Kicking kickers to the curb (1 Viewer)

[EFD]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.

So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.

What's the case for keeping kickers?

 

[Dez]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.What's the case for keeping kickers?

What's the point of any position then ?I don't agree with you at all.

 

[Zow]

Akers is probably a top 5 talent for kickers so it makes sense he is 1. Furthermore, since matchups are usually indicative of how well a kicker will do, it rewards the more thoughtful owners.

 

[Cenobite]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.What's the case for keeping kickers?

People like to have guys playing - regardless of position. It's the addiction of watching a game because your player is in it. I too think kickers should not be a factor in ff. Most everyone waits until the last rounds to draft them. It is the luck of the draw. I, for one, always try to curb the luck element in ff as much as possible. We had a vote in my league and the overwhelming majority wanted kickers to factor in the scoring.

 

[PR Sparty]

we dropped kickers 2 years ago and NEVER looked back.

 

[Jersey35]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.

So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.

What's the case for keeping kickers?

What's the point of any position then ?I don't agree with you at all.

The point of any position is to draft players that are "good" who, with a reasonable level of predictability, will score points commensurate with their level of talent (and to a lesser extent, their situation).To a greater degree than any other player, the kicker's output is dictated by the successes and, more likely, failures of the other players. This is reflected in the fact that there is so much turnover at the top level of the position year-to-year. I'd be willing to bet that the preseason top 12-24 for QB, WR, RB positions compare very favorably with end-of-year top 12-24's for population, whereas when the same evaluation is done for kicker rankings, I'll bet the rankings are all over the board.

Additionally, most fantasy teams wait until the last few rounds or even after the draft to pick up a kicker. Why? Because replacement level production is essentially available on the WW for a kicker on your roster. When a position has so little value that you can plan to pick up a guy on the WW that has an expected output of the same level as the guy on your roster, something is inherently wrong.

I've looked at numerous ways to score kickers to attempt to lend some value, differentiation, and predictability to the position - but to date, I've found no truly accurate scoring system for kickers that rewards their talent vs the luck of in-game opportunity.

I think we're eliminating them from my league this offseason.

 

[cobalt_27]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.

So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.

What's the case for keeping kickers?

What's the point of any position then ?I don't agree with you at all.

The point of any position is to draft players that are "good" who, with a reasonable level of predictability, will score points commensurate with their level of talent (and to a lesser extent, their situation).To a greater degree than any other player, the kicker's output is dictated by the successes and, more likely, failures of the other players. This is reflected in the fact that there is so much turnover at the top level of the position year-to-year. I'd be willing to bet that the preseason top 12-24 for QB, WR, RB positions compare very favorably with end-of-year top 12-24's when the same evaluation is done for kicker rankings.

Additionally, most fantasy teams wait until the last few rounds or even after the draft to pick up a kicker. Why? Because replacement level production is essentially available on the WW for a kicker on your roster. When a position has so little value that you can plan to pick up a guy on the WW that has an expected output of the same level as the guy on your roster, something is inherently wrong.

I've looked at numerous ways to score kickers to attempt to lend some value, differentiation, and predictability to the position - but to date, I've found no truly accurate scoring system for kickers that rewards their talent vs the luck of in-game opportunity.

I think we're eliminating them from my league this offseason.

When you combine the fact that (a) they are low scoring by comparison to other positions in most leagues, (b) the variability in scoring across the top-20 kickers is less than compared to other positions in most leagues, and (c.) they are less predictable in terms of scoring, save for a very select handful of kickers...the bottom line is that they are more of a headache than it's worth.

 

[Jedi Knight]

In our league, we use a "Special Teams" position instead of the kicker. We award points for:

Field Goals

PAT's

Punting Yardage

Punts inside the 20

Kickoff return yardage

Punt return yardage

Kick/punt return for TD

It was a big hit with the league and we've never missed the individual kickers.

