What benefits did Jim Jones' apostles get?

 

[shader]

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

Nazareth may not have existed during the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The idea that he was from there came from Greeks, who couldn't tell the difference between the Aramaic words for Nazareth and Nazarene."Christ," of course, is not a surname, but a title. It means "Messiah."

Some scholars agree with your first paragraph, but many do not. To act as if it is the blanket truth is a little bit misleading.Also, I doubt the bible writers would create a village out of thin air. If they were writing a book that would sound plausible, using real places would seem important. It's quite ridiculous to think Nazareth didn't exist when the bible was written. As frequently happens with people and places of the bible, the bible often precedes the uncovering of "non-biblical" corroborating evidence by archaeologists.

 

[shader]

There were no motivations to "fabricate" things. These guys weren't in it for material gain.

Most likely Jesus shared events with his apostles. After all, they walked everywhere they went. I'm sure they discussed almost everything that happened.

That being said, if the bible is inspired, this stuff shouldn't bother you. If its not, this thread is a waste of all of our time.

Perhaps they didn't benefit materially but you can't deny there's a benefit from being accepted as a dude that hung around with God.

They lived in a Jewish world, and we're viciously persecuted. Many of the original apostles were killed. I fail to see the benefits.

What benefits did Jim Jones' apostles get?

Was Jim Jones not a real person? I don't follow.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Who believes there was never even a preacher named Jesus during the time described?

I think even most atheists would concede there was a historical Jesus

What counts as a historical Jesus?Anyone named Yeshua who lived between 100 BC and 100 AD? There were lots and lots of historical Jesuses.

Or anyone who died and rose again three days later to be seated at the right and of the creator of the universe? I don't think any atheists would concede that such a person existed.

Or something in between? What does it take?

I think the point is that the person known as Jesus Christ, of which the Christian religion is focused on, was indeed a very real person.

That wasn't my point. My point was that whether a historical Jesus existed is not simply a matter of fact, but is, as much as anything else, a matter of taste."Historical Jesus" isn't a proper name; it's a description. But it means different things to different people, and none of them is uniquely correct.

There are about 100 things that the Bible tells us about Jesus. We know that at least some of them are true of lots of historical people (for example, the name "Jesus"), but that doesn't mean that all such people are historical Jesuses. And we know that not all of them are true of any single person (since some of them are contradictory), but that doesn't mean that there was no historical Jesus.

The question is: How many of those 100 things must be true about a person in order for that person to qualify as a historical Jesus? Maybe if fifty of them have to be true, then there was no historical Jesus; while if only ten of them have to be true, there were three different historical Jesuses. The thing is, whether fifty is a more appropriate benchmark than ten (or vice versa) isn't a matter of fact; it's a matter of opinion — of taste.

The question — did a historical Jesus exist? — cannot be answered until after we stipulate what it would take to qualify. (And it may not be a simple matter of counting up how many things a person has in common with the Biblical Jesus, because some things may be more important than others, so perhaps we should weight them all by their relative importance.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

Nazareth may not have existed during the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The idea that he was from there came from Greeks, who couldn't tell the difference between the Aramaic words for Nazareth and Nazarene."Christ," of course, is not a surname, but a title. It means "Messiah."

Some scholars agree with your first paragraph, but many do not. To act as if it is the blanket truth is a little bit misleading.

Note the "may" in my first sentence. (My second sentence was meant to be read in the same spirit. My bad if it sounded definitive rather than cautious.)

Also, I doubt the bible writers would create a village out of thin air. If they were writing a book that would sound plausible, using real places would seem important. It's quite ridiculous to think Nazareth didn't exist when the bible was written.

1. "The time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth" ≠ "when the Bible was written."2. Who said they created it out of thin air? If they thought "Jesus the Nazarene" said "Jesus of Nazareth," they would have thought Nazareth was a real place (even if it weren't).

 

[shader]

Who believes there was never even a preacher named Jesus during the time described?

I think even most atheists would concede there was a historical Jesus

What counts as a historical Jesus?Anyone named Yeshua who lived between 100 BC and 100 AD? There were lots and lots of historical Jesuses.

Or anyone who died and rose again three days later to be seated at the right and of the creator of the universe? I don't think any atheists would concede that such a person existed.

Or something in between? What does it take?

I think the point is that the person known as Jesus Christ, of which the Christian religion is focused on, was indeed a very real person.

That wasn't my point. My point was that whether a historical Jesus existed is not simply a matter of fact, but is, as much as anything else, a matter of taste."Historical Jesus" isn't a proper name; it's a description. But it means different things to different people, and none of them is uniquely correct.

