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Why Chris Boswell Is Ranked So Low... (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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I did this thread on why we were so far from the industry herd on CeeDee Lamb this week and folks seemed to like it. https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/why-ceedee-lamb-is-ranked-so-high.814922/#post-25142951

Another player we're way different than the industry this week (And one readers have been letting me know about!) is Chris Boswell. We have him ranked PK 18. Which is way lower than most sites.

But here's why.

Our @Adam Harstad explained in an X thread https://x.com/AdamHarstad/status/1859691991115891001

Apparently FBGs has been taking some heat for having Chris Boswell-- the #1 fantasy kicker so far-- as our 18th-ranked kicker this week. For my part, I had him rated as an "avoid" in this week's Rent-a-Kicker. So let me make the case.

1. There are two reasons Boswell currently ranks #1. First, he's converted 29 of his 30 attempts, the second-highest rate in the league behind only Jake Bates (who has attempted half as many field goals). League average is 85%, Boswell's career average is 88%. This will regress.

2. Second, 58% of Pittsburgh's scoring drives have been field goals rather than touchdowns, the highest mark in the NFL. League average is just 41.3%.Intuitively, it seems like some offenses might be predisposed to "stalling out in field goal range". Maybe this is predictive?

I investigated that in my Regression Alert column in Week 7 of 2020.At the time, my kicker model kept recommending Jason Myers, who ranked last in the league in scoring in large part because Seattle scored 23 touchdowns vs. just 2 FGs (an 8% FG rate!). https://www.footballguys.com/articl...week-07?article=2020-regression-alert-week-07

I predicted that this was a fluke and would regress.Over the rest of the season, Seattle scored 32 touchdowns against 21 field goals-- a 39.6% field goal rate that was basically bang-on league average-- and Jason Myers was the #3 kicker in fantasy. "Scoring mix" is not a thing.

Offenses control the *NUMBER* of scoring drives they get. But what percentage of those drives are touchdowns vs. field goals is largely just random. It's almost entirely noise. Boswell has had a super favorable mix so far, but that doesn't mean he'll get one going forward!

If Pittsburgh had the same number of scoring opportunities, but the ratio of FG attempts vs. touchdowns was around league average, and Boswell was converting at around league average, he'd have about 20% fewer points today-- about 86 instead of 107. That'd still rank 6th overall.

If every kicker was converting around league average for both marks, Boswell would rank 10th overall and 9th in PPG, instead. From a "fundamentals" standpoint, that's much more predictive of his value going forward.

And then this week he's playing a projected low-scoring game (Pittsburgh's Vegas-implied point total ranks 18th in the league this week), and he's kicking in one of the toughest stadiums. It's entirely unsurprising he's projected to do so poorly.

Will he? Who knows. Kickers are a crapshoot. Guys I rate as "avoid" have big games all the time, maybe Boswell is one of them this week. The category is more about identifying kickers with disproportionate downside risk, and Boswell certainly qualifies.

But I've posted my model results every week for years now. I have a long track record I can point to that says "over large samples, this process produces disproportionately favorable results".You can start Boswell if you want. But that's why the models are down on him.
 
We'll see tonight how we did.

Kickers are of course tough to predict so I hold these things pretty loosely. But I also think it's valuable to share some of the behind the scenes thoughts on why we do what we do.
 
Dumb kicker that is overhyped. Rank him wherever. I saw some vid (non-FB Guys) saying he has outscored guys like Kupp, Brown, etc. in FF. That's complete and utter BS.
 
We'll see tonight how we did.

Kickers are of course tough to predict so I hold these things pretty loosely. But I also think it's valuable to share some of the behind the scenes thoughts on why we do what we do.

Did you rank him highly last week? He outscored most of my team
 
Who cares?

I do. I have Boswell in 4 of my 6 leagues and as sad as this is to admit, he's been one of my better and most consistent fantasy player. Yes, that's strange to say about a silly kicker but my leagues reward long field goals and some even punish misses. So I care why FBG might rank the best fantasy kicker in football this year so low on a week that matters A LOT for teams hoping to make the playoffs. Every point counts.

I also hope this ranking is wrong. I need Boswell to keep it up. :shrug:
 
Bad weather game, Pitt with trouble scoring TDs in the RedZone and Boswell being one of the best kickers in the NFL the last 5 years (90% conversion rate) lead me to believe 18 is too low. We will see soon!
 
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Who cares?

I do. I have Boswell in 4 of my 6 leagues and as sad as this is to admit, he's been one of my better and most consistent fantasy player. Yes, that's strange to say about a silly kicker but my leagues reward long field goals and some even punish misses. So I care why FBG might rank the best fantasy kicker in football this year so low on a week that matters A LOT for teams hoping to make the playoffs. Every point counts.

I also hope this ranking is wrong. I need Boswell to keep it up. :shrug:

He has outscored Breece Hall and Achane on my team. Now I say it, that sounds ridiculous but it's true and i'm glad I have him, even if those with garbage unreliable options don't like kickers.
 
Who cares?

I know lots of people don't like kickers. But for a lot of leagues, kickers are part of the game and Boswell is on most rosters so people that are making lineup decisions with him have an interest I think.

And I could well be wrong but I think some people like to see the process on how we do things. But that may not be the case.
Thanks for the thread Joe.
 
It's not just this week. Adam has ranked him as "neutral" once this year. In all of the other weeks he's ranked him as "poor" or "avoid" . Whatever predictive model is being used is clearly wrong. As for "regression", how was it applicable in the first weeks of the season when there was nothing to regress from?
 
One of the old unwritten rules of winning in fantasy was never draft a Pittsburgh kicker because of swirling winds off the rivers and late season weather in Pittsburgh and the rest of the AFC North. Perhaps that ancient piece of wisdom clouds his crystal ball.
 
Happy to take the 8, couldn't see putting him on the bench after so many high scoring weeks including 24 last week
Probably should have sat him in favor of Koo(Bye) but still happy with 8, some kickers have been coming up woefully short and with weather becoming a bigger factor, there's going to be some big holes in the rosters this weekend, Boswell's 8 will hold the line for this week
 
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It's not just this week. Adam has ranked him as "neutral" once this year. In all of the other weeks he's ranked him as "poor" or "avoid" . Whatever predictive model is being used is clearly wrong. As for "regression", how was it applicable in the first weeks of the season when there was nothing to regress from?
Hey Mr. Palmer, big fan!

