Labor Dispute Master Thread (1 Viewer)

[Ksquared]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible. I'll try to be real, we have all negotiated something, something pretty serious I would assume. A house, a car, a boat, a CBA or whatever. We know the basic steps, each side has to give a little to come to a ideal solution and/or deal, that satisfies both parties. Someone here is most definitly doing that. The problem is even if they have been meeting 2 days, to make little progress when the main issues are just a few is dumb, just plain dumb. To me, someone is really holding this up, not a proposed deal or line or revenue split...someone...and my take is that person/people are NFLPA Lawyers.They are the ones who want this to drag out and go to court, no one else benefits from a deal not being reached soon.Just my take, feel free to disagree.ETA: I like watching people argue, reminds me of how dumb I looked when I use to do it.

I think the lawyers are the ones that will blow this up if it does not get done by July 15th. If you followed the events of the last three weeks, a lot of progress seemed to get done when the lawyers were not allowed in the room. What happened when Kessler and Pasch were in the marathon session on Thursday. They (or at least one of them) caused such a furor that the lawyers were told to stand down. That was where the "big problems" came from and semi-leaked by the conference call to the player reps. But it sounds like progress was made, it just took them to 1 AM. According to Albert Breer (which seems to be the one with the best sources) the lawyers were and are a major problem in the "lack of trust" from both sides. The basic agreement made on Thursday I believe is the players will get 47-48% of all NFL revenue after a $1 million expense cut off the top. All these numbers are still fluid, but this eliminates a couple of issues - no need to "look at the books", just a normal audited balance sheet is all that will be needed.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

This will get done at the last possible moment that will not threaten significant revenue realization.. What we're following at the moment is semantics.

 

[D.J.]

This will get done at the last possible moment that will not threaten significant revenue realization.. What we're following at the moment is semantics.

I agree. At this point the sides are going back and forth on issues that they have already figured out for the most part. Both sides are trying to push the other to a slightly better deal and will continue to do so until the last minute. Its really annoying to us fans, but I think in the long run, the two sides end up about where they were 2 weeks ago, probably around the end of next week. I think they are dragging it out longer, but I bet a lot of the paperwork is getting done in the interim. I wouldnt be surprised if these meetings witg goodell and smith are to get language on paper for the "non-issues" so that when the current issues are solved they will be able to file the paperwork to the courts a little faster

 

[JuSt CuZ]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible.

Thing is...big egos might be the thing that would prevent a deal from happening, but greed? Greed is exactly the reason this deal gets done. Been saying it since Day 1, there is way too much money on the table and too much financial pressure on both sides for this deal to fall through completely. Within two weeks, teams will start working with the new FA rules, and we'll all be breathing a big sigh of relief. Hang in there. You can thank greed once it's all settled.

For the most part I meant greed by the Lawyers.

 

[cobalt_27]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible.

Thing is...big egos might be the thing that would prevent a deal from happening, but greed? Greed is exactly the reason this deal gets done. Been saying it since Day 1, there is way too much money on the table and too much financial pressure on both sides for this deal to fall through completely. Within two weeks, teams will start working with the new FA rules, and we'll all be breathing a big sigh of relief. Hang in there. You can thank greed once it's all settled.

For the most part I meant greed by the Lawyers.

I wouldn't be terribly concerned about them. In the end, they are told what to do by the folks that hire them. If DeSmith/Players and Owners want to get a deal done, they'll get a deal done.

 

[JuSt CuZ]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.

The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible.

Thing is...big egos might be the thing that would prevent a deal from happening, but greed? Greed is exactly the reason this deal gets done. Been saying it since Day 1, there is way too much money on the table and too much financial pressure on both sides for this deal to fall through completely. Within two weeks, teams will start working with the new FA rules, and we'll all be breathing a big sigh of relief. Hang in there. You can thank greed once it's all settled.

For the most part I meant greed by the Lawyers.

I wouldn't be terribly concerned about them. In the end, they are told what to do by the folks that hire them. If DeSmith/Players and Owners want to get a deal done, they'll get a deal done.

No disrespect, but have you been paying attention to this at all? The lawyers are the problem, if they were not, they would not have been asked to leave even once.

 

[cobalt_27]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.

The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible.

