nah, I'd take Montana there too
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John Elway's Career (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter thekidd2009
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Me 2. Montana
Montana, Marino, Manning, Unitas, Marino, Brady, Favre, Young, Moon, Fouts, several old timers I'm sure...evenutally Brees Elway is a hall of famer for various reasons, but I think there is a line of QBs ahead of him. Not that it's a slam on him. He was a great QB, and he certainly deserves respect, but I think he's overrated as others have stated.
in before moon was a system qb.but really, thats what they will say. legacy is not based on truths, its based on perception and rangzzz.
CaptainHook
Footballguy
i went to his steakhouse it owned
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Tubalcane said:
Look at the numbers Elway put up his last four years in Denver, and it is scary to think of the numbers he could have put up had he been in an offense his whole career that didn't stifle him. Granted, I know that players are judged on what they did do, not what they could have done, but Elway's career as is speaks for itself. There are many reasons why most who have followed the NFL for a long time consider him one of the best quarterbacks ever.
thatguy
Footballguy
You can spout off a lot of things to argue that John Elway was/is overrated, but saying he lacked top 10 talent is absolutely not one of them. He's one of the most athletically gifted QB's to ever play in the NFL. Hell he's one of the most athletically gifted players, at any position, to ever play in the NFL.I'm sure SSOG will bring this up, but many scouts have said that, if you took every draft eligible player in NFL history and put them into a draft, and, going strictly off of what they showed prior to donning an NFL uniform (college performance and pre-draft workouts), Elway would be the first player chosen. From a pure talent perspective, he had it all. What he lacked was a supporting cast that was worth a #### (until Shanny came to town, anyway) and a coach that believed in him enough to let him play his game (again, until Shanny came to town).The Moz said:
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htmHe was an associated press 2nd team all pro 1987, 1993, 1996.ROBOPUNTER said:
The only time any major publication named him 1st team all pro was the Newspaper Ent. Assoc and Sporting News in 1987.
CalBear
Footballguy
The numbers Elway put up his last four years in Denver:229 yards/game (3663/year), 58.6% completions, 101 TD 49 INT (annualized, 25 TD 12 INT/year). Frankly, those aren't "scary" numbers; they're mediocre numbers. His best finish in that stretch was #5 in the league in passing yards (1995), and #4 in passing TDs. They're slightly better than what Jason Campbell put up in 2009 (3618 yards, 64.5% completions, 20 TD 15 INT). Or Donovan McNabb at 3553 yards, 22 TD 10 INT. Or hey, Kyle Orton at 3802 yards, 21 TD 12 INT. But certainly, his numbers in the last four years were better than the numbers the rest of his career, which were basically bad.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
I did see him play, so I agree with you. The OP, however, didn't really see him play so he doesn't understand. Justifiably so, considering you agree that his stats alone don't warrant placing him in the discussion. So again, it's perfectly acceptable why he's questioning those who saw him. Am I missing something here? It's not like he came in screaming about Elway being overrated or Elway sucks or this and that. He simply saw something that seemed to be amiss, and is questioning it. I think that's exactly what you should do.Mile High said:
For a guy who likes to recite numbers you sure seem to ignore going to FIVE superbowls. Three of which he absolutely carried his team into. Go back to your number sheet and produce a QB who has done that. Then come and tell us why Elway is less than an all time great.thekidd2009 said:
CalBear
Footballguy
"Many" scouts say that John Elway was massively overrated, not even close to the best QB in his own class, and that was before he whined about the team who picked him and refused to play.Now that we've gotten the unverifiable assertions out of the way...It seems highly unlikely that a QB who had a losing record in college, and failed to ever lead his team to a bowl berth would be considered the best draft prospect ever. Elway completed 62.1% of his passes in college, with 77 TDs and 39 INTs--compared to, say, Peyton Manning, who completed 62.5% of his passes with 89 TDs and 33 INTs in a tougher conference than Elway, and went to bowl games all four years he started (going 3-1 in those games). Just to take one example.
So you're willing to ignore the rules changes since he played?
PolishNorbi
Footballguy
And since they were nearly equivalent in stats and you use bowl games to compare, how are the super bowls looking?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Obviously he is.
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Lotta hatin' in this post. We may need a more unbiased opinion.......
