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Jets @ Bucs - Preseason Game (1 Viewer)

Cedric Houston just checked in.

Three strong runs so far from Houston. Guy is gaining positive yardage after contact and fighting up the middle. Looking good.

 
Pennington was just absolutely mauled via blitz on third and goal, coughed it up.

So far, he still looks like total ####. Ramsey by week 4.

 
Pennington fumbles on a sack in the redzone versus the Buccaneers 2nd defense.

There's the Bucs and then there's all the other teams.

 
packersfan said:
Just checking the Live Scoring but it looks like quite a few targets for Coles in the first quarter.
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Coles is good for 80+ catches, but he'll only average 11 yds per catch or so. And maybe 5 TD's. Not a good year for the Jets' passing game.
 
I am watching now, but missed Simms on TV (listening to Mean Gene).

How did he look? More decisive than last year? In command of the O?

With Simms, talent doesn't concern me...it's pocket presence and command of the offense.

 
looks liek Tim Dwight is the #2WR rightnowif anyone cares. McCairens should be scratched off all cheatsheets if he somehow made it on one.

Blalock dances a lot and in the few runs Houston had he made more of them. Seems more like a Magini type of back. The O-line looked decent vs. the TB 1st team. Back to the Met game.....

 
The Bucs OL looks great.

Bucs O has been throwing deep balls all TC, nothing attempted attempted beyond about 8 yards IIRC.

Pittman looks bad.

Graham looks like a solid backup (as last preseason).

Winborn looked good.

Ruud looks like a stud.

DeWayne White looks like a stud. (Not sure why he wasn't starting over Spires...)

Cotchery looks pretty average, but best of the Jets WRs.

Coles looks slow and bad.

Bucs D is swarming again like they were in '02.

Rattay looks bad.

Clemens looks great.

Jets D pretty impressive.

The Pennington sack/fumble was Houston's fault. He clearly whiffed his block and Chad paid for it.

Overall:

Bucs OL - :thumbup: looks great. Wouldn't even know there were two rookies starting on the weak side.

Bucs O - :shrug: didn't get to see much of the real O

Bucs D - :shock: faster than I expected to see. Even the 2nd unit was explosive.

Jets O - :thumbup: ball control was superior, and they moved pretty steadily.

Jets D - :thumbup: pretty impressive. I said it before that they have great personnel to run the 3-4 and not miss a beat.

Overall, this game looks much better for both teams than the 3-3 indicates.

 
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Looks like the offense will have a hard time getting anywhere - I hope Nugent will make the most of his opportunities

 
msommer said:
Looks like the offense will have a hard time getting anywhere - I hope Nugent will make the most of his opportunities
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They were slow to move for sure, but they ate up a lot of clock, and really should have been up 6-3 at the half.It was impressive considering it was a new offense going up against the vaunted T2D (starters or not).I give them props for simply sustaining three drives that long.
 
Just got back from Ray Jay... Pretty much agree with everything MLB said, but I thought Pitt looked ok. Hell, as long as he doesn't fumble he is looking good in my book. :D

Nice catch by Stovall :thumbup: :banned: ,and I really liked Barett Ruud :thumbup:

Oh, and Gradkowski could have mucho value if Simms goes out. Looking very good so far :thumbup: :popcorn:

And my boy Xavier Betia missed an extra point :bag: He doesn't have much of a chance making the team anyways... He was a very good friend of mine in high school, but I had to cut him off as a Noles fan :D

 
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Other players are honestly scared of DB...won't go near him at the post-game group hug.

He is no doubt the most respected player in the NFL right now.

 
QUEZILLA said:
Just got back from Ray Jay... Pretty much agree with everything MLB said, but I thought Pitt looked ok. Hell, as long as he doesn't fumble he is looking good in my book. :D

Nice catch by Stovall :thumbup: :banned: ,and I really liked Barett Ruud :thumbup:

Oh, and Gradkowski could have mucho value if Simms goes out. Looking very good so far :thumbup: :popcorn:

And my boy Xavier Betia missed an extra point :bag: He doesn't have much of a chance making the team anyways... He was a very good friend of mine in high school, but I had to cut him off as a Noles fan :D
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He did fumble. I'm not sure what happened with that challenge there. He didn't even get hit, just dropped the ball, and it was clearly out before he hit the ground. I think the reason the Bucs kept it was because they couldn't see who clearly had posession of the ball on the ground before the play was dead, so they stuck with their ruling.Honestly, Pittman looked okay. The problem is you're not going to run outside on a 34 defense with much success. It's easy to beat DEs to the sidelines, but a lot harder to beat OLBs to the sidelines IMO. That extra couple yards out in the setups made it much more difficult to do what he does with any amount of success.

