fatness
Footballguy
You're right. The fans are a big problem for the owners.
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Labor Dispute Master Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Da Guru
- Start date
CalBear
Footballguy
Let me put it another way: Was Haynesworth more valuable than Suh in 2010? Was Haynesworth more valuable than Pat Williams? If you start with the assumption that every contract should be a 100% accurate point-in-time assessment of the relative value of players, you will always be able to find players who are "overpaid" or "underpaid." Does Haynesworth's contract represent a problem that needs to be fixed in the system? A veteran salary scale to keep owners from paying veterans more than they're really worth?Rookies are significantly disadvantaged compared to veterans in contract negotiations, because rookies can only negotiate with one team. Haynesworth just needed to find one owner willing to pay him a ridiculous amount; 31 owners might think the deal is stupid, but it still got done.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The owners have only themselves to blame for a system with so many flaws that they have to collectively bargain restraints on themselves. They have sole rights to a kid who isn't going to walk away, yet they overpay him to avoid the wrath of the fans. Owners must be cowards. Fans will forgive any strategic move as long as it results in winning.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
If you don't like long-held conventional thinking challenged, then it's been the wrong place for you.
coolnerd
Footballguy
Overall, this has been one of the more amazing threads in the shark pool. At times, it has been absolutely brilliant other times degenerated into FFAlike red state versus blue state "I have all the answers" overposting. The very best and worst of threads at the same time.
Man, I have to disagree. I think there have been some really good signs coming out today. Rotoworld is saying a deal in principle may.be done by friday. It seems (nearly) certain that a deal gets done for the meeting with boylan next week. I know the.media.has been wrong before, but brees even said it was.close today, hell the lawyers gave indication that things looked good yesterday. And, when they are saying it could be days away, its hard to.believe they are all THAT wrong.
Multiple Scores
Footballguy
Overall, it has been a tremendous thread, but it has become awful the past week!
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
It was the best of threads, it was the blurst of threads.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
It has severely devolved from what it once was, and that was nothing too great to begin with.
Addai's Adidas
Footballguy
So tomorrow is the 15th. If no deal is reached, what happens?
GregR_2
Footballguy
According to John Clayton here's a look into what went on yesterday (Wednesday) on the rookie cap:
Both sides agreed on 4 year deals with a team option for a 5th year.
Owners wanted a $4m salary for the 5th year.
Players wanted a top 10 salary at the position for the top 16 picks and proposed a top 15 salary for picks 17 through 32.
Owners offered to pay the top 10 picks a top 10 salary at their positions in their fifth year, and have the remaining first-round picks make 150 percent of what starters make at their positions with a possible salary floor of $4 million and a salary ceiling of $12 million.
Players rejected the salary for the rest of the first round picks.
Both sides agreed on 4 year deals with a team option for a 5th year.
Owners wanted a $4m salary for the 5th year.
Players wanted a top 10 salary at the position for the top 16 picks and proposed a top 15 salary for picks 17 through 32.
Owners offered to pay the top 10 picks a top 10 salary at their positions in their fifth year, and have the remaining first-round picks make 150 percent of what starters make at their positions with a possible salary floor of $4 million and a salary ceiling of $12 million.
Players rejected the salary for the rest of the first round picks.
No details yet, but breer and sheftner both reporting that rookie wage scale is agreed on
werdnoynek
Footballguy
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werdnoynek
Footballguy
hopefully they'll come to some sort of un-official agreement in the next couple of days (if they work the weekend??) and then make it official next week with boylan. i pray to everything holy theres no more contradicting reports and this thing gets done next week.
according to schefter deal is done on rookie wage scale
but there is workman's comp, free agency rules, legal procedures left
according to schefter deal is done on rookie wage scale
but there is workman's comp, free agency rules, legal procedures left
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UnknownCoach
Footballguy
It looks like the free agent rules is the biggest sticking point remaining.
Unfortunately the players all want to live in Miami and nobody wants to live in Detroit. They all want to play for a contender and nobody wants to play for a rebuilding team.
I think any change in free agency will be minor. Neither side will ever be happy with the terms of free agency. Both sides make enough money to live with it.
Unfortunately the players all want to live in Miami and nobody wants to live in Detroit. They all want to play for a contender and nobody wants to play for a rebuilding team.
I think any change in free agency will be minor. Neither side will ever be happy with the terms of free agency. Both sides make enough money to live with it.
coolnerd
Footballguy
Did I lapse into an NBA thread?
