Jordan Shipley (1 Viewer)

[bigmiiiiike]

Someone with scouting knowledge please enlighten me. He was a very productive WR at Texas, and seems like the kind of guy who can play in the slot and rack up the receptions in the Bengals O. Why isn't he getting more love/hype in rookie drafts? Do his skills not translate well to the NFL? To my unenlightened self, he looks like he could be another Welker if they use him accordingly.

 

[Zoomanji]

Buried on the Bengals DC

At least a year or 2-3 till he can make an impact

Behind

Ocho

Bryant

fighting with Caldwell and Jones

Plus his upside is a slot/#3 guy. I myself am taking about 10 other WRs before them who have a better shot at being a 1/2 than he does IMO. Too bad too, bad situation for him, a different team (CAR?) drafts him and he's top 6 at WR

 

[Kinger]

From SI: (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2010/draft/players/12635.html)

Positives: Accomplished college receiver with marginal physical skills and upside for the next level. Fluid releasing off the line, displays sharpness into routes, and uses his frame to shield away opponents. Extends his hands to make the reception and offers the quarterback a nice target. Works hard running after the reception using his blocks everywhere on the field. Displays tremendous focus and concentration, comes away with the difficult reception in a crowd and easily adjusts to the errant throw. Outstanding eye/hand coordination, and is a sure-handed receiver. Recognizes defenses, and cuts short routes to find the open space on the field. Effective as a downfield blocker.

Negatives: Lacks a burst and not stretching the field vertically. Average quickness in his overall game. Benefited from the wide-open style of offense at Texas.

Analysis: Shipley did a good job at Texas and can be productive at the next level yet is unlikely to be anything other than a third or fourth receiver on the NFL level. His abilities as a punt returned are added value.

 

[bigmiiiiike]

Buried on the Bengals DCAt least a year or 2-3 till he can make an impactBehindOchoBryantfighting with Caldwell and JonesPlus his upside is a slot/#3 guy. I myself am taking about 10 other WRs before them who have a better shot at being a 1/2 than he does IMO. Too bad too, bad situation for him, a different team (CAR?) drafts him and he's top 6 at WR

To me that's not buried, but rather where he is supposed to be. I think he's a better slot WR than Caldwell and Jones. He's not going to overtake 85 or Bryant, but I think that's a good thing because he's probably better suited to be in the slot rather than split out wide. I felt the same way about Anthony Gonzales in that he'll put up better #s as a WR3 than a WR2.

 

[EBF]

His ceiling is as a slot WR. How many slot WRs are startable in FF? At best you're looking at a Davone Bess/Austin Collie type of career. No real upside unless you play in extremely deep formats. I don't think Shipley has Welker's quickness/elusiveness and he certainly doesn't have the benefit of playing with Tom Brady opposite Randy Moss. He's the the third best WR on his own team, maybe the fourth if Caldwell can beat him out. If anything, I'd say he's overvalued as a third round rookie pick.

Also, he's very old for a rookie. He will turn 25 at the end of this season. He's older than Sidney Rice, Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas, and DeSean Jackson.

 

[Moniker]

Buried on the Bengals DCAt least a year or 2-3 till he can make an impactBehindOchoBryantfighting with Caldwell and JonesPlus his upside is a slot/#3 guy. I myself am taking about 10 other WRs before them who have a better shot at being a 1/2 than he does IMO. Too bad too, bad situation for him, a different team (CAR?) drafts him and he's top 6 at WR

To me that's not buried, but rather where he is supposed to be. I think he's a better slot WR than Caldwell and Jones. He's not going to overtake 85 or Bryant, but I think that's a good thing because he's probably better suited to be in the slot rather than split out wide. I felt the same way about Anthony Gonzales in that he'll put up better #s as a WR3 than a WR2.

Comparing the slot in Indy to the slot in Cincy is probably not a great idea. Just in terms of slot WRs, being the slot on a team who throws the ball 62% of the time (IND) is a lot different than being the slot on a team who throws the ball 49% of the time (CIN).

