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Kobe Bryant Retires Tonight: Place In NBA History (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Bruce Dickinson
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
It was David Stern who did this with his veto of Chris Paul trade. Without that abomination, not only would Kobe have won another title and the Lakers still be on top as an organization, but Kobe wouldn't have needed to push his body to the breaking point to carry sorry Dwight and Nash to the playoffs, meaning he likely never tears his Achilles and continues to be a great player. Paul would have helped carry the load and taken more of the ball handling duties to allow Kobe to age gracefully. Without the veto, he might not even be retiring.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
And if Kobe doesn't act like a petulant child, he plays in Charlotte and doesn't get to ride Shaq's coattails to 3 championship.
Fun game.
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No, he would have been drafted much earlier than Charlotte's pick. I thought you were more knowledgable about basketball than that.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
When did Kobe choose his team? He got drafted by Charlotte and Jerry West traded for him.The Commish said:
It's just some BS that has evolved as organizations make sense about passing him up.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I don't understand why they included Pistons fans in that commercial. Kobe's teams never beat the Pistons for a title. I also didn't understand the omission of Pacers, 76ers, Magic and/or Nets fans. Spurs fans should have been in there somewhere too given all the conference title match ups. Including the Kings fans and dancing girls was gold though, even if they didn't have cowbells.This thread like that Nike commercial last night.
"I hate you."
Brendon1215
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I didn't say he chose his team. I said he had a short list of NBA teams he demanded to play for or he was going to Europe to play. Though if you ask him, Charlotte bailed on him before he got his chance and that was the chip he needed to "make it" in the NBA. He woke up thinking about it every day and went to bed thinking about it every night. Though, of course, that story line makes little sense given his snubbing of Charlotte for a private workout prior to the draft.
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Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Keep in mind this was 1996, drafting high schoolers was pretty new (Garnett was in the previous year's draft) and teams weren't quite sure how quickly high schoolers would develop going straight to the NBA, so some teams didn't consider taking a high school kid too seriously.
Anyway, one of the influences on Kobe turning pro out of high school was Adidas, who promised a $1MM signing bonus (enormous endorsement money by 1996 standards) as a high school graduation present if he would skip college and wear Adidas in the NBA. With that type of investment, it was in Kobe's best interest to play in a big market. Jerry West saw future HOF talent in Kobe as a high schooler and wanted him as a Laker. So the Bryants, Arm Tellem, and Adidas cooked up a story that Kobe would go turn pro in Italy (Kobe lived for a few years as a kid when his father played pro ball in Italy) if anyone besides the Lakers drafted him. So that's the story they told whenever a team drafting high inquired about him.
New Nets coach/GM John Calipari knew Kobe was the real deal and knew he had enough time to develop him. And figuring Jersey was close enough to New York and not too far away from Philadephia (when Kobe played high school ball, his dad played for the Sixers for a bit, too) the Nets were set on taking Kobe. But Team Kobe held firm on their threat to take Kobe's talents to Italy, and Calipari couldn't convince Nets ownership to pull the trigger on the pick.
Charlotte called the bluff and took Kobe. Kobe refused to report to Charlotte. West knew he was going to sign Shaq and Vlade Divac was expendable. When it became clear Kobe wasn't going to be Hornet, they traded his draft rights to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, filling a position of big need around a pretty talented team, but still not what they really wanted to do.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Shrugs said:
John Elway being the MVP of a Super Bowl in his final game is far more impressive than scoring a ton of points on a ton of shots on a really bad team against a team that had been eliminated from playoff contention and played like they didn't care.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
I bet that game for Kobe was pretty much the most fun anyone has ever had playing basketball ever.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Whitlock didn't hold back,
Called Kobe "The most fraudulent superstar celebrity athlete we've ever seen" and "his narcissism and selfishness destroyed a franchise."
Tell us how you really feel, Jason.
Called Kobe "The most fraudulent superstar celebrity athlete we've ever seen" and "his narcissism and selfishness destroyed a franchise."
Tell us how you really feel, Jason.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
http://www.nola.com/pelicans/index.ssf/2016/04/kobe_bryant_refused_to_sign_ni.html#incart_river_mobile_home_pop
Kobe Bryant refused to sign Nick Young's sneakers; tossed them in trash instead
Kobe Bryant refused to sign Nick Young's sneakers; tossed them in trash instead
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
So... what next for Kobe?
He doesn't seem like the TV studio show talking head type. Can't picture him slinging it around Inside The NBA with Ernie, Charles, and Jet. Or whatever comparable offering ESPN has.