 

[SuperGreen]

dumb

like the person above said, why bother with any position

i was a master at streaming kickers all year, and it helped win me a title

learn2kicker kthx

 

[gigantor]

TE are rather useless too

 

[Gators]

Because they are part of the football team. It's the same reason why leagues do IDP. Owners realize there is great talent on both sides of the field. Why not enjoy P. Willis every Sunday as he's one of the top players in the NFL.

 

[Summer Wheat]

Why use PPR??? Worse than kickers.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don't think I had any one kicker on my team for more than a few weeks at a time. Probably started about 6 different ones throughout the season. Same with a lot of my league, dropping and picking up different kickers every couple of games or so. It wouldn't bother me if our league decided to drop the position.

 

[Jedi Knight]

It's all about player value. If you can make your scoring system work to where the top RB=Top WR=Top TE=Top DL...etc, then you can have as many positions as you want. Otherwise, it's all about who can get the best two running backs.

Yeah, I don't always agree with PPR, but it's a tool to get a WR equitable value with RB's. IDPs are great as long as they score on the same level as RB's or WR's.

 

[Jersey35]

dumb

like the person above said, why bother with any position

i was a master at streaming kickers all year, and it helped win me a title

learn2kicker kthx

But why didn't you just draft a good one and save yourself the trouble of all those WW moves?

 

[Kenny Powers]

Akers is probably a top 5 talent for kickers so it makes sense he is 1. Furthermore, since matchups are usually indicative of how well a kicker will do, it rewards the more thoughtful owners.

I dont agree with that much..No matter how many FGs a team may be giving up, I think its a total wildcard game to game due to how good of an offense theyre going against, TO's, etc.All the K's in the top 10 in my league had between 39-49 XP's except 3 - Carpenter, Brown, and Folk who was closer with 32. Carpenter led the lead in 40+ yd FGs whereas Brown was 2nd in 20-30yd FG only to Folk. Folk was probably on some radars preseason because the Jets were supposed to be good on O. Whether you draft a K in the last round or a few earlier, none of this is predicatble whatsoever.

I wouldnt say banish K's because like any position there is still luck involved, but a below average K can have a 20pt week and you could potentially be starting him, but a below average RB, WR, TE that you might start is 95% of the time never going to put up 20+pts

 

[Mario Kart]

we dropped kickers 2 years ago and NEVER looked back.

My league dropped the RB three years ago due to the increasing number of teams that use RBBC. Not one complaint since than either.

 

[Game Time]

we do .1 points per yard for the kicker... All FG's under 30 yards are 3 points and each yard after 30 is .1 points... SO a 45 yarder is 4.5 points.... Makes them a bit more valuable.... Kickers are part of teh game and should be part of FF......

 

[The Great Snook]

Whenever I see a thread like this (let's get rid of kickers, TE, Def, PPR, etc.) all I can think of is that the original poster is someone without a lot of creativity and/or flexibility. Seriously, do you want a two round draft where you can go RB RB and then call it quits? My favorite league is QB, RB, WR, TE, 3 Flex, K, D. What makes it special is that the flex can be either an RB, WR, or TE. There are some teams that design their teams around 4 RBs and we had one team that ran a 3 TE offense (which dominated with Gates, Gonzo, and Gronkowski). I despise leagues that whoever has the best two RBs wins. They are boring. For disclosure purposes I won my money league this year running a 4 WR offense

 

[lazyike]

we dropped kickers 2 years ago and NEVER looked back.

My league dropped the RB three years ago due to the increasing number of teams that use RBBC. Not one complaint since than either.

Our league dropped WR-so tired of players like DJax going off one week with what looks to be a poor matchup and then following it up like Tuesday night where he has a good looking matchup against the Vikes and does very little. Actually I like Kickers and get fired up when I see my K getting a FG opportunity.

 

[fsufan]

TE are rather useless too

i hate TEs. one league we made them part of the WR position

 

[ChromeWeasel]

I am thinking about proposing we drop kickers from the starting lineups for the 2011 season. To me there's just too much randomness associated with kickers in fantasyland. Basically it just comes down to whether his team have FG opportunities or will they be scoring TDs? I realize that certain teams seem to give up more FG opportunities than others (AZ this year), but that in itself seems pretty random. The top kicker in my league (Akers) scored 136 pts while the #10 kicker (Cundiff) scored 110 - a difference of less than 2pts per week.