That said, he's in no danger of losing his backup role to Graham ;) . But it does look like Graham is playing well enough these past few preseasons and in camp that they won't bother re-signing Pittman after this season.

 
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I've heard that Gradkowski might be close to a lock for #2 (at least until Fiedler returns). His numbers looked good, but how did he really look?

This is more for dynasty purposes. I know Simms will almost assuredly be the man at least this year.

 
Dave Baker said:
I've heard that Gradkowski might be close to a lock for #2 (at least until Fiedler returns). His numbers looked good, but how did he really look?This is more for dynasty purposes. I know Simms will almost assuredly be the man at least this year.
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Gradkowski will be #2 :yes: Pretty imressive for a rookie to pick Grudens O so quick. :thumbup:
 
MLBrandow said:
QUEZILLA said:
Just got back from Ray Jay... Pretty much agree with everything MLB said, but I thought Pitt looked ok. Hell, as long as he doesn't fumble he is looking good in my book. :D

Nice catch by Stovall :thumbup: :banned: ,and I really liked Barett Ruud :thumbup:

Oh, and Gradkowski could have mucho value if Simms goes out. Looking very good so far :thumbup: :popcorn:

And my boy Xavier Betia missed an extra point :bag: He doesn't have much of a chance making the team anyways... He was a very good friend of mine in high school, but I had to cut him off as a Noles fan :D
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He did fumble. I'm not sure what happened with that challenge there. He didn't even get hit, just dropped the ball, and it was clearly out before he hit the ground. I think the reason the Bucs kept it was because they couldn't see who clearly had posession of the ball on the ground before the play was dead, so they stuck with their ruling.Honestly, Pittman looked okay. The problem is you're not going to run outside on a 34 defense with much success. It's easy to beat DEs to the sidelines, but a lot harder to beat OLBs to the sidelines IMO. That extra couple yards out in the setups made it much more difficult to do what he does with any amount of success.

That said, he's in no danger of losing his backup role to Graham ;) . But it does look like Graham is playing well enough these past few preseasons and in camp that they won't bother re-signing Pittman after this season.
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I was talkig to my friend when we got back, and he also reminded me about the fumble. Must have been either pissing or buying :banned: Going to the game has it's pros and cons... I seem to follow the game much closer when I am warching on tv.
 
Bojang0301 said:
:goodposting:
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Otis usually has some good info. Don't see why you'd ignore him.Pennington did look like crap. The play-calling made him look decent. It's hard to miss when you're throwing 5 yard bombs.You would take random Jets homers over a reg here?Why spam about ignoring him?You're pretty worthless for posting this. I blame you for all the overusage of the word "guppy" in this forum. :ph34r:
 
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Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list.

Otis seems to have an ax, and it needs grinding. JMO

The Jets seem to have adapted to the new 3-4 better and faster than I expected. Bryan Thomas had a very good game at OLB. Vilma got swallowed up some. Hobson was also playing very well on the other side at OLB.

Houston is the only guy on the roster that has the potential to be a feature RB. Blaylock.... just sucks. Washington is better in every aspect as a CoP RB vs. Blaylock. The Jets O line isn't very good yet.... but the biggest problem seems to be the right side, Jones at RT and Moore at RG. That is where the pressure came from.

Tim Dwight may well be the Jets second leading WR after Coles when all is said and done. That isn't just based on this game, but having watched six practitces at Hofstra as well. If Blaylock is the starter over Houston come week 1, I will have serious doubts about Mangini. That is my take, obviously in driect conflict with Otis.

