Laurence Maroney vs. DeAngelo Williams (1 Viewer)

[Riffraff]

1

When you win 6 championships in a row, no one wants to trade with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Useless without credible websites claiming your dominance.

----------------------------------------------

As for the Maroney vs. Williams debate:

Talent = Williams (I'd even put Drew over Maroney based on pure talent, "It" factor)

Situation = Maroney (Patriots had the pick of the two and chose... )

Injury concerns = tied (old leg vs new hammy)

Competitiveness = tied (both play with fire in their eyes)

Ability to be an every down back = Williams (every year over 1 year)

Size = Maroney (taller and heavier)

Speed = Maroney (can just blow by people, can't teach that)

Elusiveness = Williams (Maroney doesn't break tackles well or have the jitterstep)

Blocking = Williams (in on every play, but fairly equal "run every down" offense than Maroney)

Catching = Williams (because he had more opportunities to show the skills)

For me, it comes down to Williams as the better RB, while Maroney is pulling off a slightly less obvious "situation over talent" coup than the one everyone sees with Addai.

 

[Couch Potato]

I'm just not impressed with anyone's self-proclaimed supremacy.

He joined a 1st-year 14-team MOX dynasty league with me last year, finished dead last at 3-10 (I was 11-2)

he has since joined another initial dynasty league I'm tracking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Logic down?You don't find it a bit creepy that you're stalking complete strangers on the Internet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Creepy? Stalking complete strangers? He happens to be in a league I'm tracking, I'm not tracking the league because he's in it. There are three MOX leagues drafting at the same time. I am in one of them, and am following the other two for reference.

 

[Biabreakable]

1

When you win 6 championships in a row, no one wants to trade with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Useless without credible websites claiming your dominance.

----------------------------------------------

As for the Maroney vs. Williams debate:

Talent = Williams (I'd even put Drew over Maroney based on pure talent, "It" factor)

Situation = Maroney (Patriots had the pick of the two and chose... )

Injury concerns = tied (old leg vs new hammy)

Competitiveness = tied (both play with fire in their eyes)

Ability to be an every down back = Williams (every year over 1 year)

Size = Maroney (taller and heavier)

Speed = Maroney (can just blow by people, can't teach that)

Elusiveness = Williams (Maroney doesn't break tackles well or have the jitterstep)

Blocking = Williams (in on every play, but fairly equal "run every down" offense than Maroney)

Catching = Williams (because he had more opportunities to show the skills)

For me, it comes down to Williams as the better RB, while Maroney is pulling off a slightly less obvious "situation over talent" coup than the one everyone sees with Addai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice comparison break down. I count 5 points in favor of Williams to 3 in favor of Maroney.I still have no idea which one will be better. I'm hoping they will both be successful but my decision on this will go down to the wire.

Predraft I prefered Williams. And more than likely I will go that way. But Maroneys situation has definitly caused me to wonder.

 

[Workhorse]

1

When you win 6 championships in a row, no one wants to trade with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Useless without credible websites claiming your dominance.

----------------------------------------------

As for the Maroney vs. Williams debate:

Talent = Williams (I'd even put Drew over Maroney based on pure talent, "It" factor)

Situation = Maroney (Patriots had the pick of the two and chose... )

Injury concerns = tied (old leg vs new hammy)

Competitiveness = tied (both play with fire in their eyes)

Ability to be an every down back = Williams (every year over 1 year)

Size = Maroney (taller and heavier)

Speed = Maroney (can just blow by people, can't teach that)

Elusiveness = Williams (Maroney doesn't break tackles well or have the jitterstep)

Blocking = Williams (in on every play, but fairly equal "run every down" offense than Maroney)

Catching = Williams (because he had more opportunities to show the skills)

For me, it comes down to Williams as the better RB, while Maroney is pulling off a slightly less obvious "situation over talent" coup than the one everyone sees with Addai.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice comparison break down. I count 5 points in favor of Williams to 3 in favor of Maroney.I still have no idea which one will be better. I'm hoping they will both be successful but my decision on this will go down to the wire.

Predraft I prefered Williams. And more than likely I will go that way. But Maroneys situation has definitly caused me to wonder.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Nice breakdown. I'd give Maroney one more checkmark: Competition faced in college.Let's face it: Williams was impressive againts B-level college talent. It's one thing to show ability to break tackles against the likes of Houston, Akron and UTEP. It's another thing to do it against Ohio State and Wisconsin. How many Conference USA defenders got selected in the draft this year vs. the Big Ten?

Fact is that when you see D'Angelo Williams "breaking tackles" this past year, he's not breaking them against players such as AJ Hawk and Tamba Hali.

 

[offdee]

I agree.  Nice breakdown.  I'd give Maroney one more checkmark:  Competition faced in college.

Let's face it: Williams was impressive againts B-level college talent.  It's one thing to show ability to break tackles against the likes of Houston, Akron and UTEP.  It's another thing to do it against Ohio State and Wisconsin.  How many Conference USA defenders got selected in the draft this year vs. the Big Ten?

Fact is that when you see D'Angelo Williams "breaking tackles" this past year, he's not breaking them against players such as AJ Hawk and Tamba Hali.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another fact: for 3 straight years Defenses playing Memphis had one goal, and one goal only....stop DeAngelo Williams. They couldn't do it.Along with playing lesser competition, the Memphis program had much lesser surrounding offensive talent around Williams as well (compared to what Maroney had). Memphis was down to their 3rd string QB this past season, and DWill didn't miss a beat. Memphis' O-line thru the years had much to be desired...and when I see scouting reports talking about how Williams has trouble running between the tackles I just laugh. When you have 8-9 guys in the box every game stacking against the run and a less than optimal O-line of course the middle of the field is going to get clogged up....DWill didn't just run into that garbage, he made something happen to the outside. William's vision and cutting ability is second to none, and if the hole is there between the tackles he's gonna hit it.

 

[Rev]

Moroney's stats from last year... solid against average teams and against a couple good Big Ten teams, but poor against the best team (Penn st).