So what's the point of having a kicker, then? They have week-to-week variances that are not predictable, and seemingly have little to do with the talent of the actual kicker.

What's the case for keeping kickers?

Place Kickers are almost always the top scoring position in the NFL. That alone makes their case. You don't run a fantasy representation of an NFL team and eliminate the top scoring option.Do a quick search for player scoring and you'll see that the top 17 players today in the NFL are kickers. At #18 you finally get to Arian Foster. See link below.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tab...;seasonType=REG

There's randomness at every position. That's fantasy football. Good kickers score more over time and have ups and downs just like everyone else. Run your league whatever way you want, and eliminate kickers if you like. But dont get all preachy about how kickers arent a valid position and should be eliminated in general. That's an indefensible statement with no baring on reality. If anything we don't give the fantasy kicking position enough representation for how important they are in real life.

 

[NYRAGE]

dumblike the person above said, why bother with any positioni was a master at streaming kickers all year, and it helped win me a titlelearn2kicker kthx

Did you ever compare how many more points you got out of streaming versus keeping a good kicker? I never went back and compared, but i streamed kickers up for most of the year and I know that I did better than the top kickers. How much, I'm not sure, but it seemed like 3-4 pts almost every week, sometimes more.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

So Mike Herman doesn't go hungry.

 

[EFD]

I'm not asking about IDP playes, or TE's, or using PPR. I'm asking about using kickers.

Whenever I see a thread like this (let's get rid of kickers, TE, Def, PPR, etc.) all I can think of is that the original poster is someone without a lot of creativity and/or flexibility. Seriously, do you want a two round draft where you can go RB RB and then call it quits? My favorite league is QB, RB, WR, TE, 3 Flex, K, D. What makes it special is that the flex can be either an RB, WR, or TE. There are some teams that design their teams around 4 RBs and we had one team that ran a 3 TE offense (which dominated with Gates, Gonzo, and Gronkowski). I despise leagues that whoever has the best two RBs wins. They are boring. For disclosure purposes I won my money league this year running a 4 WR offense

What I see in this response is a poster that is missing the point. I have not advocated a draft where you only select two RB, nor have I chimed in on any position other than kicker. If you had read my original post at all you'd see I am discussing kickers because kickers, unlike RB, WR, TE or any other position, are basically completely random. Unlike RB. Unlike WR. Unlike QB.Some of you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

Place Kickers are almost always the top scoring position in the NFL. That alone makes their case. You don't run a fantasy representation of an NFL team and eliminate the top scoring option.

Do a quick search for player scoring and you'll see that the top 17 players today in the NFL are kickers. At #18 you finally get to Arian Foster. See link below.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tab...;seasonType=REG

There's randomness at every position. That's fantasy football. Good kickers score more over time and have ups and downs just like everyone else. Run your league whatever way you want, and eliminate kickers if you like. But dont get all preachy about how kickers arent a valid position and should be eliminated in general. That's an indefensible statement with no baring on reality. If anything we don't give the fantasy kicking position enough representation for how important they are in real life.

This may be a relevant point if our fantasy football leagues followed suit and only counted TDs, FGs & extra points. But they don't.And if kickers are so important, why are they among the lowest paid by position? And why are there only a handful of kickers drafted in the NFL draft each year (and basically not until after the 5th round)? I mean, they're the highest scoring players in the NFL!!!

Look, the point is that there's little difference between the top kicker and the #12 kicker. Less than 2pts per week on average. So then why bother? There's no real difference overall, and all you're left with is the weekly variance that exists in large part due to the randomness of how the overall team does, which is completely beyond the kickers control.

I just looked at my particular league and noticed that each and every week at least five of the top ten scoring kickers were free agents in their respective weeks. Go look at your league and tell me that's not the same. Think that's the same deal with the top ten QBs? Top 30 WRs or RBs??

If half of the top ten players are free agents in each and every week, why are we even bothering? My league is full of sharks, and we can't seem to figure the kicker position out. What's the point, then?

