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John Lynch -- Hall of Famer? (1 Viewer)

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Capella

CAPELLODINHO
I've made my thoughts known on potential Bucs Hall of Famers around here before -- I've said Brooks and Sapp were locks, Lynch was likely in, but it would take quite a long time and Barber/Rice had a lot of work to do. After this year, I would say it would be very difficult for anybody to argue against Brooks (some here have said before he was on the fence) while even I acknowledge Sapp isn't exactly helping his cause. I don't feel like talking about Sapp right now, more interested in Lynch because I believe he's gone from potentially out to likely in with his play the past two years. When he left Tampa, he was a slow, plodding player who no longer fit in a defense that demanded its strong safety to get deep and keep up with the game's wideouts. Now I haven't seen much of his games in Denver, but from what I've read, his play this year was superb, and he's a perfect fit with the Broncos, who allow him to come up and play in a more pseudo-linebacker/safety role. From what I understand, they are really doing a great job of hiding his lack of speed. Here he sits on the verge of a second Super Bowl berth, added another Pro Bowl to his resume this year and has really been one of the game's best safeties. He's been named to the NFL All-Pro team three times. My thinking is if the Broncos win the SB this year, he's has a great shot of getting in. :shrug:

 
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Jason Wood

Zoo York
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.

 
He's one of my favorite players. In addition to being a great player he's one of the good guys. But I don't think of him as a HOFer. He's had a great career and will be remembered - but more in the way of: down the road an announcer stating a strong player that hits hard and goes all out reminds him of John Lynch and people know what he's talkng about.

 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
Lynch doesn't have the stats that make you say "lock", but I think he gets in based on reputation (which appears to be well deserved).IMO, Sapp and Brooks are locks. Barber possibly, with a few more years. Rice never makes it.

 

Capella

CAPELLODINHO
He's one of my favorite players. In addition to being a great player he's one of the good guys. But I don't think of him as a HOFer.
I'm curious about this -- you've seen him play most of his career. What more would a safety have to do in your opinion to be thought of as a HOF'er?
 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Cap - can you convince us that Lynch belongs in ahead of Rodney Harrison or Brian Dawkins?Sammy Knight?Troy Vincent?Looking at the stats, I don't see it, and I don't recall ever perceiving Lynch as an elite player.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
He's one of my favorite players. In addition to being a great player he's one of the good guys. But I don't think of him as a HOFer.
I'm curious about this -- you've seen him play most of his career. What more would a safety have to do in your opinion to be thought of as a HOF'er?
I think he's done as much as any safety currently playing to warrant consideration, but unless the Hall changes its tune and starts inducting a lot more defensive backs, Lynch is a coin flip at this point.
 

Capella

CAPELLODINHO
Cap - can you convince us that Lynch belongs in ahead of Rodney Harrison or Brian Dawkins?

Sammy Knight?

Troy Vincent?

Looking at the stats, I don't see it, and I don't recall ever perceiving Lynch as an elite player.
I'm not here to convince anybody -- I'm just asking a question. Fwiw, I don't think stats are the end-all story for safeties. But I also wouldn't necessarily argue him over Harrison or even Dawkins. I think all three of those guys warrant consideration.

 
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Capella

CAPELLODINHO
He's one of my favorite players. In addition to being a great player he's one of the good guys. But I don't think of him as a HOFer.
I'm curious about this -- you've seen him play most of his career. What more would a safety have to do in your opinion to be thought of as a HOF'er?
I think he's done as much as any safety currently playing to warrant consideration, but unless the Hall changes its tune and starts inducting a lot more defensive backs, Lynch is a coin flip at this point.
I would agree.As Cracker said though, his reputation may pull him through at some point.