 

[Zoomanji]

Buried on the Bengals DC

At least a year or 2-3 till he can make an impact

Behind

Ocho

Bryant

fighting with Caldwell and Jones

Plus his upside is a slot/#3 guy. I myself am taking about 10 other WRs before them who have a better shot at being a 1/2 than he does IMO. Too bad too, bad situation for him, a different team (CAR?) drafts him and he's top 6 at WR

To me that's not buried, but rather where he is supposed to be. I think he's a better slot WR than Caldwell and Jones. He's not going to overtake 85 or Bryant, but I think that's a good thing because he's probably better suited to be in the slot rather than split out wide. I felt the same way about Anthony Gonzales in that he'll put up better #s as a WR3 than a WR2.

You just made the case for why he's in the 3rd round

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Someone with scouting knowledge please enlighten me. He was a very productive WR at Texas, and seems like the kind of guy who can play in the slot and rack up the receptions in the Bengals O. Why isn't he getting more love/hype in rookie drafts? Do his skills not translate well to the NFL? To my unenlightened self, he looks like he could be another Welker if they use him accordingly.

Other than the color of his skin and his position he's really nothing like Welker. Shipley doesn't have the burst or short area quickness that makes Welker so successful and (without taking anything away for Shipley) Welker is tough as nails in traffic.I think SHipley drosp to the thrid round based on competion and having a limited upside. He'll be a role player at best in the NFL.

 

[massraider]

They have a whole bunch of receivers there. I am impressed by anyone that feels like they have a good reads on it. Caldwell could emerge, you never know what you get in Bryant, who was added along with Matt Jones, and Gresham at TE. Shipley has a lot of guys to climb over, now and in the future.

 

[Texasmouth]

If it wasn't for Welker's success, this guy wouldnt even be a 3rd round rookie pick in fantasy drafts. I am a huge fan of Welker and of Shipley but as someone said above, they are not very similar at all. People see a quick, under rated wide receiver now and immediately he is the next Wes Welker.

Shipley will be a great ST guy and will make some great catches but I dont know that he will ever make the huge impact Welker made.

 

[Steel Dillo]

Caldwell could emerge...

I thought Caldwell had a great season last year and would only build on it this year, but the Bengals brought in a lot of competition for the WR2 spot.

 

[LTF]

Plus, isn't Shipley like 25-26 years old already? Not to mention the injury concerns. There's just hardly any upside there at all, and I still don't trust Cincinnati's passing offense, Palmer is just a shell of his former self.

 

[Rushmore]

Caldwell could emerge...

I thought Caldwell had a great season last year and would only build on it this year, but the Bengals brought in a lot of competition for the WR2 spot.

He had a decent season. He started off fairly strong, catching some very timely clutch passes, but his production and play tapered off as the season progressed. And for a guy who timed as well as he did at the combine, his speed doesn't seem to translate as well on the field. The #1 and #2 spots seem pretty clear cut with Johnson and Bryant. The #3 spot should be interesting. I'd be happy to see Shipley win that job. The final Wr roster spots for making this season's team should be very competitive between Jones, Brisco, Cosby, Simpson, and Purify. I've even heard some speculate that Caldwell could be included as one who needs to earn a spot to stay on the team.

 

[Invictus~Bronte]

Shipley is better then Caldwell. The problem is the team philosophy at this point. Even with Chris Henry there, they didn't utilize him either, the 3 WR. They have become a run first smash mouth team like the rest of the Division. Matt Jones may stretch the field, but Palmer is nowhere near the QB he used to be to stand in the pocket and throw downfield.

I think Shipley will prove himself a very worthy 3, just that the team doesn't throw enough to warrant what could've been a great situation for Shipley fans.

 

[Big Petey]

Welker was undrafted and wasn't even invited to the NFL combine. He was signed as an undrafted free-agent by the Chargers and couldn't break into their line-up ahead of Keenan McCardell, Reche Caldwell, Kassim Osgood and Eric Parker and was cut after Week 1. He went to Miami and was the 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker.........and really made his mark there as a special teams player.

It wasn't until 3 years into his career, and a paring with Brady, that made this guy what he is today.

