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I imagine that Matt Flynn trade rumors will be gaining some momentum with this hire.
They needed someone to handle the cap situation. Rex Ryan makes the personnel decisions. Also, please keep in mind this is the Jets we are discussing here.'ImTheScientist said:What I don't get is you fire a "cap guy" only to hire a "cap guy". Idzik was allowed in on meetings with Pete and John but was not involved in player talent evaluation. He doesn't have scouting experience.....just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Are we certain this is accurate?From what I've heard he was involved in personnel decisions and heavily involved in putting together the Buc's recent super bowl team, as well as the Cardinals'. With the Seahawks he recently spent time on the road and involved in scouting with the Seahawks.'ImTheScientist said:What I don't get is you fire a "cap guy" only to hire a "cap guy". Idzik was allowed in on meetings with Pete and John but was not involved in player talent evaluation. He doesn't have scouting experience.....just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Not gonna happen. They had such a hard time getting someone to take the job (or at least were forced to be more patient then most teams) because Rex is untouchable right now. He's grandfathered into the new regime for better or worse.
Not his call.
Yes, exactly.
Agreed, circus will continue until Woody takes a step aside and lets football people run his business,
Please feel free to provide links to all of the folks that the Jets made offers to that turned them down. Even Caldwell, who they initially wanted, was never made an offer.
Okay, we'll go with the Jets' GM job being a desirable one. Every candidate wants to walk into a job where they are undermined before they even sign on the dotted line.
and how exactly is the GM being undermined? Because an existing coach was already in place?
Okay, we'll go with the Jets' GM job being a desirable one. Every candidate wants to walk into a job where they are undermined before they even sign on the dotted line.
Hiring the GM after the coach (or coaching staff) is almost always the wrong way to go. That's not to say it can't work out, but generally not many guys in high demand jump on the opportunity to have their HC dictated to them. That's either the owner saying that he's actually in charge of football decisions, or that the HC is actually in charge of football decisions. It's not an ideal situation. This isn't really groundbreaking stuff. Not many HC's or owners have long-term success when they have full authority over personnel decisions. And because of that, unless you think Rex Ryan is going to morph into the next Belichick, or even Belichick-Lite, most fans despise the idea of forcing a HC on the new GM, because of the hierarchy within the team's power structure that such a move implies.and how exactly is the GM being undermined? Because an existing coach was already in place?
Okay, we'll go with the Jets' GM job being a desirable one. Every candidate wants to walk into a job where they are undermined before they even sign on the dotted line.
That's what you are leading with? For an organization to be successful, any time a GM is hired, any exiting head coache should be fired in advance of the GM being hired regardless of the success the existing coach has had? Does that happen sometimes? Sure, but it's not the end all be all and it doesn't make a position any less desirable. There have been numerous instances were a new GM has been hired with an existing coach that have been very successful. Some work, some don't (just like when a new GM hires a new coach - some work, some don't). To say that an existing HC is in charge over a new GM is naive at best.Hiring the GM after the coach (or coaching staff) is always the wrong way to go. That's not to say it can't work out, but generally not many guys in high demand jump on the opportunity to have their HC dictated to them. That's either the owner saying that he's actually in charge of football decisions, or that the HC is actually in charge of football decisions. It's not an ideal situation. This isn't really groundbreaking stuff.and how exactly is the GM being undermined? Because an existing coach was already in place?
Okay, we'll go with the Jets' GM job being a desirable one. Every candidate wants to walk into a job where they are undermined before they even sign on the dotted line.
Kinda hard to respond to you if you keep editing.
I'll disagree with you that most fans despise the idea of forcing a HC on a new GM - what fans really care about is whether or not the pieces that are put together are sufficient enough to guarantee a successful organization (and a few championships along the way). Ryan doesn't need to turn into the next Belichick - he's done well enough in his time as the Jets coach. Folks act like Ryan has gone 3-13 in each of his past four seasons when in reality, he has the 13th most wins in the league over his four years (not including his playoff wins).
Way to back up your statements with facts.
No, any time a new GM is hired, ideally they at least have the option of choosing the fate of the existing staff. That's how the vast majority of healthy organizations are run. The fact that a new GM couldn't fire the HC even if he wanted to, pretty much by definition, means that there is someone with final say above him--either that HC or the owner. And again, that's almost always a recipe for failure. And, yes, I'm the naive one here. It's not the poster flat denying the fact that forcing Rex onto the new GM, or more likely hiring a GM specifically that would work with him, spells out the reality of the hierarchy. Come on.That's what you are leading with? For an organization to be successful, any time a GM is hired, any exiting head coache should be fired in advance of the GM being hired regardless of the success the existing coach has had? Does that happen sometimes? Sure, but it's not the end all be all and it doesn't make a position any less desirable. There have been numerous instances were a new GM has been hired with an existing coach that have been very successful. Some work, some don't (just like when a new GM hires a new coach - some work, some don't).Hiring the GM after the coach (or coaching staff) is always the wrong way to go. That's not to say it can't work out, but generally not many guys in high demand jump on the opportunity to have their HC dictated to them. That's either the owner saying that he's actually in charge of football decisions, or that the HC is actually in charge of football decisions. It's not an ideal situation. This isn't really groundbreaking stuff.and how exactly is the GM being undermined? Because an existing coach was already in place?