Thing is...big egos might be the thing that would prevent a deal from happening, but greed? Greed is exactly the reason this deal gets done. Been saying it since Day 1, there is way too much money on the table and too much financial pressure on both sides for this deal to fall through completely. Within two weeks, teams will start working with the new FA rules, and we'll all be breathing a big sigh of relief. Hang in there. You can thank greed once it's all settled.

For the most part I meant greed by the Lawyers.

I wouldn't be terribly concerned about them. In the end, they are told what to do by the folks that hire them. If DeSmith/Players and Owners want to get a deal done, they'll get a deal done.

No disrespect, but have you been paying attention to this at all? The lawyers are the problem, if they were not, they would not have been asked to leave even once.

No disrespect at all because I think you're being a bit histrionic about the whole thing. They are doing the job they were hired to do, which essentially boils down to being a pain in the ### for the other side in order to get their clients the best deal possible. Once the clients ask them to "stand down" as it were, that's precisely what they'll do. I don't know. Maybe you've never hired an attorney and don't understand the dynamic. They know more about the law than you or I, but in the end, they are working for you. And, if they disagree enough, they'll recommend that you find a different attorney. But, that's rare. And, certainly not going to happen at this stage in the game with the CBA negotiations.

 

[JuSt CuZ]

the good thing is, that after talks broke down, they kept meeting well into the morning, and are back at it at 8am this morning.

The time for a deal is near and we need cooler heads to prevail

Don't matter how cool heads are, greed will always be the main factor in this, and thats why this is darn near impossible.

Thing is...big egos might be the thing that would prevent a deal from happening, but greed? Greed is exactly the reason this deal gets done. Been saying it since Day 1, there is way too much money on the table and too much financial pressure on both sides for this deal to fall through completely. Within two weeks, teams will start working with the new FA rules, and we'll all be breathing a big sigh of relief. Hang in there. You can thank greed once it's all settled.

For the most part I meant greed by the Lawyers.

I wouldn't be terribly concerned about them. In the end, they are told what to do by the folks that hire them. If DeSmith/Players and Owners want to get a deal done, they'll get a deal done.

No disrespect, but have you been paying attention to this at all? The lawyers are the problem, if they were not, they would not have been asked to leave even once.

No disrespect at all because I think you're being a bit histrionic about the whole thing. They are doing the job they were hired to do, which essentially boils down to being a pain in the ### for the other side in order to get their clients the best deal possible. Once the clients ask them to "stand down" as it were, that's precisely what they'll do. I don't know. Maybe you've never hired an attorney and don't understand the dynamic. They know more about the law than you or I, but in the end, they are working for you. And, if they disagree enough, they'll recommend that you find a different attorney. But, that's rare. And, certainly not going to happen at this stage in the game with the CBA negotiations.

If thats your opinion, your entitled to it, but anyone who disagrees with you seems to have an argument...and I'm not looking for that. Your opinion is not the only one, many respected writers even disagree with you, so maybe its just a sign that "who knows" what will happen. But lets all just hope for football to begin soon.Plus I seen this tweet from Greg Aiello ---

"Relax folks. Lawyers have been drafting potential CBA language for a while. Part of process. Point is work continues over the weekend."

Looks encouraging, notice the bolded, I thought they were taking the weekend off?

 

[Orange Crush]

Going back to the sales tax issue. It's yet another example of using the media to attack the other side (in this instance, the owners against the players).

Say a team has $300M in revenues, and $5M of that will end up being paid as taxes.

Now say the players and owners agree to a 45/55 split of "total revenue" so the players would get $135M and the owners $165M.

If the owners come back and say "of course the calculation has to be done after taxes are paid" then all the players are going to do is reply "fine, but the split will now have to be 45.75% / 54.25%." That way they still get their money.

By just focusing on total revenue without any cut-outs, it keeps the formula simple and minimizes the accounting costs.

 

[cobalt_27]

Going back to the sales tax issue. It's yet another example of using the media to attack the other side (in this instance, the owners against the players).Say a team has $300M in revenues, and $5M of that will end up being paid as taxes. Now say the players and owners agree to a 45/55 split of "total revenue" so the players would get $135M and the owners $165M. If the owners come back and say "of course the calculation has to be done after taxes are paid" then all the players are going to do is reply "fine, but the split will now have to be 45.75% / 54.25%." That way they still get their money.By just focusing on total revenue without any cut-outs, it keeps the formula simple and minimizes the accounting costs.