 

[The Great Snook]

What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

And here is where I (and I think a lot of people) disagree with you. There is great debate as to how much of fantasy football is luck and how much is skill. Is there any skill at picking a defense/special team or is that another position that is completely random? Even in the skill positions, once you get outside the top tier players they don't consistantly put up points. If they did I think we would have seen more teams with the first pick win this year. From what I have seen many people with the first three picks ended up with some combination of Chris Johnson, Brady, and Roddy White. All three players basically sucked in week 16 and cost a lot of teams with the first pick the championship this year. Was that skill or was it random?Now what you are propsing would just change the strategy involved and if you can find nine or eleven like minded people with the same opinion, then God Bless you and form a new league with your own set of rules. However, you should expect to meet resistance if you are trying to start a revolution.Vive Le Kicker

 

[ChromeWeasel]

I'm not asking about IDP playes, or TE's, or using PPR. I'm asking about using kickers.

Whenever I see a thread like this (let's get rid of kickers, TE, Def, PPR, etc.) all I can think of is that the original poster is someone without a lot of creativity and/or flexibility. Seriously, do you want a two round draft where you can go RB RB and then call it quits? My favorite league is QB, RB, WR, TE, 3 Flex, K, D. What makes it special is that the flex can be either an RB, WR, or TE. There are some teams that design their teams around 4 RBs and we had one team that ran a 3 TE offense (which dominated with Gates, Gonzo, and Gronkowski). I despise leagues that whoever has the best two RBs wins. They are boring. For disclosure purposes I won my money league this year running a 4 WR offense

What I see in this response is a poster that is missing the point. I have not advocated a draft where you only select two RB, nor have I chimed in on any position other than kicker. If you had read my original post at all you'd see I am discussing kickers because kickers, unlike RB, WR, TE or any other position, are basically completely random. Unlike RB. Unlike WR. Unlike QB.Some of you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

Place Kickers are almost always the top scoring position in the NFL. That alone makes their case. You don't run a fantasy representation of an NFL team and eliminate the top scoring option.

Do a quick search for player scoring and you'll see that the top 17 players today in the NFL are kickers. At #18 you finally get to Arian Foster. See link below.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tab...;seasonType=REG

There's randomness at every position. That's fantasy football. Good kickers score more over time and have ups and downs just like everyone else. Run your league whatever way you want, and eliminate kickers if you like. But dont get all preachy about how kickers arent a valid position and should be eliminated in general. That's an indefensible statement with no baring on reality. If anything we don't give the fantasy kicking position enough representation for how important they are in real life.

This may be a relevant point if our fantasy football leagues followed suit and only counted TDs, FGs & extra points. But they don't.And if kickers are so important, why are they among the lowest paid by position? And why are there only a handful of kickers drafted in the NFL draft each year (and basically not until after the 5th round)? I mean, they're the highest scoring players in the NFL!!!

Look, the point is that there's little difference between the top kicker and the #12 kicker. Less than 2pts per week on average. So then why bother? There's no real difference overall, and all you're left with is the weekly variance that exists in large part due to the randomness of how the overall team does, which is completely beyond the kickers control.

I just looked at my particular league and noticed that each and every week at least five of the top ten scoring kickers were free agents in their respective weeks. Go look at your league and tell me that's not the same. Think that's the same deal with the top ten QBs? Top 30 WRs or RBs??

If half of the top ten players are free agents in each and every week, why are we even bothering? My league is full of sharks, and we can't seem to figure the kicker position out. What's the point, then?

