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Keto II (3 Viewers)

Getzlaf15 said:
OK, so I've read some of this thread and a few articles on interment fasting.

Last Monday, I started and went 16 hours.  Didn't eat til 4pm.

It's been 12 or 16 hours everyday, except Sat and Sun where I had very light scrambled eggs at 9am.

Lost 13 lbs in first week.

Am I going to die soon?   Suggestions?
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Keep it up!  sounds like we may be needing to take suggestions from you soon

 
shader said:
Can someone explain the "fat-adapted" thing to me like I'm a kid?

A buddy is telling me that as soon as I hit ketosis, I'm burning fat for fuel.  But I was under the impression that I had to get fat-adapted.  So if I have no glycogen in my system due to me being keto for a week, and fat-adaptation can take up to a month, what am I burning for fuel?

Also, it seems as if I've read that in the initial stages, exercise can be detrimental (especially when you're tired as I am now).  Is this true or am I just being a wimp?  

One of the reasons I'm doing this lifestyle is I feel lethargic and I'm hoping for energy that just isn't there at the moment.
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This seems to be a pretty good write up.  Some key points that stood out to me:

If you jumped in with both feet and went low-carb quickly, rather than making a gradual transition, you likely experienced the “induction flu” or “keto flu” – pounding headache, dizziness, nausea, and some other fun stuff. This is what happens when you are in ketosis but not fat-adapted. Your body is deprived of the copious amounts of carbohydrate it’s accustomed to, and your insulin levels have fallen low enough that you are beginning to break down fats for fuel instead of that endless stream of glucose. However, because it’s only been a couple of days, your body has not yet fully ramped up the enzymes and mitochondrial machinery required to properly and effectively utilize those fatty acids and ketones. So you’re in this hellish limbo we call the induction flu. Your body is producing ketones, but it’s not using them (or fatty acids) very well just yet. (It is still wanting to use glucose. Glycolytic enzymes are going crazy looking for—but not finding—glucose.) This is probably the simplest example I can give of being in ketosis but not being fat-adapted.
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You can be fat-adapted without being in ketosis.
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My point is, there is a difference between being fat-adapted and being in ketosis. Maintaining a perpetual state of ketosis (especially deep-ish ketosis) may be particularly beneficial for certain conditions, such as cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, and other neurological & neurodegenerative conditions. But as many of us know quite well, ketosis doesn’t guarantee fat loss. For fat loss, it is far more important to be fat-adapted than to shoot for high ketones all the time. 
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culdeus said:
I've had luck cycling with resistant starches.  When I have #### carbs my whole system breaks down after a couple days :toilet:   then a few days later :X  .  
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Talk to me more about resistant starches.  I'm interested in feeding my gut biome but I'm not sure how well they interact with keto.   I was consuming two tablespoons of potato starch a day in water.

 
Nugget said:
Talk to me more about resistant starches.  I'm interested in feeding my gut biome but I'm not sure how well they interact with keto.   I was consuming two tablespoons of potato starch a day in water.
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I don't really do the potato starch thing, I would do cyclical keto on more of a 5/2 plan using whole foods to get the resistant starches from on the down cycle days.  That was back when I was more strict doing what amounted to the leangains protocol 5 days a week and what most would call "primal" 2 days a week.   Primal has lots of whole food resistant starches on the plan, but I wouldn't eat like bags of potatoes or anything.   I've never been on about this to lose tons of weight, just to be clear.  

 
culdeus said:
I've gotten super sloppy lately.  My acid reflux (The reason I trended toward keto and then keto-cycling) is back with a vengeance.  I considered just going to a dr. for a PPI but #### that.  

Picked up two deer at the processor and plan on doing BambiKeto(tm) shortly.  

Also, since there are some tuna/chicken salad eaters here.  Do you have success making a batch on Sunday and freezing/thawing for late week?  Does it taste like bathroom grout at that point or what?
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did you get any jerky made from your deer?

 
AcerFC said:
Been on this since Jan 2nd. I have no excess energy. Where is my excess energy. Also havent lost much the last two weeks.
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Do you log your food anywhere Acer? I would love to see what you are eating. How many calories are you getting in? Enough fat (9kcal of energy per gram) Are you getting enough salt in your diet? Just because the scale is not losing does not mean you are not. Measure yourself. Try on some smaller clothes. I will go a couple weeks and lose one pound. Then I suddenly will lose 4 solid pounds after the "whoosh". Plus my weight fluxuates a ton. I was 204 on Friday, Monday morning weigh in 209.   