I could see him as an asset to a deep dive show on NBA TV or something like that. But he's probably too big a name to go there.
Doubt he has the temperament to be a head coach. As I said before, that's not intended to be a knock on Kobe as it is a general reflection on the coaching records and longevity of top-tier players running benches. Ask Magic or Bird how they liked coaching.
I really do think he could be a pretty good GM or team president, but his NBA identity is so tightly woven with the Lakers and LA, it's difficult to picture him packing up Vanessa and the kids to take a job in the Timberwolves front office.
I think it would be good for the sport for a guy like Kobe to round up some investors and be the face of a group buying a team or starting an expansion franchise.
He doesn't seem like the TV studio show talking head type. Can't picture him slinging it around Inside The NBA with Ernie, Charles, and Jet. Or whatever comparable offering ESPN has.
I could see him as an asset to a deep dive show on NBA TV or something like that. But he's probably too big a name to go there.
Doubt he has the temperament to be a head coach. As I said before, that's not intended to be a knock on Kobe as it is a general reflection on the coaching records and longevity of top-tier players running benches. Ask Magic or Bird how they liked coaching.
I really do think he could be a pretty good GM or team president, but his NBA identity is so tightly woven with the Lakers and LA, it's difficult to picture him packing up Vanessa and the kids to take a job in the Timberwolves front office.
I think it would be good for the sport for a guy like Kobe to round up some investors and be the face of a group buying a team or starting an expansion franchise.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I'd love for Kobe to take on a position as Mitch's assistant and spend 2-3 years absorbing the role until Mitch retires. Problem of course is that LA already has too many voices in the front office already.
This "art of storytelling" BS reaks of an overinflated ego who doesn't have someone in his life telling him no. I think it will be a complete disaster, whatever it is.
This "art of storytelling" BS reaks of an overinflated ego who doesn't have someone in his life telling him no. I think it will be a complete disaster, whatever it is.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I hadn't heard about Kobe, Inc. or Kobe Studios until some perfunctory reading a few minutes ago. I'm skeptical about his ability to "grow brands that challenge and redefine the sports industry", but it's not like it's a one-man operation. We didn't hear a lot about outside business interests from Kobe while he was playing, but part of that might be the introvert in him, and I'll just describe his personal brand equity as a player as "volatile" and leave it at that. I'm thinking of this in contrast to Magic Johnson, who was open about wanting to have business interests outside of basketball and endorsements even from his early days as a player.
I don't recall him having much of an entourage unlike other successful prep-to-pro players: Garnett had a Vincent Chase-type group in his house in Minnesota (KG even put his childhood friend "Bug" in his Nike ad playing foosball against Brandi Chastain), and LeBron's inclusion of his Akron friends in all things LeBron, Inc. are well-documented. The narrative was his liked to break down video in his hotel room while on the road, and spend time with Vanessa and the kids at home. Not saying this is good or bad, though it probably means it's less like Kobe has sunk costs on his ledger like "seed money for his best friend from 8th grade open a nightclub" or similar horror stories of pro athletes squeezed by their pre-pro history.
So maybe he is done with the game directly. If Jerry Buss and Jerry West were still around maybe it would be different, but there sure seem to be some knuckleheads with decision-making power at Lakers headquarters right now. There is a competitive side to marketing that could give him the juice that helped fuel him as a player. And even though he doesn't have a formal college education, he has the general intelligence of at least the average college graduate and a ton of life reps few people have experienced.
Best of luck to him. Like I said earlier, I've always found him a compelling figure.
I don't recall him having much of an entourage unlike other successful prep-to-pro players: Garnett had a Vincent Chase-type group in his house in Minnesota (KG even put his childhood friend "Bug" in his Nike ad playing foosball against Brandi Chastain), and LeBron's inclusion of his Akron friends in all things LeBron, Inc. are well-documented. The narrative was his liked to break down video in his hotel room while on the road, and spend time with Vanessa and the kids at home. Not saying this is good or bad, though it probably means it's less like Kobe has sunk costs on his ledger like "seed money for his best friend from 8th grade open a nightclub" or similar horror stories of pro athletes squeezed by their pre-pro history.
So maybe he is done with the game directly. If Jerry Buss and Jerry West were still around maybe it would be different, but there sure seem to be some knuckleheads with decision-making power at Lakers headquarters right now. There is a competitive side to marketing that could give him the juice that helped fuel him as a player. And even though he doesn't have a formal college education, he has the general intelligence of at least the average college graduate and a ton of life reps few people have experienced.