CalBear
Footballguy
His best finish in that four-year stretch was #5 in passing yardage, in the 8-8 season in 1995 where they missed the playoffs. It's not like he was blowing away his peers. Leaving out the actual good QBs, that year he was outperformed by Jeff George, who threw for 4143 yards with 24 TDs vs 11 INTs and went to the playoffs. Jim Everett had virtually identical stats. In 1996, Gus Frerotte and Jeff Blake threw for more passing yards, and Drew Bledsoe and Vinnie Testaverde threw for more yardage and more TDs. In 1997, Jeff George again threw for more yardage with more TDs and fewer INTs; Bledsoe also had better numbers. In 1998, Testaverde, Jake Plummer, and Trent Green were among the QBs who had better stats than Elway.Hard to be the best of all time when you're not better than mediocre QBs like those, in your cherry-picked best stat years.
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CalBear
Footballguy
Manning is 13 years into his career; at the equivalent point in Elway's career, he was 0-3 in Super Bowls and among the worst-ever Super Bowl QBs, statistically. Manning is 1-1.
Who won more games in those years? Any of the guys you mentioned?95- 98 I mean. Just the years you're citing.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
You're right, CalBear. If Elway only put up a mediocre number like 25 touchdown passes a season for his entire 16-year career, he would have only had 400 touchdown passes, instead of only 300. God, he sucked. 
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Elway was 0-3 in those Super Bowls because he took vastly inferior teams on his back into the Super Bowl. Were you not old enough to see those seasons either?Honest question. How old are you?
This is FF where stats are king and stat stuffers like Moon and Marino get the shine. While winners like Elway are called not really that good. Many would have Emmitt Smith in their top 5 RB's ever because he put up stats while running through holes big enough to drive a truck through most of his career.
Damn Elway took Denver to 3 superbowls almost by himself with nothing on offense. I am saying this all the while I rooted for Cleveland those 3 afc title games. He was at his best when it mattered most and I hated him not because he sucked because I hated Denver. Put him in the WCO and he has stats too.
Damn Elway took Denver to 3 superbowls almost by himself with nothing on offense. I am saying this all the while I rooted for Cleveland those 3 afc title games. He was at his best when it mattered most and I hated him not because he sucked because I hated Denver. Put him in the WCO and he has stats too.
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PolishNorbi
Footballguy
Okay, so over the next three years Manning has to make all his superbowls and win one more.
CalBear
Footballguy
My age is both completely irrelevant to the discussion and none of your business, but I'm old enough to have watched all of Elway's terrible Super Bowl performances.Elway's stats in those three games:
22/37 for 304/1/1
14/38 for 257/1/3
10/26 for 108/0/2
One hundred eight yards passing, no TDs 2 INTs. Not that the other two games were so great, but that is one of the worst imaginable performances in a Super Bowl, and it's all on Elway's shoulders.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Not only that, but Elway's Broncos only won 12 games or more five times in a season...and he won a Super Bowl in two of those five seasons. Meanwhile, Manning's Colts have won 12 games or more in eight of his first 12 seasons...and yet he has only gotten to two Super Bowls, winning one and losing another. Hmmmmmmmmm............
CalBear
Footballguy
Yes, if you cherry-pick his best statistical years, and apply those numbers to his entire career, his career totals might look more impressive.Of course, if you do that for Brett Favre, he would have thrown for 700 TDs.You're right, CalBear. If Elway only put up a mediocre number like 25 touchdown passes a season for his entire 16-year career, he would have only had 400 touchdown passes, instead of only 300. God, he sucked.
I find it interesting that you only show stats from the games he lost. Care to throw a few out there from the multiple Super Bowls he won.
You know, those TWO winning super bowls are on his shoulders too. But that must have been the rest of the team and not him.
Also, when talking history your age IS relevant. Whether you're experienced enough to know it or not. There are those that witness history and those that read it in a book. It does make a difference.