How did you conclude that the owners were using the media to attack the players on this issue?

 

[Hoosier16]

This makes me wonder if the players are serious about negotiating. The idea of including sales tax collected as part of league revenue is ridiculous. How can the players expect teams to pay out 48% of money the team simply collects for and remits to the goverment.

If it was counted before as part of the owners 'expense off the top' I agree with you. If it was counted as part of the overall revenue before, I don't.

Why would it matter how it was counted in the past? It's a ridiculous expectation.

Jesus H.Either it was counted as revenue for the purpose of the calculation previously, or it wasn't. I don't know which (though it certainly makes sense that it wasn't).The point was that there's a precedent here and it ought to be handled the same way.If the players are trying to weasel a share of that money when it wasn't counted as revenue before, I think they're nuts.If it was counted as part of the shared monies before and the owners are trying to chisel it out of the players now, I think they're nuts.Which is pretty much what I said the first time.Cobalt's ever-creative straw-man interpretation not withstanding.(ETA: Cobalt, I'm putting you on ignore for general nitwittery. So the last word here is yours, but I won't be reading it.)

I hope the people doing the negotiating don't share your view."If the formula was screwed up the first time, then we need to use the same screwed up formula again".

 

[renesauz]

Going back to the sales tax issue. It's yet another example of using the media to attack the other side (in this instance, the owners against the players).Say a team has $300M in revenues, and $5M of that will end up being paid as taxes. Now say the players and owners agree to a 45/55 split of "total revenue" so the players would get $135M and the owners $165M. If the owners come back and say "of course the calculation has to be done after taxes are paid" then all the players are going to do is reply "fine, but the split will now have to be 45.75% / 54.25%." That way they still get their money.By just focusing on total revenue without any cut-outs, it keeps the formula simple and minimizes the accounting costs.

While your explanation makes sense, sales tax in most businesses is NOT considered revenue. Total sales for any retail store is reported in pre-tax dollars, not post-tax....no idea why the NFL would be differant.

 

[Ksquared]

Going back to the sales tax issue. It's yet another example of using the media to attack the other side (in this instance, the owners against the players).Say a team has $300M in revenues, and $5M of that will end up being paid as taxes. Now say the players and owners agree to a 45/55 split of "total revenue" so the players would get $135M and the owners $165M. If the owners come back and say "of course the calculation has to be done after taxes are paid" then all the players are going to do is reply "fine, but the split will now have to be 45.75% / 54.25%." That way they still get their money.By just focusing on total revenue without any cut-outs, it keeps the formula simple and minimizes the accounting costs.

While your explanation makes sense, sales tax in most businesses is NOT considered revenue. Total sales for any retail store is reported in pre-tax dollars, not post-tax....no idea why the NFL would be differant.

I read one brief statement (I don't even remember where) in the last two days that stated Price Waterhouse Accountants screwed up one year in the past few by accidentally counting the pretax revenue to determine the numbers for the next years cap. I guess that is where the idea came from. But really - the owners wanted to control the costs more in the new CBA. Taxes go up all the time on things like tickets by local and state govt with no control by the owners. They would be complete idiots to include pretax dollars as the revenue total and I cannot imagine the players seriously considered this absurd idea.

 

[Tom Hagen]

Going back to the sales tax issue. It's yet another example of using the media to attack the other side (in this instance, the owners against the players).Say a team has $300M in revenues, and $5M of that will end up being paid as taxes. Now say the players and owners agree to a 45/55 split of "total revenue" so the players would get $135M and the owners $165M. useIf the owners come back and say "of course the calculation has to be done after taxes are paid" then all the players are going to do is reply "fine, but the split will now have to be 45.75% / 54.25%." That way they still get their money.By just focusing on total revenue without any cut-outs, it keeps the formula simple and minimizes the accounting costs.

While your explanation makes sense, sales tax in most businesses is NOT considered revenue. Total sales for any retail store is reported in pre-tax dollars, not post-tax....no idea why the NFL would be differant.