Okay, we'll go with the Jets' GM job being a desirable one. Every candidate wants to walk into a job where they are undermined before they even sign on the dotted line.
To say that an existing HC is in charge over a new GM is naive at best.
I appreciate the discussion, but I just fully disagree. I can't believe you're actually taking the stance that a meddling owner putting a restriction on the GM job before one is even hired, is good for the organization. That's the opposite of how successful organizations are run, the vast majority of the time. The entire Jets FO is just a massive clown show, and this continues it. Jets fans wanted an autonomous GM to come in and control all football decisions, making his singular, focused vision a reality. Pretty much every fan base rooting for a team that cleans house wants this. For a reason. And yet the Jets went at it ### backwards, as everyone fully expected them to.Kinda hard to respond to you if you keep editing.
Ryan doesn't need to turn into the next Belichick - he's done well enough in his time as the Jets coach. Folks act like Ryan has gone 3-13 in each of his past four seasons when in reality, he has the 13th most wins in the league over his four years (not including his playoff wins).
If you have been following the last 2 1/2 weeks I wouldn't need to. Google is your friend. Enjoy.The Jets are a ####### disaster. They have been for a while, just were hiding behind a couple of smoke and mirrors hot streaks. Too bad for Rex, I don't think he's nearly as bad as his dad, but his career path is following a scary similar path. If he makes some tweaks in his approach at his next stop I think it could work.Way to back up your statements with facts.
Not sure how you continue to arrive at the conclusion that because the head coach needed to be retained that the coach has final say about the responsibilities the GM position entails. The GM is responsible for the personnel decisions (as has been stated by the owner) and the GM also has final say on all matters relating to that (also stated emphatically by the owner).
If the Jets are a disaster, what does that make more than half the teams in the league? We obviously have very different definitions of disaster. Regarding the past 2 1/2 weeks - please elaborate - I have seen numerous candidates that have interviewed with the Jets that were desirable (and even some that met with them twice). Who in your mind were the more desirable candidates out there that that either didn't interview with the Jets at all, or who weren't selected? I'd love to see your thoughts on that.If you have been following the last 2 1/2 weeks I wouldn't need to. Google is your friend. Enjoy.The Jets are a ####### disaster. They have been for a while, just were hiding behind a couple of smoke and mirrors hot streaks. Too bad for Rex, I don't think he's nearly as bad as his dad, but his career path is following a scary similar path. If he makes some tweaks in his approach at his next stop I think it could work.Way to back up your statements with facts.
It's clear we're not on the same page here. That's fine. I'm not going to go so far as to call you purposely difficult or dense on this matter, but it's pretty clear how an organization should be structured, and I'd wager that 90% of this forum would agree that this was a backwards move.The fact that a new GM doesn't have the basic freedom of putting his staff together however he pleases, proves that he does not have the final say in the Front Office. It's that simple. And that's faulty team building. Clearly, that means they found someone willing to work under those circumstances in Idzik. That's why there's a chance it can work, like I said before. It's just unlikely, and it's just the wrong way to go about it. It's a clear symptom of a broken organizational structure.I'll repeat--I already said that that doesn't mean it can't work. It just almost never does. And that's why it's exactly what the majority of football fans hate to see.Edit: looking at your last post, it's obvious that part of the problem is that you see short-term previous success (Jets' record in previous years) to somehow be indicative of long-term future success with this team-building model. That doesn't jive with the reality. The Jets are a mess, organizationally. That trickles down over time. A solid Front Office foundation provides the bedrock upon which successful franchises are built.
Likewise - we'll agree to disagree. The fact that you equate keeping the head coach to the Jets/FO/Owner being a massive clown show just shows where your opinion is firmly entrenched.Neither you, I or anyone else know for certain how this will turn out. If we look back in a year, you may have been 100% right but as a fan, I'm going to remain optimistic that those who are much closer to the situation and the players have a better handle on this (and hope that you're not).
That could be a very good comparison of how things could go wrong, but on the other hand, it could have gone the opposite way. Chicago started out great but than lost it in the second half of the season. Chicago was on it's way to the playoffs before their slide and even with that slide still finished a respectable 10-6. If they hadn't had that second half slide, Lovie would still have been the coach.