Rent-a-Kicker isn't the deepest feature I do; the feedback I've gotten from most readers is they don't want a ton of words on how the sausage is made, they just want to know who to add this week, so I'll sprinkle in some bits and pieces on the process here and there but mostly try to get straight to the results. I know a lot of people here may not care about kickers (and the ranking thereof) but I'd like to take this opportunity to do a bit of a deep dive on how the model works (and why it hasn't been a fan of Boswell so far this year). Apologies in advance for the Wall of Text, I'd advise everyone who doesn't care about kickers to just keep scrolling.

To start with, we should establish that kicker is significantly less predictable than the "main" fantasy positions. It's not just that there's higher variance, but that we demonstrably cannot predict the bulk of that variance in a meaningful way. To wit: in 2013, Chase Stuart charted season-ending VBD vs. draft order for every position from 2000-2012. The link to the graph is dead now, but he also included a chart. The first quarterback off the board outscored replacement level by an average of 84 points and the 12th outscored it by 20 points. At running back, the first back taken added 126 points and the 12th added 45.7. At wide receiver that was 107 vs. 45, at tight end that was 58 vs. 12. In all positions we see a pattern where the players drafted earlier tend to do better, on average, than the players drafted later.

At kicker, the first player taken added 8.1 points over replacement, while the 12th added 5.6 points over replacement. Not only were the first kickers barely outperforming the last kickers off the board, they were barely beating out replacement level. The fantasy industry was quite good at predicting which quarterbacks, running backs, receivers, and tight ends would have better seasons, but quite terrible at predicting the same for kickers.

Because kickers are so dependent on matchups, perhaps they're more predictable on a week-to-week basis? Yes! But only barely. FantasyPros used to grade rankings with the following process: when this person's rankings disagreed with another person's rankings, how often was this person closer to the actual outcome? In a world where everything was perfectly predictable, the best rankers should score 100%-- every time they disagree with someone about a ranking, they are right. In a world where performance was perfectly random, the best rankers should score 50%-- it's a coin flip whether they're right or wrong.

(Actually-- because of the nature of randomness in a tournament format like this, the best rankers should score noticeably more than 50%-- in the same way that if we had a giant coin-flipping tournament to see who could flip heads most often, the "winner" would almost certainly flip heads more than 50% of the time. Depending on the number of participants and the number of trials, something like 52% would be a minimum reasonable expectation and something like 55% wouldn't be that surprising. Hell, with a large enough pool of participants and a small enough number of flips you'd see the winner consistently walking away with 100% heads.)

In 2016, I checked the top three rankers in five-year accuracy under that methodology for each position (covering the 2011-2015 seasons). At quarterback, the average score of the Top 3 rankers was 61.1%. At running back, 62.9%. At wide receiver, 59.7%. At tight end, 62.2%. This really underscores how much randomness is inherent in fantasy football-- when the most accurate rankers in fantasy disagree with a second random analyst about a player, it's about a 60/40 shot whether they're right or not. (Likely lower, since even over a 5-year sample, selection bias weighs heavily here; remember the hypothetical "winner of a coinflip tournament flips 52% heads" example. I don't think it's unwarranted to mentally reduce all of these values by about 2%.)

The average of the top three scores at D/ST was 57.7%-- substantially lower than the skill positions. At kicker, this fell even further to 55.9%! 55.9% is still above what we'd expect from hypothetical coin-flipping tournament winners, indicating there is *some* predictive signal there... but it's only marginally higher than what we'd expect from our hypothetical coin flips, suggesting even the very best and most accurate projectors are still only barely outperforming chance.

I'm not saying this to make excuses or anything-- we are paid to do a job (project kickers), and the fact that that job is hard does not excuse us from doing it to the best of our abilities. I'm just trying to establish the background context-- this is a task where if you're wrong 45% of the time, you're one of the very best in the industry.

With that said, as I mentioned, there *are* things that are predictive of kicker performance. The biggest one is Vegas implied point totals-- teams that score more points feature kickers that score more points. (Our Maurile used to consistently rank among the Top 5 most accurate kicker projectors on FantasyPros with a "model" that was just Vegas implied total times 0.3 or whatever the precise factor he calculated was. This was a long time ago and his approach has gotten more sophisticated since then, as have everyone else's projections we're competing against, I just mean to demonstrate that projected points will always account for the vast majority of the predictive lift in any model.)

And that's the bulk of the problem for Boswell-- Vegas was consistently down on the Steelers to start the year. Their season-long over/under total was set at 8.5, so at 8-3 they've already handily outperformed preseason expectations. Vegas gave them an implied point total below 20 in six of the first seven weeks. The lone exception was an implied 23 against Dallas. For those who don't follow Vegas implied totals, 24 is usually around the median for the week (though it varies significantly from month to month-- lower in December-- and season to season-- higher in recent years than in, say, 2003). Of the 24 remaining implied totals for this week, 14 are higher than 23 and 10 are lower. Projected totals lower than 20 typically make up the bottom quarter to bottom third of teams for the week. So these are quite pessimistic projections. (This week, Pittsburgh's projected total was 20 points, which ranked 18th among all teams and was the primary driver of Boswell's low projections.)

Much like Pittsburgh's season-long win total, these also underestimated the Steelers; if you add up all of the pre-game projected totals, Vegas "expected" Pittsburgh to score 202.25 points through Week 11; they had instead scored 233, so they're outperforming expectations. Vegas' implied ranking of the Steelers has dramatically shifted, especially since the Raiders/Jets/Giants swing and the bye week. (It's hard to believe now, but Vegas had the Steelers as a 1.5-point home underdog against the Jets! By contrast, they were only a 3-point home underdog against a dramatically superior Ravens team four weeks later.) So insofar as a general low opinion was pushing Boswell down the rankings, that should no longer be an issue.

But even if Vegas has been perfectly accurate in its Pittsburgh projections, my model still wouldn't be a huge fan. Partly, this is because of stadium adjustments-- Boswell has kicked six games in "tough stadiums" (five in Pittsburgh, one in Cleveland) vs. just three in "easy stadiums" (domes in Atlanta and Indy plus altitude in Denver)-- and all three of his "easy stadium" games came in the first four weeks when Vegas was especially skeptical of Pittsburgh's offense. I don't want to put too much emphasis on this because stadium adjustments are fairly small overall.