 
Rovers said:
Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list. Otis seems to have an ax, and it needs grinding. JMOThe Jets seem to have adapted to the new 3-4 better and faster than I expected. Bryan Thomas had a very good game at OLB. Vilma got swallowed up some. Hobson was also playing very well on the other side at OLB. Houston is the only guy on the roster that has the potential to be a feature RB. Blaylock.... just sucks. Washington is better in every aspect as a CoP RB vs. Blaylock. The Jets O line isn't very good yet.... but the biggest problem seems to be the right side, Jones at RT and Moore at RG. That is where the pressure came from. Tim Dwight may well be the Jets second leading WR after Coles when all is said and done. That isn't just based on this game, but having watched six practitces at Hofstra as well. If Blaylock is the starter over Houston come week 1, I will have serious doubts about Mangini. That is my take, obviously in driect conflict with Otis.
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Let's put things in perspective. We saw Blaylock for six carries. Thomas Jones, in his first six carries against TB last year, also had 12 rushing yards. Here's my evaluation:Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to. He floated a few balls, and seemed to get worse as the game went on. That's more likely the result of a small sample size then him tiring, but I wasn't thrilled with his performance. He wasn't placing the ball in the perfect spot, which he needs to do given his weaker arm. Blaylock -- pretty dissapointing. Didn't break any tackles or show any burst.Coles -- I thought he looked good. Came up with a nice third and 10 catch. Coles is very reliable, and pretty clearly the Jets best offensive player.Dwight -- very good. He's not as good as he looked, but he looked excellent tonight.Cotchery -- in limited action, also very good.Baker -- would have liked to have seen him used more. Looked alright.Houston -- looked ok. Hard to judge on so few carries, but he did seem to have more burst than he did last year.Clemens -- looked strong and confident. Of course, rookie QBs often have very good pre-seasons. He went against second stringers, as rookie QBs often do.Schottenheimer -- I liked the offense a lot. The Jets will be shifting at the LOS, which is a nice twist. The Jets didn't have the braintrust to do that in recent years. The Jets have guys who are versatile (Baker can be a FB or a WR; Askew can be a TE or a WR, etc) and that will make it a little harder for the defenses to keep track of things. I also thought the specific play-calling was good. Probably the best thing I saw today was Schottenheimer.
 
Chase Stuart said:
Rovers said:
Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list. Otis seems to have an ax, and it needs grinding. JMOThe Jets seem to have adapted to the new 3-4 better and faster than I expected. Bryan Thomas had a very good game at OLB. Vilma got swallowed up some. Hobson was also playing very well on the other side at OLB. Houston is the only guy on the roster that has the potential to be a feature RB. Blaylock.... just sucks. Washington is better in every aspect as a CoP RB vs. Blaylock. The Jets O line isn't very good yet.... but the biggest problem seems to be the right side, Jones at RT and Moore at RG. That is where the pressure came from. Tim Dwight may well be the Jets second leading WR after Coles when all is said and done. That isn't just based on this game, but having watched six practitces at Hofstra as well. If Blaylock is the starter over Houston come week 1, I will have serious doubts about Mangini. That is my take, obviously in driect conflict with Otis.
Click to expand...
Let's put things in perspective. We saw Blaylock for six carries. Thomas Jones, in his first six carries against TB last year, also had 12 rushing yards. Here's my evaluation:Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to. He floated a few balls, and seemed to get worse as the game went on. That's more likely the result of a small sample size then him tiring, but I wasn't thrilled with his performance. He wasn't placing the ball in the perfect spot, which he needs to do given his weaker arm. Blaylock -- pretty dissapointing. Didn't break any tackles or show any burst.Coles -- I thought he looked good. Came up with a nice third and 10 catch. Coles is very reliable, and pretty clearly the Jets best offensive player.Dwight -- very good. He's not as good as he looked, but he looked excellent tonight.Cotchery -- in limited action, also very good.Baker -- would have liked to have seen him used more. Looked alright.Houston -- looked ok. Hard to judge on so few carries, but he did seem to have more burst than he did last year.Clemens -- looked strong and confident. Of course, rookie QBs often have very good pre-seasons. He went against second stringers, as rookie QBs often do.Schottenheimer -- I liked the offense a lot. The Jets will be shifting at the LOS, which is a nice twist. The Jets didn't have the braintrust to do that in recent years. The Jets have guys who are versatile (Baker can be a FB or a WR; Askew can be a TE or a WR, etc) and that will make it a little harder for the defenses to keep track of things. I also thought the specific play-calling was good. Probably the best thing I saw today was Schottenheimer.
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Brad Smith?
 
Rovers said:
Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list. Otis seems to have an ax, and it needs grinding. JMOThe Jets seem to have adapted to the new 3-4 better and faster than I expected. Bryan Thomas had a very good game at OLB. Vilma got swallowed up some. Hobson was also playing very well on the other side at OLB. Houston is the only guy on the roster that has the potential to be a feature RB. Blaylock.... just sucks. Washington is better in every aspect as a CoP RB vs. Blaylock. The Jets O line isn't very good yet.... but the biggest problem seems to be the right side, Jones at RT and Moore at RG. That is where the pressure came from. Tim Dwight may well be the Jets second leading WR after Coles when all is said and done. That isn't just based on this game, but having watched six practitces at Hofstra as well. If Blaylock is the starter over Houston come week 1, I will have serious doubts about Mangini. That is my take, obviously in driect conflict with Otis.
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Question my credibility all you want -- how many deep throws did Pennington even attempt?That arm is as bad as ever. His accuracy was decent -- within 10 yards.He is not a good NFL quarterback anymore. I'm sorry.
 