Not Pat Shurmur, who you just had in to discuss the OC job.If the Jets are a disaster, what does that make more than half the teams in the league? We obviously have very different definitions of disaster. Regarding the past 2 1/2 weeks - please elaborate - I have seen numerous candidates that have interviewed with the Jets that were desirable (and even some that met with them twice). Who in your mind were the more desirable candidates out there that that either didn't interview with the Jets at all, or who weren't selected? I'd love to see your thoughts on that.If you have been following the last 2 1/2 weeks I wouldn't need to. Google is your friend. Enjoy.The Jets are a ####### disaster. They have been for a while, just were hiding behind a couple of smoke and mirrors hot streaks. Too bad for Rex, I don't think he's nearly as bad as his dad, but his career path is following a scary similar path. If he makes some tweaks in his approach at his next stop I think it could work.Way to back up your statements with facts.
Agree. I don't feel Rex is untouchable after this year - he gets one year to see if he and the GM can work together, and that's that. If Idzik likes him and has confidence in him, he'll stay. If not, he'll be gone. Right now, I think it's 70-30 that he goes. But who knows - most NY sportswriters and radio people still think Rex is capable of being a good coach. Maybe he hires the right OC and keeps toning it down (despite the tattoo, which probably is several years old, he's been fairly quiet.)
But that's just it. I don't have to have a crystal ball to be about 90% sure how this is going to end up, because it has been shown again and again to be an inefficient way to put together your Front Office. It just doesn't work. There's a blueprint that nearly every consistently successful franchise out there follows. It's the same blueprint that the majority of rebuilding teams follow, wanting the highest chance for future success.There's a reason you're just about the only poster on here defending the move. It's a symptom of a bigger problem that you seem to be ignorant of, or in denial about. If you're a Jets fan, and you seem to be, I feel sorry that the full weight of your team's messy situation isn't apparent to you yet. This is mid-2000's Redskins bad, and I'm sorry about that for Jet's fans. Good luck.
Motorcycle Maniac Marty Mornhinweg is the new offensive coordinator. Another clown has joined the circus.
How can you talk to people like this?You're passing harsh judgment on a guy you're never met. Idzik is coming from a front office that was built the same way as the Jets are trying. Pete Carroll was hired before John Schneider. Seattle now has a roster that most other franchises would kill for. Will Idzik and Ryan be successful? Maybe. I get your point, but I think you're being too critical just for the sake of being combative. I'm of the belief that the Cardinals are doomed because their ownership. It sounds like you think the same thing about the Jets. Is that correct?
There is a lot more to being a gm then scouting. And considering the cluster that is Sanchez's contract, id say hiring a cap expert is exactly what the doctor ordered. Plus I think Rex is in charge of Personel decisions.'ImTheScientist said:What I don't get is you fire a "cap guy" only to hire a "cap guy". Idzik was allowed in on meetings with Pete and John but was not involved in player talent evaluation. He doesn't have scouting experience.....just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The symptom of a bigger problem I was talking about was referring to the Jets ownership, not the poster I was responding to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.So yes, thats how I feel about Jets ownership.
As a fellow Jets fan, I don't really understand why so many people hate the Jets, but I do agree that the media frenzy around this team is insane. I think that the "joke" thing is largely because of all of the talking Rex has done, and what a complete mess this season was. I'm certainly willing to give Idzik a chance, and I hope he's good. My only issue is that Woody seems to really have tethered himself to Rex. Rex is a great defensive mind and his players like to play for him, but he's overly loyal and SO focused on defense that if he's given a lot of personnel say, than the vast majority of the Jets resources will continue to be devoted to the D.
I think most people hate the Jets because there is a media frenzy around a terrible team and how it distracts from where the attention should go: good teams. I don't think that's the fault of the Jets really, but that's the reality of the situation from my viewpoint. I don't even hate them, I'm just tired of hearing about them.Think about it this way: you have 5 minutes footage and newsworthy reporting of the Tennessee Titans (who have the same record). An hour long show dedicates 15 minutes of it to that story that day. And then they keep doing it every day. Trust me, you'd hate the Titans by about week 3. Tim Tebow was traded to the Jets in March 2012 so non-Jets fans are now officially in week 44 of the aforementioned scenario. It makes you want to stab yourself in the eardrums.
I get that. I hate how much they're talked about too. It's incredibly obnoxious, and what's worse, all the coverage of my favorite team is coverage of Tim Tebow or the team's coach. But that just makes me hate the media (mostly ESPN).
REALLY?!? Francesa killing the Jets? I dont believe it...
Not exactly killing 'em, but he is quite surprised by the direction they went. Tossed a few barbs at Rexy, but essentially low keyed the panning.
Despite what Fatso thinks of himself, he's hardly a talent evaluator himself.