(Also: the relevant variable for our purposes isn't actually "stadium" so much as it's "wind speed", but since I'm publishing on Tuesday and wind speed projections that far out are useless, I use a stadium adjustment as a proxy. Timo Riske of Pro Football Focus has a chart on the impact of wind speed on kick accuracy by distance in this article. It's paywalled, but the stuff that matters for our purposes here all comes before the paywall. As an illustrative example: a 45-yard field goal was an 80% proposition with no wind, but that would fall to 65% as winds pass 20mph. "Better kick accuracy because winds are always 0mph" is the largest reason why teams score more points in domes than outside.)

(There's also an adjustment in my model based on the spread and the implied likelihood of a team getting blown out, because when teams are down by multiple scores they tend to pass up field goal opportunities; Pittsburgh actually fares fairly well here since they've never been a big underdog-- their worst spread of the year was in Week 1 when they were just 3.5 point underdogs to the Falcons.)
 
But even if we had perfectly estimated the fundamentals, Boswell has been outperforming them in a way that is unsustainable. Heading into this week, he had made 29 of his 30 kicks, which at 97% was the second-highest conversion rate in the league (behind Jake Bates, who had attempted half as many kicks). It was also significantly above Boswell's career rate (87% coming into the year) and league average (85%). My model doesn't include an adjustment for kicker accuracy because outside of Justin Tucker all NFL kickers are incredibly tightly clustered.

(In the article above, Boswell was the 3rd-best kicker in the league in terms of accuracy over wind- and distance-adjusted expectation-- in large part because of his ability to kick so well in a tough stadium like Hines Field! But the expected difference between Boswell and a league-average kicker was just 3%, and the error bars are huge. For most non-Tucker kickers, the difference between "good" and "bad" is about 3 points in expectation over the course of a season. Philosophically, I tend to be extremely wary of overtuning / overfitting my models, and when I've tested in the past, the predictive gains were far too small, IMO, to justify the added complexity. I would have felt justified in adding a Tucker-specific boost just because he was so far ahead of the rest of the pack, but doing so would be fairly pointless in a streaming kicker model because Tucker is never available to stream. And now it looks like time has caught up to him, anyway.)

Had Boswell converted field goals at his career rate (88%, which is 3% over league average), he'd have entered this week with 79.2 points from field goals instead of 87, a loss of about 8 points. That would drop him to 99 points in 10 games. He'd still be the #1 fantasy kicker, but it would leave him in a virtual tie with Seibert and Fairbairn rather than head-and-shoulders the top guy.

But the real driver behind Boswell's production has been an incredibly fluky scoring mix from the Steelers. Heading into the week, 58% of Pittsburgh's scoring plays had been field goals rather than touchdowns. League average is 41.3%. 58.8% of Pittsburgh's scoring opportunities (touchdowns or field goal attempts) were field goal attempts, which ranks second behind the Cowboys (who are a bit skewed given their willingness to let Aubrey kick from insane distances in non-end-of-half situations-- though Pittsburgh has also been doing this with Boswell this year). League average is 45.3%. As a result, Boswell had scored 45.9% of Pittsburgh's points coming into this week-- league average is 32.7%. All of these percentages are... crazy and wildly unsustainable. And they all tend to regress.

It's true that not every kicker should have the same expectation for these values. Historically, kickers on low-scoring teams account for a marginally higher percentage of points. Kickers on teams with conservative coaches (measured by willingness to go on 4th down) account for a marginally higher percentage of points. These differences are fairly marginal, though-- historically kickers score around 31% of points (we're up slightly this year) and these factors might push a kicker as high as 33% or as low as 29% in expectation.

Are defense-first teams significantly more likely to settle for field goals? Here's the % of points scored by kickers on some notable teams of the past.
2000 Ravens -- 40.5%
2002 Buccaneers -- 36.8%
2015 Broncos -- 35.2%
2006 Ravens -- 34.3%
2013 Seahawks -- 34.1%
2008 Steelers -- 33.7%
2006 Bears -- 33.5%
Total -- 35.3%

Yeah, that's slightly above league average, but we're talking about the best defenses of the past 25 years here, and Pittsburgh isn't on that level. (They're certainly nowhere near the 2000 Ravens and 2002 Bucs, arguably two of the top five defenses of all time.) And again, even if they *were* on this level, if Boswell had scored 35.3% of Pittsburgh's points through ten games, he'd have 82.25 points, which would rank him 7th overall, 6th in points per game, and tied with Cameron Dicker.

Do Mike Tomlin / Chris Boswell teams get a disproportionate share of their scoring from the kicker? Here's every Steelers season since they signed Boswell.
2015 -- 32.4%
2016 -- 27.3%
2017 -- 35.0%
2018 -- 21.4% (first season without Le'Veon Bell)
2019 -- 39.8% (first season without Antonio Brown)
2020 -- 26.4%
2021 -- 39.4%
2022 -- 41.6% (first year without Ben Roethlisberger)
2023 -- 37.5%
Total -- 32.6%

One could point to the 41.6% mark in 2022, but that was with scoring cratering under rookie Kenny Pickett. Even with that insane rate, Pittsburgh only ranked 9th in kicker scoring-- and most of that was not because of Boswell. (Boswell scored 6.5 points per game in his 12 games, while Matthew Wright and Nick Sciba averaged 10.0 points per game in the five games he missed.)

In fact, there's a strong correlation between Pittsburgh's scoring offense and the kicker's share (this is a common trend that I mentioned above, but it's especially pronounced in Pittsburgh during the Boswell era). Pittsburgh averaged at least 24.9 points per game in every season from 2015-2018 and again in 2020; during these years, kickers scored 28.4% of all points. On the other end, Pittsburgh averaged 20.2 points per less in the other four years, and kickers accounted for 39.5% of all of their points during those years (which is a truly insane percentage-- and still more than 6% lower than Boswell has this year).

Overall, the correlation between points per game and kicker share is quite robust in the Tomlin/Boswell era-- 0.844, which means "how good the offense is" explains more than 70% of the variation in "what share of the scoring goes to kickers". But Pittsburgh's offense hasn't been terrible this year (it's been downright terrific compared to e.g. the Kenny Pickett era!) They were averaging 23.3 points per game heading into Week 12; based on the 2015-2023 data, that should result in an "expected kicker share" of 32.5% (basically... right on the long-run league averages). If Boswell was getting that share, he'd have 75.7 points and rank 11th among kickers.