EBF said:
Chase Stuart said:
Rovers said:
Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list. Otis seems to have an ax, and it needs grinding. JMOThe Jets seem to have adapted to the new 3-4 better and faster than I expected. Bryan Thomas had a very good game at OLB. Vilma got swallowed up some. Hobson was also playing very well on the other side at OLB. Houston is the only guy on the roster that has the potential to be a feature RB. Blaylock.... just sucks. Washington is better in every aspect as a CoP RB vs. Blaylock. The Jets O line isn't very good yet.... but the biggest problem seems to be the right side, Jones at RT and Moore at RG. That is where the pressure came from. Tim Dwight may well be the Jets second leading WR after Coles when all is said and done. That isn't just based on this game, but having watched six practitces at Hofstra as well. If Blaylock is the starter over Houston come week 1, I will have serious doubts about Mangini. That is my take, obviously in driect conflict with Otis.
Click to expand...
Let's put things in perspective. We saw Blaylock for six carries. Thomas Jones, in his first six carries against TB last year, also had 12 rushing yards. Here's my evaluation:Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to. He floated a few balls, and seemed to get worse as the game went on. That's more likely the result of a small sample size then him tiring, but I wasn't thrilled with his performance. He wasn't placing the ball in the perfect spot, which he needs to do given his weaker arm. Blaylock -- pretty dissapointing. Didn't break any tackles or show any burst.Coles -- I thought he looked good. Came up with a nice third and 10 catch. Coles is very reliable, and pretty clearly the Jets best offensive player.Dwight -- very good. He's not as good as he looked, but he looked excellent tonight.Cotchery -- in limited action, also very good.Baker -- would have liked to have seen him used more. Looked alright.Houston -- looked ok. Hard to judge on so few carries, but he did seem to have more burst than he did last year.Clemens -- looked strong and confident. Of course, rookie QBs often have very good pre-seasons. He went against second stringers, as rookie QBs often do.Schottenheimer -- I liked the offense a lot. The Jets will be shifting at the LOS, which is a nice twist. The Jets didn't have the braintrust to do that in recent years. The Jets have guys who are versatile (Baker can be a FB or a WR; Askew can be a TE or a WR, etc) and that will make it a little harder for the defenses to keep track of things. I also thought the specific play-calling was good. Probably the best thing I saw today was Schottenheimer.
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Brad Smith?
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Didn't see him play. According to the boxscore he had 3/13.This brings up one other point. I thought the Jets offense did real well, especially when you consider the opponent. But TB was absolutely stacking the line. Considering how both safeties were no more than 8 yards from the LOS on any given play, the Jets ability to methodically move the chains was impressive. But Schottenheimer absolutely has to call some deep plays to stretch the field. Pennington can lob it out of bounds for all I care, the threat is needed. If the Jets don't throw deep at least a few times a game, I doubt they'll have much success with the short-yardage game.
 
Chase Stuart said:
Let's put things in perspective. We saw Blaylock for six carries. Thomas Jones, in his first six carries against TB last year, also had 12 rushing yards.

Here's my evaluation:

Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to. He floated a few balls, and seemed to get worse as the game went on. That's more likely the result of a small sample size then him tiring, but I wasn't thrilled with his performance. He wasn't placing the ball in the perfect spot, which he needs to do given his weaker arm.

Agreed 100%. Sorry, but those passes did not inspire confidence. I don't know how anybody can sit here and tell me that Penny looked 'awesome'. As a Penny fan, I'm disappointed.

Blaylock -- pretty dissapointing. Didn't break any tackles or show any burst.

Lord help us if he is our starting RB this year

Coles -- I thought he looked good. Came up with a nice third and 10 catch. Coles is very reliable, and pretty clearly the Jets best offensive player.

Agreed again. Expect the usual numbers out of Coles..80 catches, 1000 yards and 5-6 TDs.

Dwight -- very good. He's not as good as he looked, but he looked excellent tonight.

Definitely liked what I saw; reminds me of Chrebet. Wondering if he is going to remain this involved in the offense. If he does, a bump in numbers is in order.