Kickers salaries are relatively low because all they have to do is score a lot of points. Not a lot else is asked from them. They dont deal with debilitating injuries and they arent depended on to lead the team. They just score points, and they do it more often than any other position on the team. That doesnt mean that the place kicker isnt a crucial position. Kickers win and lose games every year. A good place kicker solidifies the special teams play of every team. And that's a huge advantage.It's funny that you'd admit that your league allows half of the top 10 kickers to be free agents every week. That's not a comment about how bad kickers are as a position. That just goes to show that your league is probably filled with knuckleheads. In a competitive league the top scoring players at ANY position should be owned. If you're kicker isnt a top scorer you should replace him with one who is. That goes for every owner whos trying to win. You make it sound like your league is full of lazy owners who dont care about giving away points every week. I dont know why you'd admit that as evidence for your case. It's a good argument for your own league I suppose. You could say "Look at this guys, no one cares about kicker anyway, lets get rid of em!" But to show us all the evidence that your league doesnt care enough to add/drop the best kickers every few weeks does not lend you any credibility. It does exactly the opposite.

 

[EFD]

What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

And here is where I (and I think a lot of people) disagree with you. There is great debate as to how much of fantasy football is luck and how much is skill. Is there any skill at picking a defense/special team or is that another position that is completely random? Even in the skill positions, once you get outside the top tier players they don't consistantly put up points. If they did I think we would have seen more teams with the first pick win this year. From what I have seen many people with the first three picks ended up with some combination of Chris Johnson, Brady, and Roddy White. All three players basically sucked in week 16 and cost a lot of teams with the first pick the championship this year. Was that skill or was it random?Now what you are propsing would just change the strategy involved and if you can find nine or eleven like minded people with the same opinion, then God Bless you and form a new league with your own set of rules. However, you should expect to meet resistance if you are trying to start a revolution.Vive Le Kicker

Bringing other positions into the discussion is pointless. Kicker is unlike any other position (except team defense, perhaps).QB - difference between #1 & #12 is 115 pts, for a total of over 7pts per weekRB - difference betwee #1 & #24 is 266 pts, for a total of over 16 pts per weekWR - difference between #1 & #24 is 127 pts, for a total of about 8 pts per weekK - difference between #1 & #12 is 28 pts, for a total of 1.75 pts per weekOne of those things is not like the other. For the non-kickers, you can assume that research and knowledge will help you differentiate from your competition. For kickers, I'm not seeing how research and knowledge are going to do squat for you.I understand I'm not going to change the world, and I'm not interested in that anyways. I'm looking for someone to make the case that kickers should be a part of the fantasy football landscape. So far all I've gotten is "other positions have some level of randomness too so why not kickers". Or "kickers are a part of the real game so they should be part of the fake game, too".If that's all that's out there then I remain unconvinced.

 

[EFD]

Kickers salaries are relatively low because all they have to do is score a lot of points. Not a lot else is asked from them. They dont deal with debilitating injuries and they arent depended on to lead the team. They just score points, and they do it more often than any other position on the team. That doesnt mean that the place kicker isnt a crucial position. Kickers win and lose games every year. A good place kicker solidifies the special teams play of every team. And that's a huge advantage.It's funny that you'd admit that your league allows half of the top 10 kickers to be free agents every week. That's not a comment about how bad kickers are as a position. That just goes to show that your league is probably filled with knuckleheads. In a competitive league the top scoring players at ANY position should be owned. If you're kicker isnt a top scorer you should replace him with one who is. That goes for every owner whos trying to win. You make it sound like your league is full of lazy owners who dont care about giving away points every week. I dont know why you'd admit that as evidence for your case. It's a good argument for your own league I suppose. You could say "Look at this guys, no one cares about kicker anyway, lets get rid of em!" But to show us all the evidence that your league doesnt care enough to add/drop the best kickers every few weeks does not lend you any credibility. It does exactly the opposite.

Kickers salaries are relatively low because kickers are a dime a dozen and are basically interchangeable. The fact that kickers score points does not make them some valuable commodity that is impossible to find.Here's the reality about kickers:1. They are so not valuable that they tend to not even get drafted.2. They are so not valuable that they are among the lowest paid positions in the entire league.3. They are so not valuable that they are never in the MVP discussion and there is only ONE in the Hall of Fame.But...but...but - they're the highest scorers in the whole league!!1!As for the rest of your post, are you seriously telling me that of the top ten kickers in any particular week of this season that at least four, or five, were not free agents? I guarantee you that at least four kickers in the top 12 for last week were not signed in your league, assuming we're talking about a 12 team league. Guarantee. While we're talking about last week, tell me how it is you knew that David Rayner from Detroit was going to outproduce David Akers by 6X this week. Was that because you're not lazy, like the people in my league that's been running with the same owners for the last 19 years are?