So Boswell to this point had been something of a perfect storm of factors-- everyone underrated Pittsburgh, Boswell was putting up a career-best year, and the Steelers had a truly demented rate of scoring drives resulting in field goals. All of which mattered a great deal in terms of how much Boswell has been worth through 11 weeks. If you had him, congratulations, he's made a massive difference for your fantasy squad. Rent-a-Kicker's recommendations regarding him have been wrong. Flat wrong. Period, full stop.

But none of those factors are *predictively* useful. Setting aside the question of whether I've been wrong about Boswell to this point (I have been, full stop), what matters now is how likely it is that I'm wrong about Boswell going forward. And... obviously I don't think I am. I've tested in the past whether these factors are stable and predictive, and they're not. I've tried incorporating "points scored to date" in my model before and every time it added complexity while producing worse recommendations.

I also think back to previous kickers the model has been most consistently wrong about. In 2020, I even devoted one of my other columns, Regression Alert, to analyzing all of my failed Rent-a-Kicker recommendations of Jason Myers (who at the time played on an offense that had scored 23 touchdowns against just 2 field goals-- a brutal 8% FG ratio).

At the time I wrote that, I had recommended Myers to kicker streamers in 4 of the 5 weeks he played. Despite this, he ranked 31st in points and 28th in points per game. Readers who followed my recommendations undoubtedly lost games as a result. That sucks and is something I take very seriously. But I wrote that when I'd investigated in the past, FG mix was not predictively useful, so despite the fact that I had been wrong and had cost my readers wins, I would continue recommending Myers going forward. (I also predicted that the kickers who were most hurt by FG mix would outscore the kickers who were most helped by FG mix to that point; they did.)

From the time I published, Seattle scored 21 FGs against 32 touchdowns, a 39.6% FG rate that was basically right on league average. Myers scored about 32% of Seattle's remaining points, a rate that was basically right on league average. Myers ranked 3rd in points and 7th in points per game. The fact that I *had been* wrong did not predict that I would *continue to be* wrong.

There have been other examples. I was consistently too low on Nick Folk to open 2021; that was entirely because I was (or rather Vegas was) underestimating the Mac Jones-led Patriots offense; that was corrected over the second half of the season. I was consistently too high on Jason Sanders over the first half of last year, again due to scoring mix-- he had 37 extra point attempts vs. just 9 field goal attempts through his Week 10 bye. That FG mix reverted just as strongly as Myers, and Sanders was the #2 fantasy kicker after his bye, one point behind first.

I'm not saying my process is perfect or above reproach. Remember-- the very best models are going to be wrong 45% of the time. Through 11 weeks, I was very wrong about Chris Boswell and people undoubtedly lost games as a result. Some of them will miss the fantasy playoffs as a result. Some of them will lose out on championships they otherwise would have won if not for my advice. That's something that I am constantly aware of.

All of this is just to explain what my process is and why it is the way it is. I don't think my model is above questioning or criticism. But in seven years of searching, I have been unable to find anything that made it perform better than it currently does.
 
wow that was a lot....thanks

I think avg Joe fantasy player is now looking mostly at what teams tend to do ....especially on 4th down....and also the "attitude" of the team....DC goes for it all the time in DET now cause he has the horses that can convert it.....so while the thought of having the PK from a high scoring team like DET is nice, things just aren't the way they used to be as teams go for it on 4th down now way more then they used to...in DET you are probably guaranteed "some points" every week from Bates.....but most of them may only be extra points...and DET may even be more of an outlier, because DC seems to have no problem running up the score a little and rubbing people's noses in it....he still goes for it up 20+ and in easy FG range...along those same lines, I think if you ask most people, the narrative on Tomlin is that he is fairly conservative, likes to let his defense dictate/win games so he will take the FG points more often then not.....that is where I think avg Joe fantasy player is starting to look/lean.....and probably why some eyebrows are raised if you have Boswell ranked so low most weeks....numbers are great and statistical stuff and all that....but now it seems somewhat more about identifying a teams/coach's attitude ...stuff you really can't put stats on....and what I really like to see included when I look at recommendations....sure it puts you out there a little more cause you may not have the numbers to back it up....but at least that is how I look at PK now...(combined with dome stuff)...
 
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I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
 
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wow that was a lot....thanks

I think avg Joe fantasy player is now looking mostly at what teams tend to do ....especially on 4th down....and also the "attitude" of the team....DC goes for it all the time in DET now cause he has the horses that can convert it.....so while the thought of having the PK from a high scoring team like DET is nice, things just aren't the way they used to be as teams go for it on 4th down now way more then they used to...in DET you are probably guaranteed "some points" every week from Bates.....but most of them may only be extra points...and DET may even be more of an outlier, because DC seems to have no problem running up the score a little and rubbing people's noses in it....he still goes for it up 20+ and in easy FG range...along those same lines, I think if you ask most people, the narrative on Tomlin is that he is fairly conservative, likes to let his defense dictate/win games so he will take the FG points more often then not.....that is where I think avg Joe fantasy player is starting to look/lean.....and probably why some eyebrows are raised if you have Boswell ranked so low most weeks....numbers are great and statistical stuff and all that....but now it seems somewhat more about identifying a teams/coach's attitude ...stuff you really can't put stats on....and what I really like to see included when I look at recommendations....sure it puts you out there a little more cause you may not have the numbers to back it up....but at least that is how I look at PK now...(combined with dome stuff)...

For what it's worth, this is currently the best-performing year in the model's history (debuted in 2018, with small tweaks and new, more-granular performance tracking starting in 2020). The average of the Top 3 weekly recommendations is currently outscoring 11 of the Top 12 kickers by preseason ADP and all but three kickers overall (Boswell, Fairbairn, and Seibert-- though Boswell wasn't rostered in 50% of fantasy leagues until Week 5 and Seibert wasn't until Week 9, so managers largely haven't benefited from a significant chunk of that production). And for all the talk of Campbell's aggressiveness hurting Bates, he currently ranks 6th overall and 4th in points per game among kickers, with the potential to shoot much higher if his FG mix reverts closer to league average. (Bates has also tipped over the 50% rostered mark this week, though I advised readers in this week's column to consider holding him for a while if they have him.)