ATT YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD

09/01 @ Tulsa 21 203 9.7 2 0 0 0 0

09/10 vs Colorado State 26 133 5.1 2 1 14 14 0

09/17 vs Florida Atlantic 145 7.3 2 3 55 18.3 1

09/24 vs Purdue 217 4.7 0 5 59 11.8 0

10/01 @ Penn State 16 48 3 0 2 3 1.5 0

10/08 @ Michigan 36 129 3.6 1 0 0 0 0

10/15 vs Wisconsin 43 262 6.1 1 0 0 0 0

10/29 vs Ohio State 25 127 5.1 1 3 19 6.3 0

11/05 @ Indiana 15 85 5.7 1 1 8 8 0

11/19 @ Iowa 7 10 1.4 0 0 0 0 0

12/30 @ Virginia 109 4.2 0 2 12 6 0

 

[Christo]

Moroney's stats from last year... solid against average teams and against a couple good Big Ten teams, but poor against the best team (Penn st).

                                ATT YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD

09/01 @ Tulsa                21 203 9.7 2 0 0 0 0

09/10 vs Colorado State  26 133 5.1 2 1 14 14 0

09/17 vs Florida Atlantic  145 7.3 2 3 55 18.3 1

09/24 vs Purdue            217 4.7 0 5 59 11.8 0

10/01 @ Penn State      16 48 3 0 2 3 1.5 0

10/08 @ Michigan          36 129 3.6 1 0 0 0 0

10/15 vs Wisconsin        43 262 6.1 1 0 0 0 0

10/29 vs Ohio State      25 127 5.1 1 3 19 6.3 0

11/05 @ Indiana    15 85 5.7 1 1 8 8 0

11/19 @ Iowa        7 10 1.4 0 0 0 0 0

12/30 @ Virginia    109 4.2 0 2 12 6 0

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did he miss a game last year or did Minn only play 10 regular season games?

 

[Patoons]

Moroney's stats from last year... solid against average teams and against a couple good Big Ten teams, but poor against the best team (Penn st).

                                ATT YDS AVG TD REC YDS AVG TD

09/01 @ Tulsa                21 203 9.7 2 0 0 0 0

09/10 vs Colorado State  26 133 5.1 2 1 14 14 0

09/17 vs Florida Atlantic  145 7.3 2 3 55 18.3 1

09/24 vs Purdue            217 4.7 0 5 59 11.8 0

10/01 @ Penn State      16 48 3 0 2 3 1.5 0

10/08 @ Michigan          36 129 3.6 1 0 0 0 0

10/15 vs Wisconsin        43 262 6.1 1 0 0 0 0

10/29 vs Ohio State      25 127 5.1 1 3 19 6.3 0

11/05 @ Indiana    15 85 5.7 1 1 8 8 0

11/19 @ Iowa        7 10 1.4 0 0 0 0 0

12/30 @ Virginia    109 4.2 0 2 12 6 0

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did he miss a game last year or did Minn only play 10 regular season games?
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He missed a game or so with hamstring or ankle injury I believe.Also- Ohio State was one of the better defenses last season and he had a solid game against them.

 

[Workhorse]

I agree.  Nice breakdown.  I'd give Maroney one more checkmark:  Competition faced in college.

Let's face it: Williams was impressive againts B-level college talent.  It's one thing to show ability to break tackles against the likes of Houston, Akron and UTEP.  It's another thing to do it against Ohio State and Wisconsin.  How many Conference USA defenders got selected in the draft this year vs. the Big Ten?

Fact is that when you see D'Angelo Williams "breaking tackles" this past year, he's not breaking them against players such as AJ Hawk and Tamba Hali.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another fact: for 3 straight years Defenses playing Memphis had one goal, and one goal only....stop DeAngelo Williams. They couldn't do it.Along with playing lesser competition, the Memphis program had much lesser surrounding offensive talent around Williams as well (compared to what Maroney had). Memphis was down to their 3rd string QB this past season, and DWill didn't miss a beat. Memphis' O-line thru the years had much to be desired...and when I see scouting reports talking about how Williams has trouble running between the tackles I just laugh. When you have 8-9 guys in the box every game stacking against the run and a less than optimal O-line of course the middle of the field is going to get clogged up....DWill didn't just run into that garbage, he made something happen to the outside. William's vision and cutting ability is second to none, and if the hole is there between the tackles he's gonna hit it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not saying that Williams isn't going to be a great player and I'm not saying that he wasn't great in college. I'm simply trying to put his stats into perspective. When Maroney played against similar competition (vs. Tulsa for example), he put up similar eye-popping stats and broke tackles too.My point is that, when it comes to the speed and talent at the pro level, Maroney has come a lot closer to playing in that kind of environment than Williams has. It will be interesting to see who has the better career.

 

[ltaylor]

I think in Dynasty formats people read way too much into a player´s situation when in reality talent normally wins out in the end. So for me it comes down to who I believe is the better player, and For me, it is abundantly clear and has been since I touted him as top 10 talent this year prior to the draft:

Deangelo Williams is STUD.

Maroney couldnt hold his jockstrap.

Period.

Find me in 3 years.

End of story.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I agree.  Nice breakdown.  I'd give Maroney one more checkmark:  Competition faced in college.

Let's face it: Williams was impressive againts B-level college talent.  It's one thing to show ability to break tackles against the likes of Houston, Akron and UTEP.  It's another thing to do it against Ohio State and Wisconsin.  How many Conference USA defenders got selected in the draft this year vs. the Big Ten?

Fact is that when you see D'Angelo Williams "breaking tackles" this past year, he's not breaking them against players such as AJ Hawk and Tamba Hali.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another fact: for 3 straight years Defenses playing Memphis had one goal, and one goal only....stop DeAngelo Williams. They couldn't do it.Along with playing lesser competition, the Memphis program had much lesser surrounding offensive talent around Williams as well (compared to what Maroney had). Memphis was down to their 3rd string QB this past season, and DWill didn't miss a beat. Memphis' O-line thru the years had much to be desired...and when I see scouting reports talking about how Williams has trouble running between the tackles I just laugh. When you have 8-9 guys in the box every game stacking against the run and a less than optimal O-line of course the middle of the field is going to get clogged up....DWill didn't just run into that garbage, he made something happen to the outside. William's vision and cutting ability is second to none, and if the hole is there between the tackles he's gonna hit it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When Maroney played against similar competition (vs. Tulsa for example), he put up similar eye-popping stats and broke tackles too.