So, obviously, no one knows where Shipley's career is going to lead. But, at this point in his career, he's already thought of as a better prospect than Wes Welker was back in 2004. Even though, the Bengals taking a chance on him with a 3rd round pick, is probably directly related to Welker's success.

 

[massraider]

Welker was undrafted and wasn't even invited to the NFL combine. He was signed as an undrafted free-agent by the Chargers and couldn't break into their line-up ahead of Keenan McCardell, Reche Caldwell, Kassim Osgood and Eric Parker and was cut after Week 1. He went to Miami and was the 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker.........and really made his mark there as a special teams player.It wasn't until 3 years into his career, and a paring with Brady, that made this guy what he is today.So, obviously, no one knows where Shipley's career is going to lead. But, at this point in his career, he's already thought of as a better prospect than Wes Welker was back in 2004.

That doesn't mean anything. Every WR that has been drafted has to be considered a better prospect than Welker, at the time he came out of school.

 

[Big Petey]

Welker was undrafted and wasn't even invited to the NFL combine. He was signed as an undrafted free-agent by the Chargers and couldn't break into their line-up ahead of Keenan McCardell, Reche Caldwell, Kassim Osgood and Eric Parker and was cut after Week 1. He went to Miami and was the 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker.........and really made his mark there as a special teams player.It wasn't until 3 years into his career, and a paring with Brady, that made this guy what he is today.So, obviously, no one knows where Shipley's career is going to lead. But, at this point in his career, he's already thought of as a better prospect than Wes Welker was back in 2004.

That doesn't mean anything. Every WR that has been drafted has to be considered a better prospect than Welker, at the time he came out of school.

Exactly my point!! People are comparing Shipley to 2009 Welker. And, like someone already said, that comparison is probably more because of skin color than anything else.If you compare him to 2004 Wes Welker, Shipley is the more talented receiver..........and, like you said, so is every other WR in the draft.If NFL teams saw Welker as a receiver capable of 123 receptions in 13+ games in a season, would he have gone undrafted???

 

[massraider]

Welker was undrafted and wasn't even invited to the NFL combine. He was signed as an undrafted free-agent by the Chargers and couldn't break into their line-up ahead of Keenan McCardell, Reche Caldwell, Kassim Osgood and Eric Parker and was cut after Week 1. He went to Miami and was the 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker.........and really made his mark there as a special teams player.It wasn't until 3 years into his career, and a paring with Brady, that made this guy what he is today.So, obviously, no one knows where Shipley's career is going to lead. But, at this point in his career, he's already thought of as a better prospect than Wes Welker was back in 2004.

That doesn't mean anything. Every WR that has been drafted has to be considered a better prospect than Welker, at the time he came out of school.

Exactly my point!! People are comparing Shipley to 2009 Welker. And, like someone already said, that comparison is probably more because of skin color than anything else.If you compare him to 2004 Wes Welker, Shipley is the more talented receiver..........and, like you said, so is every other WR in the draft.If NFL teams saw Welker as a receiver capable of 123 receptions in 13+ games in a season, would he have gone undrafted???

Oh, I get ya. Misunderstood your post.There's no question the Welker stuff is race-related, because on the field, they couldn't be more different.

 

[Big Petey]

I agree!!

I'll believe all these guys about Shipley, when they show me their posts from 2004 saying "One day, Wes Welker will lead the NFL in receptions". Until then, anybody's guess is as good as their's.

 

[bigern1000]

Buried on the Bengals DC

At least a year or 2-3 till he can make an impact

Behind

Ocho

Bryant

fighting with Caldwell and Jones

Plus his upside is a slot/#3 guy. I myself am taking about 10 other WRs before them who have a better shot at being a 1/2 than he does IMO. Too bad too, bad situation for him, a different team (CAR?) drafts him and he's top 6 at WR

To me that's not buried, but rather where he is supposed to be. I think he's a better slot WR than Caldwell and Jones. He's not going to overtake 85 or Bryant, but I think that's a good thing because he's probably better suited to be in the slot rather than split out wide. I felt the same way about Anthony Gonzales in that he'll put up better #s as a WR3 than a WR2.