Sales tax is almost never included in revenue. It is a trust fund tax that the team has no rights to use. I have only ever seen the smallest of small business with minimal bookkeeping systems record sales tax as revenue and sales tax remitted as an offsetting expense. It sounds like PWC made a mistake and the players are trying to use it for leverage.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

 

[Cripster]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

Dee Smith had a legacy fund plan that the owners seemed willing to accept. Fund to benefit retirees. Basically a 50/50 split of cost. Players lawyers balked and said owners have to pay it all.Is the current mediation court ordered?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I have no idea where things stand now to be honest. Too many balls in the air.

 

[cobalt_27]

I have no idea where things stand now to be honest. Too many balls in the air.

Simple solution: pay the retirees with sales tax "revenues".I wouldn't too much about this.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

boo hoo. why do the retirees have any say? Im sorry you didnt make the money that current players do, but I dont think they deserve a spot at the negotiation table

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

boo hoo. why do the retirees have any say?

I suspect it's because the law says they do.

 

[Cripster]

Anything Nelson does will just get appealed to St Louis. Not sure if this will screw things up or not. Can the NFLPA settle their portion of the lawsuit apart from retirees.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Anything Nelson does will just get appealed to St Louis. Not sure if this will screw things up or not. Can the NFLPA settle their portion of the lawsuit apart from retirees.

I don't think so. Judge Nelson combined the suits IIRC. Could be wrong though.But I'd think that any further delays, appeals, setbacks and etc could really change the situation. If this stretches out another week without at least a handshake deal I think there's almost no chance there's an agreement before the courts rule.

 

[GregR_2]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

boo hoo. why do the retirees have any say? Im sorry you didnt make the money that current players do, but I dont think they deserve a spot at the negotiation table

The retirees have a lawsuit that was joined with the players anti-trust lawsuit. Then the players and owners are sent to the negotiating table, but the retirees are excluded. When there was a player's union, they were members and so the union represented their interests. Now, however, there is not a union, so no one is officially representing them in the court's current attempt to resolve the situation.Whether the retirees have any merit to a lawsuit in the first place is of course another question, but I think (as a non-lawyer) until/unless their lawsuit is thrown out based on that, they probably have a legitimate complaint.

 

[Cripster]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

boo hoo. why do the retirees have any say? Im sorry you didnt make the money that current players do, but I dont think they deserve a spot at the negotiation table

Why hasn't Boylan asked or demanded they be at the table? Just seems like a judge would have them present if it's lawful . Otherwise, he is just wasting everyones time. The retirees have a lawsuit that was joined with the players anti-trust lawsuit. Then the players and owners are sent to the negotiating table, but the retirees are excluded. When there was a player's union, they were members and so the union represented their interests. Now, however, there is not a union, so no one is officially representing them in the court's current attempt to resolve the situation.Whether the retirees have any merit to a lawsuit in the first place is of course another question, but I think (as a non-lawyer) until/unless their lawsuit is thrown out based on that, they probably have a legitimate complaint.

 

[cvnpoka]

Well, this could disrupt the current negotiations at a fairly sensitive moment...

MINNEAPOLIS — A group of retired NFL players has filed a complaint against the league and its current players, saying they have been excluded from the negotiation sessions taking place in an attempt to end the lockout.The retired players filed the suit in Minneapolis on Monday evening. They are asking U.S. District Judge Susan Richard Nelson to put a halt to the mediation she ordered and allow them to return to the bargaining table.The complaint also argues that because the current players have disbanded their union it is a violation of antitrust laws to bargain on behalf of the retired players. It accuses the current players and the owners are conspiring to push the retired players to the back burner while they negotiate to maximize their own profits.

boo hoo. why do the retirees have any say? Im sorry you didnt make the money that current players do, but I dont think they deserve a spot at the negotiation table

eh, retired players have a compelling argument that their careers have in part helped to create the current pay scale environment. whether that is applicable from a legal standpoint is worth pursuing.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

do they need approval of the veteran to get a CBA done?

 

[CalBear]

eh, retired players have a compelling argument that their careers have in part helped to create the current pay scale environment. whether that is applicable from a legal standpoint is worth pursuing.

Retirees have a right to whatever they've been promised (contractually) before. They don't have a right to get more money just because they (may) deserve it. So it comes down to whether the previous CBA promised retirees something that the new CBA doesn't (like a certain percentage of the revenues). They almost certainly don't have standing to dispute anything about the CBA which isn't related to players currently in the retirement system, and they don't have a right to demand a seat at the table.

 

[D.J.]

do they need approval of the veteran to get a CBA done?