Did he? I remember watching quite a few of the Minnesota games against weak competition where Maroney racked up huge yardage last year, and it appeared that the difference between those games and the games against the likes of Michigan, PSU, Iowa etc was that the domination by the line was even greater than before. I still don't remember him running guys over or making guys miss in those games, it seemed like he had an awful lot of 35 or so yard runs just following the play with no defenders anywhere near him.

 

[ILoveMyLions]

Another fact:  for 3 straight years Defenses playing Memphis had one goal, and one goal only....stop DeAngelo Williams.  They couldn't do it.

Now, I don't heavily favor one back over the other at this point, but one could argue the same for Maroney. Minnesota was known for one thing, and one thing only, running the ball. After all, it's not like their QB was lighting up teams through the air the past three years. Despite this, Maroney would bust big runs all the time and had some huge games against much better competition. Both are very good backs, but I don't see this arguement favoring one back over the other in this case.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

I'm just not impressed with anyone's self-proclaimed supremacy.

He joined a 1st-year 14-team MOX dynasty league with me last year, finished dead last at 3-10 (I was 11-2)

he has since joined another initial dynasty league I'm tracking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Logic down?You don't find it a bit creepy that you're stalking complete strangers on the Internet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Creepy? Stalking complete strangers? He happens to be in a league I'm tracking, I'm not tracking the league because he's in it. There are three MOX leagues drafting at the same time. I am in one of them, and am following the other two for reference.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bruce, please stop calling me. I do not want to go out with you.

 

[Highway Robbery]

What about Gary Russell? Might there be a system that makes backs succeed?

 

[Couch Potato]

I'm just not impressed with anyone's self-proclaimed supremacy.

He joined a 1st-year 14-team MOX dynasty league with me last year, finished dead last at 3-10 (I was 11-2)

he has since joined another initial dynasty league I'm tracking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Logic down?You don't find it a bit creepy that you're stalking complete strangers on the Internet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Creepy? Stalking complete strangers? He happens to be in a league I'm tracking, I'm not tracking the league because he's in it. There are three MOX leagues drafting at the same time. I am in one of them, and am following the other two for reference.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bruce, please stop calling me. I do not want to go out with you.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aw, c'mon Ethan...

Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Don't you wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Don't cha

Don't cha

Don't you wish your girlfriend was raw like me

Don't you wish your girlfriend was fun like me

Don't cha

Don't cha

 

[Biabreakable]

I'm just not impressed with anyone's self-proclaimed supremacy.

He joined a 1st-year 14-team MOX dynasty league with me last year, finished dead last at 3-10 (I was 11-2)

he has since joined another initial dynasty league I'm tracking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Logic down?You don't find it a bit creepy that you're stalking complete strangers on the Internet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Creepy? Stalking complete strangers? He happens to be in a league I'm tracking, I'm not tracking the league because he's in it. There are three MOX leagues drafting at the same time. I am in one of them, and am following the other two for reference.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bruce, please stop calling me. I do not want to go out with you.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Aw, c'mon Ethan...

Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me

Don't you wish your girlfriend was a freak like me

Don't cha

Don't cha

Don't you wish your girlfriend was raw like me

Don't you wish your girlfriend was fun like me

Don't cha

Don't cha

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

um... absolutly not CP.

 

[Biabreakable]

Carolina running backs under Coach Fox:

2002 464 PA to 452 RA

2003 461 PA to 521 RA

2004 536 PA to 422 RA *both lead Rbs injured

2005 450 PA to 487 RA

2002:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Dee Brown            | 13 |  101  364  3.6  4  |  17    86  5.1  1 |

| Nick Goings          | 14 |  50  188  3.8  0  |  18    91  5.1  0 |

| Brad Hoover          | 16 |  31  129  4.2  0  |  17  187  11.0  2 |

| Joe Montgomery      |  3 |    7    20  2.9  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Rod Smart            | 15 |    1    2  2.0  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Lamar Smith          | 11 |  210  733  3.5  7  |  20  167  8.3  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2003:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Stephen Davis        | 14 |  318  1444  4.5  8  |  14  159  11.4  0 |

| DeShaun Foster      | 14 |  113  429  3.8  0  |  26  207  8.0  2 |

| Nick Goings          | 15 |  10    69  6.9  0  |  12    97  8.1  1 |

| Brad Hoover          | 16 |    6    21  3.5  0  |  12    72  6.0  1 |

| Rod Smart            | 16 |  20    49  2.5  0  |    3    11  3.7  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2004:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Brandon Bennett      |  8 |    6    17  2.8  1  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Stephen Davis        |  2 |  24    92  3.8  0  |    2    32  16.0  0 |

| DeShaun Foster      |  4 |  59  255  4.3  2  |    9    76  8.4  0 |

| Nick Goings          | 16 |  217  821  3.8  6  |  45  394  8.8  1 |

| Joey Harris          |  4 |  15    53  3.5  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Brad Hoover          | 14 |  68  246  3.6  0  |  21  161  7.7  2 |

| Jamal Robertson      |  5 |    0    0  0.0  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Rod Smart            |  3 |    3    4  1.3  0  |    1    5  5.0  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2005:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Casey Cramer        |  1 |    0    0  0.0  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Stephen Davis        | 13 |  180  549  3.0  12  |    5    45  9.0  0 |

| DeShaun Foster      | 15 |  205  879  4.3  2  |  34  372  10.9  1 |

| Nick Goings          | 16 |  37  133  3.6  0  |  14  151  10.8  0 |

| Brad Hoover          | 15 |  10    22  2.2  0  |  14    87  6.2  0 |

| Jamal Robertson      |  6 |  14    41  2.9  1  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Rod Smart            | 12 |    3    6  2.0  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

Due to injuries and oft times average at best talent available at the Rb position the Carolina Panthers have used a RBBC approach for the most part during Fox's 4 years running the team. The notable exception being in 2003 when they were able to use Stephen Davis as a feature Rb (318 carries) and Deshawn Foster as the COP (113 carries). It seems to me that this is idealy what the Panthers team wants to do if they can. They did get to the Super Bowl that year using a run 1st offense that ran the ball 521 times compared to 461 pass attempts. However this was Delhommes 1st year with the team and they have since opened up the passing attack significantly. In 2004 however thier Rbs were injured and so the increase in passing may have been more a product of neccessity than optimal intended design. It certainly wasn't a formula for success as thier record was only 7-9.