You just made the case for why he's in the 3rd round

I just grabbed him at 4.11 in one draft, most others I have been in have seen him go anywhere from 3.05-4.01, so it's not a bad place to pick him and stash him on the TS for a year or two to see what pans out...

 

[Verbal Kint]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.

They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

 

[finito]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

This could be true, but between Ocho/Bryant/Gresham how many balls will be left over for the Caldwell/Jones/Shipley/Briscoe's? It's rare that a 3rd WR on a team is a fantasy factor, and it's pretty crowded there right now. Could be a while before we see anything from those types.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Someone with scouting knowledge please enlighten me. He was a very productive WR at Texas, and seems like the kind of guy who can play in the slot and rack up the receptions in the Bengals O. Why isn't he getting more love/hype in rookie drafts? Do his skills not translate well to the NFL? To my unenlightened self, he looks like he could be another Welker if they use him accordingly.

couple years ago nobody ever heard of welker, now everybody's the next welker.there are currently 31 teams who don't have a welker.edit: oops...maybe 32....

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Caldwell could emerge...

I thought Caldwell had a great season last year and would only build on it this year, but the Bengals brought in a lot of competition for the WR2 spot.

Caldwell missed his window. He had the opportunity to emerge in the second half last season and failed. Of course, the Bengals also chose to ignore the fact that Palmer couldn't hit a moving or stationary target from December on, so it's hard to know how much of it was on Caldwell.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

Did they pick up a new QB?

 

[DansRams]

I'll take Gilyard and Roberts (2 wrs getting drafted at similar points in the draft) over Shiply any day.

 

[MAC_32]

He just went in the 5th in one of my rookie drafts, although this one has IDP too.

I think that's too early.

I got Easley a round later, I think he's a much, much better pick.

 

[Verbal Kint]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

Did they pick up a new QB?

yes, in 2003.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

Did they pick up a new QB?

yes, in 2003.

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

 

[Verbal Kint]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

This could be true, but between Ocho/Bryant/Gresham how many balls will be left over for the Caldwell/Jones/Shipley/Briscoe's? It's rare that a 3rd WR on a team is a fantasy factor, and it's pretty crowded there right now. Could be a while before we see anything from those types.

I wasn't commenting on Shipley's production (FWIW I'm not convinced he's even a starter this year). But people keep throwing out there that the Bengals won't pass anymore, without considering that they didn't have a choice last year.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Welker was undrafted and wasn't even invited to the NFL combine. He was signed as an undrafted free-agent by the Chargers and couldn't break into their line-up ahead of Keenan McCardell, Reche Caldwell, Kassim Osgood and Eric Parker and was cut after Week 1. He went to Miami and was the 3rd WR behind Chris Chambers and Marty Booker.........and really made his mark there as a special teams player.It wasn't until 3 years into his career, and a paring with Brady, that made this guy what he is today.So, obviously, no one knows where Shipley's career is going to lead. But, at this point in his career, he's already thought of as a better prospect than Wes Welker was back in 2004.

fyi -- pretty much everybody in the nfl is regarded as a better prospect than welker was in '04.that doesn't make them all welker.if you want to make the case that none of us knows what the future holds then I suggest you draft everybody.

 

[Abraham]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: in 4 years, Shipley is going to catch 100 balls and make the Pro Bowl and there will be a collective, "how did we miss on this guy" coming from GMs and message boards across the land.

 

[Zoomanji]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: in 4 years, Shipley is going to catch 100 balls and make the Pro Bowl and there will be a collective, "how did we miss on this guy" coming from GMs and message boards across the land.

Great a vote of confidence from Grandpa Simpson.I'm trading up for this guy

 

[Verbal Kint]

People need to get off this notion that the Bengals passing game will continue to be moribund in 2010. True they want to be a run first team, but they took it to the extreme last year because 1) the Oline couldn't pass protect 2) they had no TEs to speak of and 3) Coles was a major disappointment and Slim passed away leaving no one to catch the ball other than Ocho who was always doubled.They invested heavily in the passing game this offseason and I expect to see a much more balanced attack this year.

Did they pick up a new QB?

yes, in 2003.

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

 

[Fear & Loathing]

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

Yes, born and then raised for the first 32 years of my life in Cincinnati. Thanks for asking.Oh, and I'm not alone in seeing what I saw out of Palmer last year.