(The evidence I've seen on 4th-down aggression indicates that aggressive teams see a slightly smaller share of their scoring coming from the kicker, but score more points overall, and this largely offsets. Sure, you lose some "would-be" field goal drives that turn into touchdowns or failed fourth-down conversions. But you also get some "would-be" punts that turn into later field goals or extra points.)

I don't know that anything has fundamentally changed about how kicker scoring works, and if it has, I definitely don't know that it has changed in a way that makes the model less applicable.
 
I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football.

I mean you probably need to determine what "a lot" is, but I fear that a bunch of this is just the team being good and being able to run the football a lot in the second half to kill clock, rather than the RB being talented. Seems like the classic McCarthy quote (I want to say it's Mike as this is the sort of dumb thing he would say) where he wants to try to give a back 25 carries because when they get that many it correlates with the team winning, being completely oblivious to correlation =/= causation arguments
 
My kicker process is "are they active this week?" > whats the over/under? > weather. Anything beyond that is too galaxy brain IMO. If a kicker scores more than 6 points it is a good week.

Boswell is a unique case because the PIT offense is so woefully bad at short yardage and red zone that they end up kicking a lot.
 
good lord, quoting harstads post made this short reply have too many characters to even post and then was annoying to clear…anyway…

@Adam Harstad

2 questions:

What is the math behind the Vegas total being predictive of higher kicker totals? I could imagine some correlation, but isn’t it possible that higher totals are more indicative of more touchdowns (i.e. better offense) and lower totals are more indicative of more field goals?

Do you factor in coaching tendencies anywhere in the model and how likely or not they are to attempt field goals vs go for it on 4th down?
 
What is the math behind the Vegas total being predictive of higher kicker totals? I could imagine some correlation, but isn’t it possible that higher totals are more indicative of more touchdowns (i.e. better offense) and lower totals are more indicative of more field goals?

I have to imagine that lower totals which imply lower scoring does not necessarily correlate with stalling while in field goal range. If the over/under is comically low, it is likely a function of a combination of factors (defence much better than offence, weather etc) preventing a team getting into field goal range in the first place. I'd rather get a kicker get one point from a PAT as opposed to no points from them sending out the punting team.
 
I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.
 
My kicker process is "are they active this week?" > whats the over/under? > weather. Anything beyond that is too galaxy brain IMO. If a kicker scores more than 6 points it is a good week.

Boswell is a unique case because the PIT offense is so woefully bad at short yardage and red zone that they end up kicking a lot.
these are the things the experts could maybe be factoring in more than all the other "stat stuff"....
 
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I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.
100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....
 
good lord, quoting harstads post made this short reply have too many characters to even post and then was annoying to clear…anyway…

@Adam Harstad

2 questions:

What is the math behind the Vegas total being predictive of higher kicker totals? I could imagine some correlation, but isn’t it possible that higher totals are more indicative of more touchdowns (i.e. better offense) and lower totals are more indicative of more field goals?

Do you factor in coaching tendencies anywhere in the model and how likely or not they are to attempt field goals vs go for it on 4th down?
this in todays NFL may be the most important piece....yet there may be no way to put a number/stat on it....
 
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I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

Of course. Not sure what "stuff" you mean. All our projections are "gut calls". Sure they're impacted by stats, but all our projections are made by humans weighing out the information and making a gut call.
 
I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

Of course. Not sure what "stuff" you mean. All our projections are "gut calls". Sure they're impacted by stats, but all our projections are made by humans weighing out the information and making a gut call.
sorry but he was referring to "best performing models" and things of that nature which seemed very much more stat driven....than week to week gut calls...as the question asked above I guess we just aren't sure how the gut call portion is factored into the "best performing model yet"....
 
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I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

Of course. Not sure what "stuff" you mean. All our projections are "gut calls". Sure they're impacted by stats, but all our projections are made by humans weighing out the information and making a gut call.
sorry but he was referring to "best performing models" and things of that nature which seemed very much more stat driven....then week to week gut calls...

Sure. All our projectors weigh out models and than make their calls based on the many inputs.
 
wow that was a lot....thanks

I think avg Joe fantasy player is now looking mostly at what teams tend to do ....especially on 4th down....and also the "attitude" of the team....DC goes for it all the time in DET now cause he has the horses that can convert it.....so while the thought of having the PK from a high scoring team like DET is nice, things just aren't the way they used to be as teams go for it on 4th down now way more then they used to...in DET you are probably guaranteed "some points" every week from Bates.....but most of them may only be extra points...and DET may even be more of an outlier, because DC seems to have no problem running up the score a little and rubbing people's noses in it....he still goes for it up 20+ and in easy FG range...along those same lines, I think if you ask most people, the narrative on Tomlin is that he is fairly conservative, likes to let his defense dictate/win games so he will take the FG points more often then not.....that is where I think avg Joe fantasy player is starting to look/lean.....and probably why some eyebrows are raised if you have Boswell ranked so low most weeks....numbers are great and statistical stuff and all that....but now it seems somewhat more about identifying a teams/coach's attitude ...stuff you really can't put stats on....and what I really like to see included when I look at recommendations....sure it puts you out there a little more cause you may not have the numbers to back it up....but at least that is how I look at PK now...(combined with dome stuff)...

Bates is #6 this year on a ppg basis, 7th in overall points but has 3 closely in front that haven't had a bye.
 
@Adam Harstad - Research request that I'm not even sure is possible.

My theory on kickers in H2H leagues is that I just want to acquire the kicker from the same team of my quarterback. I draft better than average following the principles of your article last year. I use the information of the the experts here to make draft, lineup, and waiver decisions. Let's say that over time that makes me a favorite against 66% of the teams I play and that my leagues on average award playoff spots to 33% of the league. Based on this, most weeks my RB/WR/TE position are going to give me a nice advantage. The only thing that stands in my way is my QB laying an egg either by his RBs getting most of the TDs that week or drives stalling and the team kicking FGs. My premise is that on team with decent offense, if I own the Qb and kicker, I'm generally getting a bit of the apple every scoring drive with either a FG or XP. I'm now trying for max points every week like a national contest or total points leagues, I'm trying to give myself the best chance of scoring more points than my opponent most of the time.

Side note that I think many here will get a kick out of. Your reference to Chase Stuart made me wonder what he's up to and in the course of digging I came across this....