 

[pecorino]

i've never been a fan of kickers in fantasy. but i think my aversion to them would be tempered if the scoring made better sense. for instance, a 19-yard FG earns three fantasy points but it is ostensibly the same kicking action as a PAT. the points should be tiered: 1 point for a FG and 1 extra point every ten yards over 30. also, kickers should earn negative points for missing PATs and also short field goals. i'd give them a pass on misses for long (+40 yard) FG attempts.

 

[Dr. Awesome]

It sounds like you need to either remove kickers or tweak their scoring. Next year we're going to give kickers a possible 5 points per kick but also a possible -5 points per kick (more points for making a longer fg, more lost points for missing a short fg). It should make it interesting.

Another option is to go with 2 kickers.

 

[lazyike]

dumb

like the person above said, why bother with any position

i was a master at streaming kickers all year, and it helped win me a title

learn2kicker kthx

But why didn't you just draft a good one and save yourself the trouble of all those WW moves?

In my local league I've won the championship 3 of the past 4 years. We have to carry 2 kickers and I draft my kickers in the last couple rounds. I was able to grab Kaeding when he was injured and had Cundiff for a while and later dropped him to grab Barth. Just as good of production of those who wasted picks in the 9-13 rounds to get the top kickers. I think grabbing kickers late is one of several draft strategies to winning championships.

 

[greenline]

I hate all of the positions. You never know which guy is going to do the best so in our league, we play our entire team as UTIL. It's nice not having to make any decisions.

 

[stbugs]

What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

And here is where I (and I think a lot of people) disagree with you. There is great debate as to how much of fantasy football is luck and how much is skill. Is there any skill at picking a defense/special team or is that another position that is completely random? Even in the skill positions, once you get outside the top tier players they don't consistantly put up points. If they did I think we would have seen more teams with the first pick win this year. From what I have seen many people with the first three picks ended up with some combination of Chris Johnson, Brady, and Roddy White. All three players basically sucked in week 16 and cost a lot of teams with the first pick the championship this year. Was that skill or was it random?Now what you are propsing would just change the strategy involved and if you can find nine or eleven like minded people with the same opinion, then God Bless you and form a new league with your own set of rules. However, you should expect to meet resistance if you are trying to start a revolution.Vive Le Kicker

Bringing other positions into the discussion is pointless. Kicker is unlike any other position (except team defense, perhaps).QB - difference between #1 & #12 is 115 pts, for a total of over 7pts per weekRB - difference betwee #1 & #24 is 266 pts, for a total of over 16 pts per weekWR - difference between #1 & #24 is 127 pts, for a total of about 8 pts per weekK - difference between #1 & #12 is 28 pts, for a total of 1.75 pts per weekOne of those things is not like the other. For the non-kickers, you can assume that research and knowledge will help you differentiate from your competition. For kickers, I'm not seeing how research and knowledge are going to do squat for you.I understand I'm not going to change the world, and I'm not interested in that anyways. I'm looking for someone to make the case that kickers should be a part of the fantasy football landscape. So far all I've gotten is "other positions have some level of randomness too so why not kickers". Or "kickers are a part of the real game so they should be part of the fake game, too".If that's all that's out there then I remain unconvinced.

Your comparisons are flawed. Comparing just the #1 positions make no sense. Often, like this year, there are super stars that do way better than others. Case in point, Arian Foster in my league outscored the #2 RB by 63 points and the #2 RB outscored the #12 RB by only 68 points. For Ks, the #1 K outscored the #2 K by 5 points and outscored the #12 K by 34 points. There is never an Arian Foster/2009 Chris Johnson/2007 Tom Brady/2007 Randy Moss of Ks. Their are awesome K years, but those guys rarely blow away the rest of the league like the top RB/WR/QB can do.