I dont think that the cba will directly require retired approval, however it's up to the judge whether the retired needto approve a settlement. There has been done speculation that the judge will allow the players and owners to settle on their own and"figure"the retired player part out later.I have to think that the players and owners have a plan for this, considering they are negotiating with judge oversight. A deal is best for everyone, so if the players and owners can figure one out, I think the courts will make sure it happens in time for a full season

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

eh, retired players have a compelling argument that their careers have in part helped to create the current pay scale environment. whether that is applicable from a legal standpoint is worth pursuing.

Retirees have a right to whatever they've been promised (contractually) before. They don't have a right to get more money just because they (may) deserve it. So it comes down to whether the previous CBA promised retirees something that the new CBA doesn't (like a certain percentage of the revenues). They almost certainly don't have standing to dispute anything about the CBA which isn't related to players currently in the retirement system, and they don't have a right to demand a seat at the table.

are all your statements facts? or opinion?

 

[D.J.]

eh, retired players have a compelling argument that their careers have in part helped to create the current pay scale environment. whether that is applicable from a legal standpoint is worth pursuing.

Retirees have a right to whatever they've been promised (contractually) before. They don't have a right to get more money just because they (may) deserve it. So it comes down to whether the previous CBA promised retirees something that the new CBA doesn't (like a certain percentage of the revenues). They almost certainly don't have standing to dispute anything about the CBA which isn't related to players currently in the retirement system, and they don't have a right to demand a seat at the table.

are all your statements facts? or opinion?

I think in principle his statements are true, though the fact that the retirees' benefits were in the last cba probably gives them some legal standing to participate in these talks. However, I'm not sure that they would have much authority...i really dont think they will have enough power to stop a deal (unless its something crazy like not including anyyhing for.former players or drastically cutting benefits)

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I also think you can't rule out the possibility that this is orchestrated by the players to pile pressure onto the negotiations. Or, if they want to take their chances with the court ruling, to gum up the process and run the clock out.

Obviously no specific knowledge here, but the timing is interesting to say the least.

 

[dparker713]

I don't really see how the retirees have any say in the matter. If the union were to reform, they'd get no votes in the process. Individual plaintiffs settle all the time. The retirees basically seem to be in a position to get whatever the players and owners choose to give them.

 

[roarlions]

I also think you can't rule out the possibility that this is orchestrated by the players to pile pressure onto the negotiations. Or, if they want to take their chances with the court ruling, to gum up the process and run the clock out.Obviously no specific knowledge here, but the timing is interesting to say the least.

Same thought crossed my mind. Why would the retired players wait until a deal is nearly done before demanding a voice in the negotiations? If they should have been there all along, why wait until now to demand it?

 

[D.J.]

To me, the bigger issue here is that no one.but lawyers are talking until thursday...where is the urgency? The lawyers can talk in one Location while the players owners work through the rest of the issues somewhere else. The only good I see here is that maybe the sides think they are close enough to get a deal done pretty quickly once they start tslking.again...but.i thought that a few weeks ago...

 

[Ksquared]

Well this is why decertification of the Union was considered a "nuclear" option. Any group affected by the outcome of negotiations could file suit (although most have no standing) and have the courts decide the validity of their argument.

On top of this retired player suit (Carl Eller is the one the filed I believe)there are two other factions of retired players that do really agree with each other. I think until a new CBA is agreed upon, these other two groups could also file if they feel the Eller group's goals do not match theirs.

I have also read from several sources that seem close to the negotiations that if an agreement is not reached by July 15th the whole thing will blow up and wait for the court rulings. Forget all or most of the season potentially at that point. If the retirees halt the negotiations, like wdcrob said - the Union will likely just go the rest of the way on the legal front.

Welcome to the world of litigation.

 

[Ksquared]

To me, the bigger issue here is that no one.but lawyers are talking until thursday...where is the urgency? The lawyers can talk in one Location while the players owners work through the rest of the issues somewhere else. The only good I see here is that maybe the sides think they are close enough to get a deal done pretty quickly once they start tslking.again...but.i thought that a few weeks ago...

I know several sources over the weekend said both sides were working through the weekend (not what many in the MSM reported) on legal language for the agreement. This is going to be a 600-800 page document according to sources and after several owners on the last CBA said they were told one thing and later the language showed something else. I am not sure either side is ready to just vote for something without all the final language written this time. So it sounds like enough agreements were made late last week that the lawyers have been able to start righting a ton of the agreement up. How much more needs to be done? Who knows except those directly involved.