In 2005 the Panthers returned to the playoffs and ran the ball 487 times compared to 450 passing attempts. The used more of a RBBC approach with Davis (180 carries) and Foster (205 carries). However I think that if Davis were not as old he would have gotten the majority of the carries again and it seems pretty clear that they want to limit Fosters touches because he is so prone to injury. Davis also scored 12 TDs compared to Fosters 2. So the Panthers do not seem to think of Foster as a goal line Rb.

The Panthers did draft Eric Shelton last year who seems similar to Davis at least on paper. But he was injured and never got any playing time. Most of what I have heard in regards to him is that he is not even a lock to make the team. Much less ready or capable of having as significant role in the offense that Davis did.

Now this year the Panthers have drafted Deangelo Williams. A small but powerful and illusive Rb who reminds me of Tiki Barber. Fox is familiar with Barber having come from the Giants before getting his HC job in Carolina. Fox has used a similar formula as the Giants once used with Ron Dayne and Tiki Barber before Barber eventualy took over the feature Rb role having proven to be much more effective than Dayne.

Contract situation as far as Foster goes points to them not having a huge commitment to him beyond this year if Williams is more effective. Which I believe he will be. I think the resigning of Foster was more of a move for insurance not knowing if they would be able to draft a Rb at pick 27 or not. When Williams was still available to them at thier pick they were very quick to draft him.

So as I stated in another thread I see Williams being worked in slowly at 1st while they work on his pass blocking and his role may be dependent on if/how quickly he can learn thier protection schemes. One of he only weaknesses according to scouts is not being a accomplished blocker in pass protection. He is however a effective reciever and would be used on 3rd down in this capacity.

in 2006 I see somthing similar to last year in terms of distribution of carries between Foster and Williams assuming both are healthy through the season. With Williams getting more carries later on in the season as he develops as a blocker. I do think he will prove to be more productive than Foster and Foster could be kept as a COP Rb in 2007 without a great impact on thier Salary Cap. I think Foster would be released after the 2007 season if they keep him that long. And for 2007 I think the distribution in carries would be more similar to what we saw in 2003. Williams getting the majority of them.

Maroney on the other hand was drafted higher than any Rb in the BB Era. A coaching staff and front office that deservidly command respect. Up until now the Patriots have been content to use free agency and the trade for Corey Dillon for thier rushing attack while winning 3 Super Bowls.

They have been a pass 1st offense except as noted during Bradys 1st year at Qb and the Patriots 1st year with Corey Dillon. Both years resulted in Super Bowl victory. So I see this offense as one that strives for balance on offense and with good defense will run the ball more than pass due to running down the clock with a lead. But if the running game is not effective they trust Brady to keep the chains moving (except during his 1st year playing).

2000 565 PA to 424 RA

2001 482 PA to 473 RA *Bradys 1st year @ Qb

2002 605 PA to 395 RA

2003 538 PA to 473 RA

2004 485 PA to 524 RA *1st year with Dillon

2005 565 PA to 439 RA

2000:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Tony Carter          | 15 |  37    90  2.4  2  |    9    73  8.1  0 |

| Kevin Faulk          | 16 |  164  570  3.5  4  |  51  465  9.1  1 |

| Chris Floyd          |  2 |    2    -1  -0.5  0  |    1    21  21.0  0 |

| Raymont Harris      |  1 |    3    14  4.7  0  |    2    1  0.5  0 |

| Patrick Pass        |  5 |  18    58  3.2  0  |    4    17  4.2  0 |

| J.R. Redmond        | 11 |  125  406  3.2  1  |  20  126  6.3  2 |

| Harold Shaw          |  4 |    9    12  1.3  0  |    2    11  5.5  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2001:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Marc Edwards        | 16 |  51  141  2.8  1  |  25  166  6.6  2 |

| Kevin Faulk          | 15 |  41  169  4.1  1  |  30  189  6.3  2 |

| Patrick Pass        | 16 |    1    7  7.0  0  |    6    66  11.0  1 |

| J.R. Redmond        | 13 |  35  119  3.4  0  |  13  132  10.2  0 |

| Antowain Smith      | 16 |  287  1157  4.0  12  |  19  192  10.1  1 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2002:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Marc Edwards        | 16 |  31    96  3.1  0  |  23  196  8.5  0 |

| Kevin Faulk          | 15 |  52  271  5.2  2  |  37  379  10.2  3 |

| Patrick Pass        | 15 |    4    27  6.8  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| J.R. Redmond        |  8 |    4    2  0.5  0  |    2    5  2.5  0 |

| Antowain Smith      | 16 |  252  982  3.9  6  |  31  243  7.8  2 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2003:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Larry Centers        |  9 |  21    82  3.9  0  |  19  106  5.6  1 |

| Mike Cloud          |  5 |  27  118  4.4  5  |    1    8  8.0  0 |

| Kevin Faulk          | 15 |  178  638  3.6  0  |  48  440  9.2  0 |

| Fred McCrary        |  6 |    3    3  1.0  0  |    2    12  6.0  0 |

| Patrick Pass        | 13 |    6    27  4.5  0  |    4    21  5.2  0 |

| Antowain Smith      | 13 |  182  642  3.5  3  |  14    92  6.6  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2004:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Rabih Abdullah      |  9 |  13    13  1.0  1  |    1    9  9.0  0 |

| Cedric Cobbs        |  3 |  22    50  2.3  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Corey Dillon        | 15 |  345  1635  4.7  12  |  15  103  6.9  1 |

| Kevin Faulk          | 11 |  54  255  4.7  2  |  26  248  9.5  1 |

| Patrick Pass        | 14 |  39  141  3.6  0  |  28  215  7.7  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

2005:

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Name                |  G |  RSH  YARD  AVG  TD  |  REC  YARD  AVG  TD |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

| Mike Cloud          |  6 |  23    59  2.6  0  |    0    0  0.0  0 |

| Corey Dillon        | 12 |  209  733  3.5  12  |  22  181  8.2  1 |

| Heath Evans          |  6 |  51  192  3.8  0  |  10    88  8.8  0 |

| Kevin Faulk          |  8 |  51  145  2.8  0  |  29  260  9.0  0 |

| Patrick Pass        | 12 |  54  245  4.5  3  |  22  227  10.3  0 |

| Amos Zereoue        |  3 |    7    14  2.0  0  |    1    5  5.0  0 |

+----------------------+----+-----------------------+----------------------+

Can Maroney be as effective as Dillon? I don't see why not. Even if he is not quite as talented Antwain Smith still put up some good numbers in this offense before. And I think Maroney is definitly better than Smith was.I think BB has shown a commitment to a feature Rb with COP Kevin Faulk on 3rd down. Faulk is getting older now so he may not be part of thier formula for long. Even so I expect another COP Rb to be used on 3rd downs unless Maroney shows himself to be outstanding in that area. Dillon and Antwain Smith were not. But didn't need to be to do well in this offense either.

