ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Honestly....he is probably dissapointed with his time.I thought he'd run faster.
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Jonathan Stewart (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ImTheScientist
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JAA
Footballguy
FWIW this has been the dig on Portis his entire stay in Washington. It has been said that his greatest improvement this year was his patience.I don't know, I checked the youtube highlights and what I saw there were very straight-forward holes where he didn't have to do anything but go straight. He didn't have to wait for the blocker to engage. He didn't have to take smaller steps or make a lateral move from one gap to the other behind the LOS to hit the open crease and he didn't have to make a cut or move in the hole to exploit another lane. Those plays aren't there. You know why? Because when he had to do those things he either: a) Ran straight into a defender or lineman and fell down. b) Got wrapped up and didn't get yardage after contactc) Tried to bounce it outside and was dragged down behind the LOS. I did not see one run that I"m talking about on YouTube highlights for McFadden. I don't think we're on the same page in terms of what I'm describing. Look at those runs on You tube and the initial hole at the LOS is at least a half a yard to a yard wide on either side of him with second level blocking. What makes his runs great is that he has the speed to hit these second level creases past the LOS so fast that he turns a normal 10-12 yard run into a 40-50 yard score. All the credit in the world goes to McFadden for having that kind of speed. He's blessed in this way. The problem is if he doesn't get (or see) the initial hole, he doesn't get as many of the 5-12 yard runs you'd see from a back with better vision to spot these holes, make a cut and explode through the crease. What I saw on film (and YouTube) were big holes--sometimes 3-4 yards in width with second level blocking. This happens maybe 3-4 times game in a competitive pro contest and a good RB exploits it 1-2 times.Wow. Even his youtube highlights are loaded with him doing an amazing job in this situation, waiting for the crease and exploding through it. It is the clearest vision I have of him in any game and on several runs. I cannot remember a back doing exactly what you say he doesn't do better than he does it.
JAA
Footballguy
I did. I said the same thing about Lendale White and Brandon Jackson. Passed up Jackson for Henry (eh, jury still out) and avoided Bush and White in all cases. Now, Bush in fairly deep PPR leagues will be productive, just not studly.
Okay; these are from July 06... a little outdated and if you look at pics from the combine, you can tell he has added a little more size to his lower body.I think it does make a good point though, and unless he becomes a bodybuilder, which wouldn't be good for his NFL career, he definitely does not have a lower body prototypical of a NFL RB, and probably never will. The only RB I can remember with the same build is Robert Smith.McFadden's build will not let him put the needed strength into his legs. His legs are the way they are....genetics. He doesn't have lower body strength and he never will.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tipsterhog/11...in/photostream/ <--- from another angle
dmac37
Footballguy
Can we break it down with who has the following advantages:
Speed- D Mac
Quickness- ? I would think D Mac but quickness is not speed, let's here it from the tape guys
Vision - ? I've heard cases for both
Size / BMI- I would say Stewart, seems to be a better success rate at his size vs D mac's
Breaking tackles- Stewart
Receiving- ?
Blocking- ?
Bottom line =
Speed- D Mac
Quickness- ? I would think D Mac but quickness is not speed, let's here it from the tape guys
Vision - ? I've heard cases for both
Size / BMI- I would say Stewart, seems to be a better success rate at his size vs D mac's
Breaking tackles- Stewart
Receiving- ?
Blocking- ?
