Smack Tripper
Footballguy
If we want to call him the Sabermetric Champion of the world, fine, but a .500 pitcher, regardless the circumstances, does not deserve this award. Pressure free games in a pitchers park in a creampuff division?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
King Felix does not deserve the Cy (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Smack Tripper
- Start date
Master of Past and Present
Footballguy
1/10
fasteddie_21
2006 NM Poker Champ
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
6 lg. eggs
1 1/2 c. water
1 1/2 sticks butter
1/4 tsp. salt
1 1/2 c. flour
One recipe
4 eggs
1 c. water
1 stick butter
1/8 tsp. salt
1 c. flour
Heat water, butter and salt until melted and mixture boils. Remove from heat and vigorously stir in flour all at once with wooden spoon until mixture forms a ball and leaves side of pan.
Add eggs one at a time beating after each until mixture is smooth and satiny. Cool mixture slightly (5 minutes).
Preheat oven to 400 degrees. Lightly grease pan and drop from spoon to make ring. Keep close together and smooth top so peaks won't burn. Bake about 1 hour until golden. Leave in, shut off oven for 15 minutes.
Then prepare creme or custard filling for puffs.
1 1/2 c. water
1 1/2 sticks butter
1/4 tsp. salt
1 1/2 c. flour
One recipe
4 eggs
1 c. water
1 stick butter
1/8 tsp. salt
1 c. flour
Heat water, butter and salt until melted and mixture boils. Remove from heat and vigorously stir in flour all at once with wooden spoon until mixture forms a ball and leaves side of pan.
Add eggs one at a time beating after each until mixture is smooth and satiny. Cool mixture slightly (5 minutes).
Preheat oven to 400 degrees. Lightly grease pan and drop from spoon to make ring. Keep close together and smooth top so peaks won't burn. Bake about 1 hour until golden. Leave in, shut off oven for 15 minutes.
Then prepare creme or custard filling for puffs.
Workhorse
Footballguy
Here's why I'd give the Cy Young to Jon Lester over King Felix:
Hernandez pitched half his games in the best pitchers park in the league. Jon Lester pitched half his games in the best hitters park in the league.
Look at their ROAD stats:
Felix: 2.46 ERA, 131.2 IP, 105 Hits, 10 HR, 113 Ks, 45 BBs -- Line against: .216/.289/.342
Lester: 2.33 ERA, 108.1 IP, 71 Hits, 2 HR, 132 Ks, 39 BBs -- Line against: .185/.266/.243
Hernandez pitched half his games in the best pitchers park in the league. Jon Lester pitched half his games in the best hitters park in the league.
Look at their ROAD stats:
Felix: 2.46 ERA, 131.2 IP, 105 Hits, 10 HR, 113 Ks, 45 BBs -- Line against: .216/.289/.342
Lester: 2.33 ERA, 108.1 IP, 71 Hits, 2 HR, 132 Ks, 39 BBs -- Line against: .185/.266/.243
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
Fixed.Workhorse said:
dennis.moore
Footballguy
With neither the Red Sox or Mariners making the playoffs, the Cy will go to Sabathia or Price.
Master of Past and Present
Footballguy
Red Sox runs scored home: 399 (78 games, 3 left)Red Sox runs scored away: 395 (80 games, 1 left)You'd think the offense would reflect a bigger difference playing half their games in the best hitters park. The Yankees for example scored 473 at home and 366 on the road. If the Sox had that sort of difference, would seem to be a stronger point. On the flip side, the Mariners scored 232 at home (3 left) and 269 on the road (1 left) which amounts to .4 less runs a game. Felix's stats reflect this, his home ERA is 2.06 and his road ERA is 2.46 which is that difference of .4. In the end, his offense scored .4 less per game at Safeco while Felix gave up .4 less there. Perfect symmetry. The question is, if the Red Sox did the same whether it was home or road, why didn't Lester? Clay Buchholz went 17-7 and had a lower home ERA than road in the same conditions. Why didn't his ERA jack up at home like Lester's?Maybe just me but was Lester even Cy Young on his team? Buchholz looks really solid, why not argue for him? He gave up just 1 HR in that hitters park in 13 starts.Workhorse said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Workhorse
Footballguy
You can't just look at runs scored by the home team, you look at overall Park Factor -- The runs scored/allowed by both teams per game on home vs. road.