From today's Peter King column:

As I said, I'm worried about Carson Palmer. He looked like a shell of himself late last year -- in fact, he struck me the wrong way for much of the season after his five-touchdown shredding of the Bears. Cincinnati averaged 6.3 wins a year for the three years before last season. After watching how shaky they were in the playoff debacle against the Jets, I'm not convinced they've permanently turned the corner.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

Yes, born and then raised for the first 32 years of my life in Cincinnati. Thanks for asking.Oh, and I'm not alone in seeing what I saw out of Palmer last year.

From today's Peter King column:

As I said, I'm worried about Carson Palmer. He looked like a shell of himself late last year -- in fact, he struck me the wrong way for much of the season after his five-touchdown shredding of the Bears. Cincinnati averaged 6.3 wins a year for the three years before last season. After watching how shaky they were in the playoff debacle against the Jets, I'm not convinced they've permanently turned the corner.

I think the question should be "how did anyone not see that there was something obviously worng with Palmer"? He looked terrible for most of the season but particularly at season's end.

 

[humpback]

Palmer was clearly injured last season, he couldn't even hand off with his left hand for starters. This article covers a few theories. FWIW, Palmer did say that his arm is stronger than ever due to the exercises he's been doing to strengthen his elbow.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2010051...story+is+Palmer

 

[Verbal Kint]

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

Yes, born and then raised for the first 32 years of my life in Cincinnati. Thanks for asking.Oh, and I'm not alone in seeing what I saw out of Palmer last year.

From today's Peter King column:

As I said, I'm worried about Carson Palmer. He looked like a shell of himself late last year -- in fact, he struck me the wrong way for much of the season after his five-touchdown shredding of the Bears. Cincinnati averaged 6.3 wins a year for the three years before last season. After watching how shaky they were in the playoff debacle against the Jets, I'm not convinced they've permanently turned the corner.

So you're using Peter King as your source to back you up? That guy is a hack that hates the Bengals, and if that is your "expert" than you just lost. I don't care what QB you have, no one could be productive behind a line that couldn't pass protect coupled with WRs that couldn't get open.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Palmer was clearly injured last season, he couldn't even hand off with his left hand for starters. This article covers a few theories. FWIW, Palmer did say that his arm is stronger than ever due to the exercises he's been doing to strengthen his elbow.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2010051...story+is+Palmer

His left thumb was injured which totally destroyed any play action last year.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

Yes, born and then raised for the first 32 years of my life in Cincinnati. Thanks for asking.Oh, and I'm not alone in seeing what I saw out of Palmer last year.

From today's Peter King column:

As I said, I'm worried about Carson Palmer. He looked like a shell of himself late last year -- in fact, he struck me the wrong way for much of the season after his five-touchdown shredding of the Bears. Cincinnati averaged 6.3 wins a year for the three years before last season. After watching how shaky they were in the playoff debacle against the Jets, I'm not convinced they've permanently turned the corner.

So you're using Peter King as your source to back you up? That guy is a hack that hates the Bengals, and if that is your "expert" than you just lost. I don't care what QB you have, no one could be productive behind a line that couldn't pass protect coupled with WRs that couldn't get open.

Ok, fine. How about Ron Jaworski and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson? I think Dr. Octopus raises a good question: How could you possibly have missed Palmer's putrid passing late last season?

Also, interesting that you think Peter King hates the Bengals. He covered the Bengals for the Cincinnati Enquirer when he got started as a beater writer in the 1980s, and he's spoken highly of his time in Cincinnati.

 

[Verbal Kint]

So you're using Peter King as your source to back you up? That guy is a hack that hates the Bengals, and if that is your "expert" than you just lost. I don't care what QB you have, no one could be productive behind a line that couldn't pass protect coupled with WRs that couldn't get open.

Ok, fine. How about Ron Jaworski and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson? I think Dr. Octopus raises a good question: How could you possibly have missed Palmer's putrid passing late last season?

Also, interesting that you think Peter King hates the Bengals. He covered the Bengals for the Cincinnati Enquirer when he got started as a beater writer in the 1980s, and he's spoken highly of his time in Cincinnati.

