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Jordan's Bulls vs the Warriors of the past 3 years (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Riversco
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Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I don't recall if specific instructions were given, but looking at the selection committee they chose, it's fair to say they were was seeking to tell the history of the league when naming its greatest players. I doubt many on the selection committee would argue Paul Arizin at peak could beat Dominique Wilkins at peak in a game of one-on-one, but Arizin made the list and Nique didn't.
Tau837
Footballguy
The post I originally responded to on that said Jordan would take Curry, Pippen would take Thompson, and Rodman would take Durant. Which would leave no one for Harper, unless he was to take Green. That doesn't make sense. I also don't think it makes sense to put Rodman on Durant, other than an occasional different look. Durant would either draw him away from the basket (and rebounds) or get open 3 pointers. So to me, Pippen is on Durant and Rodman is on Green. If Green goes out to shoot a bunch of 3 pointers, you can more easily live with that. Plus, you want Rodman on Green to get under his skin, much easier to do with Green than Durant.
Certainly, it could be Jordan on Curry and Harper on Thompson, but it seems to me that more energy is required to guard Curry, and I expect the Bulls would choose to let Jordan spend that bit of extra energy on offense.
As I originally said, there would be cross matching and switching at times, so the truth is that he would be on Curry a fair amount.
As for Jordan taking IT on defense, when are you talking, late 80s, early 90s? We are talking 5+ years later. And taking Stockton on defense is not nearly the challenge of taking Curry, plus I don't really recall Stockton being Jordan's match in the 97/98 Finals... I thought Jordan took Hornacek and Harper took Stockton.
Tau837
Footballguy
Let me just add this again, directed to all those who think the Warriors would win easily. You appear to be giving exactly zero weight to Phil Jackson vs. Mike Brown. Is that really what you think? Is Jackson, arguably the best NBA HC of all time, really worthless in this matchup? I certainly don't think so.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Sure but the difference in NBA players from 94-2017 is pretty minor imo. Arizin wasn't big enough that play forward in any modern NBA era. Pippen is the physical ideal of a 2017 forward.
Tau837
Footballguy
Exactly. It is pretty obvious that they were talking about the 50 greatest careers, which implies relative to era.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
https://youtu.be/dEPWjG3K0voThe post I originally responded to on that said Jordan would take Curry, Pippen would take Thompson, and Rodman would take Durant. Which would leave no one for Harper, unless he was to take Green. That doesn't make sense. I also don't think it makes sense to put Rodman on Durant, other than an occasional different look. Durant would either draw him away from the basket (and rebounds) or get open 3 pointers. So to me, Pippen is on Durant and Rodman is on Green. If Green goes out to shoot a bunch of 3 pointers, you can more easily live with that. Plus, you want Rodman on Green to get under his skin, much easier to do with Green than Durant.
Certainly, it could be Jordan on Curry and Harper on Thompson, but it seems to me that more energy is required to guard Curry, and I expect the Bulls would choose to let Jordan spend that bit of extra energy on offense.
As I originally said, there would be cross matching and switching at times, so the truth is that he would be on Curry a fair amount.
As for Jordan taking IT on defense, when are you talking, late 80s, early 90s? We are talking 5+ years later. And taking Stockton on defense is not nearly the challenge of taking Curry, plus I don't really recall Stockton being Jordan's match in the 97/98 Finals... I thought Jordan took Hornacek and Harper took Stockton.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Good points, you convinced meThe post I originally responded to on that said Jordan would take Curry, Pippen would take Thompson, and Rodman would take Durant. Which would leave no one for Harper, unless he was to take Green. That doesn't make sense. I also don't think it makes sense to put Rodman on Durant, other than an occasional different look. Durant would either draw him away from the basket (and rebounds) or get open 3 pointers. So to me, Pippen is on Durant and Rodman is on Green. If Green goes out to shoot a bunch of 3 pointers, you can more easily live with that. Plus, you want Rodman on Green to get under his skin, much easier to do with Green than Durant.
Certainly, it could be Jordan on Curry and Harper on Thompson, but it seems to me that more energy is required to guard Curry, and I expect the Bulls would choose to let Jordan spend that bit of extra energy on offense.
As I originally said, there would be cross matching and switching at times, so the truth is that he would be on Curry a fair amount.