 
He's one of my favorite players. In addition to being a great player he's one of the good guys. But I don't think of him as a HOFer.
I'm curious about this -- you've seen him play most of his career. What more would a safety have to do in your opinion to be thought of as a HOF'er?
Kill Chuck Norris.Seriously, I haven't really thought a lot about it and I certainly don't have anything like a certain threshhold or criteria for Lynch, or any safety, to get into the hall. My opinion is based just on general impression.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
is Rodney Harrison a HOFer? I'm thinking he would be the closest competition for Lynch.
Personally I think his most direct competition will be Darren Woodson.As I said earlier, Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders are 100% locks, both were on the NFL's 50th Anniversary team and considered the best defensive backs of the era.

Assuming one or two other DBs get consideration from the Lynch-era, Darren Woodson appears the most viable alternative. Woodson was a 4-time All Pro selection [one more than Lynch], led the Cowboys in tackles a number of times, made 5 Pro Bowls and, of course, won 3 SBs [where he edges out Lynch].

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Cap - can you convince us that Lynch belongs in ahead of Rodney Harrison or Brian Dawkins?

Sammy Knight?

Troy Vincent?

Looking at the stats, I don't see it, and I don't recall ever perceiving Lynch as an elite player.
I'm not here to convince anybody -- I'm just asking a question. Fwiw, I don't think stats are the end-all story for safeties. But I also wouldn't necessarily argue him over Harrison or even Dawkins. I think all three of those guys warrant consideration.
I agree that stats are overrated - for any IDP. I took your post to be advocating for Lynch. As I don't see where he's better than any of the 4 I mentioned, especially not Dawkins or Harrison, I wouldn't vote him in unless as Wood says, more DBs start getting in - maybe they should.

 

Boston

Footballguy
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.

On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.

The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.
Under consideration:*Darrel Green-Should be a definite.

*Rodney Harison-Emotional leader of two Super Bowl teams as well as the all time sack leader for D-Backs. I'm very biased about him. IMO you can't understand what he brings to the table until you watch him play every game...I know I didn't.

*Ty Law-Another guy with rings and some very big games on his resume. A few more good years and he'll definetly aid his cause.

*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?

David Fulcher-Sorry just wanted to throw his name in here...talk about a guy that just disappeared.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
is Rodney Harrison a HOFer? I'm thinking he would be the closest competition for Lynch.
Harrison is probably the third guy along with Lynch who has a shot...Harrison, like Lynch, has been an All-Pro three times. He's also #1 all-time in sacks for defensive backs and is the only player with 25+ sacks and 30+ INTs in his career. Combine that with his SB wins in NE [and an appearance in San Diego], and he's got a really strong case too.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.

On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.

The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.
Under consideration:*Darrel Green-Should be a definite.

*Rodney Harison-Emotional leader of two Super Bowl teams as well as the all time sack leader for D-Backs. I'm very biased about him. IMO you can't understand what he brings to the table until you watch him play every game...I know I didn't.

*Ty Law-Another guy with rings and some very big games on his resume. A few more good years and he'll definetly aid his cause.

*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?

David Fulcher-Sorry just wanted to throw his name in here...talk about a guy that just disappeared.
:goodposting: I didn't consider Darrell Green as a Lynch contemporary, and I would agree he's 100% IN. Green, Woodson and Sanders are going to make it really, REALLY tough for a guy like Ty Law to get into the Hall, SB rings or not.
 

Boston

Footballguy
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.

On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.

The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.
Under consideration:*Darrel Green-Should be a definite.

*Rodney Harison-Emotional leader of two Super Bowl teams as well as the all time sack leader for D-Backs. I'm very biased about him. IMO you can't understand what he brings to the table until you watch him play every game...I know I didn't.

*Ty Law-Another guy with rings and some very big games on his resume. A few more good years and he'll definetly aid his cause.

*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?