There are about 100 things that the Bible tells us about Jesus. We know that at least some of them are true of lots of historical people (for example, the name "Jesus"), but that doesn't mean that all such people are historical Jesuses. And we know that not all of them are true of any single person (since some of them are contradictory), but that doesn't mean that there was no historical Jesus.

The question is: How many of those 100 things must be true about a person in order for that person to qualify as a historical Jesus? Maybe if fifty of them have to be true, then there was no historical Jesus; while if only ten of them have to be true, there were three different historical Jesuses. The thing is, whether fifty is a more appropriate benchmark than ten (or vice versa) isn't a matter of fact; it's a matter of opinion — of taste.

The question — did a historical Jesus exist? — cannot be answered until after we stipulate what it would take to qualify. (And it may not be a simple matter of counting up how many things a person has in common with the Biblical Jesus, because some things may be more important than others, so perhaps we should weight them all by their relative importance.)

I tend to agree. Jesus life and death have no value to me unless the bibles description is true.

 

[jamny]

Where could the starting point of Christianity have originated from if not from a singular person? Even if the stories were a compilation of different events, someone had to affix it to a person and give that person a name.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Where could the starting point of Christianity have originated from if not from a singular person?

It could have come partially from a combination of real events from the lives of various real people, and partially from fictional sources.For example, the story of a preacher in Galilee whose followers thought he was the Messiah and who got crucified by the Romans could have been based on Yehuda of Galilee. And the story of a Nazarene named Jesus whom the Jewish leadership got mad at and executed could have come from Yeshua ben Pandera. Maybe the bit about the resurrection came from Osiris. Etc.

Even if the stories were a compilation of different events, someone had to affix it to a person and give that person a name.

That seems like the easy part. Combining aspects of several different stories to form a composite seems natural in the context of oral storytelling tradition.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I guess the question is how many people named Jesus lived during that timeframe and-- lived in Nazareth-- had the last name Christ-- and were carpenters?That would narrow things considerably, I think. How many people could have been living in Nazareth during that time frame? According to google, it's under 1000. I would think there would have been only one person to meet the above criteria, if any.

Nazareth may not have existed during the time that Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth. The idea that he was from there came from the Greeks, who couldn't tell the difference between the Aramaic words for Nazareth and Nazarene."Christ," of course, is not a surname, but a title. It means "Messiah."

If there were no Jesus Christs walking around Nazareth with a hammer, I'm calling on the whole thing.

 

[matuski]

Where could the starting point of Christianity have originated from if not from a singular person? Even if the stories were a compilation of different events, someone had to affix it to a person and give that person a name.

If I'm not mistaken just about nothing of Christianity is original. Most can be found in previous religion/mythology. Especially the traditions.

 

[cstu]

Where could the starting point of Christianity have originated from if not from a singular person?

It could have come partially from a combination of real events from the lives of various real people, and partially from fictional sources.For example, the story of a preacher in Galilee whose followers thought he was the Messiah and who got crucified by the Romans could have been based on Yehuda of Galilee. And the story of a Nazarene named Jesus whom the Jewish leadership got mad at and executed could have come from Yeshua ben Pandera. Maybe the bit about the resurrection came from Osiris. Etc.

This passage explains why it was necessary to include a story of his resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:14-17 And if Christ has not been raised , our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we [the apostles] are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised , then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

 

[cstu]

Why would Jesus' family allow Joseph of Arimathea to bury him in his own tomb rather than with the family?

Was this guy actually Jesus' uncle (Mary's brother)? I had read that the reason he was in charge of Jesus' burial is that he was the adopted father since Mary's husband Joseph wasn't his real father.

 

[jamny]

Where could the starting point of Christianity have originated from if not from a singular person?

It could have come partially from a combination of real events from the lives of various real people, and partially from fictional sources.For example, the story of a preacher in Galilee whose followers thought he was the Messiah and who got crucified by the Romans could have been based on Yehuda of Galilee. And the story of a Nazarene named Jesus whom the Jewish leadership got mad at and executed could have come from Yeshua ben Pandera. Maybe the bit about the resurrection came from Osiris. Etc.

Even if the stories were a compilation of different events, someone had to affix it to a person and give that person a name.

That seems like the easy part. Combining aspects of several different stories to form a composite seems natural in the context of oral storytelling tradition.

But wouldn't it make more sense to attach it to a person who actually existed to give it some kind of authenticity? It's not like Egyptian gods that dated thousands of years in the past. Even if it was 50 years after his death, there might be someone still alive that could verify his existance. Could it really survive and thrive if no one ever was sure that he actually lived?

 

[wikkidpissah]

Jesus!