Late term abortions (1 Viewer)

[adonis]

Who's saying I don't. You're comparing something that may not be prevented, to something that can. That's the difference.

If you are okay with taking a child's life in the womb, why do you care if they die outside of it?

Legislation could be enacted to prevent women from having more kids if they've had, say, 3 miscarriages.  There could be criminal penalties if the woman has more.

You could make pregnancy tests harder to come by, where the woman has to go to a doctor to get the results, and at that point, the records are kept on how many pregnancies a woman has, and if she kills more than X number of babies, she's up for criminal consequences.  I mean seriously...if a child's life is at stake, you'd have to take actions to protect them right?

And i'm serious, but wouldn't you have to see a mother who has had multiple miscarriages as some type of serial killer?  Perhaps one who did it accidentally, but if all life is sacred, and fertilized eggs are babies, and abortions are baby murders...then why aren't miscarriages examples of involuntary manslaughter at the least?

 

[NREC34]

Don’t have sex unless you’re trying for pregnancy, guys. It’s really that simple. Problem solved. 

 

[KCitons]

Legislation could be enacted to prevent women from having more kids if they've had, say, 3 miscarriages.  There could be criminal penalties if the woman has more.

You could make pregnancy tests harder to come by, where the woman has to go to a doctor to get the results, and at that point, the records are kept on how many pregnancies a woman has, and if she kills more than X number of babies, she's up for criminal consequences.  I mean seriously...if a child's life is at stake, you'd have to take actions to protect them right?

And i'm serious, but wouldn't you have to see a mother who has had multiple miscarriages as some type of serial killer?  Perhaps one who did it accidentally, but if all life is sacred, and fertilized eggs are babies, and abortions are baby murders...then why aren't miscarriages examples of involuntary manslaughter at the least?

Intent. 

That's the difference.

 

[KCitons]

Don’t have sex unless you’re trying for pregnancy, guys. It’s really that simple. Problem solved. 

Then don't have sex. Or make sure you use every birth control available.

Take responsibility for your own actions. Seems simple.

 

[adonis]

Intent. 

That's the difference.

So a woman who killed 10 babies by having 10 miscarriages is fine because she didn't mean to do it?

Why is that the case for unborn babies, but once they're born, it's considered neglect or some other criminal action because a baby was killed?

Also, this concept inevitably results in looking at almost every single childbearing woman and being able to reasonably consider her someone who has participated in the killing of a baby, as most women suffer at least 1 miscarriage.  You can help them understand your view by saying you're sure it was unintentional, but it's an odd position to be in.

 

[KCitons]

So a woman who killed 10 babies is fine because she didn't mean to do it?

Why is that the case for unborn babies, but once they're born, it's considered neglect or some other criminal action because a baby was killed?

Intent.

I can't make it any clearer. This isn't China, where we limit the number of children. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Then don't have sex. Or make sure you use every birth control available.

Take responsibility for your own actions. Seems simple.

So tubes tied, vasectomy, the pill, condom, IUD, any anything else I can think of have to be used at the same time? 

 

[adonis]

Intent.

I can't make it any clearer. This isn't China, where we limit the number of children. 

So the sanctity of a baby's life depends on the intent of the parents?

 

[KCitons]

So tubes tied, vasectomy, the pill, condom, IUD, any anything else I can think of have to be used at the same time? 

The effectiveness of using none is a lot worst.

 

[KCitons]

So the sanctity of a baby's life depends on the intent of the parents?

When it comes to miscarriages. Yes. I already said that their should be a medical person involved at some point during a miscarriage.

 

[adonis]

So the sanctity of a baby's life depends on the intent of the parents?

When it comes to miscarriages. Yes. I already said that their should be a medical person involved at some point during a miscarriage.

So a baby's life matters, or doesn't matter, based on the feelings of the parent?

 

[KCitons]

So a baby's life matters, or doesn't matter, based on the feelings of the parent?

The baby's life matters based on miscarriage (unintentional) and abortion (intentional). 

 

[adonis]

So a baby's life matters, or doesn't matter, based on the feelings of the parent?

The baby's life matters based on miscarriage (unintentional) and abortion (intentional). 

So a baby's life is sacred and it's murder, if the parents don't want the kid and seek an abortion...but the baby's life isn't sacred and it's not a killing of a sacred life if the parents really want it and there's an accidental miscarriage?

 

[KarmaPolice]

The effectiveness of using none is a lot worst.

The effectiveness of using any of the ones listed isn't 100%.   I just can't get behind this abstinence line of reasoning.  

 

[KCitons]

So a baby's life is sacred and it's murder, if the parents don't want the kid and seek an abortion...but the baby's life doesn't matter if the parents really want it and there's an accidental miscarriage?

Let me correct myself. The baby's life is sacred either way. Intent is the only difference.

This is actually the reason I left the Catholic church. The idea of limbo for children that had not been baptized before death, was the straw that broke the camels back. 

 

[KCitons]

The effectiveness of using any of the ones listed isn't 100%.   I just can't get behind this abstinence line of reasoning.  