David Fulcher-Sorry just wanted to throw his name in here...talk about a guy that just disappeared.
:goodposting: I didn't consider Darrell Green as a Lynch contemporary, and I would agree he's 100% IN. Green, Woodson and Sanders are going to make it really, REALLY tough for a guy like Ty Law to get into the Hall, SB rings or not.
I was going with guys who aren't currently in the hall that's why I had Green in there.You maybe selling Law short. I think he's a guy who will get serious consideration. He was one of the dominate CBs of his era. He played the pass as well as the run. He has three Super Bowl rings. He has had huge games during the playoffs (three picks against Manning) and the Super Bowl (TD against the Rams). He also has 46 career ints. If he gets 11 more he will break into the all time top 10 which is another big plus for him. A lot will depend on what else he can do in his career. As far as making the Hall his best bet is probably to go back to the Pats and continue playing for a winner with a lot of national exposure that plays in big games.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
Law didn't play most of the 2004 season so not sure he deserves much credit for the 3rd Super Bowl ring.I think Harrison will get in, and I agree that Darren Woodson is a strong candidate as well. I think Lynch is, at best, the 3rd strongest safety candidate of the past 20 years (not including Rod Woodson or Ronnie Lott).

 

Boston

Footballguy
Law didn't play most of the 2004 season so not sure he deserves much credit for the 3rd Super Bowl ring.
Agreed...but when his career is over he will have at least three rings as well as four Super Bowl appearances. I don't think the third ring will help except in the fact that he will be seen as a key member of a dynasty. Sometimes being a part of a team with that type of run can give you that little extra.
 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
Law didn't play most of the 2004 season so not sure he deserves much credit for the 3rd Super Bowl ring.
Agreed...but when his career is over he will have at least three rings as well as four Super Bowl appearances. I don't think the third ring will help except in the fact that he will be seen as a key member of a dynasty. Sometimes being a part of a team with that type of run can give you that little extra.
I'm a Ty Law fan and think he'll have an excellent case when his career is over...especially if he moves over to safety to extend his career and does well there.
 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.

On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.

The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.
Under consideration:*Darrel Green-Should be a definite.

*Rodney Harison-Emotional leader of two Super Bowl teams as well as the all time sack leader for D-Backs. I'm very biased about him. IMO you can't understand what he brings to the table until you watch him play every game...I know I didn't.

*Ty Law-Another guy with rings and some very big games on his resume. A few more good years and he'll definetly aid his cause.

*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?

David Fulcher-Sorry just wanted to throw his name in here...talk about a guy that just disappeared.
:goodposting: I didn't consider Darrell Green as a Lynch contemporary, and I would agree he's 100% IN. Green, Woodson and Sanders are going to make it really, REALLY tough for a guy like Ty Law to get into the Hall, SB rings or not.
I was going with guys who aren't currently in the hall that's why I had Green in there.You maybe selling Law short. I think he's a guy who will get serious consideration. He was one of the dominate CBs of his era. He played the pass as well as the run. He has three Super Bowl rings. He has had huge games during the playoffs (three picks against Manning) and the Super Bowl (TD against the Rams). He also has 46 career ints. If he gets 11 more he will break into the all time top 10 which is another big plus for him. A lot will depend on what else he can do in his career. As far as making the Hall his best bet is probably to go back to the Pats and continue playing for a winner with a lot of national exposure that plays in big games.
Law has some impressive credentials but look at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There are currently only seven pure cornerbacks in the Hall, that's it. Seven CBs dating back to 1948. It's very, very hard to get into the Hall. You mention that Law has 46 INTs and "only" needs 11 more to get into the top-10, but 11 INTs is a LOT and you can hardly count on that happening. Of the current top-10 all-time:

Paul Krause -- 81 HOF Inducted

Emlen Tunnell -- 79 HOF Inducted

Rod Woodson -- 71 HOF lock

**** Lane -- 68 HOF Inducted

Ken Riley -- 65 NOT in the Hall

Ronnie Lott -- 63 HOF Inducted

Dave Brown -- 62 NOT in the Hall

**** LeBeau -- 62 NOT in the Hall

Emmitt Thomas -- 58 NOT in the Hall

Mel Blount -- 57 HOF Inducted

Bobby Boyd -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Johnny Robinson -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Everson Walls -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Eugene Robinson -- 57 NOT in the Hall

As you can see, INTs are hardly an indicator of HOF worthiness. Only six of the 14 men in the top-10 [there's a big tie for 10th place] are either in the hall or are sure things.