Bottom line =
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Abraham
Footballguy
I would imagine so. You can only do your best, and I'm sure he tried, but to have so many people run faster than him after most folks thought he'd be one of the 2 or 3 fastest is probably disappointing. I doubt it will affect his draft spot though.Honestly....he is probably dissapointed with his time.I thought he'd run faster.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I'm up for that one. I think that's a great idea for people to observe and a learning experience for us watching. I think McFadden would be an excellent choice. Maybe we can do this in April? I have to finish the RSP, but April before the draft could be a very good time (first week or two of the month). I'll check the games I have of him and we'll find the same or we can ship the other a DVD of whatever game we use.See, this is why we need a multi person Break Down the Tape where we all look at the same tape and discuss it.I don't know, I checked the youtube highlights and what I saw there were very straight-forward holes where he didn't have to do anything but go straight. He didn't have to wait for the blocker to engage. He didn't have to take smaller steps or make a lateral move from one gap to the other behind the LOS to hit the open crease and he didn't have to make a cut or move in the hole to exploit another lane. Those plays aren't there. You know why? Because when he had to do those things he either: a) Ran straight into a defender or lineman and fell down. b) Got wrapped up and didn't get yardage after contactc) Tried to bounce it outside and was dragged down behind the LOS. I did not see one run that I"m talking about on YouTube highlights for McFadden. I don't think we're on the same page in terms of what I'm describing. Look at those runs on You tube and the initial hole at the LOS is at least a half a yard to a yard wide on either side of him with second level blocking. What makes his runs great is that he has the speed to hit these second level creases past the LOS so fast that he turns a normal 10-12 yard run into a 40-50 yard score. All the credit in the world goes to McFadden for having that kind of speed. He's blessed in this way. The problem is if he doesn't get (or see) the initial hole, he doesn't get as many of the 5-12 yard runs you'd see from a back with better vision to spot these holes, make a cut and explode through the crease. What I saw on film (and YouTube) were big holes--sometimes 3-4 yards in width with second level blocking. This happens maybe 3-4 times game in a competitive pro contest and a good RB exploits it 1-2 times.Wow. Even his youtube highlights are loaded with him doing an amazing job in this situation, waiting for the crease and exploding through it. It is the clearest vision I have of him in any game and on several runs. I cannot remember a back doing exactly what you say he doesn't do better than he does it.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Dickerson and Marcus Allen come to mind as well.Okay; these are from July 06... a little outdated and if you look at pics from the combine, you can tell he has added a little more size to his lower body.I think it does make a good point though, and unless he becomes a bodybuilder, which wouldn't be good for his NFL career, he definitely does not have a lower body prototypical of a NFL RB, and probably never will. The only RB I can remember with the same build is Robert Smith.McFadden's build will not let him put the needed strength into his legs. His legs are the way they are....genetics. He doesn't have lower body strength and he never will.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tipsterhog/11...in/photostream/ <--- from another angle
You're right. I'm just thinking out lod here, but I wonder how those two guys would fare today; the guys 15-20 years ago were a lot smaller/slower than today. Not saying they wouldn't be the great players they were, just something to think about.Dickerson and Marcus Allen come to mind as well.Okay; these are from July 06... a little outdated and if you look at pics from the combine, you can tell he has added a little more size to his lower body.I think it does make a good point though, and unless he becomes a bodybuilder, which wouldn't be good for his NFL career, he definitely does not have a lower body prototypical of a NFL RB, and probably never will. The only RB I can remember with the same build is Robert Smith.McFadden's build will not let him put the needed strength into his legs. His legs are the way they are....genetics. He doesn't have lower body strength and he never will.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tipsterhog/11...in/photostream/ <--- from another angle
I think the bottom line on Stewart is that he is a #16-25 first round pick. The combine didnt hurt or improve his status. It just confirmed that he is an exceptional athlete.
I think McFadden and Mendenhall will be drafted before him.
My guess is he will be drafted to one of these teams. Broncos, Cards, Texans, Seahawks
I cant see im falling to Seattle but who knows. Even the Eagles at #19 would be a good place for him.
I think McFadden and Mendenhall will be drafted before him.