Best of luck to him. Like I said earlier, I've always found him a compelling figure.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I just can't fathom Kobe as a NBA exec. Possibly part owner but never a coach and unlikely he'd be a GM.
I don't know why all these guys feel the need that they have to work or be successful at something else. I would think they would just want to spend the rest of the lives traveling the world and seeing places few humans have ever seen before. I think I would get a giant boat with a crew and a few bodyguards and go island hopping in the pacific.
I don't know why all these guys feel the need that they have to work or be successful at something else. I would think they would just want to spend the rest of the lives traveling the world and seeing places few humans have ever seen before. I think I would get a giant boat with a crew and a few bodyguards and go island hopping in the pacific.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Kobe doesn't fare as well in more modern statistics. 23rd in player efficiency. 18th in win shares. 55th in win shares per 48 minutes. 16th in VORP. 34th in box plus minus. 198th in true scoring percentage. 150th in offensive rating. Not in Top 250 for defensive rating. Not in Top 250 effective shooting percentage.
They were discussing him on national sports talk radio this morning and were taking the stance that he HAD to be in the all time Top 5 at any position I don't agree to that, but I guess many do
They were discussing him on national sports talk radio this morning and were taking the stance that he HAD to be in the all time Top 5 at any position I don't agree to that, but I guess many do
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
It's funny how a bunch of fat old white guys on a message board can point to all the numbers in the world on why Kobe sucks, yet every great player who's ever actually played the game at the NBA level gushes about the man.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just because I don't think Kobe is Top 5 of all time doesn't mean I think he sucks. Sure, the last couple of years he tailed off and probably hurt the Lakers' chances of winning. But overall he was a great player.
Kobe scored 60 in his last game, but players on both teams pretty much let him shoot at will. He had 60 points on 50 shots. The same night, Steph had 46 points on 24 shots. If the Warriors players and their opponents let Curry shoot 50 times in a game, he might have 100 points that night.
For as great as some people are making Kobe out to be (fans, players, coaches, and former players alike), Kobe was MVP one time and runner up one time in 20 seasons.
Looking at just guys from his era:
Shaq was MVP once and runner up twice.
Duncan was MVP twice and runner up twice.
Garnett was MVP once and runner up twice.
Nash was MVP twice and runner up once.
LeBron was MVP four times and runner up twice.
KD was MVP once and runner up 3 times.
Steph is likely going to be MVP in back-to-back seasons.
MVP balloting is not the end all of player evaluation, but Kobe didn't exactly light it up in terms of MVP consideration. People are wanting to but him in some rarefied air with the likes of:
Kareem (6 MVPs, 1 time runner up)
Michael (5 MVPs, 3 time runner up)
Wilt (4 MVP's, 2 time runner up)
Russell (5 MVPs, 2 time runner up)
Magic (3 MVPs, 2 time runner up)
Bird (3 MVPs, 4 time runner up)
Kobe was a Top 5 NBA player in probably half the years he played. I have no idea where that would slot him in the pantheon of all time players. If I had to guess for my rankings, I would probably say Top 20-25. Not sure that makes me a Kober hater.
Tau837
Footballguy
First off, there are a lot of sports talk radio personalities who are not very well informed on what they talk about. Most of them have surface level knowledge but nothing more than that.
Second, it is typical in the media that the player in question is discussed in isolation, i.e., is Kobe a top n all time player, or where does Kobe rank all time? That kind of open ended question tends to lead the media to overrate the player being discussed, for many reasons, including recency bias, proximity (e.g., being discussed in home market), not remembering all of the other great players at that moment, and the aforementioned lack of in depth knowledge.
This is easily seen in NFL HOF discussions. It is a much different question to ask if Hines Ward is a HOFer than to ask how he compares to all of his peers at all positions in his era. The former question is much more likely to result in people saying Ward is a HOFer than the latter question, and the latter question is actually the more relevant question.
ETA: I agree with your view that Kobe is not a top 5 all-time player. I voted 11-20 in the poll and expect I would slot him around 15th or so if I made a complete ranking.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
His drive, work ethic, ruthlessness, and, yes, selfishness may serve him very well in the business world. He's intellectually curious and pretty intelligent. I see him more as a behind the scenes guy than an up front and personal kind of guy like Magic. The only road block for him will be his own ego.
JMon348
Footballguy
I think we can all agree that FBG has taken a nose dive lately, at least in the NBA talk department.
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