Law has been an All Pro twice, which is good, but not good enough. :no:

 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
I'm trying to think of who the other very good safeties have been in recent memory, and these are the names that I come up with:Leroy ButlerDarren WoodsonMerton HanksTim McDonaldBrian DawkinsRodney HarrisonJohn LynchEd Reedany others? it's not a very deep group so I think Lynch will have a hard time getting in. he doesn't really stand out THAT MUCH among this group to me.

 
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Boston

Footballguy
Law didn't play most of the 2004 season so not sure he deserves much credit for the 3rd Super Bowl ring.
Agreed...but when his career is over he will have at least three rings as well as four Super Bowl appearances. I don't think the third ring will help except in the fact that he will be seen as a key member of a dynasty. Sometimes being a part of a team with that type of run can give you that little extra.
I'm a Ty Law fan and think he'll have an excellent case when his career is over...especially if he moves over to safety to extend his career and does well there.
It will be interesting to see if he ever moves to safety. Everyone seems to think that's a great idea and I can see why. Yet, he's been pretty adamant about staying at CB. Also, I'm really interested to see where he ends up next year. Ty's always been a huge fan of the cash. Does he go to the higest bidder or does he go to the best situation? In all honesty that decision will have a big impact on his Hall-of-fame possibility. If he can add another few good years and/or another ring to his resume it would greatly add his candidacy.

By the way...I'm pushing real hard for him to come back to the Pats. The Pats badly need a high quality veteran CB. They have the youngsters in Gay, Samuel and Hobb. Adding Law would really balance out the secondary since he already knows the system.

 

Boston

Footballguy
On one hand, there are only nine safeties in the Hall of Fame, and that includes Renfro and Lott who are considered CBs, as well.

On the other hand, Lynch has been one of the most consistent safeties in the league for more than a decade and there is seemingly room in the Hall for at least two or three safeties who played the majority of their careers in the 90s, as Lynch has.

The real question is, which one or two defensive backs are going to get consideration beyond Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders, who are the two mortal locks from this era.
Under consideration:*Darrel Green-Should be a definite.

*Rodney Harison-Emotional leader of two Super Bowl teams as well as the all time sack leader for D-Backs. I'm very biased about him. IMO you can't understand what he brings to the table until you watch him play every game...I know I didn't.

*Ty Law-Another guy with rings and some very big games on his resume. A few more good years and he'll definetly aid his cause.

*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?

David Fulcher-Sorry just wanted to throw his name in here...talk about a guy that just disappeared.
:goodposting: I didn't consider Darrell Green as a Lynch contemporary, and I would agree he's 100% IN. Green, Woodson and Sanders are going to make it really, REALLY tough for a guy like Ty Law to get into the Hall, SB rings or not.
I was going with guys who aren't currently in the hall that's why I had Green in there.You maybe selling Law short. I think he's a guy who will get serious consideration. He was one of the dominate CBs of his era. He played the pass as well as the run. He has three Super Bowl rings. He has had huge games during the playoffs (three picks against Manning) and the Super Bowl (TD against the Rams). He also has 46 career ints. If he gets 11 more he will break into the all time top 10 which is another big plus for him. A lot will depend on what else he can do in his career. As far as making the Hall his best bet is probably to go back to the Pats and continue playing for a winner with a lot of national exposure that plays in big games.
Law has some impressive credentials but look at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. There are currently only seven pure cornerbacks in the Hall, that's it. Seven CBs dating back to 1948. It's very, very hard to get into the Hall. You mention that Law has 46 INTs and "only" needs 11 more to get into the top-10, but 11 INTs is a LOT and you can hardly count on that happening. Of the current top-10 all-time:

Paul Krause -- 81 HOF Inducted

Emlen Tunnell -- 79 HOF Inducted

Rod Woodson -- 71 HOF lock

**** Lane -- 68 HOF Inducted

Ken Riley -- 65 NOT in the Hall

Ronnie Lott -- 63 HOF Inducted

Dave Brown -- 62 NOT in the Hall

**** LeBeau -- 62 NOT in the Hall

Emmitt Thomas -- 58 NOT in the Hall

Mel Blount -- 57 HOF Inducted

Bobby Boyd -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Johnny Robinson -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Everson Walls -- 57 NOT in the Hall

Eugene Robinson -- 57 NOT in the Hall

As you can see, INTs are hardly an indicator of HOF worthiness. Only six of the 14 men in the top-10 [there's a big tie for 10th place] are either in the hall or are sure things.

Law has been an All Pro twice, which is good, but not good enough. :no:
We'll have to see. Again, I think a lot depends on the next few years. If he still plays at a high level he'll have a nice combination of stats, longevity, team success and big plays that people remember (i.e. they're shown on ESPN Classic). He will definetly be considerd at the least.
 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
You mention that Law has 46 INTs and "only" needs 11 more to get into the top-10, but 11 INTs is a LOT and you can hardly count on that happening.
He did just finish a 10-interception campaign as a 31-year old player on one of the league's worst teams. If he stays healthy, I think Law could easily play for another 3 or 4 years and if he does that, 60+ INTs is not out of the question.
 

Boston

Footballguy
Ty Law thread down?
Yeah, sorry about that. As for Lynch I think he's a guy that needs a few more years of playing like he did against the Pats last week (he was awesome...unfortunately) to have a chance. If Denver wins the title I think that would be a big aid to his chances. As Jason pointed out there are no weak names from the secondary in the Hall. The more you look at those name the tougher I think it is for Lynch to get in.

 
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Boston

Footballguy
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella). Question since I like/respect what you have to say. Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position. That's why he's been such a complete player. In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?

 

Capella

CAPELLODINHO
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella). Question since I like/respect what you have to say. Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position. That's why he's been such a complete player. In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?
Barber :excited:
 

Boston

Footballguy
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella).  Question since I like/respect what you have to say.  Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position.  That's why he's been such a complete player.  In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?
Barber :excited:
I'd put him in the mix. He definetly doesn't shy away.
 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella).  Question since I like/respect what you have to say.  Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position.  That's why he's been such a complete player.  In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?
Barber :excited:
I'd put him in the mix. He definetly doesn't shy away.
But what he makes up in run support, he lacks in man-to-man.
 

cracKer

Shawn Culcasi
If Rodney Harrison doesn't get in, it'll have to be because of hisreputation. He's had the stats and the success to be considered among the games elite for the past decade.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
A couple of other names not mentioned so far: Aeneas Williams and LeRoy Butler.Williams:- All Pro 4 times as a CB- Pro Bowler 8 times (7 at CB, 1 at S)- Selected for 1990s All Decade team- 55 career interceptions, currently #17 all time- 794 tackles, 3 sacks, 12 forced fumbles, 23 fumble recoveries, 168 passes defensed... not sure how these numbers compare to other CBs/DBs- 12 defensive TDs, including 9 interception returns (tied for #2 all-time)- Postseason record 2 interceptions returned for TDs in 1 game (vs. Green Bay 1/20/02)- Played in 183 consecutive games, including 180 consecutive starts- Played in one Super Bowl, which his team lostTo me it seems clear that Williams is next in line for recent era DBs, after Sanders & Rod Woodson. (And also behind Darrell Green if you consider him to be of the same era.)Butler:- All Pro 4 times at S- Pro Bowl 4 times at S- Selected for 1990s All Decade team- 38 interceptions, 20.5 sacks, 3 TDs, 889 tackles, 13 forced fumbles, 131 passes defensed- 1 of 7 players with 20+ interceptions and 20+ sacks (and 1 of only 3 DBs, along with Rodney Harrison and Ronde Barber)- Fell just short of becoming the first player in NFL history to finish his career with 40 career interceptions and 20 sacks- invented the "Lambeau Leap" :) - Played in two Super Bowls, which his team splitI think Butler's case is at least as compelling as that of the other safeties discussed in this thread.