My guess is he will be drafted to one of these teams. Broncos, Cards, Texans, Seahawks
I cant see im falling to Seattle but who knows. Even the Eagles at #19 would be a good place for him.
yellowdog
Footballguy
This is a quality posting. We may all have our preference, but arguments against the talent these guys possess is just nonsense.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Dickerson and Marcus Allen come to mind as well.Okay; these are from July 06... a little outdated and if you look at pics from the combine, you can tell he has added a little more size to his lower body.I think it does make a good point though, and unless he becomes a bodybuilder, which wouldn't be good for his NFL career, he definitely does not have a lower body prototypical of a NFL RB, and probably never will. The only RB I can remember with the same build is Robert Smith.McFadden's build will not let him put the needed strength into his legs. His legs are the way they are....genetics. He doesn't have lower body strength and he never will.Here is a picture of McFadden http://www.flickr.com/photos/tipsterhog/119072218/ <----- Notice the leg build vs Stewart.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tipsterhog/11...in/photostream/ <--- from another angle
When I see McFadden run I think of both of these guys.
KoolKat
Footballguy
You tell me? Im guessing close to the same if not favoring Stewart.How many runs of 30+ did each have?
The burden of proof is on the person that is amking a claim contrary to popular belief. Most people agree Stewart is fast, you are claiming he is not. Therefore, you have to provide the evidence.
KoolKat
Footballguy
If Stewart had the same amount as DMac would you change yours (last year). I like how you added in "Career Wise". You started looking at last years data and got nervous.If DMac had more than twice as many as Stewart (career wise), would you change your tune?You tell me? Im guessing close to the same if not favoring Stewart.How many runs of 30+ did each have?
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
Great links. A couple things stick out to me- McFadden was a better second half runner than Stewart. Given the knock on skinny legs and his aversion to contact, I would have expected the other way around. Second, look at the 3rd and 1-3 to go numbers. Stewart had a 67% conversion rate and an average of 5.94 yards. Long carry in these situations was 24 yards, McFadden's was 26, so we're not dealing with a stat skewed by outliers. McFadden in 3rd and 1-3 converted 56% of his carries and averaged 3.44 yards.One last thing that stood out to me, and I'm not sure how to interpret it, so this is merely an observation- McFadden was very effective when his team was losing. Stewart's numbers were terrible when Oregon was down. Stewart surprisingly never scored a TD when the Ducks were losing. This probably has a lot to do with having a guy like Dixon around, but ids interesting nonetheless.The Scientist said:McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
Mendenhall by comparison had 51 10+ and 16 20+ runs, was better in the second half of games, converted 65% of third and short carries averaging 4.3 ypc. He was also terrible when the Illini were down, except for a few big carries in blowouts (down by 15+)Great links. A couple things stick out to me- McFadden was a better second half runner than Stewart. Given the knock on skinny legs and his aversion to contact, I would have expected the other way around. Second, look at the 3rd and 1-3 to go numbers. Stewart had a 67% conversion rate and an average of 5.94 yards. Long carry in these situations was 24 yards, McFadden's was 26, so we're not dealing with a stat skewed by outliers. McFadden in 3rd and 1-3 converted 56% of his carries and averaged 3.44 yards.One last thing that stood out to me, and I'm not sure how to interpret it, so this is merely an observation- McFadden was very effective when his team was losing. Stewart's numbers were terrible when Oregon was down. Stewart surprisingly never scored a TD when the Ducks were losing. This probably has a lot to do with having a guy like Dixon around, but ids interesting nonetheless.The Scientist said:McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Seriously, McFadden lives for contact. Any halfhearted scouting report discusses this. He is a violent runner. There's several falsities being tossed around about him, but this one needs to stop. Even Baldinger, in his scathing hit piece, discussed how Darren runs over defenders (atrributing it erroneously to bad vision and suggesting he'll get hurt though he's been way more durable than Stewart). He loves contact, but is too capable to always engage.
2nd run is all patience and vision.
3rd run -- sick feet, by far the best lateral game in this class, by very very very very far. Stewart does not beat that guy and probably gets a few yards after contact. McFadden makes him miss and its off to the races.
4th run -- an aversion to contact.
check the first down marker on that vicious run.5th run -- waits waits, patient patient, set up the defense, set up the block, wham... gone!
7th run -- classic downhill cut and go between the tackles instincts.