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Everyone is. And I'm not ignoring his "putrid passing". I'm saying he was dealt a bad hand. If you give him adequate time and weapons that can 1) get open and 2) not drop everything, then he is still a top 12 QB in this league, maybe better. What about that do you object to?And while we're at it, let's dissect what Jaws and Williamson said about Palmer:

Jaws:

While Carson Palmer discounted having any elbow or arm problems, one person who sounded skeptical is ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski.

“I thought for most of the season he had a terrific season. I did not think he played well late in the season and in the playoffs and to me he looked like a wounded quarterback,” Jaworski said. “He didn’t have the accuracy or velocity I’m used to seeing out of Carson Palmer. It was not the same guy. Mechanics and all that were fine but he wasn’t accurate.”

Jaworski though also thought that there was a lack of chemistry among Palmer and his receivers last year compared to other seasons. Then again in other years he had Houshmandzadeh and Chris Henry, who got injured in the Week 9 win over Baltimore.

“In the game now you have to have three guys. That’s such a chemistry position,” Jaworski said. “The Antonio Bryant signing absolutely helps them. All they need now is a receiving tight end.”

Matt:

The weapons surrounding Carson Palmer in Cincinnati's passing game were detrimental to success in that portion of its offense. Palmer played hurt, he only had one legitimate downfield threat to speak of in Chad Ochocinco, and the running backs and tight ends contributed very little as receiving threats. The blocking was much better suited for paving the way for Cedric Benson than in pass protection.

With all that being said, Palmer must play better.

The Bengals won the AFC North last year, and now there are expectations surrounding this franchise. These are uncharted waters for Cincinnati, but Palmer is the captain of this vessel, and more production is needed.

All extenuating circumstances aside, Palmer didn't play as well last year as he has in previous years. Has he already peaked? It is a distinct possibility, and blame must be placed on him as well. He doesn't move well, and the ball doesn't come out of his hands the way it once did. Palmer too often perceived pressure that wasn't there, which tends to happen when quarterbacks have taken too many hits and lose their edge. He needs to stand tall and deliver the football as he once did.

Are these issues the product of playing injured? Quite possibly, but I can comment only on what he shows on tape. Palmer must correct the passing game and play better than he did a year ago.

The defense was a very solid, well-coached group, and there is a lot of young talent on that side of the ball. The running game -- led by Benson -- was extremely impressive and this physical power running game was a huge reason why the Bengals were the most physical team in their division in 2009. In these departments, Cincinnati was no fun at all to play against.

But the passing game held this team back, and as defenses figured out that Cincinnati struggled in this area, points became scarce. Including their wild-card loss to the Jets, the Bengals scored only 156 points after their Week 8 bye in those final 10 contests when everyone was stacking the line of scrimmage with defenders and doubling Ochocinco regularly.

They were shut out by the Jets in Week 17, and clearly they were not putting their best foot forward that week, but still, this is a passing league. More points and more explosive plays are required to hang with the big boys in the NFL. Palmer eclipsed 275 passing yards only once last year, and his 6.64 yards per attempt simply isn't good enough to get the Bengals to where they want to be. To keep up with Pittsburgh and Baltimore, Palmer must put up a good deal more than 16 points a game.

If anything, both of these prove my point. Palmer was limited by his surrounding cast. Palmer is a finesse quarterback that relies on timing and precision. He does need to play better. But with a better cast he definitely can. Everyone is so quick to forget the 4th quarter drives that he engineered last year. Everyone forgets that he had to fight with Marvin to go for the win against Cleveland instead of settling for the tie. Everyone claims he can't move, but he scrambled for more conversions when he had to last year than he ever has before. So don't tell me he's lost it. Anyone who says he's done clearly wasn't paying attention.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Everyone is. And I'm not ignoring his "putrid passing". I'm saying he was dealt a bad hand. If you give him adequate time and weapons that can 1) get open and 2) not drop everything, then he is still a top 12 QB in this league, maybe better. What about that do you object to?