 
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SSOG

Moderator
*Steve-Atwater-8 Pro Bowls, two rings and one huge hit on Christian Okoye. Has he been up for a hall vote yet?
He became eligible last year, and was one of the 15 finalists. This year, he didn't make it down to the 15-man list.
I'm trying to think of who the other very good safeties have been in recent memory, and these are the names that I come up with:

Leroy Butler

Darren Woodson

Merton Hanks

Tim McDonald

Brian Dawkins

Rodney Harrison

John Lynch

Ed Reed

any others? it's not a very deep group so I think Lynch will have a hard time getting in. he doesn't really stand out THAT MUCH among this group to me.
Atwater.
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella). Question since I like/respect what you have to say. Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position. That's why he's been such a complete player. In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?
Barber :excited:
Champ Bailey is HUGE against the run. He absolutely LIT UP Deuce McAllister last season in the Denver/New Orleans game, finishing with 13 or 14 tackles. He led the team in tackles for a substantial portion of the season, and that had a lot more to do with run support than it did with poor coverage.
 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
Following up to add relevance to the Lynch thread.

John Lynch:

195 games

914 tackles

12 sacks

26 interceptions

85 passes defensed

14 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 11 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-5, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

Rodney Harrison:

158 games

1026 tackles

27.5 sacks

31 interceptions

104 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (including 2 kick return TDs)

2 All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 9-3, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

Brian Dawkins:

141 games

703 tackles

17 sacks

28 interceptions

132 passes defensed

21 forced fumbles

15 fumble recoveries

3 TDs (includes 1 receiving TD)

2 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

His teams played 13 postseason games to date, with a record of 7-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

Darren Woodson:

178 games

940 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

Leroy Butler:

181 games

890 tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

130 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

10 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

4 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

First off, I am quite frustrated that I can't seem to find all of Leroy Butler's statistics. Anyone have a reference site? (Doug, if you read this, I'd sure love to see defensive stats added to pro-football-reference.com! :) )

Finally, I just don't see Lynch standing out in this crowd. From the numbers, it looks to me like he ranks at the bottom of this group. There is no way all of these guys will make the HOF, and I think it will be tough for the voters to figure out which ones stood out.

I think Woodson & Harrison will have an edge due to the success of their teams, and Butler will also merit strong consideration due to his numbers, assuming the ones I couldn't find measure up well against the others.

EDIT to change all stats to be based on STATS due to discrepancies from various sources and because I initially failed to include assists for some players. I still think Lynch's numbers are not compelling compared to the others. Harrison, Butler, and Woodson all look more deserving, and Dawkins has played 54 fewer games than Lynch... who knows how his numbers will compare when he is done.