The Patriots have not had 2 feature Rbs before like they have in Dillon and Maroney now. I wonder if we may see a change in philosophy that causes them to share carries. But the way it looks to me right now is that Dillon will get the majority of the carries as long as he is effective. If he is then Maroney may have to wait until 2007. However Dillon did appear to have clearly lost a step to me last year and at 32 years old he may not ever get it back.

Conclushions:

NE has shown slightly more commitment to a feature Rb than Carolina has. But the injuries to Rbs in Carolina has to be considered as a mitigating factor. NE has given the ball to one Rb over 250 times in 3 out of the 6 years under BB. 2 of those being with a rather pedestrian Antwain Smith. Carolina has only done this in one out of 4 years with Fox.

However when injuries/ineffectiveness have been a factor in NE they have resorted to a similar split in distribution as Carolina has.

I am not seeing Maroney being in a better situation to get more than 250 carries in 2006 than Williams is.

Carolina has split carries more than NE has.

Carolina is more of a run 1st team than NE is.

NE has run more total plays on average than Carolina has been able to. I think this is because they have been more effective converting 3rd downs. Both teams have above average defense.

Overall I am not seeing Maroneys situation as being that much better than Williams unless you believe that Foster or Shelton are talents that will be able to keep Williams from getting more than 250 carries moving forward. Keeping in mind that Williams is a more accomplish recieving option for thier offense as well.

I am still somewhat on the fence in choosing between these 2 players if I must. However I am not seeing Maroneys situation as being so much clearly better than Williams after digging in to the history deeper.

Pure talent I think Williams has more of it than Maroney does.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Biabreakable, that was a very good post but I'm not sure I agree with conclusions based on the numbers. It seems abundantly clear based on the data there that both coaches were willing to ride their hoss so long as they had someone to ride.

Both had only 1 season with a RB going over 300 carries, and each were in arguably those RBs best year of their careers (Davis and Dillon). During those seasons, each coach split up the workload rather evenly as the other RBs on each team totalled a similar number of carries (140 vs. 120).

I would slightly agree that Fox is minorly more apt to a RBBC approach, but as you said the fact that this is even close when the Carolina RBs have suffered about 590 total injuries the last 4 years leads me to believe that this can't be anything worse than even.

 

[Rev]

I think in Dynasty formats people read way too much into a player´s situation when in reality talent normally wins out in the end.  So for me it comes down to who I believe is the better player, and For me, it is abundantly clear and has been since I touted him as top 10 talent this year prior to the draft:

Deangelo Williams is STUD.

Maroney couldnt hold his jockstrap.

Period.

Find me in 3 years.

End of story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said.

The discussion about how much each team will run and how much competition there is for the feature role is only partially relevant. Coaches determine their rushing and passing attack based upon their horses, and thats how I draft fantasy as well. Who is the better talent?

A while back, people were debating b/w Moroney and Calhoun for best back in the big 10. DeAngelo was being compared to Bush. I'm not sure that Moroney has earned a spot next to or above DW, although being drafted before him has certainly made the conversation interesting.

I love the prior post about

 

[Imedos]

I traded for what ended up being the 1.2 pick earlier in the season.

I thought pretty much all along that I would be drafting Deangelo.

But a couple of days ago I ended up picking Maroney.

I do think Deangelo is the more proven back. I do think he is shiftier, and I like that.

But I do view Foster as a legit threat to him being a full-time back, at least for a while. I'm also not quite ready to write off shelton as a goalline vulture, but I am not too concerned about him either.

The biggest thing that swayed me to Maroney was the teams that prefered him over Deangelo. Patriots, Denver, and supposedly Dallas and Indy. That's 4 teams with quality upper management that know what they are doing.

Then there is Dillon. I think he will tote the rock this year for the most part, but I would be really surprised if he was brought back next year.

I like the measurables, but I also like the fact that Maroney is 2 years younger and has significantly less mileage. And him beating out Barber is a plus as well.

So even though I do like Deangelo, I just couldn't pass up on Maroney.

 

[BigJim®]

1

When you win 6 championships in a row, no one wants to trade with you.

Useless without credible websites claiming your dominance.

----------------------------------------------

As for the Maroney vs. Williams debate:

Talent = Williams (I'd even put Drew over Maroney based on pure talent, "It" factor)

Situation = Maroney (Patriots had the pick of the two and chose... )

Injury concerns = tied (old leg vs new hammy)

Competitiveness = tied (both play with fire in their eyes)

Ability to be an every down back = Williams (every year over 1 year)

Size = Maroney (taller and heavier)

Speed = Maroney (can just blow by people, can't teach that)

Elusiveness = Williams (Maroney doesn't break tackles well or have the jitterstep)

Blocking = Williams (in on every play, but fairly equal "run every down" offense than Maroney)

Catching = Williams (because he had more opportunities to show the skills)

For me, it comes down to Williams as the better RB, while Maroney is pulling off a slightly less obvious "situation over talent" coup than the one everyone sees with Addai.

 

[BigJim®]

I traded for what ended up being the 1.2 pick earlier in the season.

I thought pretty much all along that I would be drafting Deangelo.

But a couple of days ago I ended up picking Maroney.

I do think Deangelo is the more proven back. I do think he is shiftier, and I like that.

But I do view Foster as a legit threat to him being a full-time back, at least for a while. I'm also not quite ready to write off Foster as a goalline vulture, but I am not too concerned about him either.

The biggest thing that swayed me to Maroney was the teams that prefered him over Deangelo. Patriots, Denver, and supposedly Dallas and Indy. That's 4 teams with quality upper management that know what they are doing.