The long speed is ridiculous, yet it takes three and four guys to get him down at times. The vision as good as it gets. The sense of timing and explosion, setting up blockers and reading defenses is on par with any back at any level. It's all just so natural some don't appreciate it in a skinny package.
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Some Split stat links for the following RB's 2007 season. Good source of info.
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Felix Jones
Rashard Mendenhall
Chris Johnson
Ray Rice
Mike Hart
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Felix Jones
Rashard Mendenhall
Chris Johnson
Ray Rice
Mike Hart
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Imagine McFadden in Oregon and Stewart in Arkansas. This doesn't go well for Stewart. McFadden dominates as a freshman in the SEC, what's he do to the Pac 10? Sit behind Terrence Whitehead like Stewart did? Yeah, I don't think so. Nor do I think he comes out on 3rd downs like Stewart did.
What would those stats look like?
They did play against very different competition. One faced by far the toughest most NFL like defenses in the country, the other faced some teams with very good offenses and defenses that are a random joke year in and year out. The stats don't tell the story unless you can switch them, which you can't. But common sense should tell you what they would look like. McFadden in the Pac 10. It would have been nutty.
What would those stats look like?
They did play against very different competition. One faced by far the toughest most NFL like defenses in the country, the other faced some teams with very good offenses and defenses that are a random joke year in and year out. The stats don't tell the story unless you can switch them, which you can't. But common sense should tell you what they would look like. McFadden in the Pac 10. It would have been nutty.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
The problem with your senario is it is based in college. It is not a projection to the future. See Joe Addai.
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
I guess I wasn't too clear- I don't buy the knock on him avoiding contact. I see where he does, and one on one I think he is very difficult to bring down. I don't see a lot of runs his going inside and then breaking legitimate tackles from LBs in the hole, but he is certainly willing to take on CBs and safeties on the corner which, combined with his speed leads to a lot of big runs. I think the 3rd and short yardage points to a guy who isn't a great between the tackles runner, something which, based on size and #s, Mendenhall and Stewart appear to be pretty good at doing. And by the way, showing highlight videos is one thing, seeing a whole football game is another. Sure, McFadden looks great on his highlights against SC, a team which Kevin Smith absolutely torched as well.Seriously, McFadden lives for contact. Any halfhearted scouting report discusses this. He is a violent runner. There's several falsities being tossed around about him, but this one needs to stop. Even Baldinger, in his scathing hit piece, discussed how Darren runs over defenders (atrributing it erroneously to bad vision and suggesting he'll get hurt though he's been way more durable than Stewart). He loves contact, but is too capable to always engage.
2nd run is all patience and vision.
3rd run -- sick feet, by far the best lateral game in this class, by very very very very far. Stewart does not beat that guy and probably gets a few yards after contact. McFadden makes him miss and its off to the races.
4th run -- an aversion to contact.
5th run -- waits waits, patient patient, set up the defense, set up the block, wham... gone!
7th run -- classic downhill cut and go between the tackles instincts.
The long speed is ridiculous, yet it takes three and four guys to get him down at times. The vision as good as it gets. The sense of timing and explosion, setting up blockers and reading defenses is on par with any back at any level. It's all just so natural some don't appreciate it in a skinny package.
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
Not a great argument. I don't think Stewart's not playing his freshman year had much to do with skill, it was more coaching philosophy. If you want to insinuate that McFadden was a hands down better runner out of high school than Stewart, I think you are very mistaken. If Stewart was sitting, I think it's safe to say McFadden would have as well. btw, Arkansas in 05- 4-7, oregon, 10-2. Stewart was on a much better team.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Who said anything about high school? This is getting lame.
It's a perfectly legit argument. Playing SEC Ds is much harder than playing PAC 10 Ds. Sometimes things are simple and not worth complicating.
We can go back and forth for 6 more months. I'm befuddled that anyone can watch these two play and not see the huge difference in ability McFadden has, but oh well. That's why they play the game, and I guess we wait and see. Nobody gets them all right. I hope they're both great and one lands in Dallas.