 
The Gator said:
also when i first started keto i did IF with one 36+/- hour fast per week. weight melts off of you when you do that. 
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Holy crap I am not ready for a 36 hour. I will go 16/8 during the week. I drink coffee and water in the morning. Around 1:30 I will eat lunch. Finish eating dinner by 7:30 and repeat the next day.

 
pack100 said:
Holy crap I am not ready for a 36 hour. I will go 16/8 during the week. I drink coffee and water in the morning. Around 1:30 I will eat lunch. Finish eating dinner by 7:30 and repeat the next day.
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Are you doing that all week?  If yes, how long have you done it?

 
Otis said:
:unsure:  
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I see you Otis.  Like me, you've tried and failed at keto many times.  This time is for realz....why?  Go read some Gary Taubes first, then read Mark Sisson.  His new book "The Keto Reset Diet" began with 4 amazing chapters on the science of keto/carbs.  I truly think this is THE WAY to eat and that crap carbs are responsible for so much of what we attribute to the normal aging process.  (cancer, diabetes, dementia [something I'm dealing with in my family atm :( ] and of course obesity).

Anyway, those books helped me realize that keto wasn't just another fad diet...a fact I knew once before, but somehow lost sight of over time.

 
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Getzlaf15 said:
Are you doing that all week?  If yes, how long have you done it?
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When I do IF, which is most of the time, I do a similar protocol most of the time and did it almost all of last year where I lost almost 60 pounds. Most days I would not eat until closer to 4pm, and I would be done eating by about 10pm, so more of a 18/6 daily protocol. For my schedule it works very well, as I am usually at work by 6:30am and off around 3. Depending on my kids practice schedule, my schedule, etc. doing something like a protein shake and apple between 3 and 4, dinner after practices, so usually around 7:30, then a pre-bed snack works best. However, I would break the pattern in certain situations - ie team lunch at work, I would eat with the team, and just try to cut off earlier in the evening, or if we had family plans and were doing breakfast or lunch as a family, I would eat with them as well. I am not prepping for a bodybuilding show, etc., so I wasn't going to let it affect my social activity.

I know there are some studies that show benefits of fasting, but just as many that show that those benefits may be minimal or non-existent, especially if one;s goal is muscle gain or prevention of muscle loss (protein synthesis, etc.). For weight loss, being in a caloric deficit is key. I just find that IF works well for me from a convenience standpoint. Lots of water throughout the day (I usually have at least a gallon while at work, then at least another half gallon between the gym, water with meals, etc.), and mush easier to control calories. My restricting eating to a smaller window, I'm able to have a much larger, filling meal at night.

I will also admit that I am not full keto, and, much like with IF, there are just as many studies that show the reputed benefits for the a generally healthy person are minimal or non-existent.

For me personally, I try to hit minimum protein amounts, minimum fat amounts, then fill in remaining calories with veggies, healthy carbs for energy, and if there is room, extra protein/fat as needed. Most days I am pretty low carb just cause I like proteins and fats more, but on days where I have a game (such as tonight), I have my "carb up" day to increase energy stores. It may be placebo, but it works for me - so for example today I have a game at 6:15 - I'll likely have a protein shake and apple around 2pm, a small bowl of shredded wheat around 4, then probably a small protein shake and a PB&J with a banana around 5:15. For me, it's not an overload of calories, I don't feel bloated at my games, but I have more than enough energy to get through the game. I've found that without those extra carbs, I got worn out a lot quicker during the games.

This got me from being 300 pounds in April of last year to about 240 by November. I've intentionally tried to maintain this weight for the last few months and have bounced between 240 and 250 since November, and this with a major reduction in gym time due to the busy time for my kids practice schedules leaving less "me" time. Fortunately that clears up a bit at the end of the month, at which time I will push myself back into a reduced calorie diet and up the gym time, with a goal of getting in the 220-225 range by end of May (a much slower rate of loss than last year). 

 
acarey50 said:
When I do IF, which is most of the time, I do a similar protocol most of the time and did it almost all of last year where I lost almost 60 pounds. Most days I would not eat until closer to 4pm, and I would be done eating by about 10pm, so more of a 18/6 daily protocol. For my schedule it works very well, as I am usually at work by 6:30am and off around 3. Depending on my kids practice schedule, my schedule, etc. doing something like a protein shake and apple between 3 and 4, dinner after practices, so usually around 7:30, then a pre-bed snack works best. However, I would break the pattern in certain situations - ie team lunch at work, I would eat with the team, and just try to cut off earlier in the evening, or if we had family plans and were doing breakfast or lunch as a family, I would eat with them as well. I am not prepping for a bodybuilding show, etc., so I wasn't going to let it affect my social activity.