Fenway rates as the 4th best hitters park in AL this season (park factor: 1.072), and is pretty much always top 3 or 4.
Safeco field rates as the 2nd best pitchers park in the AL this season (park factor: 0.806) and is pretty much always top 3 or 4.
Plus, LHPs at Fenway like Lester face more of a challenge than many other parks due to the Green Monster effect, adding a boatload of OPS against Righty hitters with wall balls that are outs in many other ballparks. Fenway is pretty accurately known as the park where lefties go to die.
Fenway rates as the 4th best hitters park in AL this season (park factor: 1.072), and is pretty much always top 3 or 4.
Safeco field rates as the 2nd best pitchers park in the AL this season (park factor: 0.806) and is pretty much always top 3 or 4.
Plus, LHPs at Fenway like Lester face more of a challenge than many other parks due to the Green Monster effect, adding a boatload of OPS against Righty hitters with wall balls that are outs in many other ballparks. Fenway is pretty accurately known as the park where lefties go to die.
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
David Price will win the Cy Young.
King Felix will finish 2nd.
Sabathia is a Yankee, and thus, will not win the award.
Lester will finish third.
I cannot remember a Cy Young race being this competitive. These guys would win in almost any other year.
King Felix will finish 2nd.
Sabathia is a Yankee, and thus, will not win the award.
Lester will finish third.
I cannot remember a Cy Young race being this competitive. These guys would win in almost any other year.
Eephus
Footballguy
This is a better analysis that just saying Hernandez does not deserve the CYA. All of them are deserving, only one can win. That's a big difference.
Osaurus
Footballguy
It would be a shock to most of us bad fans in Tampa if Price got it. Not that I don't think that he doesn't deserve it. His 2 games going head to head with the Hamburglar were
Last edited by a moderator:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Because I think David Price deserves the award?
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
honest question.... What puts him over the top, how he pitched vs the Yankees?Smack Tripper said:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
No, I would say his September overall would put him over the top. When CC was on his run of quality starts, I wrote in the Yankee thread in August that he deserved it and he did if we gave the 4 and a half month cy young. But for the whole season, in a big spot, pressure games, his overall performance coupled with a great september that will likely pitch the rays to the division title, I think its an entirely different animal than pitching in meaningless games in a pitchers park. You factor in road games in a home friendly division, with some slugging teams, I think he certainly nets what is a subjective award.
I know its not a pitchers MVP per se, but I think more goes into being the best pitcher than the best numbers. Pressure and situation is part of this. Price is less apt to leave a game he doesn't have it in, as he's anchoring the rotation of a contending team. As such, his numbers may not be a five alarm wow, but I would give it to him over a guy who's 13-12, regardless of what stats followed.
dparker713
Footballguy
You think its less pressure going to the mound each time and knowing that giving up 1 run probably means a loss and giving up two almost certainly is a loss?You also might want to take a look at Felix's numbers against the AL East 6-1 with a 0.63 ERA I believe. Plus, he never gets to pitch against the Mariners dreadful lineup, whereas Price never has to pitch against Tampa's very good lineup.
And the award isn't even remotely a pitchers' MVP. Not even per se. The MVP award is the pitchers' MVP award. The Cy Young goes to the best pitcher in the league. I could see using penant races as a tie breaker, but not as a primary criteria.
Last edited by a moderator:
Txns8
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
You are the king of overreactions, aren't you?Cabrera to miss the last 5 games!!! Oh well, hand the MVP to Sabathia.
Felix to miss his last start!!! Oh no. Hand the Cy to Sabathia.
Last edited by a moderator:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I'd take less issue with him getting it if there weren't viable alternatives.
shadyridr
Footballguy
what viable alternatives? He leads all AL pitchers in all the important stat categories except wins. It was impossible to win more games than he did on the Mariners. Cy Young is not an MVP category
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Is there a move by the stat nerds to get wins stricken from a pitchers stat line completely?