 

[Idiot Boxer]

This part has always been my fear. I think/hope it isn't going there, but holy ####, this is troubling...

http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/story/15290748/letter-to-de-smith-send-your-lawyers-packing

Owners believe -- and I think they're correct -- the two men want to delay a settlement as long as possible so they can propel the Brady antitrust lawsuit to the brink.

If this happened, an entire season would likely be lost and the sport plunged into chaos. Once that occurred, the players could push for an antitrust verdict in their favor that could reach billions. If this happened, the players would then own a part of the NFL. This is ultimately the dream scenario for Kessler and Quinn.

This would be good for Kessler and Quinn -- see: hours, billable -- but horrible for the NFL. A missed season would be a disaster.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

This part has always been my fear. I think/hope it isn't going there, but holy ####, this is troubling...

http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/story/15290748/letter-to-de-smith-send-your-lawyers-packing

Owners believe -- and I think they're correct -- the two men want to delay a settlement as long as possible so they can propel the Brady antitrust lawsuit to the brink.

If this happened, an entire season would likely be lost and the sport plunged into chaos. Once that occurred, the players could push for an antitrust verdict in their favor that could reach billions. If this happened, the players would then own a part of the NFL. This is ultimately the dream scenario for Kessler and Quinn.

This would be good for Kessler and Quinn -- see: hours, billable -- but horrible for the NFL. A missed season would be a disaster.

Of course the owners think the players lawyers are the issue. They are being paid to do what they do. The only reason to negotiate on the owner part is the nuclear option.Keep the lawyers in their place and all this will get worked out

 

[Idiot Boxer]

This part has always been my fear. I think/hope it isn't going there, but holy ####, this is troubling...

http://www.cbssports...lawyers-packing

Owners believe -- and I think they're correct -- the two men want to delay a settlement as long as possible so they can propel the Brady antitrust lawsuit to the brink.

If this happened, an entire season would likely be lost and the sport plunged into chaos. Once that occurred, the players could push for an antitrust verdict in their favor that could reach billions. If this happened, the players would then own a part of the NFL. This is ultimately the dream scenario for Kessler and Quinn.

This would be good for Kessler and Quinn -- see: hours, billable -- but horrible for the NFL. A missed season would be a disaster.

Of course the owners think the players lawyers are the issue. They are being paid to do what they do. The only reason to negotiate on the owner part is the nuclear option.Keep the lawyers in their place and all this will get worked out

I agree with that part. It concerns me though, when reporters who have been fairly pro player up until now cite concerns over player's lawyers 'going rogue'

 

[fatness]

Freeman later explains, accurately by the way, that the late Gene Upshaw knew how to handle Kessler. Upshaw would let Kessler do his thing until it approached the edge of problematic, and then Upshaw would push Kessler to the side and Upshaw would get a deal done. (For example, whenever Kessler would argue that, absent a union, the draft violates antitrust laws, Upshaw would essentially tell Kessler to put a sock in it.)

That’s precisely what De Smith needs to do now. Based on the positive feedback we’ve heard lately regarding the manner in which Smith has grown into the job and displayed leadership on the fly, there’s a good chance that will happen.

link

 

[JuSt CuZ]

If the lawyers, owners, and players can't figure it out, they should come to this thread, cuz everyone here has the answers.

Why do people keep arguing what this is about, or who is right or wrong?

Its about money for the owners, players, and retirees. The lawyers want money and the fame, so whats to discuss? lol. Once the lawyers get put in their place or go away, as in every instance of life, things will get solved. Until that moment, we just sit here and wait, while the media tries to find anything that looks like news to report.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Lawyers for the NFL and the players are meeting for two days to sort out paperwork that could speed the process in reaching a new labor contract.

“The owners will not open the doors without a signed document in place,” a person with knowledge of the talks told The Associated Press on Tuesday. “So this paperwork is important to get done” on Tuesday and Wednesday.

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MINNEAPOLIS, MN - MAY 17: NFL …

Getty Images - May 17, 3:26 pm EDT NFL Gallery The person spoke on condition of anonymity because a judge has directed that details of the court-ordered mediated negotiations not be disclosed.