It's a perfectly legit argument. Playing SEC Ds is much harder than playing PAC 10 Ds. Sometimes things are simple and not worth complicating.
We can go back and forth for 6 more months. I'm befuddled that anyone can watch these two play and not see the huge difference in ability McFadden has, but oh well. That's why they play the game, and I guess we wait and see. Nobody gets them all right. I hope they're both great and one lands in Dallas.
EBF
Footballguy
I don't know how much I buy that. Both conferences feature the best talent from the region and put a lot of guys in the NFL. There may be a difference, but I don't think it's quite as huge as the SEC fans would have you believe. Football isn't as big on the West Coast, but California is a hotbed of athletic talent and it funnels right into all the Pac-10 schools. I'm a Stanford fan. The team has stunk over the past few years and yet it seems like almost half the starters on the defense have made the NFL (TJ Rushing, Mike Okwo, Julian Jenkins, Babatunde Oshinowo, OJ Atogwe, Leigh Torrence, Stanley Wilson). My point here is that even the bottom teams in the conference send plenty of guys to the league. As for your argument about who was better out of the gates, who cares? It's not where you start, it's where you finish. Slaton was unanimously considered a better prospect than Stewart a year ago. A year later you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone not named JAA who thinks Slaton is the better prospect. Some guys contribute immediately. Some guys are late bloomers. The only thing that matters is their pro potential. That doesn't mean McFadden isn't better, but I don't find these particular arguments compelling.
Ya the whole argument that it is easy to play in the PAC 10 is pretty weak IMO. SEC teams never will come west to play. Especially at Autzen Stadium in Eugene. Hell no one wants to come to either Oregon Schools to play because they have a pretty good chance of losing and why would they want to take the chance.
Come West and see for yourself.
Come West and see for yourself.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Agreed, but I feel the same way about the stats Scientist is posting so it was a ### for tat circular thing. Just playing along with all you devil's advocates. That's all this is at this point. Circular argument, very tedious, and I'll step aside here to wait and see. I think the necessary information is on the table for folks to make their best educated guesses, which is all we can do in the end. I think it's OJ vs. Fred Taylor. Two of my all time favorite players, btw.
Avery
Footballguy
Love the language filter.
az_prof
Footballguy
I don't think you can assume that much of a difference in defense between SEC and Pac 10 or any of the top conferences. As for what McFadden would do in Oregon, one of the negatives against both him and Jones IMO is that they played in a faddish offense that is not like anything in the NFL. It is really hard to know how those gaudy numbers will translate when they play in a more normal offense.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
You don't like facts?
Statistics are the best thing anyone can bring here. Its much better than a "BECAUSE"Wildman said:I'm up for that one. I think that's a great idea for people to observe and a learning experience for us watching. I think McFadden would be an excellent choice. Maybe we can do this in April? I have to finish the RSP, but April before the draft could be a very good time (first week or two of the month). I'll check the games I have of him and we'll find the same or we can ship the other a DVD of whatever game we use.ConstruxBoy said:See, this is why we need a multi person Break Down the Tape where we all look at the same tape and discuss it.Wildman said:I don't know, I checked the youtube highlights and what I saw there were very straight-forward holes where he didn't have to do anything but go straight. He didn't have to wait for the blocker to engage. He didn't have to take smaller steps or make a lateral move from one gap to the other behind the LOS to hit the open crease and he didn't have to make a cut or move in the hole to exploit another lane. Those plays aren't there. You know why? Because when he had to do those things he either: a) Ran straight into a defender or lineman and fell down. b) Got wrapped up and didn't get yardage after contactc) Tried to bounce it outside and was dragged down behind the LOS. I did not see one run that I"m talking about on YouTube highlights for McFadden. I don't think we're on the same page in terms of what I'm describing. Look at those runs on You tube and the initial hole at the LOS is at least a half a yard to a yard wide on either side of him with second level blocking. What makes his runs great is that he has the speed to hit these second level creases past the LOS so fast that he turns a normal 10-12 yard run into a 40-50 yard score. All the credit in the world goes to McFadden for having that kind of speed. He's blessed in this way. The problem is if he doesn't get (or see) the initial hole, he doesn't get as many of the 5-12 yard runs you'd see from a back with better vision to spot these holes, make a cut and explode through the crease. What I saw on film (and YouTube) were big holes--sometimes 3-4 yards in width with second level blocking. This happens maybe 3-4 times game in a competitive pro contest and a good RB exploits it 1-2 times.Chaos Commish said:Wow. Even his youtube highlights are loaded with him doing an amazing job in this situation, waiting for the crease and exploding through it. It is the clearest vision I have of him in any game and on several runs. I cannot remember a back doing exactly what you say he doesn't do better than he does it.Wildman said:
Now count me in for the results of this exercise. Unfortunately, I can't Break Down any Tape (unless you mean ripping it to shreds, and then I'd still have some trouble). But I'd love to hear what the two of you say, plus can you get in EBF, Bloom, Lammey, and others? Wow, that would be some great material.P.S. Be sure to invite the guy that thinks he can guess 40 times of runners on TV better than the official, electronic timer. 