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Steve Carlton won 27 games on a team that won 65 or something crazy like that. Do you not think there is a difference pitching home games in the AL west at a giant park versus pitching in the AL East?
scoobus
Footballguy
CC SABATHIA: 21-7, 3.18 ERA, 237 2/3 IP, 197 K’sAgainst …
Baltimore (6 starts) 5-1, 3.56 ERA, 43 IP, 31 K’s
Boston (4 starts) 1-0, 3.96 ERA, 25 IP, 17 K’s
Tampa Bay (5 starts) 1-2, 3.38 ERA, 34 2/3 IP, 29 K’s
Toronto (1 start), 1-0. 1.08 ERA, 8 1/3 IP 8 K’s
Total: (16 starts) 8-3, 3.41 ERA, 111 IP, 85 K’s
DAVID PRICE: 19-6, 2.73 ERA, 207 2/3 IP, 187 K’s
Against …
Baltimore (2 starts), 2-0, 0.60 ERA, 15 IP, 15 K’s
Boston (3 starts), 2-1, 2.61 ERA, 20 2/3 IP, 20 K’s
New York (4 starts), 2-1, 4.39 ERA, 26 2/3 IP, 21 K’s
Toronto (4 starts), 4-0, 0.58 ERA, 31 IP, 23 K’s
Total: (13 starts) 10-2, 2.12 ERA, 93 1/3 IP, 79 K’s
FELIX HERNANDEZ: 13-12, 2.27 ERA, 249 2/3 IP 232 K’s
Against …
Baltimore (2 starts), 1-0, 0.56 ERA, 16 IP, 13 K’s
Boston (1 start), 1-0, 1.23 ERA, 7 1/3 IP, 9 K’s
New York (3 starts) 3-0, 0.35 ERA, 26 IP, 31 K’s
Toronto (1 start), 0-1, 1.13 ERA, 8 IP, 5 K’s
Total: (7 starts) 5-1, 0.63 ERA, 57 1/3 IP, 58 K’s
Last edited by a moderator:
shadyridr
Footballguy
Better check your stats buddy. Hernandez absolutely dominated the AL East
shadyridr
Footballguy
The Al East argument is horrible since he dominated vs them and actually did worse vs the AL WestSmack Tripper
Footballguy
Ok, so are we to think he would have dominated going through those teams 3-4 times as opposed to 1-2 times? What would David Price do in Felix's shoes?
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Felix needs to get out of Seattle for a chance to win 300 career games.
the moops
Footballguy
You are trying too hard.Felix pitched against the Yankees 3 times. Price pitched against them 4 times. Is that one start really that much of a difference?
Masked Vigilante
Footballguy
Fixed
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
These are very interesting stats. The only "but" I can see is that Price and Sabathia pitched pretty much two times the innings that Felix did against the division, and if you double up on Felix's numbers to account for that he probably ends up closer to them only with more losses (because his team would have lost even more).It really is a great argument. I don't see how the best pitcher in the league can be a .500 pitcher. Wins have to matter to me, the question becomes are his other numbers so much more dominant that the wins column doesn't matter. If he was 13-12 but 10 of those 13 were no hitters, he would obviously be the best. That some of them were probably pretty close helps him. His ERA is 1 run better than CC. Does that make up for a .500 record? Maybe. Although if you knock 1 run off of CC's ERA he may have 25 wins (that stat adjustment thing needs to work both ways).
I think that if it was just CC v. Price, CC wins because of that 20th game. I could be wrong there, but that's my opinion. But adding Felix give Price more beneficial arguments and throw the whole thing into whack. And then I remember that Price's team won the division.
Not an easy vote. I think I would vote CC, but I'm not sure. I don't envy the voters at all on this one and don't think there is a wrong answer between any of these three.
whoknew
Footballguy
This has been debated to death, but why do wins have to matter? They are a team concept - not an individual one. Cy Young is an individual award. Wins are a great stat for measuring a team's accomplishment. They are a pretty awful stat for measuring an individual's accomplishment.Yankee23Fan said:
the moops
Footballguy
Seems to me that giving the Cy automatically to the guy with the most wins is like giving the MVP to the guy with the most RBI. Yes, they are probably a very good player if they did eithe rof those things, and probably deserve a 2nd look just because of that, but to discount so many other statistical categories is foolish, IMO.
And yes, I know that those 2 awards use different criteria, but it is almost always supposedly given to the best player.
And yes, I know that those 2 awards use different criteria, but it is almost always supposedly given to the best player.