The 1993 collective bargaining agreement was slowed by the volume of paperwork.

Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFLPA chief DeMaurice Smith were not at Tuesday’s meeting at a Manhattan law firm’s headquarters. On Thursday, Goodell and Smith will resume their meetings, with owners and players present. Those talks could last into the weekend if a new CBA appears imminent; the sides did not get together on weekends during negotiations over the last month.

“If things are really close, you could say working through the weekend is possible,” the person said. “But they would need to be really close. If not, they will probably take the weekend off and go back to work next week. But time is running out.”

Indeed, training camps for the Rams and Bears are scheduled to open in less than three weeks. Those teams are supposed to play in the Hall of Fame game on Aug. 7.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

NEW YORK -- The legal teams and staffs for NFL owners and players met for 7½ hours Tuesday in Manhattan, with the pace quickening and deadlines approaching as the lockout nears its fifth month.

Among the headliners were NFL Players Association outside counsel Jeffrey Kessler and general counsel Richard Berthelsen, and NFL outside counsel Bob Batterman and senior vice president of law and labor policy Adolpho Birch.

The parties filtered in before 10 a.m. ET and left in the 5 p.m. hour, with league officials staying behind and working into the early evening to prep for Wednesday's meeting, which will take on a similar format to Tuesday's session. The idea is clear away some of the underbrush, taking care of details and language in a potential agreement, so the path to a settlement will be more defined when the principles agree on larger issues.

Players, owners, NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell are scheduled to rejoin talks Thursday and Friday.

Time indeed is running short, and this set of discussions is crucial, following negotiations May 31-June 2 in suburban Chicago, June 7-8 on New York's Long Island, June 14-15 on Maryland's Eastern Shore, June 22-23 on Massachusetts' South Shore and June 27-July 1 in Minneapolis.

The widely held belief is that an agreement must be reached on or around July 15 to save the preseason in its natural form. The league projects the cancellation of the preseason would cost it nearly $1 billion in revenue, and although the players believe that figure is inflated, there's little question that significant dollars would be removed from the pie the parties have struggled to split. That in turn would affect the owners' offer to the players and could poison the negotiations.

Then there's the issue of rulings pending from U.S. Circuit Court Judge David Doty in the networks' rights-fees case and the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on the league's appeal of a lockout-lifting injunction. Lawyers involved in negotiations believe rulings and opinions in the cases have been finalized but that neither Doty nor the 8th Circuit judges, who previously implored the league and players to work out their differences themselves, want to issue them. The failure of talks, this line of thinking goes, could lead U.S. Magistrate Judge Arthur Boylan to inform the courts that negotiations have broken down and there's no need to wait.

If that's indeed Boylan's hammer, he has used it effectively, reining in the sides late last week and prompting major progress on the revenue split, the central issue in this entire dispute. In that time, many of the "fringe" demands -- deemed unacceptable by one side or the other -- fell off the table as well, clearing the way for more productive talks.

One remaining issue is retired players' benefits. The owners and players hadn't settled the funding for such benefits late last week, and a group of retired players -- led by Carl Eller -- filed a lawsuit in a Minneapolis court Monday seeking to halt the ongoing negotiations and keep the active players from representing them in that setting.

 

[JuSt CuZ]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

 

[D.J.]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

 

[Cripster]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

I think the drop dead date is closer to 7-15-11.

 

[D.J.]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

I think the drop dead date is closer to 7-15-11.

I have heard that as well. I was just pulling the info from what Clayton said in the above article. For what its worth, a few weeks ago when the 15th was becoming the popular drop dead date, that was usually stated as the day the new season would need to start (i.e. the cba would need to be signed). I think clayton is more indicating the "handshake deal" would.need to be done this weekend to give time for the courts to approve, owners to vote, players to reform as a union, ect. by the 15th. Thats a lot to do in a short time, and it assumes that the lawyers are making a lot of progress this week in getting the language done

 

[dparker713]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

I think the drop dead date is closer to 7-15-11.

I have heard that as well. I was just pulling the info from what Clayton said in the above article. For what its worth, a few weeks ago when the 15th was becoming the popular drop dead date, that was usually stated as the day the new season would need to start (i.e. the cba would need to be signed). I think clayton is more indicating the "handshake deal" would.need to be done this weekend to give time for the courts to approve, owners to vote, players to reform as a union, ect. by the 15th. Thats a lot to do in a short time, and it assumes that the lawyers are making a lot of progress this week in getting the language done

There is plenty of negotiating being done right now, its just being done by the lawyers.