 
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MarshallRob

Footballguy
is Rodney Harrison a HOFer? I'm thinking he would be the closest competition for Lynch.
As I said earlier, Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders are 100% locks, both were on the NFL's 50th Anniversary team and considered the best defensive backs of the era.
Was Rod Woodson or Deion even born when the NFL celebrated its 50th Anniversary? ;) After reading a lot of the good posts on this thread I think Lynch is going to have a tough time of it. I think he will get some votes but no way did he have the kind of impact that Rod Woodson or Deion had (or Darrell Green for that matter). Postseason heroics do have a way of helping quite a bit of course and if Lynch were to make some memorable plays over the next two games to help lead Denver to the title, you never know.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Jason-Back to Law for a second (sorry Capella). Question since I like/respect what you have to say. Watching Law's career I've always thought his play against the run was stellar for his position. That's why he's been such a complete player. In the last 15 years or so what big time CB has played the run better than him?
I would say Rod Woodson [if you count them in the same era] but he's one of the best CBs of all time so his being better isn't a gating factor. As someone else mentioned, Ronde Barber is good/great in run support. But to be honest, CBs aren't going to get into the HOF b/c of their run stopping abilities, just as a guy like Hines Ward isn't going to get extra points because he's the best blocking WR.
is Rodney Harrison a HOFer? I'm thinking he would be the closest competition for Lynch.
As I said earlier, Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders are 100% locks, both were on the NFL's 50th Anniversary team and considered the best defensive backs of the era.
Was Rod Woodson or Deion even born when the NFL celebrated its 50th Anniversary? ;) After reading a lot of the good posts on this thread I think Lynch is going to have a tough time of it. I think he will get some votes but no way did he have the kind of impact that Rod Woodson or Deion had (or Darrell Green for that matter). Postseason heroics do have a way of helping quite a bit of course and if Lynch were to make some memorable plays over the next two games to help lead Denver to the title, you never know.
:bag: 75th Anniversary team, good catch :thumbup: I agree, after reading a bit more and seeing some of the comparitive numbers, I now think Lynch is going to have a tough time. He should get serious consideration, but is probably 5th or 6th among DBs in his era for consideration [behind Sanders, Woodson, Woodson, A. Williams and Harrison].

 

BrutalPenguin

Footballguy
I really don't think he's done yet. The Broncos have rejuvinated him and he's got a good shot at another ring this season (Broncos homer, but he does). I think it's too early to tell.

 

Capella

CAPELLODINHO
Following up to add relevance to the Lynch thread.

John Lynch:

637 tackles

12 sacks

26 interceptions

55 passes defensed

14 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 11 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-5, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

Rodney Harrison:

820 tackles

27.5 sacks

31 interceptions

71 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

4 TDs

2 All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 9-3, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

Brian Dawkins:

554 tackles

17 sacks

28 interceptions

100 passes defensed

22 forced fumbles

15 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

2 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

His teams played 13 postseason games to date, with a record of 7-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

Darren Woodson:

800 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

18 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

Leroy Butler:

? tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

? passes defensed

? forced fumbles

? fumble recoveries

3+? TDs

4 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

First off, I am quite frustrated that I can't seem to find all of Leroy Butler's statistics. Anyone have a reference site? (Doug, if you read this, I'd sure love to see defensive stats added to pro-football-reference.com! :) )

Finally, I just don't see Lynch standing out in this crowd. From the numbers, it looks to me like he ranks at the bottom of this group. There is no way all of these guys will make the HOF, and I think it will be tough for the voters to figure out which ones stood out.

I think Woodson & Harrison will have an edge due to the success of their teams, and Butler will also merit strong consideration due to his numbers, assuming the ones I couldn't find measure up well against the others.
:goodposting: Again, if it comes down to only pure stats, he probably won't get in. I can admit that. But like all subjective things, it hardly ever only boils down to stats.

We'll see. I think he's riding the fence. A Super Bowl this year would help him quite a lot.

 

SSOG

Moderator
I think Woodson & Harrison will have an edge due to the success of their teams...
If Denver wins this year, Lynch is the only guy with two rings on two different teams.
:goodposting:

Again, if it comes down to only pure stats, he probably won't get in. I can admit that. But like all subjective things, it hardly ever only boils down to stats.

We'll see. I think he's riding the fence. A Super Bowl this year would help him quite a lot.
I don't know. Defensive players are hard to judge entirely on stats. According to stats, Al Wilson is only the 105th best defensive player in the NFL, but according to the voters, he's first-team All-Pro. In that regard, Lynch stacks up well against the others- 3 All-Pros and 5 Pro-Bowls... and a chance to add at least a couple more Pro Bowls before it's all said and done. He'll also be helped by his name recognition and all of his off-the-field work, because let's face it... the voters certainly let that influence them.I do agree that he's probably not in, barring some postseason heroics. That all changes with one huge play in the superbowl. Postseason heroics make everyone forget all about ho-hum statistics- just ask Lynn Swann.