I began playing fantasy sports in the late ’90s, which was a year-round hobby as fantasy basketball and fantasy football rose in popularity (I started off with fantasy baseball). I was quickly hooked on fantasy football, but it took a couple of years before Footballguys came across my radar. The articles were terrific and opened my eyes to the intricacies and strategies of the game. But the real treasure was the site’s message board. I could post on the board and minutes later someone would reply. That was my first introduction to the value of reader feedback. I didn’t think of “posting” on the message board as writing, but it was there that I learned the appropriate ways to craft an argument. The board also helped me develop a pretty thick skin for internet criticism, the sort of armor every blogger needs.

In the summer of 2002, Dodds announced that he was requesting freelance articles from fans of the site. At the time, Pro-Football-Reference was in its infancy, which still made it the best resource for the casual fan to access statistics on the NFL. I spent a few hours copying and pasting some of PFR’s data and used that to create my freelance article for Dodds.

Every bit of success I’ve had can be traced back to that response by Dodds, and the decision by Dodds and Joe Bryant (the other co-owner at Footballguys) to keep me on staff every year since (this was written in 2013). Once I became a staffer, I was able to graduate from incompetent writer to novice, but more importantly, I made some fantastic connections. I was able to convince Doug Drinen, then and now one of the most important people at Footballguys, to mentor me. That’s probably what happens when you e-mail a guy 1,000 times.
 
I endorse the wall of text in Adam's last two posts.

I'll add a much shorter version.

When a running back gets a lot of fantasy points over some span of games, it's usually in large part because he's really good at football. Being really good at football is something that generally carries over from one week to the next. So a running back who's scored a lot in the recent past can fairly be expected to score a lot in the immediate future as well.

Same with players at all the other fantasy positions -- except kicker.

Kickers don't score points by being especially good at football. (They're all about the same.) Instead, they score points by being on teams that attempt a lot of field goals. But unlike being good at football, attempting a lot of field goals does not tend to carry over much from week to week. (Especially once expected team points are controlled for.)

"This guy scored a lot of fantasy points over the past few weeks, so I'm going to start him this week" is logic that is just uniquely inapplicable to kickers.

tldr: Kickers, man... Kickers.
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

Of course. Not sure what "stuff" you mean. All our projections are "gut calls". Sure they're impacted by stats, but all our projections are made by humans weighing out the information and making a gut call.
sorry but he was referring to "best performing models" and things of that nature which seemed very much more stat driven....then week to week gut calls...

Sure. All our projectors weigh out models and than make their calls based on the many inputs.
fair enough....but as pointed out above the "models" basically whiffed on Boswell most of the year so far and it doesn't seem as though the gut factor played much in the "making the call " part of process....or else recommendations and results may have been better...as Harstad admitted...
 
good lord, quoting harstads post made this short reply have too many characters to even post and then was annoying to clear…anyway…

@Adam Harstad

2 questions:

What is the math behind the Vegas total being predictive of higher kicker totals? I could imagine some correlation, but isn’t it possible that higher totals are more indicative of more touchdowns (i.e. better offense) and lower totals are more indicative of more field goals?

Do you factor in coaching tendencies anywhere in the model and how likely or not they are to attempt field goals vs go for it on 4th down?

I'd have to look up my exact numbers, but it is correct that higher totals don't correlate to more kicker production at a strict 1:1 rate. On a league-average offense, the kicker usually accounts for about 31% of the points. For every marginal point per game above that, though, the kicker doesn't get the full 31%-- he gets something like 18%. So e.g. a kicker on a 22ppg offense might get 31% of the points while a kicker on a 26ppg offense might get 29% (and a kicker on an 18ppg offense might get 34%).

The crucial observation, though, is that while the relationship isn't strictly 1:1, more scoring is still more better. It compresses the range (the spread between kicker production is smaller than the spread between offensive production) but the best offenses still have a strong tendency to produce better kickers than average offenses, which still produce better kickers than bad offenses.

I do not currently factor in coaching tendencies and it's something I've looked into in the past. From my brief look, hyper-aggressive coaches can cost their kicker another 1-2% of the scoring share. Partially offsetting this is that hyper-aggressive coaches tend to oversee offenses that score more points, which helps their kicker out. (Though Vegas implied totals will already account for this, so counting it in a model would mean double-counting it.)

The primary reason I didn't add an "aggressiveness factor" into the model last time is because the coach who prompted me to investigate was Brandon Staley and he just... stopped being aggressive. Like, cold turkey. I also remember when Ron Rivera was one of the most aggressive coaches in the league for a season or two (remember "Riverboat Ron"?) until he just... stopped. It's made me a bit gun-shy about how predictable aggression really will be. But given Campbell and Sirianni's seeming commitment to it, I'll probably look at it again this offseason.
 
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.

Is Pittsburgh pretty unique? It stands out among other teams in 2024, but history is long and we've seen plenty of other defense-first teams with hyper-conservative head coaches (who were perhaps not the best at gameday management). We've had defense-first teams with this exact hyper-conservative head coach we can compare against.

Even comparing to the most conservative, defensive teams of the last 25 years, Pittsburgh currently stands out as a massive outlier. Pittsburgh is scoring way more field goals relative to touchdowns than even the 2000 Baltimore Ravens, who were themselves head and shoulders above all the other defense-first teams at it. I feel fairly comfortable betting it will regress significantly going forward.

So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.
100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

For what it's worth, I don't "want to base things on stats". In dynasty, I've written dozens of articles now about why I don't use projections and instead rely on simple rules of thumb (essentially battle-tested gut calls) for my team management.

I want to base things on what I think works the best. For dynasty, I find that's heuristics. For kickers, I find that's statistics. But even when I built a model for kickers, I did it in a much more "gut-centric" way: my model is purely categorical, I'm not projecting totals at all. I don't do fine-grained differentiations within each bucket-- the guys who rate as "great plays" are all equally great plays, the guys who rate as "good plays" are all equally good plays.

fair enough....but as pointed out above the "models" basically whiffed on Boswell most of the year so far and it doesn't seem as though the gut factor played much in the "making the call " part of process....or else recommendations and results may have been better...as Harstad admitted...

I could incorporate my gut in a way that would have made my projections for Chris Boswell better, yes. The challenge is doing it in a way that doesn't simultaneously make all of my other recommendations worse. I can add a "reward kickers whose teams will likely stall out short of the end zone" factor and it'll elevate Boswell. And that's good.