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
But the issue is that this is just the highlights. Seeing a whole game gives a better picture. And for the record, I don't think I ever said he avoided contact. Just that he chooses contact over lateral cuts. He does this, IMHO, because he's so big and has gotten away with it in HS and College. I don't think he'll be able to do it as well in the NFL. Watch that 4th run again. What I see is a RB that never looks around when he breaks to the 2nd level, just sees the defender in front of him and tries to run him over. It seems to me that if he looks right, sees another defender coming in at a shallow angle, cuts to his right, he probably takes it the distance. Maybe I'm just nit-picking, but it's more about showing that he isn't bullet proof.Seriously, McFadden lives for contact. Any halfhearted scouting report discusses this. He is a violent runner. There's several falsities being tossed around about him, but this one needs to stop. Even Baldinger, in his scathing hit piece, discussed how Darren runs over defenders (atrributing it erroneously to bad vision and suggesting he'll get hurt though he's been way more durable than Stewart). He loves contact, but is too capable to always engage.
2nd run is all patience and vision.
3rd run -- sick feet, by far the best lateral game in this class, by very very very very far. Stewart does not beat that guy and probably gets a few yards after contact. McFadden makes him miss and its off to the races.
4th run -- an aversion to contact.check the first down marker on that vicious run.
5th run -- waits waits, patient patient, set up the defense, set up the block, wham... gone!
7th run -- classic downhill cut and go between the tackles instincts.
The long speed is ridiculous, yet it takes three and four guys to get him down at times. The vision as good as it gets. The sense of timing and explosion, setting up blockers and reading defenses is on par with any back at any level. It's all just so natural some don't appreciate it in a skinny package.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
The funny thing is that picture is from Stewart in HIGH SCHOOL. I remember seeing that picture before he came to Oregon.
Thats what I was going to say. As a U of O student Im kinda biased on who is my #1.The funny thing is that picture is from Stewart in HIGH SCHOOL. I remember seeing that picture before he came to Oregon.
broncofan13000
Footballguy
Lots of good stuff in this thread (some crap that you got to read through, but whatever)...still catching up.
Here's a list of the official (i think)40 times:
fflivewire - rb 40 times
eta:
these times may not all be official. Does anyone have a link that has the official times? Or are they even out yet?
Here's a list of the official (i think)40 times:
fflivewire - rb 40 times
eta:
these times may not all be official. Does anyone have a link that has the official times? Or are they even out yet?
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The guy is a beast. I watched him win state in the Washington 100m dash, and he was massive. Thats what I was going to say. As a U of O student Im kinda biased on who is my #1.The funny thing is that picture is from Stewart in HIGH SCHOOL. I remember seeing that picture before he came to Oregon.