 

[D.J.]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

I think the drop dead date is closer to 7-15-11.

I have heard that as well. I was just pulling the info from what Clayton said in the above article. For what its worth, a few weeks ago when the 15th was becoming the popular drop dead date, that was usually stated as the day the new season would need to start (i.e. the cba would need to be signed). I think clayton is more indicating the "handshake deal" would.need to be done this weekend to give time for the courts to approve, owners to vote, players to reform as a union, ect. by the 15th. Thats a lot to do in a short time, and it assumes that the lawyers are making a lot of progress this week in getting the language done

There is plenty of negotiating being done right now, its just being done by the lawyers.

while what they are doing is important, they cannot negotiate the "open issues." I'm not trying to be negative, I am just concerned that the owners and players are not trying to hammer out the last few issues and that they are waiting until the 11th hour and 50th minute when they probably have 9 minutes (to go with the analogy) of actual work to do. One hiccup could make things tough.

 

[dparker713]

ESPNs John Clayton on NFL lockout: "I'm hearing a lot of good things", heres the link but I posted below - http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=384&sid=509403

By Jacob Thorpe, special to 710sports.com

Fans may not have to wait much longer for real NFL news, at least that's what "The Professor" John Clayton thinks.

Clayton came on the Kevin Calabro Show Tuesday for his daily dose of Coors Light Cold Hard Facts and said some encouraging developments may all but ensure that the NFL season will start on time.

"I'm hearing a lot of good things," Clayton said. "It looked pretty grim last Thursday, and then they go into Thursday's meeting and Arthur Boylan - who's been mediating this thing - kind of kicked them in the rear, the owners, and said, 'Guys, let's focus here because remember we've got a lot of decisions coming and you're not going to like them if we have to make these decisions in court.'"

Clayton explained that during the meeting the owners agreed to give the players 46 percent of all revenues, which is inching closer to the players' demand of 48 percent. He said that they've effectively come to terms on free agency, the rookie wage scale and that the owners are no longer asking for an 18-game season.

"They're down to the deadline," Clayton explained. "They're down to, you pick a day [either] Friday, Saturday or Sunday. And if they don't get it done by then, then this thing probably isn't going to get done and it's going to start costing revenue, costing games, costing prestige and that's why I think you're close enough now to close the gap and get this thing done."

Clayton also took time to address rumors that the Seahawks have offered Philadelphia a 1st and 3rd-round pick for quarterback Kevin Kolb, a rumor that Clayton promptly dismissed.

"It would be too pro-Philadelphia," Clayton said. "I just don't see a 1st and a 3rd right now because there's not enough teams bidding."

I just cant believe that if the drop dead date is this weekend they arent negotiating until tomorrow. That just seems crazy to me. Unless they know that they only have to settle on the revenue.and maybe one other thing. Maybe they know they ate going to spend most of the time reviewing the lawyers work? I dont know, but if they do.still have several open issues, it scares me that they are waiting until tomorrow to meet. One misstep that delays talks could spiral into a lost season

I think the drop dead date is closer to 7-15-11.

I have heard that as well. I was just pulling the info from what Clayton said in the above article. For what its worth, a few weeks ago when the 15th was becoming the popular drop dead date, that was usually stated as the day the new season would need to start (i.e. the cba would need to be signed). I think clayton is more indicating the "handshake deal" would.need to be done this weekend to give time for the courts to approve, owners to vote, players to reform as a union, ect. by the 15th. Thats a lot to do in a short time, and it assumes that the lawyers are making a lot of progress this week in getting the language done

There is plenty of negotiating being done right now, its just being done by the lawyers.

while what they are doing is important, they cannot negotiate the "open issues." I'm not trying to be negative, I am just concerned that the owners and players are not trying to hammer out the last few issues and that they are waiting until the 11th hour and 50th minute when they probably have 9 minutes (to go with the analogy) of actual work to do. One hiccup could make things tough.

But there's plenty the lawyers are doing right now that if left to the deadline could delay any deal. The handshake agreement isnt the end point, its a signed document between a players union and the NFL.