Seriously though, more than enough players will go where there is some combination of starting job and good money over really a cool city to live. There will be more than enough movement for teams that know what they are doing. If the rumors of narrowing the gap betwen the salary cap floor and ceiling are true, if anything there will be more mediocrity errrr parity not less.UnknownCoach
Footballguy
If the salary cap by itself was enough, the NFL wouldnt need the draft. Players wouldnt call themselves slaves and owners wouldnt be so worried about restricting player movement. That's not the reality though. Its not only about where's "cool". Its about state taxes, local weather, and quality of life.'coolnerd said:Did I lapse into an NBA thread?
miami isn't exactly the most coveted nfl team to play for...i dont think this plays as big of a roll in the nfl as it does in, say, the nba. on anotger note, I dont really like the franchise tag and I think that it needs to be difficult to use. The point of the tag was to keep the face of your franchise from bolting. These days it is being used on lower tiered players. Vjax is a great player, but he certainly isnt the face of the chargers type.player. The tag should be designed so san diego wouldnt want to use it unless it was to keep Rivers.If the salary cap by itself was enough, the NFL wouldnt need the draft. Players wouldnt call themselves slaves and owners wouldnt be so worried about restricting player movement. That's not the reality though. Its not only about where's "cool". Its about state taxes, local weather, and quality of life.'coolnerd said:Did I lapse into an NBA thread?
Curious about how the free agents are going to end up working out. Anyone think the owners are going to get their right of first refusal?
It sounds like they won.with the rookie wage scale, they appear to be winning on the judicial oversight (i think anything that eliminates the courts is a win for the owners, I really like the idea of a panel of former judges that can handle any dispute). I hope the players get this one, I love watching to see where the big name free agents.land
It sounds like they won.with the rookie wage scale, they appear to be winning on the judicial oversight (i think anything that eliminates the courts is a win for the owners, I really like the idea of a panel of former judges that can handle any dispute). I hope the players get this one, I love watching to see where the big name free agents.land
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
It sounds like the players got an independent review of league disciplinary actions in return for giving up court oversight of the CBA. I think that's a nutty trade, but then I'm not a wife-beating, dope-smoking, drunk-driving, head-hunting, rain-making, gun-toting NFL player either.It also sounds like the owners may get a few days to negotiate with their own FAs before the feeding frenzy starts, but won't have right of first refusal.
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Clifford
Footballguy
How is that even mathematically possible? Look at this year's draft. 4 QBs taken in the top 16. So all four of those players should be paid top ten money at the QB position?I can't find the list of top QB salaries but the thought that Newton, Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder should all be paid top 10 nfl salaries at QB is absolutely ludicrous. None of them are worth that. Hell, put together they are probably not worth one top 10 QB salary.'GregR said:
No wonder these negotiations have lasted so long.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
As I understand it, the first four years would be governed by a rigid salary cap. And the owners would have the right to option the player for a 5th year. The discussion has been about how much they'd have to pay that 5th year player if the option were exercised.
The owners wanted a fixed salary structure - similar to the first four years. The players are saying it should operate similar to the current franchise tag - where the 5th year player would be paid the average of the top 10 players at his position (for early 1st rounders) or top 15 at his position (for later first rounders).
So the player only gets the fifth year and the high salary that goes with it if the team wants him to receive it.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
That's how I understand it, as well. Option to the club if they want that 5th year, but it acts like the franchise tag. Any idea if, at the end of 4 years and this tag is not applied, do they become UFAs or RFAs? I haven't heard this discussed, yet.
I love this plan, by the way. Lost in all of this is that the new system, to me anyway, looks far superior to what we had before and certainly is better than playing under conditions that would have been laid out subsequent to Judge Nelson's ruling. We have a rookie salary structure, which is great. Players get free agency after 4 years, which is great (5 years, but they get a good loot in the 5th year), the revenue sharing seems equitable. Looks like judicial oversight will be more fair and balanced with a 3-panel judge, if that's what winds up being devised (no more commissioner overseeing his own rulings). Stable football relations for 7 years.
I'd say this is a damn good exchange for 3-4 months of angst during a time in the season that had minimal impact.
Catbird
Footballguy
Sounds like. Owners would be able to get the fifth year, but they are going to have to pay the guy big money to get it. Or they can let him become a FA and negotiate with him. Its really a fifth year for guys who turn out to be superstars.
An interesting thing I hadn't thought about is that there won't be much need for rookies to have agents, at least to negotiate salaries before year 5 or 6, which seems to be the agents' most important role. I guess the rooks can include that savings as an increased return on their salaries? I imagine there are more than a few agents who wish they'd had a seat in these negotiations.
Am I understanding correctly that there would be a draft-spot-by-draft-spot percentage of the overall league revenue which the player drafted there gets paid, or would there be a set wage scale regardless of revenue? Or else how would the salaries of the guy picked 2.4 differ from the guy picked 2.5? I guess there won't be a QB bonus as agents have argued for over the last decade or so and often wrangled? Lots of interesting changes and twists to unravel once we get the facts.
Edit to add: I guess too that it means all rookies will be in for off-season drills and at camp without negotiation barriers. That will change the rookie landscape and make them significantly more valuable.
An interesting thing I hadn't thought about is that there won't be much need for rookies to have agents, at least to negotiate salaries before year 5 or 6, which seems to be the agents' most important role. I guess the rooks can include that savings as an increased return on their salaries? I imagine there are more than a few agents who wish they'd had a seat in these negotiations.