1. Despite his insistence to the contrary, I think it's quite obvious that Palmer's wing isn't what it once was in terms of both accuracy and strength. 2. By the end of last season, Palmer had overtaken Eli Manning as the most over-rated player in the NFL.

3. I don't think the 2010 version of Carson Palmer is a top-12 QB. I'm not confident he'll be a top-15 QB this year.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Everyone is. And I'm not ignoring his "putrid passing". I'm saying he was dealt a bad hand. If you give him adequate time and weapons that can 1) get open and 2) not drop everything, then he is still a top 12 QB in this league, maybe better. What about that do you object to?

1. Despite his insistence to the contrary, I think it's quite obvious that Palmer's wing isn't what it once was in terms of both accuracy and strength. 2. By the end of last season, Palmer had overtaken Eli Manning as the most over-rated player in the NFL.

3. I don't think the 2010 version of Carson Palmer is a top-12 QB. I'm not confident he'll be a top-15 QB this year.

I disagree. Palmer was pretty inaccurate, no question. But when he's sailing his throws, that tells me he's not stepping in, which is a mental thing, not an arm strength thing. He had no confidence, and really wasn't passing enough to get in a rhythm.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

So you're using Peter King as your source to back you up? That guy is a hack that hates the Bengals, and if that is your "expert" than you just lost. I don't care what QB you have, no one could be productive behind a line that couldn't pass protect coupled with WRs that couldn't get open.

Ok, fine. How about Ron Jaworski and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson? I think Dr. Octopus raises a good question: How could you possibly have missed Palmer's putrid passing late last season?

Also, interesting that you think Peter King hates the Bengals. He covered the Bengals for the Cincinnati Enquirer when he got started as a beater writer in the 1980s, and he's spoken highly of his time in Cincinnati.

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Everyone is. And I'm not ignoring his "putrid passing". I'm saying he was dealt a bad hand. If you give him adequate time and weapons that can 1) get open and 2) not drop everything, then he is still a top 12 QB in this league, maybe better. What about that do you object to?And while we're at it, let's dissect what Jaws and Williamson said about Palmer:

Jaws:

While Carson Palmer discounted having any elbow or arm problems, one person who sounded skeptical is ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski.

“I thought for most of the season he had a terrific season. I did not think he played well late in the season and in the playoffs and to me he looked like a wounded quarterback,” Jaworski said. “He didn’t have the accuracy or velocity I’m used to seeing out of Carson Palmer. It was not the same guy. Mechanics and all that were fine but he wasn’t accurate.”

Jaworski though also thought that there was a lack of chemistry among Palmer and his receivers last year compared to other seasons. Then again in other years he had Houshmandzadeh and Chris Henry, who got injured in the Week 9 win over Baltimore.

“In the game now you have to have three guys. That’s such a chemistry position,” Jaworski said. “The Antonio Bryant signing absolutely helps them. All they need now is a receiving tight end.”

Matt:

The weapons surrounding Carson Palmer in Cincinnati's passing game were detrimental to success in that portion of its offense. Palmer played hurt, he only had one legitimate downfield threat to speak of in Chad Ochocinco, and the running backs and tight ends contributed very little as receiving threats. The blocking was much better suited for paving the way for Cedric Benson than in pass protection.

With all that being said, Palmer must play better.

The Bengals won the AFC North last year, and now there are expectations surrounding this franchise. These are uncharted waters for Cincinnati, but Palmer is the captain of this vessel, and more production is needed.

All extenuating circumstances aside, Palmer didn't play as well last year as he has in previous years. Has he already peaked? It is a distinct possibility, and blame must be placed on him as well. He doesn't move well, and the ball doesn't come out of his hands the way it once did. Palmer too often perceived pressure that wasn't there, which tends to happen when quarterbacks have taken too many hits and lose their edge. He needs to stand tall and deliver the football as he once did.

Are these issues the product of playing injured? Quite possibly, but I can comment only on what he shows on tape. Palmer must correct the passing game and play better than he did a year ago.

The defense was a very solid, well-coached group, and there is a lot of young talent on that side of the ball. The running game -- led by Benson -- was extremely impressive and this physical power running game was a huge reason why the Bengals were the most physical team in their division in 2009. In these departments, Cincinnati was no fun at all to play against.