I know there are some studies that show benefits of fasting, but just as many that show that those benefits may be minimal or non-existent, especially if one;s goal is muscle gain or prevention of muscle loss (protein synthesis, etc.). For weight loss, being in a caloric deficit is key. I just find that IF works well for me from a convenience standpoint. Lots of water throughout the day (I usually have at least a gallon while at work, then at least another half gallon between the gym, water with meals, etc.), and mush easier to control calories. My restricting eating to a smaller window, I'm able to have a much larger, filling meal at night.

I will also admit that I am not full keto, and, much like with IF, there are just as many studies that show the reputed benefits for the a generally healthy person are minimal or non-existent.

For me personally, I try to hit minimum protein amounts, minimum fat amounts, then fill in remaining calories with veggies, healthy carbs for energy, and if there is room, extra protein/fat as needed. Most days I am pretty low carb just cause I like proteins and fats more, but on days where I have a game (such as tonight), I have my "carb up" day to increase energy stores. It may be placebo, but it works for me - so for example today I have a game at 6:15 - I'll likely have a protein shake and apple around 2pm, a small bowl of shredded wheat around 4, then probably a small protein shake and a PB&J with a banana around 5:15. For me, it's not an overload of calories, I don't feel bloated at my games, but I have more than enough energy to get through the game. I've found that without those extra carbs, I got worn out a lot quicker during the games.

This got me from being 300 pounds in April of last year to about 240 by November. I've intentionally tried to maintain this weight for the last few months and have bounced between 240 and 250 since November, and this with a major reduction in gym time due to the busy time for my kids practice schedules leaving less "me" time. Fortunately that clears up a bit at the end of the month, at which time I will push myself back into a reduced calorie diet and up the gym time, with a goal of getting in the 220-225 range by end of May (a much slower rate of loss than last year). 
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This is great.  Similar to what I've started. Now on Day 9.    I have a hard time drinking that much water. Really have no desire for it after I have my first 16 oz glass in the morning.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
This is great.  Similar to what I've started. Now on Day 9.    I have a hard time drinking that much water. Really have no desire for it after I have my first 16 oz glass in the morning.
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Drink when thirsty. No need to drink as much as I am (no real harm either).. I just find that having water throughout the day helps keep me feeling fuller.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Are you doing that all week?  If yes, how long have you done it?
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Yes I do this Monday through Friday on work days. My work routine keeps me busy until 1:30. Weekends I stay Ket I  just eat a bit more as I tend to graze....not out of hunger more about boredom. I have been doing this for part of December and most of Jan/Feb.

 
Now I want to fast for 8 days and see if I lose any weight. 

Do you count sleep in your fasting hours?

 
pack100 said:
Do you log your food anywhere Acer? I would love to see what you are eating. How many calories are you getting in? Enough fat (9kcal of energy per gram) Are you getting enough salt in your diet? Just because the scale is not losing does not mean you are not. Measure yourself. Try on some smaller clothes. I will go a couple weeks and lose one pound. Then I suddenly will lose 4 solid pounds after the "whoosh". Plus my weight fluxuates a ton. I was 204 on Friday, Monday morning weigh in 209.   
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I agree with this BTW.  There's something going on with your food - it's almost impossible to have such disappointing results, especially this early on. 

Keep a food log this week and post it here IMO

 
This is what I ate yesterday and so far today

Breakfast both days- scambled egg with cheese and pepperoni in it. (3 slices)

Lunch both days- tortiallla wrap with 2 slices ham, 3 slices salami and 7 pepperonis. 2 slices provolone cheese. 

Dinner last night- salad with italian dressing, 2 chicken legs and cauliflower fried rice my wife made. 

Snack in the day- parmchips and pork rinds. 

Only drink water and seltzer. 

 
AcerFC said:
This is what I ate yesterday and so far today

Breakfast both days- scambled egg with cheese and pepperoni in it. (3 slices)

Lunch both days- tortiallla wrap with 2 slices ham, 3 slices salami and 7 pepperonis. 2 slices provolone cheese. 

Dinner last night- salad with italian dressing, 2 chicken legs and cauliflower fried rice my wife made. 

Snack in the day- parmchips and pork rinds. 

Only drink water and seltzer. 
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Check the pepperoni and salami. Make sure there are no hidden sugars. The salami at our deli has Dextrose in it as a preservative. Turns out that was kicking me out of Ketosis. Most Luncheon meat can be tricky. Same with Jerky

Tortilla Wrap, Italian dressing  I am assuming low carb.

Early on I went tight Keto. Meat, veggie and Cheese. I stayed away from replacement carbs....Keto cookies, almond flour, fathead pizza, tortilla wraps until I no longer had any cravings at all.

Instead of seltzer water try some mineral water, Same kind of fizz but you are getting in those minerals lost in your urine.

Are you peeing more than normal? I piss like I am 20 again when in Ketosis, Do you use ketostix, Is your Breath Bad...Metallic

 
AcerFC said:
Now I want to fast for 8 days and see if I lose any weight. 