Ice Cream Man
Footballguy
Childish. The better question is how old are YOU? Calbear brings up an interesting argument and, rather than articulate a persuasive argument, you resort to this kind of personal questioning that is flat out patronizing.As to all this talk about "taking inferior teams to superbowls" doesn't this sidestep the question? A great player.. particularly a great qb.. makes those players around him better. Perhaps the fact that Elway did not develop a cast of offensive players around him is precisely why he is not up there with the likes of Manning or Favre, in some people's minds.
thekidd2009
Footballguy
1st super bowl win 12-22 54.5% 123yds 0td's 1int2nd super bowl win 18-29 62.1% 336yds 1td 1int
considering he had 3tds and 8ints in superbowl apperances, i'd consider his numbers in superbowls wins above the norm.
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Mile High
Footballguy
I agree he should. He asked and has been told by many here with Elway you have to look past the stats. He doesn't care about that, instead of excepting that, he continues to post stats trying to prove his point.
At this point, when I see these threads, I don't freak... I just start copying/pasting from previous posts on the subject.Hastur said:
I hate how everyone just boils that down to Terrell Davis. The following guys were added around the same time as Terrell Davis: Gary Zimmerman, Mike Shanahan, Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, Mark Schlereth, and Tom Nalen. You don't think those guys played any role in Denver's turnaround?ROBOPUNTER said:
Let's take a look at per-attempt numbers, shall we? 7.4 yards per attempt, 5.4% TD%, 2.6% INT%. Compare that to Marino's career averages- 7.3, 5.0%, 3.0%, Elway's were better across the board. Montana had 7.5, 5.1%, 2.6%- that's 0.1 more yards per attempt, 0.3% fewer TDs. Those look like pretty scary numbers to me. Elway didn't put up huge aggregate totals because Terrell Davis was making the NFL's run defenses his personal plaything, but his efficiency metrics were studly.To understand Elway's career, you really have to divide it into two distinct parts. Part one was 1983 to 1994, ("Early Years", or E.Y.), and part two was 1995-1998 ("Late Years", or L.Y.). You could just as easily set the dividing line at 1993 (which is when Sharpe broke out and Zimmerman arrived), and the conclusions would still hold up. The point is that Elway had two parts to his career- the "Early Years" where he had no help, and the "Late Years" where he had help.
Early Years Elway
Early Years Elway was notable for the sheer unbelievable lack of supporting cast he had around him. People often talk about how terrible Dan Marino's defenses were, but Elway's were very nearly as bad. From 1983 to 1994, Marino's defense finished, on average, 17.4 in yards allowed and 15.7 in points allowed. Elway's finished 16.3 in yards allowed and 12.25 in points allowed. You're looking at a difference of one or two ranks a year. People also go on and on about how terrible Marino's rushing game was, but Elway's rushing game was possibly even worse. Denver as a team rushed for more yards, but the reason why is because Elway outrushed Marino by a huge margin. Remove QB rushing yards from the equation, and from 1983 to 1994, the Denver Broncos averaged 14.75 more yards per season. And studies have shown that RBs perform better with a mobile QB in the backfield, so even that 14.75 yard-per-season edge overestimates the difference. That's it- less than 15 yards and 2 ranks separated the running game and defense that crippled Marino throughout his career from the running game and defense that Elway made the superbowl THREE TIMES WITH.
And this is just looking at the running game and defense. Defense/RB-wise, Elway and Marino were pretty comparable... but OL and WR-wise? During Marino's first 12 seasons in the league, he saw an OL or WR teammate of his make the pro bowl 27 times. During Elway's first 12 seasons in the league, he saw an OL or WR teammate make the pro bowl... 3 times. Marino played with an average of 2.25 pro bowl OL/WRs every year. Elway played with an average of 0.25 pro bowl OL/WRs a year. Dan Marino had more pro bowl linemen (3) and WRs (1) in his rookie year than Elway had in his first 10 seasons combined (2 and 0, respectively). Is it any wonder that Marino put up better passing numbers during this span? Again though, when you get down to wins, Elway (despite pretty comparable defenses and running games and woefully, ludicrously inferior help in the passing game) made 3 SBs and 4 AFCCGs.
Then, 1995 rolled around, and everything changed for Elway. He got the kind of offensive supporting cast Marino had all along, and his numbers took off. As I already illustrated, once Elway had a supporting cast comparable to Marino's, he put up efficiency metrics superior to Marino's... despite being 35 years old and clearly past his prime. If he'd had that supporting cast in his prime, his numbers would have looked even better still.