But you can get behind the idea of abortion?

 

[adonis]

So a baby's life is sacred and it's murder, if the parents don't want the kid and seek an abortion...but the baby's life doesn't matter if the parents really want it and there's an accidental miscarriage?

Let me correct myself. The baby's life is sacred either way. Intent is the only difference.

This is actually the reason I left the Catholic church. The idea of limbo for children that had not been baptized before death, was the straw that broke the camels back. 

If it's sacred either way, then the harm done to the baby is the same whether there's an abortion or a miscarriage.  Folks like yourself should be out there trying to prevent miscarriages at a much higher rate than abortions, because those numbers are INCREDIBLY high in terms of the results of dead babies.

In fact, one could say that a bigger harm is done by a woman having repeated miscarriages than a woman having a single abortion.  Would you agree with that, in terms purely of loss of sacred human life?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

But you can get behind the idea of abortion?

Isn’t that the whole thing we’re talking about?

 

[KarmaPolice]

But you can get behind the idea of abortion?

Personally, I couldn't choose that option unless it was wife's life on the line.   But I am not willing to tell others what to do and deny them the choice.  

 

[KCitons]

Isn’t that the whole thing we’re talking about?

Not sure if you missed sex ed class in high school. What is the leading cause of abortions?

 

[KCitons]

Personally, I couldn't choose that option unless it was wife's life on the line.   But I am not willing to tell others what to do and deny them the choice.  

But you will with everything else. (like guns)

 

[adonis]

Not sure if you missed sex ed class in high school. What is the leading cause of abortions?

A lack of desire or willingness or ability to have a baby.

 

[KCitons]

If it's sacred either way, then the harm done to the baby is the same whether there's an abortion or a miscarriage.  Folks like yourself should be out there trying to prevent miscarriages at a much higher rate than abortions, because those numbers are INCREDIBLY high in terms of the results of dead babies.

In fact, one could say that a bigger harm is done by a woman having repeated miscarriages than a woman having a single abortion.  Would you agree with that, in terms purely of loss of sacred human life?

Intent. 

That's the difference. If you can't wrap your head around that. Then we are just going to continue to go in circles.

 

[KCitons]

A lack of desire or willingness or ability to have a baby.

Immaculate conception?

 

[joffer]

ruins another thread

 

[KCitons]

ruins another thread

Care to say who? 

Or is this just another one of your drive by trollings?

 

[adonis]

Intent. 

That's the difference. If you can't wrap your head around that. Then we are just going to continue to go in circles.

I can't wrap my head around having conditional valuation of human life based on the feelings of the parent.

Life matters, or it doesn't.  The feelings of the parents are immaterial.

If it's murdering a baby to abort a fetus, then a baby is being killed when there's a miscarriage.

If you care about babies lives, the number of miscarriages are far higher than the number of abortions.  Focus your efforts on preventing miscarriages and you'll be saving more babies than by focusing on abortions.  If human life is what you cared most about preserving, this would be a rational approach.

 

[KCitons]

I can't wrap my head around having conditional valuation of human life based on the feelings of the parent.

Life matters, or it doesn't.  The feelings of the parents are immaterial.

If it's murdering a baby to abort a fetus, then a baby is being killed when there's a miscarriage.

If you care about babies lives, the number of miscarriages are far higher than the number of abortions.  Focus your efforts on preventing miscarriages and you'll be saving more babies than by focusing on abortions.  If human life is what you cared most about preserving, this would be a rational approach.

The same can be said if you apply it to anything. If you don't care about an unborn child, then why care about immigrants, or people being killed with guns? 

Intent is still the guiding principle.

 

[NREC34]

The same can be said if you apply it to anything. If you don't care about an unborn child, then why care about immigrants, or people being killed with guns? 

Intent is still the guiding principle.

Because I’d rather not be one of them. 

 

[adonis]

The same can be said if you apply it to anything. If you don't care about an unborn child, then why care about immigrants, or people being killed with guns? 

Intent is still the guiding principle.

My value framework doesn't refer to 10 week old embryo's as "unborn children".  I don't call abortions at this stage murders, nor do I have any issues with miscarriages as being the killing of unborn babies akin to abortions, but unintentional.

Believing that life begins at conception, that life is sacred at that point on, is what causes the confusion and intellectual contortions.

Your view of life requires you to have a flexible valuation of the same dead baby/embyro, that pivots based on how the parents felt about it.  That's incredibly odd.

Imagine a 2 year old baby who died, and the police come to investigate, and they determine whether it was murder or something else based on whether the parents wanted the child or not.

 

[KCitons]

Because I’d rather not be one of them. 

Did anyone ask an unborn child what they want?

 

[KCitons]

My value framework doesn't refer to 10 week old embryo's as "unborn children".  I don't call abortions at this stage murders, nor do I have any issues with miscarriages as being the killing of unborn babies akin to abortions, but unintentional.

Believing that life begins at conception, that life is sacred at that point on, is what causes the confusion and intellectual contortions.