 

Just Win Baby

Footballguy
More thoughts.

The HOF by Positions page says there have been 17 defensive backs, but lists only 16. I'm not sure if there is a missing name or not. Here are the 16:

Herb Adderley (CB) 1961-1972 - class of 1980

Lem Barney (CB) 1967-1977 - class of 1992

Mel Blount (CB) 1970-1983 - class of 1989

Willie Brown (CB) 1963-1978 - class of 1984

Jack Christiansen (S) 1951-1958 - class of 1970

Mike Haynes (CB) 1976-1989 - class of 1997

Ken Houston (S) 1967-1980 - class of 1986

Jimmy Johnson (CB) 1961-1976 - class of 1994

Paul Krause (S) 1964-1979 - class of 1998

**** (Night Train) Lane (CB) 1952-1965 - class of 1974

Yale Lary (S) 1952-1953, 1956-1964 - class of 1979

Ronnie Lott (CB-S) 1981-1994 - class of 2000

Mel Renfro (S-CB) 1964-1977 - class of 1996

Emlen Tunnell (S) 1948-1961 - class of 1967

Larry Wilson (S) 1960-1972 - class of 1978

Willie Wood (S) 1960-1971 - class of 1989

By decade:

1 in the 1960s

4 in the 1970s

5 in the 1980s

5 in the 1990s

1 in the 2000s so far

I believe the only other DBs who have been HOF finalists (i.e., final 15) at any time within the past 10 years are Cliff Harris (1 time), Donnie Shell (1 time), and Lester Hayes (4 times).

Hayes was a semifinalist (i.e., final 25) this year, and I suppose it is possible that he could make it... but after being a finalist from 2001-2004, he hasn't been for the past 2 years, so I'm thinking it is unlikely.

The only other DB that was a semifinalist this year was Roger Wehrli.

Contrary to SSOG's assertion earlier, Atwater has never made the final 15. Not sure about previous years, but he was not even a semifinalist this year.

So... it isn't looking likely that any currently eligible DBs are going to make it, at least not early in their periods of eligibility. How about DBs not yet eligible?

Darrell Green last played in 2002, so he will be eligible in 2008. Leroy Butler last played in 2001, so he will be eligible in 2007. This gives Butler a nice window of 3 seasons to get in before the Woodsons, Williams, and Sanders become eligible, and I think he has a good chance to do that. None of the others we have been discussing will be eligible before 2010, so it seems likely this will be a lighter decade for DBs, with just 2 or 3.

Rod Woodson, Darren Woodson, and Aeneas Williams all last played in 2004, so they will be eligible in 2010. Assuming Deion doesn't play again, he will be eligible in 2011. Harrison, Dawkins, and Lynch will be eligible within a couple of years after that.

IMO their timing will hurt the chances of all of the safeties other than possibly Butler. I'm sure Sanders, Rod Woodson, and Williams will make it, and combined with Green & possibly Butler, that will be 4-5 DBs inducted within a relatively small window of about 5-6 years. I think this will make it very hard for these safeties to make it. I think Butler, Woodson, and Harrison have the strongest cases, and I find it hard to distinguish between them.

I don't really see Lynch with much of a chance at all, unless he substantially adds to his case in the remainder of this postseason and/or by continuing to play longer at a high level.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
EDIT to fill in some of Butler's stats I found at ESPN.com.  I must note that I found non-trivial discrepancies between ESPN's numbers and those at NFL.com for some of the others, so these numbers for Butler may not be correct.  If these numbers are correct, Butler has the most compelling case of any of these safeties IMO.
STATS, Inc. is generally a much more reliable source for defensive stats than either ESPN.com or NFL.com, IMHO:http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/players...=1764&Submit=Go

 
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