Then there is Dillon. I think he will tote the rock this year for the most part, but I would be really surprised if he was brought back next year.

I like the measurables, but I also like the fact that Maroney is 2 years younger and has significantly less mileage. And him beating out Barber is a plus as well.

So even though I do like Deangelo, I just couldn't pass up on Maroney.

 

[Rev]

To this date I haven't seen a highlight video of Moroney that impresses me. He's got great stats, but as far as NFL ability, I'm iffy.

No question about DeAngelo though.

 

[jurb26]

I traded for what ended up being the 1.2 pick earlier in the season.

I thought pretty much all along that I would be drafting Deangelo.

But a couple of days ago I ended up picking Maroney.

I do think Deangelo is the more proven back. I do think he is shiftier, and I like that.

But I do view Foster as a legit threat to him being a full-time back, at least for a while. I'm also not quite ready to write off shelton as a goalline vulture, but I am not too concerned about him either.

The biggest thing that swayed me to Maroney was the teams that prefered him over Deangelo. Patriots, Denver, and supposedly Dallas and Indy. That's 4 teams with quality upper management that know what they are doing.

Then there is Dillon. I think he will tote the rock this year for the most part, but I would be really surprised if he was brought back next year.

I like the measurables, but I also like the fact that Maroney is 2 years younger and has significantly less mileage. And him beating out Barber is a plus as well.

So even though I do like Deangelo, I just couldn't pass up on Maroney.

Couple of questions:1. What in the world has Foster shown or proven over his career that would lead you to believe he can be a featured RB and hold off a 1st round talent like Williams? Especially when you compare Foster to Dillon?

2. If Car sees this the same way as you, why then did they go with a 1st rd RB like Williams? This draft was plenty deep enough at RB to nab an inury filler later in rds 2 or 3. My impression is that they know Foster is NOT the answer... even for this year.

3. Car liked Williams more than Maroney. Are you saying their front office has not been as impressive as some of those other teams you listed? I would beg to dissagree with that assumption.

Bottom line, I think Williams is the more talenterd RB. Talent eventually wins out. Not only that, but I think he landed in a far better run scheme and on a team that will be much easier to break the starting lineup. Williams was the RB who moved up my draft board the most after the NFL draft. Well at least of the top end RBs that is.

 

[Rev]

Couple of questions:

1. What in the world has Foster shown or proven over his career that would lead you to believe he can be a featured RB and hold off a 1st round talent like Williams? Especially when you compare Foster to Dillon?

2. If Car sees this the same way as you, why then did they go with a 1st rd RB like Williams? This draft was plenty deep enough at RB to nab an inury filler later in rds 2 or 3. My impression is that they know Foster is NOT the answer... even for this year.

3. Car liked Williams more than Maroney. Are you saying their front office has not been as impressive as some of those other teams you listed? I would beg to dissagree with that assumption.

Bottom line, I think Williams is the more talenterd RB. Talent eventually wins out. Not only that, but I think he landed in a far better run scheme and on a team that will be much easier to break the starting lineup. Williams was the RB who moved up my draft board the most after the NFL draft. Well at least of the top end RBs that is.

I've been trying to say this for a while now but lacked the precision you show here. Nice job.

As we say in the Norweigian decended lands of the midwest: Ya shure ya betcha.

 

[Imedos]

I traded for what ended up being the 1.2 pick earlier in the season.

I thought pretty much all along that I would be drafting Deangelo.

But a couple of days ago I ended up picking Maroney.

I do think Deangelo is the more proven back. I do think he is shiftier, and I like that.

But I do view Foster as a legit threat to him being a full-time back, at least for a while. I'm also not quite ready to write off shelton as a goalline vulture, but I am not too concerned about him either.

The biggest thing that swayed me to Maroney was the teams that prefered him over Deangelo. Patriots, Denver, and supposedly Dallas and Indy. That's 4 teams with quality upper management that know what they are doing.

Then there is Dillon. I think he will tote the rock this year for the most part, but I would be really surprised if he was brought back next year.

I like the measurables, but I also like the fact that Maroney is 2 years younger and has significantly less mileage. And him beating out Barber is a plus as well.

So even though I do like Deangelo, I just couldn't pass up on Maroney.

Couple of questions:1. What in the world has Foster shown or proven over his career that would lead you to believe he can be a featured RB and hold off a 1st round talent like Williams? Especially when you compare Foster to Dillon?

2. If Car sees this the same way as you, why then did they go with a 1st rd RB like Williams? This draft was plenty deep enough at RB to nab an inury filler later in rds 2 or 3. My impression is that they know Foster is NOT the answer... even for this year.

3. Car liked Williams more than Maroney. Are you saying their front office has not been as impressive as some of those other teams you listed? I would beg to dissagree with that assumption.

Bottom line, I think Williams is the more talenterd RB. Talent eventually wins out. Not only that, but I think he landed in a far better run scheme and on a team that will be much easier to break the starting lineup. Williams was the RB who moved up my draft board the most after the NFL draft. Well at least of the top end RBs that is.

1. He's a playmaker. Talent has never been a question for him imo, he's just had a ton of bad luck with injuries. He has seniority and the faith of the coaching staff. He will be heavily in the rotation and while Deangelo will steal carries, I truly think he will be hard pressed to beat out Foster for the starting gig. And yes, that is of course asssuming Foster can manage to stay healthy. Dillon is old, struggled last year, has injury concerns himself, and is a prime candidate to be cut next year, even if he has a nice season.2. Injuries. Carolina has been hit up with rb injuries so bad for the last few years and they want all the talented rbs they can get so they don't have to resort to starting fbs and other marginal players at hb again. No more Davis, Shelton with bust question marks, yes they needed a rb behind Foster with his durability concerns, and not a Norwood, Drew, or Harrison, someone they could realistically count on if the need arose.

3. I think it's a little hard to prove Carolina actually liked Deangelo more than Maroney. Before the draft, it's hard to tell what's what with all the smokescreens. After the draft, they are going to fluff up their draft pick as much as possible, as they should.

Bottom line, Maroney is in a better situation imo, and even though DeAngelo was the better college rb, that doesn't necessarily translate into him being a better nfl rb.

 

[Dave Baker]

FWIW, I had Maroney rated higher than Williams prior to the NFL draft. Williams injury history scares me a little (I htink he had a broken leg, and MCL tear and a knee sprain all in his college years) plus Maroney has a bit more power.