Wildman
Footballguy
Good some examples. I'm going to nitpick these, but that's what I doSeriously, McFadden lives for contact. Any halfhearted scouting report discusses this. He is a violent runner. There's several falsities being tossed around about him, but this one needs to stop. Even Baldinger, in his scathing hit piece, discussed how Darren runs over defenders (atrributing it erroneously to bad vision and suggesting he'll get hurt though he's been way more durable than Stewart). He loves contact, but is too capable to always engage.
2nd run is all patience and vision.
3rd run -- sick feet, by far the best lateral game in this class, by very very very very far. Stewart does not beat that guy and probably gets a few yards after contact. McFadden makes him miss and its off to the races.
4th run -- an aversion to contact.check the first down marker on that vicious run.
5th run -- waits waits, patient patient, set up the defense, set up the block, wham... gone!
7th run -- classic downhill cut and go between the tackles instincts.
The long speed is ridiculous, yet it takes three and four guys to get him down at times. The vision as good as it gets. The sense of timing and explosion, setting up blockers and reading defenses is on par with any back at any level. It's all just so natural some don't appreciate it in a skinny package.
2nd run--I'm not sure how you can judge patience and vision on a close up because from what I'm seeing here (if I'm picking the right run is a very well blocked play with plenty of room. Give me a play where there is no opening at the LOS as he receives the ball and has to press the hole, cut back to another gap with a quick decision and no dancing around, or showing patience with timing his burst as the contact is made by his blockers down field. It's a bit difficult to see from this angle that he has what you're saying he has here.3rd run--this is a classic stutter move at full speed. It's nothing that special except for the fact he can do it his speed. Mendenhall can make these moves. So can Stewart. So can Matt Forte, Kevin Smith, and Jamaal Charles (who if he can hold onto the ball has IMO the best lateral moves you'll see in this class). I guess when I'm talking about a lateral move. I'm talking about a plant and cut where the RB takes a hard plant with one leg, stops very momentarily, and explodes in a different direction. Maroney is very good at this move. So was Edge in his heyday. LT and Emmitt Smith, too Stutter moves are very effective, but that's more of a juke than a lateral cut, IMO. I've watched Stewart make lateral cuts.
4th Run--I agree, I would never think McFadden has an aversion to contact, but this does fit into my example of a guy that tends to be more the bully in the 2nd and 3rd level of a defense with a running start of more than 5 yards. He had a 12-yard running start before taking on that LB. It was a nice play. I liked how he lowered his shoulders into the defender. He's excellent at maintaining balance with head-on collisions with a running start. I didn't see him do as well with indirect collisions to his legs, side, or from behind. A back like Corey Dillon was very good at bouncing off hits like these. Even MJD is good at this.
5th Run--toss sweep--again the angle is not great for the camera, but what I see is the backside getting completely blocked and a 5-7 yard alley except for the edge defender on the first offensive player in the foreground. This appears to me the equivalent of an open field run. Most backs have good open field vision against 1-2 defenders and can set up a run with moves. I'd like to see a play where he is in a tight space and has to show patience with blocks in traffic. I mean seriously, look at the guy in the foreground as McFadden passes him at the edge...that lane is at least 5-7 yards wide! It's an open field run. It's good patience in that way, but the type of patience you need for a sweep down field where the defensive line as spilled the play to the outside with good positioning against the linemen or each gap is filled and the RB has to show patience to stretch the play out before cutting back against the breakdown in the gap. Look at LJ or Holmes with KC's line from 2-3 years ago and you see patience of that sort on an outside run.
7th run--again, camera angle isn't great but holes look pretty wide. We're not going to see this very often in the NFL. This one I can't even judge based on the camera angle. Over the top angles show the hole line set up and what he's seeing ahead of him rather than what you see as a defender.
Like you said, speed is amazing and that makes him an SOB to bring down when he generates this momentum. Still, I just don't see anything here that has me feeling differently because I still think we're talking about different things when we say lateral movement, vision, and patience.