Cotchery -- in limited action, also very good.



Liked what I saw out of Cotcherry. Targeted 2x in the end zone, both fades. VERY crisp, precise routes and nice hands. You can tell he's been staying after with the QBs.

Baker -- would have liked to have seen him used more. Looked alright.

Not really enough action for any sort of opinion

Houston -- looked ok. Hard to judge on so few carries, but he did seem to have more burst than he did last year.

Eh. He looked okay; certainly better than Blaylock. Not as high on him as I once was. Still, a limited stint tonight.

Clemens -- looked strong and confident. Of course, rookie QBs often have very good pre-seasons. He went against second stringers, as rookie QBs often do.

This made my night. By far, the best overall performance of any of the Jets QBs. Great control of the 2-minute drill at the end of the 1st half. Loved him throwing the ball into the ground to allow the FG team enough time to kick. I'm going to dig up all of the scouting reports that said this kid had a weak arm and mail the authors contact lenses. Very nice zip on the ball and accurate. Throws were on the money, when they were supposed to be there, where the receiver could catch it. This kid will be starting by 2007 at the latest. Write it in ink, not pencil.

Schottenheimer -- I liked the offense a lot. The Jets will be shifting at the LOS, which is a nice twist. The Jets didn't have the braintrust to do that in recent years. The Jets have guys who are versatile (Baker can be a FB or a WR; Askew can be a TE or a WR, etc) and that will make it a little harder for the defenses to keep track of things. I also thought the specific play-calling was good. Probably the best thing I saw today was Schottenheimer.

After suffering through Paul Hackett's 'offense' these last few years, and the debacle that was 2005, it was very refreshing to see the Jets running a modern offense. No more ######ed draw plays to Curtis on 3rd and 11. 4 wide a few times on the first series. Quite a bit of shifting. Reverse to Dwight. Would have liked to see more balls thrown downfield, but you can see a lot of Spread Offense influence here. I think this offense is going to be a lot of fun to watch provided the line can run-block better than they did this evening.
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Chase Stuart said:
Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to.
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:shock: You mean it looks weaker than it ever did? Not good. When "limp" is the baseline and it looks weaker than that, I can't see how you can be an effective NFL QB regardless of how accurate you are.
 
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Did D-brick play and is he everything as advertised? How is his run/pass blocking? Also was Mangold playing?

 
Rovers said:
Jet homer, but to say Pennington looked like chit is as bogus a statement as one could make. No he didn't make a deep throw, but his stuff was crisp and sharp on the short stuff, and he Marched the team down the field. Pennington went 5 for 5 on that short out stuff to start the game. Those passes had plenty of zip and he went 9 for 14 for 90 yards. Yeah.... he looked like chit. Bulldork he did. And THAT was with having the crippling effect of having Blaylock as his RB. He had the ball stripped inside the ten on a blitz that wasn't picked up.... they were about to put up a six. Pennington took some hits.... and got up. That is the issue with him now, not arm strength, Otis is now on my questionable credibilty list.
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Here's the way I see this. There are three basic ways to view Pennington's performance:1) Positively - he's back on the field in his first "live" play in a long time, and he looked relatively comfortable and completed some passes. 2) Neutrally - it's nice that he's back but there's just not enough information right now to grade him because of how conservative the game plan was; let's watch and wait. 3) Negatively - He failed to attempt any deep passes and the passes he did complete either lacked zip or were so short it didn't matter. I'm probably in the neutral camp, but have my doubts. I didn't see the game but the highlights I saw reminded me of Danny Wuerffel to be honest - a good mind for the game and good field vision, but the field is only 15 yards long when he's playing QB. Maybe they're just trying to build him up, but until I start seeing 20+ yard outs that are on time and on target, I have to suspect that they're protecting him for a reason.
 
radballs said:
Chase Stuart said:
Pennington -- looked ok. He was accurate but the arm didn't look as strong as it used to.
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:shock: You mean it looks weaker than it ever did? Not good. When "limp" is the baseline and it looks weaker than that, I can't see how you can be an effective NFL QB regardless of how accurate you are.
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The worst part about that if you're a Jets fan is watching him execute. He's still a great mental Quarterback. He went through his reads very well, delivered the ball to the best option, etc. If he could put any zip on the ball, he'd still be as good as he was in '03.The problem was that arm though. If this is the best Chad can do, I am worrisome about how much money the Saints may have wasted on Drew Brees, who has also been throwing ducks in camp.

 
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