Do you count sleep in your fasting hours?
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:lol:

Yes, sleep counts.

For me when I was fasting more I had breakfast on Sunday then nothing until lunch/dinner on Tuesday. It helped so much in the beginning. When Wednesday came I was never really hungry and when I did eat it was smaller portions.

 
AcerFC said:
And a handful of cashews
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Cashews are the devil, My wife has to hide them or I eat the whole (COSTCO) container and it starts with just a handful. 8 net carbs in an ounce, 2 handfuls and you are close to your 20 carbs for the day

 
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pack100 said:
Check the pepperoni and salami. Make sure there are no hidden sugars. The salami at our deli has Dextrose in it as a preservative. Turns out that was kicking me out of Ketosis. Most Luncheon meat can be tricky. Same with Jerky

Tortilla Wrap, Italian dressing  I am assuming low carb.

Early on I went tight Keto. Meat, veggie and Cheese. I stayed away from replacement carbs....Keto cookies, almond flour, fathead pizza, tortilla wraps until I no longer had any cravings at all.

Instead of seltzer water try some mineral water, Same kind of fizz but you are getting in those minerals lost in your urine.

Are you peeing more than normal? I piss like I am 20 again when in Ketosis, Do you use ketostix, Is your Breath Bad...Metallic
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Yes. I use ketostix and have metallic breath. Says I'm in ketosis

 
pack100 said:
Cashews are the devil, My wife has to hide them or I eat the whole (COSTCO) container and it starts with just a handful. 8 net carbs in an ounce, 2 handfuls at you are at your close to your 20 for the day
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I know. But I have the one handful and that was it. 

 
It really shouldn't be that hard though. Keto, eat meat, cheese and nuts. But not those meats and not those nuts. 

Frustrating. Not gaining weight though, so there is that

 
AcerFC said:
Yes. I use ketostix and have metallic breath. Says I'm in ketosis
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I am not sure of your stats and how close to goal you are but

That is awesome! Then you are all good keep eating the pepperoni/salami if you are in Ketosis!

Do not worry about the scale.....as you said you are not gaining

Take body measurements

Stay within your calories

Salt everything

Drink Water

Magnesium....SPINACH

Nothing is easy (except gaining weight...I am a pro)

and KCKO

 
Someone explain this fasting thing to me

I have not eaten since 5:30pm last night. So about 14 hours. What now? How long do I go? When I decide to eat, am I limited to a certain amount of calories? Do I stop eating at 5:30 again and start over the next day. Do this every day for how long?

TIA, Will answer yours

 
AcerFC said:
Someone explain this fasting thing to me

I have not eaten since 5:30pm last night. So about 14 hours. What now? How long do I go? When I decide to eat, am I limited to a certain amount of calories? Do I stop eating at 5:30 again and start over the next day. Do this every day for how long?

TIA, Will answer yours
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Not the expert here, so I probably shouldn't answer...but...I believe you are talking about the intermitent fasting (IF), and the typical IF Keto schedule I've seen is 8-16, so 8 hours of an eating window and 16 hours of fasting.  When I was doing hard core keto, I pretty much fell into this by default as I didn't eat breakfast (coffee only).  So only eating lunch and dinner, even with an evening snack, and I was getting all of my calories in an 8 hour window.  The pounds melted off.  Can't answer the science but in personal experience it worked for me.

I did that during the week, but didn't worry about it so much on the weekend, so I was on a 5 days on, 2 days off schedule.

 
AcerFC said:
Someone explain this fasting thing to me

I have not eaten since 5:30pm last night. So about 14 hours. What now? How long do I go? When I decide to eat, am I limited to a certain amount of calories? Do I stop eating at 5:30 again and start over the next day. Do this every day for how long?

TIA, Will answer yours
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You should be fine until lunch, if not have a small snack but try to skip that snack tomorrow. You're not limited on calories on your next meal, heck you'll probably not even eat everything you think you might. Yes, if 5:30 is a good stopping point for eating for you then make that your cutoff at least 5 days a week. 

looks like your routine is starting to fall into place :hifive:  

 
My head has gotten so fat that when I wear my glasses, they leave a crease now.  And my fat cheek keeps hitting the mute button while I am talking on my iphone.  

Good lord, I need to do like a 30 day fast.  Just go on he survivor dead. 

 
My wife went onto some site and baked me keto peanut butter cookies and made some chocolate macadamia nut thing for Valentine's day tonight. She even figured out that the cookies had 4 carbs each and the chocolate was basically 1 carb for 3-4 pieces. 

I had to have 2 cookies and a chocolate piece. I'll be out of ketosis tomorrow won't I. 

 
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