As for Jordan taking IT on defense, when are you talking, late 80s, early 90s? We are talking 5+ years later. And taking Stockton on defense is not nearly the challenge of taking Curry, plus I don't really recall Stockton being Jordan's match in the 97/98 Finals... I thought Jordan took Hornacek and Harper took Stockton.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
I remember watching Jerry Stackhouse average 29.8 points per game for a bad Pistons team in 2000-01 because they could just run isos for him all day and the illegal defense rules made help defense nearly impossible. I don't have much nostalgia for that type of basketball.
The Bulls were well-suited for that style because they had players (especially Jordan) who excelled in 1-on-1 situations at both ends. But in today's game they wouldn't have the shooters needed to create space offensively, and the impact of having 3 great individual defenders would be much less against a modern offense like the Warriors with 4 3-point threats and a lot more movement.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eewCYox5MuI
I remember watching Jerry Stackhouse average 29.8 points per game for a bad Pistons team in 2000-01 because they could just run isos for him all day and the illegal defense rules made help defense nearly impossible. I don't have much nostalgia for that type of basketball.
The Bulls were well-suited for that style because they had players (especially Jordan) who excelled in 1-on-1 situations at both ends. But in today's game they wouldn't have the shooters needed to create space offensively, and the impact of having 3 great individual defenders would be much less against a modern offense like the Warriors with 4 3-point threats and a lot more movement.
Steadymobbin has made it very clear that players from that era are infallible. Therefore Payton is correct, Stockton was harder to guard than Jordan.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm just saying. Whether he was or not, he was clearly hard to guard for elite defenders.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Steve Kerr is the coach of the Warriors. He's not in the 2017 playoffs, but everything they're doing now is a product of his work. I wouldn't be surprised if he's also advising on rotations and matchups behind the scenes in these playoffs.
Phil Jackson was great at managing superstars and egos (something Kerr obviously does pretty well himself) but IMO he's just a good coach who fell bassackwards into perfect situations. He never really had a team overachieve the way Kerr did with the 2015 Warriors. And he's set the Knicks back years just by getting involved with them due to his inflexibility.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
We can all agree that Shaq isn't so far out of the game that he wouldn't be dominant at his best years if they were now, right? Shaq is still a beast?
How did Shaq do against Jordan and those Bulls when Shaq was in his most physically dominant form?
How did Shaq do against Jordan and those Bulls when Shaq was in his most physically dominant form?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The triangle offense is perhaps the most dominant coaching philosophy in the history of basketball. Phil Jackson executed it better than any coaching staff in history.
How many championships do Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, and Shaq have without Phil Jackson?
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Tau837
Footballguy
I'm not sure what you think this video shows. I watched it, and the vast majority of the plays shown do not show Jordan matched up on Stockton, most show others like Harper or Randy Brown on him. On the ones that show Jordan matched up on Stockton, it is typically because Kukoc and/or Kerr are on the floor, and Harper and Brown are not. On the ones with Harper on the floor, it is sometimes hard to tell if they got crossmatched in transition.
The guy who posted the video even stated that Jordan rarely matched up 1 on 1 with Stockton in those two Finals.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I hate Phil Jackson, in fact literally once almost killed him, but come on man.
Tau837
Footballguy
Jackson isn't the HC of the Knicks. Apples and oranges.
We can just agree to disagree that Kerr not on the sidelines + Brown on the sidelines is a wash with Jackson on the sidelines.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It shows that you were correct and that Jordan's work on Stockton, though great, was mostly a result of defensive switches caused by the offense being what it was. That's all.I'm not sure what you think this video shows. I watched it, and the vast majority of the plays shown do not show Jordan matched up on Stockton, most show others like Harper or Randy Brown on him. On the ones that show Jordan matched up on Stockton, it is typically because Kukoc and/or Kerr are on the floor, and Harper and Brown are not. On the ones with Harper on the floor, it is sometimes hard to tell if they got crossmatched in transition.
The guy who posted the video even stated that Jordan rarely matched up 1 on 1 with Stockton in those two Finals.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Dedfin
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
It would be really, really close.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
If you're just looking at starting 5, Bulls would win, but when you consider the benches Dubs have a better roster. Then you add in the 3 point shooting of Curry, Klay, and Durant and I think that edges them over the Bulls.
Watching Rodman and Draymond go at it would have been awesome, though it's a mental battle that Rodman would eventually win.