It'll also elevate, say, Joey Slye and Cairo Santos. And that's bad. The goal of my model isn't to maximize the accuracy of my predictions for Chris Boswell specifically, it's to maximize the number of points scored by a reader who starts the highest available guy on the list. And on that front, it's had up years (2021) and down years (2022). But so far 2024 has been a really, really good year!

It's likely anyone who has followed recommendations this year is 2nd or 3rd in kicker scoring (behind Fairbairn and possibly Boswell, depending on when he got claimed and who they were starting before) despite not devoting a single resource to the position. Sure, they could have been better off if they'd drafted Fairbairn or added Boswell early. But they could have been worse off if they drafted, say, Justin Tucker or added Austin Seibert. (His total for the season is high, but most of that production came on the waiver wire in early weeks.) I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve the model's overall performance, but realistically, there's not a whole lot of room for improvement over results to date. (Which, I will note, are also on a hot streak and likely to regress going forward. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.)
 
@Adam Harstad - Research request that I'm not even sure is possible.

My theory on kickers in H2H leagues is that I just want to acquire the kicker from the same team of my quarterback. I draft better than average following the principles of your article last year. I use the information of the the experts here to make draft, lineup, and waiver decisions. Let's say that over time that makes me a favorite against 66% of the teams I play and that my leagues on average award playoff spots to 33% of the league. Based on this, most weeks my RB/WR/TE position are going to give me a nice advantage. The only thing that stands in my way is my QB laying an egg either by his RBs getting most of the TDs that week or drives stalling and the team kicking FGs. My premise is that on team with decent offense, if I own the Qb and kicker, I'm generally getting a bit of the apple every scoring drive with either a FG or XP. I'm now trying for max points every week like a national contest or total points leagues, I'm trying to give myself the best chance of scoring more points than my opponent most of the time.

Side note that I think many here will get a kick out of. Your reference to Chase Stuart made me wonder what he's up to and in the course of digging I came across this....

I began playing fantasy sports in the late ’90s, which was a year-round hobby as fantasy basketball and fantasy football rose in popularity (I started off with fantasy baseball). I was quickly hooked on fantasy football, but it took a couple of years before Footballguys came across my radar. The articles were terrific and opened my eyes to the intricacies and strategies of the game. But the real treasure was the site’s message board. I could post on the board and minutes later someone would reply. That was my first introduction to the value of reader feedback. I didn’t think of “posting” on the message board as writing, but it was there that I learned the appropriate ways to craft an argument. The board also helped me develop a pretty thick skin for internet criticism, the sort of armor every blogger needs.

In the summer of 2002, Dodds announced that he was requesting freelance articles from fans of the site. At the time, Pro-Football-Reference was in its infancy, which still made it the best resource for the casual fan to access statistics on the NFL. I spent a few hours copying and pasting some of PFR’s data and used that to create my freelance article for Dodds.

Every bit of success I’ve had can be traced back to that response by Dodds, and the decision by Dodds and Joe Bryant (the other co-owner at Footballguys) to keep me on staff every year since (this was written in 2013). Once I became a staffer, I was able to graduate from incompetent writer to novice, but more importantly, I made some fantastic connections. I was able to convince Doug Drinen, then and now one of the most important people at Footballguys, to mentor me. That’s probably what happens when you e-mail a guy 1,000 times.

Yeah, one of my favorite uses of the kicker and defense spot in fantasy is tweaking correlations. Start a defense against the opponent's QB when you're a big underdog, say. Or pairing QB/PK (although I think the correlations there are actually positive-- a big day from the QB is more likely to lead to a big day from the kicker than a small one). I know the League Dominator factors all of these cross-positional correlations into its recommendations already, which is super cool. (I also think if people are worried about consistency-- and they shouldn't be, but I know some are-- the best way to achieve it is by looking at cross-positional correlations rather than seeking out "consistent" or "inconsistent" players.)

As for Chase, he has a kid now! I mean, it's less surprising to me since I'm essentially the same age and I've had kids for ages. But I know many who still think of him as 18 in perpetuity. :)
 
I could incorporate my gut in a way that would have made my projections for Chris Boswell better, yes. The challenge is doing it in a way that doesn't simultaneously make all of my other recommendations worse. I can add a "reward kickers whose teams will likely stall out short of the end zone" factor and it'll elevate Boswell. And that's good.

It'll also elevate, say, Joey Slye and Cairo Santos. And that's bad. The goal of my model isn't to maximize the accuracy of my predictions for Chris Boswell specifically, it's to maximize the number of points scored by a reader who starts the highest available guy on the list. And on that front, it's had up years (2021) and down years (2022). But so far 2024 has been a really, really good year!

It's likely anyone who has followed recommendations this year is 2nd or 3rd in kicker scoring (behind Fairbairn and possibly Boswell, depending on when he got claimed and who they were starting before) despite not devoting a single resource to the position. Sure, they could have been better off if they'd drafted Fairbairn or added Boswell early. But they could have been worse off if they drafted, say, Justin Tucker or added Austin Seibert. (His total for the season is high, but most of that production came on the waiver wire in early weeks.) I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve the model's overall performance, but realistically, there's not a whole lot of room for improvement over results to date. (Which, I will note, are also on a hot streak and likely to regress going forward. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.)

Thank you @Adam Harstad

And I'll add from a more big picture angle, it's good to illustrate the ups and downs. Thanks.
 
but at least that is how I look at PK now...(combined with dome stuff)...

And that's awesome. We simply wanted to share our thinking here with folks. We put it out there into the world and people do with it what they will. If someone has a different take or disagrees, that's fantastic. Finding the way that works for you and a way that you enjoy is a huge part of fantasy football.
 
So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.

Is Pittsburgh pretty unique? It stands out among other teams in 2024, but history is long and we've seen plenty of other defense-first teams with hyper-conservative head coaches (who were perhaps not the best at gameday management). We've had defense-first teams with this exact hyper-conservative head coach we can compare against.

Even comparing to the most conservative, defensive teams of the last 25 years, Pittsburgh currently stands out as a massive outlier. Pittsburgh is scoring way more field goals relative to touchdowns than even the 2000 Baltimore Ravens, who were themselves head and shoulders above all the other defense-first teams at it. I feel fairly comfortable betting it will regress significantly going forward.