But the passing game held this team back, and as defenses figured out that Cincinnati struggled in this area, points became scarce. Including their wild-card loss to the Jets, the Bengals scored only 156 points after their Week 8 bye in those final 10 contests when everyone was stacking the line of scrimmage with defenders and doubling Ochocinco regularly.

They were shut out by the Jets in Week 17, and clearly they were not putting their best foot forward that week, but still, this is a passing league. More points and more explosive plays are required to hang with the big boys in the NFL. Palmer eclipsed 275 passing yards only once last year, and his 6.64 yards per attempt simply isn't good enough to get the Bengals to where they want to be. To keep up with Pittsburgh and Baltimore, Palmer must put up a good deal more than 16 points a game.

If anything, both of these prove my point. Palmer was limited by his surrounding cast. Palmer is a finesse quarterback that relies on timing and precision. He does need to play better. But with a better cast he definitely can. Everyone is so quick to forget the 4th quarter drives that he engineered last year. Everyone forgets that he had to fight with Marvin to go for the win against Cleveland instead of settling for the tie. Everyone claims he can't move, but he scrambled for more conversions when he had to last year than he ever has before. So don't tell me he's lost it. Anyone who says he's done clearly wasn't paying attention.

You bolded the parts you liked (a/k/a "the fluff" from analysts trying not to completely bury Palmer) and skipped the important parts:

I did not think he played well late in the season and in the playoffs and to me he looked like a wounded quarterback,” Jaworski said. “He didn’t have the accuracy or velocity I’m used to seeing out of Carson Palmer. It was not the same guy. Mechanics and all that were fine but he wasn’t accurate.”

He doesn't move well, and the ball doesn't come out of his hands the way it once did. Palmer too often perceived pressure that wasn't there, which tends to happen when quarterbacks have taken too many hits and lose their edge. He needs to stand tall and deliver the football as he once did.

Are these issues the product of playing injured? Quite possibly, but I can comment only on what he shows on tape. Palmer must correct the passing game and play better than he did a year ago.

Nobody is saying Palmer's weapons were adequate late last season. But that doesn't change the fact that his passing was brutal . . . and that he probably should have elected for surgery instead of rehabbing his elbow.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Are you brain dead? I clearly stated in my last post that he had a confidence problem. But that has nothing to do with his arm.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Are you brain dead? I clearly stated in my last post that he had a confidence problem. But that has nothing to do with his arm.

So you're ignoring all evidence and analysis that run counter to your opinion? OK, it's been fun.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Are you brain dead? I clearly stated in my last post that he had a confidence problem. But that has nothing to do with his arm.

So you're ignoring all evidence and analysis that run counter to your opinion? OK, it's been fun.

 

[KellysHeroes]

Palmer hasn't been the same since the knee injury

I thought this thread was about Shipley

 

[QuizGuy66]

The same one who couldn't throw accurately or horizontally in December and January?

Did you even watch a Bengals football game last year?

Yes, born and then raised for the first 32 years of my life in Cincinnati. Thanks for asking.Oh, and I'm not alone in seeing what I saw out of Palmer last year.

From today's Peter King column:

As I said, I'm worried about Carson Palmer. He looked like a shell of himself late last year -- in fact, he struck me the wrong way for much of the season after his five-touchdown shredding of the Bears. Cincinnati averaged 6.3 wins a year for the three years before last season. After watching how shaky they were in the playoff debacle against the Jets, I'm not convinced they've permanently turned the corner.

So you're using Peter King as your source to back you up? That guy is a hack that hates the Bengals, and if that is your "expert" than you just lost. I don't care what QB you have, no one could be productive behind a line that couldn't pass protect coupled with WRs that couldn't get open.

Using Peter King as a source on the Bengals is kinda like using LHUCKS to support an anti-Pac-10 argument Seriously, dude hates us to comical degrees. Like Mike Brown once served him warmed over coffee once and he's never gotten overt it.Edge rushers were absolutely killing us late last year - Palmer didn't have the time and Coles and Coats were spiking balls to the ground all over the place instead of catching them.

-QG

-QG