And why I said, two pages ago, that we are never going to gain anything from this discussion. We have a difference in fundamental belief.

 

[adonis]

And why I said, two pages ago, that we are never going to gain anything from this discussion. We have a difference in fundamental belief.

It's not the difference in fundamental belief that's the issue.

It's that you have a conditional valuation of human life that depends on the disposition of the parents to the baby.  

 

[NREC34]

Did anyone ask an unborn child what they want?

Nope. And they’ll never know what it means to be born or alive either. 

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

“This is the thread where a bunch of middle aged guys think they get to decide things for other people. Please be excellent to each another, and most of all no whining.”

 

[adonis]

Did anyone ask an unborn child what they want?

I'm sure someone has.  But because the unborn child at 2 weeks doesn't have ears, a brain, a nervous system, a heart, or anything else...they're unlikely to get an answer .

 

[KCitons]

Nope. And they’ll never know what it means to be born or alive either. 

I don't have to live with your conscience. You do. 

 

[KCitons]

I'm sure someone has.  But because the unborn child at 2 weeks doesn't have ears, a brain, a nervous system, a heart, or anything else...they're unlikely to get an answer .

I don't have to live with your conscience. You do. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

But you will with everything else. (like guns)

No, not like everything else.   My line is usually drawn when I think there is a negative effect on society as a whole.  

 

[NREC34]

I don't have to live with your conscience. You do. 

That’s right. You must think people that opt for abortion are eager to and happy about it and have no mental issues from doing it. I bet most probably do. 

 

[KCitons]

That’s right. You must think people that opt for abortion are eager to and happy about it and have no mental issues from doing it. I bet most probably do. 

And if they could go back and change one thing about it, what do you think that would be?

 

[KCitons]

No, not like everything else.   My line is usually drawn when I think there is a negative effect on society as a whole.  

Do you think having sex with the safety net of abortions is a positive on society as a whole?

 

[adonis]

And that's fine.  All I've been doing is taking your position and asking questions about its implication in other areas outside of abortion.

You've said, roughly, that a baby's death matters if the parents don't want it, and doesn't matter if the parents do want it...roughly.  You seem comfortable holding such an odd position.  If I found myself saying that I held such an opinion, it would give me pause because it doesn't make much sense.

The number of miscarriages is higher than the number of abortions.  It's a bigger problem for protecting unborn babies, yet pro-life folks don't talk about it much.  There are irresponsible women having many miscarriages.  That doesn't seem to be a threat. The value of a baby's life can't be conditional upon the feelings of the parents.  If it was, then abortion would be more palatable.

 

[KCitons]

And that's fine.  All I've been doing is taking your position and asking questions about its implication in other areas outside of abortion.

You've said, roughly, that a baby's death matters if the parents don't want it, and doesn't matter if the parents do want it...roughly.  You seem comfortable holding such an odd position.  If I found myself saying that I held such an opinion, it would give me pause because it doesn't make much sense.

You are wrong. Not only did I correct my statement. I know you saw the correction, because you quoted it. 

Intent. 

I'm just going to keep posting it until it sinks in. 

 

[adonis]

You are wrong. Not only did I correct my statement. I know you saw the correction, because you quoted it. 

Intent. 

I'm just going to keep posting it until it sinks in. 

It's not that it's not sinking in, it's that just saying the word "intent" doesn't remove the fact that you have a conditional valuation of the life of a baby based on the intent of the parents and their disposition to the baby.

If the parents want the kid to live, the baby's death isn't as big a deal as if the parents didn't want the kids to live and the baby died.  Did I get that wrong?  If so, please explain how.

 

[KCitons]

It's not that it's not sinking in, it's that just saying the word "intent" doesn't remove the fact that you have a conditional valuation of the life of a baby based on the intent of the parents and their disposition to the baby.

If the parents want the kid to live, the baby's death isn't as big a deal as if the parents didn't want the kids to live and the baby died.  Did I get that wrong?  If so, please explain how.

You are wrong. Not only did I correct my statement. I know you saw the correction, because you quoted it. 

Intent. 

I'm just going to keep posting it until it sinks in. 

 

[adonis]

Ok, if you're refusing to engage in conversation, that's fine.  Have a great weekend.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Do you think having sex with the safety net of abortions is a positive on society as a whole?

Yes

 

[parasaurolophus]

So a baby's life is sacred and it's murder, if the parents don't want the kid and seek an abortion...but the baby's life isn't sacred and it's not a killing of a sacred life if the parents really want it and there's an accidental miscarriage?

When my wife had a miscarriage the hospital (Franciscan) asked if they could give the remains a proper burial.

 

[adonis]

So a baby's life is sacred and it's murder, if the parents don't want the kid and seek an abortion...but the baby's life isn't sacred and it's not a killing of a sacred life if the parents really want it and there's an accidental miscarriage?

When my wife had a miscarriage the hospital (Franciscan) asked if they could give the remains a proper burial.

I'm sorry for your loss.