Here's a comparison of E.Y. Elway to Dan Marino:
During Marino's first 12 seasons, 44 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.
During Elway's first 12 seasons, 30 of his teammates made the Pro Bowl.
During Marino's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 17 times.
During Elway's first 12 seasons, an OL got sent to the pro bowl 3 times.
During Marino's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 10 times.
During Elway's first 12 seasons, a WR got sent to the pro bowl 0 times.
Dan Marino's coach for his first 12 seasons was Don Shula.
John Elway's coach for his first 12 seasons was Dan Reeves.
During Marino's first 12 seasons, Miami made the playoffs 6 times and the superbowl once.
During Elway's first 12 seasons, Denver made the playoffs 9 times and the superbowl 3 times.
But why stop the comparison at Dan Marino? 1986 to 1989 was the peak of the E.Y. Elway Dynasty- the Broncos made the SB 3 times in that 4 year span. During that span, the height of Denver's power, the Broncos had 13 pro bowls. 3 of them were by Elway. 1 of them came from Sammy Winder in a season where he had 789 rushing yards @ 3.3 yards per carry (seriously). 1 of them was by the punter. All told, Denver averaged 3.25 pro bowl berths a season during that run- and this was the HEIGHT of Denver's power. Discounting Elway's own pro bowls, you're looking at 2.5 pro bowl teammates a season. Joe Montana, by comparison, benefited from 4.75 pro bowl teammates a season from 1983 to 1990 (a span twice as long). That's nearly double Elway's total. During Buffalo's 4-year SB stretch, they averaged 9.25 pro bowlers a season- nearly triple Denver's total during their 3-SBs-in-4-years run. Back in 2007, ESPN ranked all 80 former SB teams. The 1989 Denver Broncos (Elway's best E.Y. squad) were 58th. That's almost the bottom quarter, and that was Elway's best E.Y. SB team. The 1986 and 1987 squads ranked 75th and 64th, and a large part of the reason they even ranked that high was because of Elway himself. Outside of Elway, those were possibly the worst SB teams in history... and yet Elway managed to get them to the big game. He wasn't piloting a super-efficient, cutting edge squad to multiple SBs, like Joe Montana was. He was dragging a moderately talented, behind-the-times squad to multiple SBs.
Late Years Elway
Finally, 1995 rolled around, and the cavalry rode in. Bowlen signed Mike Shanahan, who drafted Terrell Davis and Tom Nalen, and signed Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey (as well as inheriting Gary Zimmerman, who joined in 1993, and Shannon Sharpe, who also emerged in 1993). Finally, Elway had some offensive help. People frequently talk like Elway was carried by his team at this point, but the simple fact is that Elway's supporting cast in his final 4 years (6 pro bowlers a year, on average) was pretty much identical to Montana's supporting cast in his 8-year run in San Francisco (5.5 pro bowlers a year). Elway had Davis, Sharpe, Zimmerman, and eventually Nalen, Smith, and McCaffrey (it took them a while to make an impact). Montana had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, and a slew of pro bowl linemen. And once he finally got a supporting cast to match the Montanas and Kellys of the world, what did he do with it? SB championships in 1997 and 1998, and from 1996-1998 he set a league record for most wins by any team in a 3-year span. And he did this as a 35 year old, clearly-past-his-prime QB. Everyone watching him knew that the late-80s E.Y. Elway was a better player, regardless of how much better L.Y. Elway's numbers were. E.Y. Elway just had no help.
Just how drastically did his numbers improve from the early years to the late years? Well, beginning in 1993 (arrival of Zimmerman and emergence of Sharpe, plus the loss of Dan Reeves, whose hyper-conservative gameplans were clearly not suited to John Elway's strengths), Elway's stats were completely unrecognizable as having come from the guy who put up the pre-1993 stats. Elway's completion percentage from '83 to '92 was, on average, 54.4%. It never once topped 60%, and only once even topped 58%. Elway's completion percentage from '93 to '98 was, on average, 60%. It topped 60% 3 times, and only once dipped below 58%. Prior to 1993, Elway's best QB rating was 83.4. After 1993, Elway's worst QB rating was 85.7. Like I said, radically different stats. In other words, in 1983, once he finally got a supporting cast to match the Montanas and Marinos of the world, he started putting up stats to match the Montanas and the Marinos of the world.