I also like Maroney's situation, but reverse the situations and I might take Maroney anyway in my fantasy draft.

I think they're both going to be fine pros though.

 

[houndirish]

My thunder has been stolen a bit on this issue but ....

does anybody believe in the Carolina Panthers RB injury jinx?

Going back to their inception, they signed Barry Foster from Pittsburgh. Bananas didn't even make it through camp.

Tim Biakabatuka was supposed to be the savior. He blew his ACL and was never the same.

Fred Lane fills in and then gets shot and killed by his wife. Definitely the worst injury of the bunch.

DeShuan Foster gets drafted. Can't stay healthy so the team signs Stephen Davis. Stephen Davis also struggles to stay healthy. He stays in the lineup just long enough for Foster to get healthy again. Davis - injured ... out. Foster reclaims starting gig. Foster then breaks his ankle just when he gets the chance to shine in the playoffs.

The only guy who's been at all dependable, besides long since departed Anthony Johnson, is blue collar Nick Goings, who left his last game with a vicious concussion.

Now I firmly believe Deangelo is the more talented back when compared to LoMo. I think both their situations have enough positives that there isn't a reason to take one over the other based solely on the team who drafted them. That being the case I stick with the more talented player in Williams. But I'll admit, Charlotte, NC is the Bermuda Triangle for Running Backs.

 

[Dave Baker]

does anybody believe in the Carolina Panthers RB injury jinx?

No.

 

[BigJim®]

I think in Dynasty formats people read way too much into a player´s situation when in reality talent normally wins out in the end. So for me it comes down to who I believe is the better player, and For me, it is abundantly clear and has been since I touted him as top 10 talent this year prior to the draft:

Deangelo Williams is STUD.

Maroney couldnt hold his jockstrap.

Period.

Find me in 3 years.

End of story.

I went from to reading that message. Saying the #2 RB selected in the NFL draft couldn't hold the jock of another RB is a credibility wrecker.

 

[Rovers]

It's always hard to make these calls.... I remember Blair Thomas.... and Ron Dayne. I thought both would be top shelf RB's. In this case, I go with Maroney for one simple reason.... I think Belichick and the Pats' FO and scouts are smarter than I am.

As for the zone blocking debate.... and especially as it relates to Esslinger, here is a predraft article that said Esslinger would likely be a second day pick, and would only fit in the NFL on a team that uses zone blocking.

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/OLSchemes.cfm

Mangold is much more suited to man blocking schemes, and he went in the first round.

 

[Rev]

It's always hard to make these calls.... I remember Blair Thomas.... and Ron Dayne. I thought both would be top shelf RB's. In this case, I go with Maroney for one simple reason.... I think Belichick and the Pats' FO and scouts are smarter than I am.

As for the zone blocking debate.... and especially as it relates to Esslinger, here is a predraft article that said Esslinger would likely be a second day pick, and would only fit in the NFL on a team that uses zone blocking.

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/OLSchemes.cfm

Mangold is much more suited to man blocking schemes, and he went in the first round.

Your Blair Thomas/Ron Dayne point is well taken, but any FFer who drafted them could have done so because those teams' front office were smarter than them as well. It just makes no sense to first say that front offices have made serious mistakes by drafting players like Thomas, Dayne, Salaam, Leaf, ect, but then to say that you plan to draft Moroney because his team liked him more than some other back. Please explain that to me?

 

[Rovers]

It's always hard to make these calls.... I remember Blair Thomas.... and Ron Dayne. I thought both would be top shelf RB's. In this case, I go with Maroney for one simple reason.... I think Belichick and the Pats' FO and scouts are smarter than I am.

As for the zone blocking debate.... and especially as it relates to Esslinger, here is a predraft article that said Esslinger would likely be a second day pick, and would only fit in the NFL on a team that uses zone blocking.

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/OLSchemes.cfm

Mangold is much more suited to man blocking schemes, and he went in the first round.

Your Blair Thomas/Ron Dayne point is well taken, but any FFer who drafted them could have done so because those teams' front office were smarter than them as well. It just makes no sense to first say that front offices have made serious mistakes by drafting players like Thomas, Dayne, Salaam, Leaf, ect, but then to say that you plan to draft Moroney because his team liked him more than some other back. Please explain that to me?

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

 

[Rovers]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

LOL! Your point would be valid if the Panthers picked BEFORE the Pats did, and took Williams over Maroney. Unless you know for a fact that the Panthers had Williams over Maroney on their draft board.... it's meaningless. It's also very misleading to comapre the Panther's first rounders to the Pats', but you did at least mention this rather important factoid. The Pats have been drafting at the very bottom of the first round for years.... the Panthers had BETTER look better than the Pats' do in such a biased comparison.

How this could turn into a comparison of NE's 1st round draft picks to that of the Panthers is a head scratcher.... it's a different discussion.

The facts are: NE had a choice of Williams and Maroney, and chose Maroney. The Panthers were not faced with that choice, so we'll never know which RB was higher on their board.

There are some FO's that I trust...... it so happens that CAR and NE are two of them. When each team makes a pick, I pay attention, and sometimes adjust my rookie board accordingly. Then there's the Raiders.... when they make a pick, that guy just might drop!

 

[Chaos Commish]

New England isn't perfect. They took Bethel Johnson right before Anquan Boldin went. They took JR Redmon right before Reuben Droughns. There's other similar examples, and there's always reasonable excuses, but I wouldn't judge Maroney and DeAngelo based on draft position. I like Williams better. I disagree with Baker about which back runs with better power.

The thing that turned me off about Maroney last year was his lack of power. He wasn't good in short yardage. I saw him stood up and driven back by DBs in short yardage a few times in a couple different games. Russell was the far better short yardage runner and had a higher YPC overall.

DeAngelo on the other hand is a very powerful package. His playing weight was higher than Maroney's, he hits the hole harder, breaks more tackles and is very underrated in the power category. It's one of his strengths and it was acknowledged by Senior Bowl coaches. He brags about trying to hurt defenders. His bench press was very impressive and I know people get bent out of shape about the significance, but he is simply much much stronger than Maroney. I think New England blew this one.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

LOL! Your point would be valid if the Panthers picked BEFORE the Pats did, and took Williams over Maroney. Unless you know for a fact that the Panthers had Williams over Maroney on their draft board.... it's meaningless. It's also very misleading to comapre the Panther's first rounders to the Pats', but you did at least mention this rather important factoid. The Pats have been drafting at the very bottom of the first round for years.... the Panthers had BETTER look better than the Pats' do in such a biased comparison.