That's what makes grading with defined criteria very important with analysis of performance. We all know this from corporate style evaluations. You can take 5 people and have them evaluate an individual on a scale of 1-5 and you'll have debates about what constitutes a 1,2,3,4,and 5. Plus certain grading scales don't encompass enough factors to give a well-rounded observation.
I look forward to us watching the same game and discussing. Should be fun.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
The Scientist said:McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
JAA
Footballguy
Im here. Im looking for 30+ yard runs. Anyone?The Scientist said:McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
identikit
Footballguy
I'm looking for runs in the range of 42-47 yards....Anyone want to do all the work and find them for me?Im here. Im looking for 30+ yard runs. Anyone?The Scientist said:McFadden Vs. Stewart 2007
Darren McFadden
Jonathan Stewart
Last year McFadden had 15 runs over 20 yards and 48 runs over 10 yards
Last year Stewart had 12 runs over 20 yards and 54 runs over 10 yards
However, McFadden had 45 more carries on the year then Stewart did
----
I would argue that McFadden was not even the big play threat on that offense. Please see Exhibit C
----
JAA???
Oy
Id
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
JAA
Footballguy
You have 1, an amazing one, one of the best. Anyone else?
switz
Footballguy
Quite frankly, yes, the "official times" are highly suspect. They adjust the time based on "estimates"...i.e. - we think the wind assisted this player, so let's add .7 to their time. The track was soggy, let's subtract .13 from their time.The "official" times are highly inaccurate, and meaningless. Most scouts run their own stopwatches, and use their own times in their report, not the official ones.
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
Campbell 5'11" 232Shaun Alexander 5'11" 225Jamal Anderson 5'11" 237Ronnie Brown 6' 233Derrick Ward 5'11" 233LaMont Jordan 5'10" 230Jamal Lewis 5'11" 240Tyrone Wheatley 6'0" 235Just a few
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
Can add-Mike Anderson 6' 230Steven Davis 6' 230Marcel Shipp 5'11" 230Duce Staley 5'11" 240Lamar Smith 5'11" 230Maurice Smith 6' 235Curtis Enis 6' 242Bottom line, you can take a lot of different sizes and probably make a list that has some studs, some busts, and some nobodies. Same holds for McFadden and Mendenhall. The game has evolved to the point where Walter Payton would be considered undersized. What height and weight doesn't tell anyone about is skillset- I would venture that few of the above had 4.48 speed. That said, speeds for RBs have been decreasing over the years on average (at least in my perception) as people train specifically for the combine and sport science evolves. Along the same lines, I think it's probably possible that 235 pounds on a back today is distributed differently than it would have been 5-10 years ago. It's a pretty futile exercise really. You've got 3 pro bowl caliber running backs. None of them fit the 5'11" 215 pound mold a lot of people consider average or standard. All accomplished a lot in college. All have good upside. You can argue all day about body styles like Stewart and McFadden, and I think it contributes possibly to a greater chance that any of the 3 of them don't reach their potential. I don't think you can say someone at their size/shape won't make it in the NFL. More than body style, straight line speed, or any of these measurables, team situation is going to largely dictate success. Do they have a decent QB? Do they get the chance to carry the ball, and how often? Are they allowed to play on the goalline? Do they have a good offensive line in both run and pass blocking? Coaches, organizations, and players around them will dictate their success a lot more than 20 pounds or skinny calves.
switz
Footballguy
I'm wondering how Stewart had a better combine...Mendenhall ran a faster 40, faster shuttleStewart put up 225 2 more times, and jumps 3 inches higherI would imagine with their strength and jumping that close, teams would lean toward the faster, quicker RB. Plus, Mendenhall has more of the prototypical RB build than Stewart.
Jackie Treehorn
Footballguy
I don't think Stewart did the shuttle, so 'faster' doesn't really apply. Quicker is hard to judge therefore, and I think 3 inches on vertical isn't really that close. I don't disagree that Mendenhall didn't have a great combine, but it's hard to say if either was better. 2 more reps is just as big a difference as .03 seconds.
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