People think that Elway is a HoFer and one of the greatest QBs of all time because of his work in the Late Years (and, more specifically, because of his two rings). That's not true. Elway's most masterful performaces came during the Early Years, when he was playing at a huge handicap compared to the other great QBs and still carrying his team to the SB year after year. The Late Years only demonstrated that if Elway had had help like Marino or Montana all along, he would have produced like Marino or Montana all along.
Catbird
Footballguy
What has the world come to when I find myself writing to support that disgusting horsefaced mouth-breather. I have hated few players more than Elway, but he earned my respect, and my hatred, for beating everyone I liked virtually whenever it mattered.
I don't think all teams are constructed or operated equally. A great QB on a terrible team may make them respectable, but won't make them great. A good QB on a great team will often appear great. And systems determine passing production, and used to determine it even more when whole teams - Bears and Giants come to mind - had as their only strategy for decades at a time to score 7-10 points and hold the other team to less. You can measure fantasy production, but you can't measure who was a greater player just by comparing them across time and teams by stats.
And it hasn't been mentioned much here, but Shanny was no friend of the passing offense either. He fashioned TDavis, Portis and the cast of high producing RBs by ... running. Early and often. And that was forever the Denver offense. Run first and foremost, and come back with Elway passing only to keep the lanes open and then if you had to close from behind. Reeves' offense was even more stunted. I think the next generations FF players would be maligning Brady and Manning if they'd played in the Elway era Denver offense.
Its telling that nearly all the people who saw Elway's career at an age when they knew football and football history think he was great, and its mostly younger fantasy players who know him more from his numbers than from recollection who think he is over-rated. I would think a pretty good, team strength-neutral stat that might let you rate QBs in different times and systems might be games won as underdogs? I would think a high percentage of underdog wins come on high QB play. And I haven't looked, but I strongly suspect that Elway would be at the very top of that class. The Broncos were never that tough, never really expected to beat the Raiders and Chiefs - except that Elway was forever snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, particularly in games where it mattered. I'm not sure what you want in a football (rather then fantasy) QB, but that's what I want in mine (and hate seeing in my enemies' uniforms).
I don't think all teams are constructed or operated equally. A great QB on a terrible team may make them respectable, but won't make them great. A good QB on a great team will often appear great. And systems determine passing production, and used to determine it even more when whole teams - Bears and Giants come to mind - had as their only strategy for decades at a time to score 7-10 points and hold the other team to less. You can measure fantasy production, but you can't measure who was a greater player just by comparing them across time and teams by stats.
And it hasn't been mentioned much here, but Shanny was no friend of the passing offense either. He fashioned TDavis, Portis and the cast of high producing RBs by ... running. Early and often. And that was forever the Denver offense. Run first and foremost, and come back with Elway passing only to keep the lanes open and then if you had to close from behind. Reeves' offense was even more stunted. I think the next generations FF players would be maligning Brady and Manning if they'd played in the Elway era Denver offense.
Its telling that nearly all the people who saw Elway's career at an age when they knew football and football history think he was great, and its mostly younger fantasy players who know him more from his numbers than from recollection who think he is over-rated. I would think a pretty good, team strength-neutral stat that might let you rate QBs in different times and systems might be games won as underdogs? I would think a high percentage of underdog wins come on high QB play. And I haven't looked, but I strongly suspect that Elway would be at the very top of that class. The Broncos were never that tough, never really expected to beat the Raiders and Chiefs - except that Elway was forever snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, particularly in games where it mattered. I'm not sure what you want in a football (rather then fantasy) QB, but that's what I want in mine (and hate seeing in my enemies' uniforms).
Unverifiable assertions? Your assertion is completely unverifiable, but mine is totally verifiable. Here's a paid professional saying exactly that. You might find it highly unlikely, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. Elway was so good (Heisman Trophy runner up on a team that didn't even make a bowl game) and those Stanford squads were so bad that NFL teams didn't hold their record against him. In fact, they thought the fact that Stanford did as well as they did was actually a credit to Elway.