Watching Rodman and Draymond go at it would have been awesome, though it's a mental battle that Rodman would eventually win.
matuski
Footballguy
Watching Rodman and Green go at it with today's rules would be boring as hell.
Watching Rodman and Green go at it with the 90s rules would be boring as hell.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
That type of basketball was rare because it wasnt very successful. If more people came to help on jordan he would easily find the open man.
I remember watching Jerry Stackhouse average 29.8 points per game for a bad Pistons team in 2000-01 because they could just run isos for him all day and the illegal defense rules made help defense nearly impossible. I don't have much nostalgia for that type of basketball.
The Bulls were well-suited for that style because they had players (especially Jordan) who excelled in 1-on-1 situations at both ends. But in today's game they wouldn't have the shooters needed to create space offensively, and the impact of having 3 great individual defenders would be much less against a modern offense like the Warriors with 4 3-point threats and a lot more movement.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yeah, it's weird that no other coaches have been able to make it work, even Jackson disciples and teams assembled by Jackson specifically to run it. Must be their own flawed coaching. Can't possibly be that the triangle is a gimmick that produces the sort of shots that modern NBA analytics have shown to be very inefficient and that it worked in Chicago and LA only because of the talent involved and that those teams would get killed by a team that has roughly equivalent talent plus the advantages of efficient shot-taking and defending.
Gustavo Fring
Footballguy
Rodman would make Draymond Green his little #####.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Statorama
Footballguy
First off, if they're playing by the rules that the Jordan Bulls played under, I doubt the Warriors make the finals and ever meet the Bulls.
Second, the Jordan-less Bulls with Pippen could have probably taken this bunch.
It was a tougher game back then, both mentally and physically. [Insert other hyperbole that can't be verified here]
Second, the Jordan-less Bulls with Pippen could have probably taken this bunch.
It was a tougher game back then, both mentally and physically. [Insert other hyperbole that can't be verified here]
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Heck, Vince is still able to be viable today at 40.Protocols of Stringer Bell said:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The actual difference between your current NBA metric of "Triangle Offense low quality shots" versus "genius Steph Curry ZOMG" is literally for players in the triangle to take one step backwards.TobiasFunke said:
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Yah because an all time great 7 foot scorer flanked by 2 of the best shooters ever in a ball movement based offense will suddenly find it hard to score in Jordan's days. The defense the Dubs play translates to an era. The only weakness is rebounding, but if Rodman has to come out to the 3 point line to guard Draymond...how much of a factor is he?
Gustavo Fring
Footballguy
I don't remember the Bulls ever needing 4 all-stars to make sure they lock down another ring.
I also don't remember Jordan ever blowing a 3-1 Finals lead. The Cavs had one all-star selection last year in LeBron and that was enough to de-throne the almighty Warriors.
I also don't remember Jordan ever blowing a 3-1 Finals lead. The Cavs had one all-star selection last year in LeBron and that was enough to de-throne the almighty Warriors.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yeah, I mean when would he ever have seen such a great shooting big man? I mean, other than Arvyad Sabonis, perhaps the most versatile big man in the history of the game, who went 0-4 from behind the arc, 3-11 from the field while Rodman still snagged 15 rebounds in 1997. But other than that.
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Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Draymond runs point forward, not just stationary at the 3 point line and when Sabonis got to the NBA the guy could barley move.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
If they're gonna get the whole triangle back there they're gonna need to take more than one step.
Honestly there aren't many defenders of the Triangle these days. My perspective is all secondhand from people like Haralabob and the folks at Bball Breakdown, the former of whom thinks it's outdated garbage that was no more than a loose structure back in the day anyway, and the latter of whom gives it mixed reviews. Plus I know the recent results. It's not really worth discussing though, as it's not that important to my underlying point that the Warriors would absolutely slaughter the Jordan-era Bulls.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Yah, the question was Bulls vs this year's Warriors....not last years. Bulls easily destroy the past two Dubs teams, but the Dubs plus Durant is a different story.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Arvyad Sabonis was a 7'3" center, dominated in the paint, and shot 33% from the 3-point line for his career.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
That's the difference between the Jackson/Winter version and the half-###ed versions run by other coaches. Kind of my whole point.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I think people are forgetting that the defensive switch was invented by Gregg Popovich in 2005 as a countermeasure to the D'Antoni offense. The 96 Bulls wouldn't know how to switch on defense, nor would they know how to react when the Warriors started doing it against them.