 

[daveR]

Why not? This is supposed to be for fun, no?

 

[Perfect Tommy]

What I am suggesting is that kicker points are random, and therefore unnecessary.

And here is where I (and I think a lot of people) disagree with you. There is great debate as to how much of fantasy football is luck and how much is skill. Is there any skill at picking a defense/special team or is that another position that is completely random? Even in the skill positions, once you get outside the top tier players they don't consistantly put up points. If they did I think we would have seen more teams with the first pick win this year. From what I have seen many people with the first three picks ended up with some combination of Chris Johnson, Brady, and Roddy White. All three players basically sucked in week 16 and cost a lot of teams with the first pick the championship this year. Was that skill or was it random?Now what you are propsing would just change the strategy involved and if you can find nine or eleven like minded people with the same opinion, then God Bless you and form a new league with your own set of rules. However, you should expect to meet resistance if you are trying to start a revolution.Vive Le Kicker

Bringing other positions into the discussion is pointless. Kicker is unlike any other position (except team defense, perhaps).QB - difference between #1 & #12 is 115 pts, for a total of over 7pts per weekRB - difference betwee #1 & #24 is 266 pts, for a total of over 16 pts per weekWR - difference between #1 & #24 is 127 pts, for a total of about 8 pts per weekK - difference between #1 & #12 is 28 pts, for a total of 1.75 pts per weekOne of those things is not like the other. For the non-kickers, you can assume that research and knowledge will help you differentiate from your competition. For kickers, I'm not seeing how research and knowledge are going to do squat for you.I understand I'm not going to change the world, and I'm not interested in that anyways. I'm looking for someone to make the case that kickers should be a part of the fantasy football landscape. So far all I've gotten is "other positions have some level of randomness too so why not kickers". Or "kickers are a part of the real game so they should be part of the fake game, too".If that's all that's out there then I remain unconvinced.

Your comparisons are flawed. Comparing just the #1 positions make no sense. Often, like this year, there are super stars that do way better than others. Case in point, Arian Foster in my league outscored the #2 RB by 63 points and the #2 RB outscored the #12 RB by only 68 points. For Ks, the #1 K outscored the #2 K by 5 points and outscored the #12 K by 34 points. There is never an Arian Foster/2009 Chris Johnson/2007 Tom Brady/2007 Randy Moss of Ks. Their are awesome K years, but those guys rarely blow away the rest of the league like the top RB/WR/QB can do.

Also, a difference of 1-2 points per week is nothing to scoff at. Sure, we expect first round picks to exceed lower round picks by more than that, but PKs aren't picked in the first round. A 5th round WR doesn't rate to average 2 points per game more than a 7th round WR. There are a lot of aspects to kickers that can be predicted and we would lose that if we eliminate kickers. Indoor or warm weather kickers are better. Better kickers are better. Stupid coaches are better (because they don't know when to go for it on 4th down). Good playoff matchups are important. Denver has a special advantage. To me it makes no sense at all to eliminate kickers. That would be eliminating one of the fun and interesting aspects of FF. Somehow there is a notion that when a kicker has a good game it was just luck, but when another position has a good game it is skill. Nothing could be further from the truth. All the positions have weekly scoring deviating heavily from their average or expected results. It is primarily the lack of scarcity that makes kickers of such little value, and that is hardly a reason to eliminate them.

 

[Jersey35]

dumb

like the person above said, why bother with any position

i was a master at streaming kickers all year, and it helped win me a title

learn2kicker kthx

But why didn't you just draft a good one and save yourself the trouble of all those WW moves?

In my local league I've won the championship 3 of the past 4 years. We have to carry 2 kickers and I draft my kickers in the last couple rounds. I was able to grab Kaeding when he was injured and had Cundiff for a while and later dropped him to grab Barth. Just as good of production of those who wasted picks in the 9-13 rounds to get the top kickers. I think grabbing kickers late is one of several draft strategies to winning championships.

So you're saying, why bother wasting anything but a late draft pick on a kicker when you can get as good a chance at starter kicker level points really late - or even on the waiver wire?