So you don't think a conservative coach - One that isn't always going for it like Siriani- isn't relevant to picking a kicker? I read most of Adam's treatise but that seems to eliminate the coaching aspects at least directly. Basically Boswell's a good choice because he is a reasonably good kicker on a good team that isn't particularly strong on offense (but not awful either) and has an old-school coach making game-day decisions. In a lot of ways Pittsburgh's situation is pretty unique and maybe needs recognized for being the unicorn that is has been.

Having said all that I looked at the forecast for Last night and Switched Kickers.
100% this....but dudes doing rankings and who we turn to as the "experts" want to be able to base things on stats more often than not and will defend their position of "even the experts are wrong 45% of the time" or whatever...I actually prefer to hear gut calls instead of stats calls....

For what it's worth, I don't "want to base things on stats". In dynasty, I've written dozens of articles now about why I don't use projections and instead rely on simple rules of thumb (essentially battle-tested gut calls) for my team management.

I want to base things on what I think works the best. For dynasty, I find that's heuristics. For kickers, I find that's statistics. But even when I built a model for kickers, I did it in a much more "gut-centric" way: my model is purely categorical, I'm not projecting totals at all. I don't do fine-grained differentiations within each bucket-- the guys who rate as "great plays" are all equally great plays, the guys who rate as "good plays" are all equally good plays.

fair enough....but as pointed out above the "models" basically whiffed on Boswell most of the year so far and it doesn't seem as though the gut factor played much in the "making the call " part of process....or else recommendations and results may have been better...as Harstad admitted...

I could incorporate my gut in a way that would have made my projections for Chris Boswell better, yes. The challenge is doing it in a way that doesn't simultaneously make all of my other recommendations worse. I can add a "reward kickers whose teams will likely stall out short of the end zone" factor and it'll elevate Boswell. And that's good.

It'll also elevate, say, Joey Slye and Cairo Santos. And that's bad. The goal of my model isn't to maximize the accuracy of my predictions for Chris Boswell specifically, it's to maximize the number of points scored by a reader who starts the highest available guy on the list. And on that front, it's had up years (2021) and down years (2022). But so far 2024 has been a really, really good year!

It's likely anyone who has followed recommendations this year is 2nd or 3rd in kicker scoring (behind Fairbairn and possibly Boswell, depending on when he got claimed and who they were starting before) despite not devoting a single resource to the position. Sure, they could have been better off if they'd drafted Fairbairn or added Boswell early. But they could have been worse off if they drafted, say, Justin Tucker or added Austin Seibert. (His total for the season is high, but most of that production came on the waiver wire in early weeks.) I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve the model's overall performance, but realistically, there's not a whole lot of room for improvement over results to date. (Which, I will note, are also on a hot streak and likely to regress going forward. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.)
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm in the opposite category. My "gut call" was to draft Boswell. It was great until I noticed that he was a consistent "avoid" and Jake Elliott, who was a consistent "great" or "good" play was available.
 
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm in the opposite category. My "gut call" was to draft Boswell. It was great until I noticed that he was a consistent "avoid" and Jake Elliott, who was a consistent "great" or "good" play was available.
I know it probably doesn't help, but that really sucks and I'm sorry. I'm always pretty keenly aware that perfection is impossible, that being a "good analyst" in this space means that maybe 56% of people who follow your advice wind up with more wins and 44% wind up with fewer. Intellectually, I can take comfort in the belief that I'm helping more than I'm hurting on net. But the 44% who wind up worse off certainly don't take any comfort in that, and nor should they. It's my job to care about my readers' successes. It's not their job to care about each others' successes, and any such appeals should ring hollow. The only teams you should care about are your own.

Anyone who reads anything I write is placing their trust in me. Anyone who actually HEEDS what I write is placing an even bigger trust. If you don't take that seriously, I wonder what you're doing in this industry-- it's certainly not trying to help people. If that 44% doesn't eat at you, what's going to motivate you to bust your *** to drop it down to 42%? To 40%?

I'm sure it's too little, too late, but I do genuinely believe that Boswell's performance to this point was a fluke and he won't sustain it down the stretch. Fluky points count the same as any others, so that's no help for now. But-- providence permitting and the creek don't rise-- hopefully this will be a recommendation that stings a bit less a few weeks from now.
 
We simply wanted to share our thinking here with folks.
I think posting a few of these a week is a fantastic idea. It doesn't matter whether you're "right" to me, but it's nice to see the thinking that someone like @Adam Harstad has behind a particular ranking.

Not much of it will help me in real time with weekly decisions because usually by this time of year, most of my players are either hurt or have shown they stink :lol:

Kudos and more of this, please.
 
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm in the opposite category. My "gut call" was to draft Boswell. It was great until I noticed that he was a consistent "avoid" and Jake Elliott, who was a consistent "great" or "good" play was available.
I know it probably doesn't help, but that really sucks and I'm sorry. I'm always pretty keenly aware that perfection is impossible, that being a "good analyst" in this space means that maybe 56% of people who follow your advice wind up with more wins and 44% wind up with fewer. Intellectually, I can take comfort in the belief that I'm helping more than I'm hurting on net. But the 44% who wind up worse off certainly don't take any comfort in that, and nor should they. It's my job to care about my readers' successes. It's not their job to care about each others' successes, and any such appeals should ring hollow. The only teams you should care about are your own.

Anyone who reads anything I write is placing their trust in me. Anyone who actually HEEDS what I write is placing an even bigger trust. If you don't take that seriously, I wonder what you're doing in this industry-- it's certainly not trying to help people. If that 44% doesn't eat at you, what's going to motivate you to bust your *** to drop it down to 42%? To 40%?

I'm sure it's too little, too late, but I do genuinely believe that Boswell's performance to this point was a fluke and he won't sustain it down the stretch. Fluky points count the same as any others, so that's no help for now. But-- providence permitting and the creek don't rise-- hopefully this will be a recommendation that stings a bit less a few weeks from now.
honest question....is the bolded basically just based on models and stats saying it won't sustain or do you have other opinions on why it won't sustain that are based on something else....like you think Tomlin will get more aggressive.....game scripts will all of a sudden change for PIT....?....Boswell with start to succumb to the "elements" or things of that nature or are you just gonna kind of die on the hill of there has to be a regression to the mean based on models....
 

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