This is hogwash. Rod Smith was an undrafted free agent. Shannon Sharpe was a 7th rounder who was a failure at WR so he was asked to put on some weight. Ed McCaffrey was a journeyman who didn't top 1,000 receiving yards until his 8th season in the league (basically, a '90s version of Brandon Lloyd). Did John Elway find a magical stash of pixie dust late in his career that allowed him to turn those guys into pro bowlers, but not guys like Nattiel or Vance Johnson? Or is it more likely that Elway's receivers prior to 1993 were just garbage and his head coach was a play-calling neanderthal? Personally, I'm going with the latter option.This whole idea that QBs can "make average WRs into pro bowlers" is garbage. Look at Tom Brady. Prior to 2007, he played with a bunch of average WRs, and they played like average WRs. After that, he played with a bunch of pro bowlers, and they played like pro bowlers. Brady's the exact same guy. Prior to 2004, Donovan McNabb played with a bunch of scrubs who went out and... played like scrubs. In 2004, McNabb got a pro bowl WR in Terrell Owens, and Owens went out and played like a pro bowl WR. No WR on a Drew Brees team has ever made the pro bowl- is that somehow a flaw in Drew Brees, is it indicative of the fact that he's unable to "make his WRs"? Or does it just mean that guys like Devery Henderson and Lance Moore are really just guys?
Elway made the players around him better. The problem was that, prior to 1993, the players around him were so bad that even after Elway made them better, they still didn't amount to much of a supporting cast. Luckily for them, though, they had Elway to carry them.
NinerFan49
Footballguy
I attended Cal during part of the time when Elway was still playing for Stanford and have "hated" him ever since. Not real hatred, of course... But the kind of "hatred" where I loved that he said that losing to Cal in 1982 (as a result of the five-lateral play at the end of the game) "ruined his college career" and I hated that he got to win a Super Bowl...
But... having said all that, I also have to say that I think he was a great quarterback. I don't think there is any "objective" way to rank quarterbacks because their success is so dependent on what so many other people do... So I'm not going to hazard a ranking for him. But I'd put him up there with all of the other truly great quarterbacks.
But... having said all that, I also have to say that I think he was a great quarterback. I don't think there is any "objective" way to rank quarterbacks because their success is so dependent on what so many other people do... So I'm not going to hazard a ranking for him. But I'd put him up there with all of the other truly great quarterbacks.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
Personally, I think a decent modern day comparison to Elway would be Roethlisberger (only when he's at the top of his game).
I'm not talking about a direct comparison. Obviously, Elway doesn't have Roethlisberger's size or ability to break the tackle of a 285 lb. DLineman. Elway certainly never had the supporting cast that Roethlisberger's been accustomed to (imagine an Elway-free Broncos team being in the discussion for best team in the league).
What I mean is that, with both QBs, the stats don't really tell the story. Both, for much of their career, played in a close to the vest offense that made their numbers look very average. Both were exactly the kind of guys you wanted to lead a 4th quarter comeback though. I think Peyton Manning could be the best QB ever, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be Roethlisberger that I'd want on the final drive of a big game to take the lead (if picking a current QB).
Another similarity is that, for both teams, they were the opposite of a "product of the system". At least in terms of the passing offense, they were/are the system and they made/make plays that you just get the feeling that other QBs couldn't.
I don't know where to place Elway, but I think he's in the top 4, with Montana, Marino, and Manning (can't decide on the order).
I'm not talking about a direct comparison. Obviously, Elway doesn't have Roethlisberger's size or ability to break the tackle of a 285 lb. DLineman. Elway certainly never had the supporting cast that Roethlisberger's been accustomed to (imagine an Elway-free Broncos team being in the discussion for best team in the league).
What I mean is that, with both QBs, the stats don't really tell the story. Both, for much of their career, played in a close to the vest offense that made their numbers look very average. Both were exactly the kind of guys you wanted to lead a 4th quarter comeback though. I think Peyton Manning could be the best QB ever, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be Roethlisberger that I'd want on the final drive of a big game to take the lead (if picking a current QB).
Another similarity is that, for both teams, they were the opposite of a "product of the system". At least in terms of the passing offense, they were/are the system and they made/make plays that you just get the feeling that other QBs couldn't.
I don't know where to place Elway, but I think he's in the top 4, with Montana, Marino, and Manning (can't decide on the order).
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
I agree with most of your points, but I think you are a bit off-base here.Of all the great debates in sports, I'm not sure there is any more fierce than Elway/Marino and I think that shows through.