Am I understanding correctly that there would be a draft-spot-by-draft-spot percentage of the overall league revenue which the player drafted there gets paid, or would there be a set wage scale regardless of revenue? Or else how would the salaries of the guy picked 2.4 differ from the guy picked 2.5? I guess there won't be a QB bonus as agents have argued for over the last decade or so and often wrangled? Lots of interesting changes and twists to unravel once we get the facts.
Edit to add: I guess too that it means all rookies will be in for off-season drills and at camp without negotiation barriers. That will change the rookie landscape and make them significantly more valuable.
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I dont think there will actually be a wage scale. Rookies will still be able to negotiate their contract, but there will be a cap (i havent seen any details on the cap).Also, I imagine we wont see this new "tag" used very often. This big win for the players in this is that the price tag for that 5th year option is so high that the teams are going to start negotiating extensions earlier in players careers. If a guy is looking to be a star after 3 years, the team will lock him up long term using the option only if they cant come to terms with a new deal. If a guy is very good but not a star, the team will try to get an extension done so they dont get put in a position of them being a ufa or having to give them top 10 money for a year.I love the setup, I hope it works.
I agree. So most players will hit free agency after 4 years. Those retained will be paid a figure not unlike the franchise tag now. IE: Most rookies come out AHEAD with this new cap.
I suspect top rookies will still want/need agents to handle other stuff (agents set up marketing deals too!) Agents may have to settle for a lower % for rookies outside the 1st round though.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Thought this was interesting:
I was just reading that. Very interesting. I imagine this gave the owners some extra incentive to get the deal done, and makes.it even more likely that a deal gets done very soon.
Yeah, Agents would still be heavily needed pre-draft. I have no doubt they are the ones that set these guys up with workout facilities/trainers, preparation for the combine, promoting their players, setting up/getting ready for private workouts with teams, etc. Considering so many players that bust and don't see big 2nd contracts, it will be more important than ever to get drafted in as early a slot as possible if there is a more rigid pay scale and less money on a player's first deal.Hopefully it does mean more easily negotiated rookie contracts and fewer holdouts though.
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They will still need.agents to negotiate their rookie contract. if I understand correctly, its not a hard scale. It just has a cap. Moat rookies wont get the cap.
Multiple Scores
Footballguy
Word is Goodell wants a full day today and a done deal tonight. Fingers crossed it's done tonight.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Hitler video re: CBA Negotiations.
Hialrious. It was made by the vikings punter (thus the "please dont fine me" at the end
steelcitysledgehammers
Footballguy
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Yeah. That's what he said.
Twitter comments:
Adam Schefter
Progress made but no agreement in principle will be reached tonight. Talks between NFL/NFLPA done for day. Lawyers will continue talking.
Albert Breer
re-tweet by JasonLaCanfora
DeMaurice Smith says he and Roger Goodell will either meet or talk through the weekend as well.
Jason La Canfora
they will talk via conference calls and the lawyers will continue to work through the various legal issues still ahead.
Jason La Canfora
So as we reported this morning, face-to-face talks end in NY, pick up next week. Sides put out joint statement on constructive talks ...
Jason La Canfora
Continue to hear NFLPA expects players who had 2011 workout bonuses to be paid in full. Sides have not reached closure on the issue yet.
Adam Schefter
Progress made but no agreement in principle will be reached tonight. Talks between NFL/NFLPA done for day. Lawyers will continue talking.
Albert Breer
re-tweet by JasonLaCanfora
DeMaurice Smith says he and Roger Goodell will either meet or talk through the weekend as well.
Jason La Canfora
they will talk via conference calls and the lawyers will continue to work through the various legal issues still ahead.
Jason La Canfora
So as we reported this morning, face-to-face talks end in NY, pick up next week. Sides put out joint statement on constructive talks ...
Jason La Canfora
Continue to hear NFLPA expects players who had 2011 workout bonuses to be paid in full. Sides have not reached closure on the issue yet.
Dickie Dunn
Footballguy
@Albert Breer
As we reported on Total Access, after two furious days of talk, agreement in principle expected early next week. Nearly nothing in the way.
As we reported on Total Access, after two furious days of talk, agreement in principle expected early next week. Nearly nothing in the way.
This may sound stupid, but I would love for someone close to the situation to write a book on the events leading up to an eventual CBA next week. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but it would be wild to hear some of the stories that went on behind the scenes.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
More good news...
Instinctive
Footballguy
With the new minimum spending, does anyone else think a couple free agents are going to get a MASSIVE amount of money from teams like Cincy or Tampa this year? They are literally $50 million below the minimum and have pretty complete teams still...especially Tampa.
I don't think Cincy will spend a massive amount on anyone. They will likely wait until the top FAs have signed and then proceed to overpay again for a 2nd rate guy, like they did with Bryant last year and Coles the year before. Hopefully Cincy will use the money to sign their own guys like Joseph and Hall.I've heard Washington is well under the proposed cap also. With their FA spending history, I can see them overspending massively on one guy.
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