A QB isn't generally going to take a bad WR and make him a pro-bowler, but the QB and the system mean a great deal to the numbers of a WR.
You mention Rod Smith's draft status as an indicator of his talent level. In 1984, Mark Clayton was 23 year old, former 8th round draft pick, playing in his 1st full season as WR (and that was back in the olden days when WRs were supposed to take time to develop). That didn't stop Marino from connecting with him 73 times, at 19.0 YPR and 18 TDs. Even more impressive, Duper had almost an identical season (with about half the TDs).
18.0+ YPR is a huge number. That year, Marino took 2 5'9" WRs, with a combined 1 year of NFL WR experience, and helped them both to 70+ catches and an 18.4+ YPC! That takes a very special QB that can through one hell of a deep ball.
Sorry, it's easy to get sidetracked by Marino's '84 season, but the point is, even though we can't really know for sure, it's very likely that Marino made his WRs and his OL look a hell of alot better than they would've looked otherwise. Having an unsackable QB can send some OL to the Pro Bowl.
You say WRs are what they are. Do you really believe Clayton and Duper would've made Pro Bowl appearances playing for the Broncos?
Bronco Binkley
Footballguy
The guy was the closest thing to a one man gang the Nfl has ever seen. If he Elway would have played for the 49ers in the 80's they would have won at least 6 superbowls instead of 4. To the guy who said Warren Moon was better, how many superbowl appearances did he make in his career?
If you want to go only off a guys statistics you could easy say guys like Joe Namath and Lynn Swann don't belong in the Hall of fame either. Just because they played in different eras doesn't mean they weren't great.
It comes down to wins. Elway is second only to Favre on that list.
If you want to go only off a guys statistics you could easy say guys like Joe Namath and Lynn Swann don't belong in the Hall of fame either. Just because they played in different eras doesn't mean they weren't great.
It comes down to wins. Elway is second only to Favre on that list.
Porkchop Express
Footballguy
Compare his numbers under Shannahan to his numbers under Reeves. Pretty obvious that his lack of statistics in his early years have everything to do with the system he was playing in and not his skills.
CalBear
Footballguy
Uh, I'm showing the stats from the games he lost because I'm talking about the first 13 years of his career, which is when those games were.And if you really want to include the stats from the wins:
12/22, 123/0/1
18/29, 336/1/1
So one more awful game, and one decent one. Those wins were on the shoulders of Terrell Davis, not John Elway.
ROBOPUNTER
Footballguy
At least 6?Why do I smell the excuse of when Elway did well, it was all because of him, but when he played poorly, it was everyone else's fault?
Polar Dude
Footballguy
To quote a very wise man from a post a number of years ago..."I hate the fact that I have to continually bring out the facts in order to set you guys straight.Let's look what Elway had going for him in '86-'89. He had a very good offensive line, a top-notch defense (with Pro-Bowl-quality players like Mark Haynes, Tom Jackson. Rulon Jones, Greg Kragen, Karl Mecklenberg, Dennis Smith, Louis Wright, Tyrone Braxton, Michael Brooks, and Steve Atwater), and strong special teams.He also had the single best home field advantage in professional sports.The only thing he did not have was excellent WRs and RBs. Even then Sammy Winder played well enough in '86 to make the Pro Bowl and the Three Amigos were all at least above average targets.The notion that there was no talent on this team and that Elway took a rag-tag bunch of misfits and single-handedly drug them to the Super Bowl is misguided at best and downright delusional at worst. Let's lay this nonsense to rest."Let me also add that Elway had a top ten defense 9 of his 16 years in the league.DawnBTVS said:
Polar Dude
Footballguy
They don't. Both of them are largely products of the hype that they created rather than their production on the field. I think this is pretty much the OP's point.
Adebisi
Footballguy
I voted for Elway three times with my aliases just to skew the results of that poll.BusterTBronco said:Sorry Adebisi. Shark Pool poll sez you're wrong.BusterTBronco said:
thatguy
Footballguy
I wish I could be that awesome.I voted for Elway three times with my aliases just to skew the results of that poll.BusterTBronco said:Sorry Adebisi. Shark Pool poll sez you're wrong.BusterTBronco said:
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