How this could turn into a comparison of NE's 1st round draft picks to that of the Panthers is a head scratcher.... it's a different discussion.

The facts are: NE had a choice of Williams and Maroney, and chose Maroney. The Panthers were not faced with that choice, so we'll never know which RB was higher on their board.

There are some FO's that I trust...... it so happens that CAR and NE are two of them. When each team makes a pick, I pay attention, and sometimes adjust my rookie board accordingly. Then there's the Raiders.... when they make a pick, that guy just might drop!

Fair point that no one knows if the Panthers had DeAngelo higher, though with the haste they made the pick I think it's fair to say that they were quite high on him. And the Patriots picks weren't that much worse than the Panthers when I actually looked at it (Pats traded up a couple times as well), especially the last couple years.Nonetheless, the list of Patriot first round picks the last 4 years hasn't exactly made a lot of trips to Hawaii.

 

[Rev]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

LOL! Your point would be valid if the Panthers picked BEFORE the Pats did, and took Williams over Maroney. Unless you know for a fact that the Panthers had Williams over Maroney on their draft board.... it's meaningless. It's also very misleading to comapre the Panther's first rounders to the Pats', but you did at least mention this rather important factoid. The Pats have been drafting at the very bottom of the first round for years.... the Panthers had BETTER look better than the Pats' do in such a biased comparison.

How this could turn into a comparison of NE's 1st round draft picks to that of the Panthers is a head scratcher.... it's a different discussion.

The facts are: NE had a choice of Williams and Maroney, and chose Maroney. The Panthers were not faced with that choice, so we'll never know which RB was higher on their board.

There are some FO's that I trust...... it so happens that CAR and NE are two of them. When each team makes a pick, I pay attention, and sometimes adjust my rookie board accordingly. Then there's the Raiders.... when they make a pick, that guy just might drop!

I still think your missing the point about drafting players, even by front offices you like and trust. The prior poster shows that the Pat's last few 1st rounders haven't been world-breakers, which is a valid point because even late 1st rounders still have significant potential in the NFL (see DeAngelo Williams and Jo Addai!), and also because many players in the 2nd round end up as solid NFL talents. Also, even draft guru Mike Shannahan biffed the Tatum Bell pick (most would say), since now the Bronco's don't think he can endure a full load. Trust the front office or not, you've gotta acknowledge that its a crap shoot and teams often misjudge players.

So you've gotta do your own research and go with your gut, IMO. And my research tells me that DeAngelo >>> Moroney by far.

 

[jurb26]

1. He's a playmaker. Talent has never been a question for him imo, he's just had a ton of bad luck with injuries. He has seniority and the faith of the coaching staff. He will be heavily in the rotation and while Deangelo will steal carries, I truly think he will be hard pressed to beat out Foster for the starting gig. And yes, that is of course asssuming Foster can manage to stay healthy. Dillon is old, struggled last year, has injury concerns himself, and is a prime candidate to be cut next year, even if he has a nice season.

2. Injuries. Carolina has been hit up with rb injuries so bad for the last few years and they want all the talented rbs they can get so they don't have to resort to starting fbs and other marginal players at hb again. No more Davis, Shelton with bust question marks, yes they needed a rb behind Foster with his durability concerns, and not a Norwood, Drew, or Harrison, someone they could realistically count on if the need arose.

3. I think it's a little hard to prove Carolina actually liked Deangelo more than Maroney. Before the draft, it's hard to tell what's what with all the smokescreens. After the draft, they are going to fluff up their draft pick as much as possible, as they should.

Bottom line, Maroney is in a better situation imo, and even though DeAngelo was the better college rb, that doesn't necessarily translate into him being a better nfl rb.

1. Yes, Foster is a playmaker, but Car taking a RB in th 1st sure as heck does not show a great level of confidence in him as either a long term answer to the RB postition, or short term answer IMO. It is also notworthy that while Foster has the lable of playmaker, he may have in fact just pulled the wool over our eyes as a collective group. I admit I fell prey to this too. Do these look like the numbers of a player maker or starting caliber RB in the NFL, especially after you facto in the decision to draft a 1st round RB?:
Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 car | 14 | 113 429 3.8 0 | 26 207 8.0 2 || 2004 car | 4 | 59 255 4.3 2 | 9 76 8.4 0 || 2005 car | 15 | 205 879 4.3 2 | 34 372 10.9 12. I agree, but I think they are looking for a franchise back to REPLACE the others with asap and stop gap him if needed, not the other way around.3. True and solid point. It is hard to say after the fact. I think there is certainly some credance to it though because a lot other teams also had him rated higher. There was a vritual split after Bush between the 2 from what I had heard.

As far as situation goes, I guess we can simply agree to disagree. I think both found very lovely homes as far as FF and NFL go. Both will be given the op to unseat the incumbant IMO. I just happen to feel that Williams posesses more ability and I'm also partial to the Car scheme/running game. We'll see how it turns out, it's a fun debate but really when you get to the meat of it all a toss up.

 

[fruity pebbles]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

Looks like a draw to me. Every one of those players on both sides is starting for their respective team.

 

[jurb26]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

LOL! Your point would be valid if the Panthers picked BEFORE the Pats did, and took Williams over Maroney. Unless you know for a fact that the Panthers had Williams over Maroney on their draft board.... it's meaningless. It's also very misleading to comapre the Panther's first rounders to the Pats', but you did at least mention this rather important factoid. The Pats have been drafting at the very bottom of the first round for years.... the Panthers had BETTER look better than the Pats' do in such a biased comparison.

How this could turn into a comparison of NE's 1st round draft picks to that of the Panthers is a head scratcher.... it's a different discussion.

The facts are: NE had a choice of Williams and Maroney, and chose Maroney. The Panthers were not faced with that choice, so we'll never know which RB was higher on their board.

There are some FO's that I trust...... it so happens that CAR and NE are two of them. When each team makes a pick, I pay attention, and sometimes adjust my rookie board accordingly. Then there's the Raiders.... when they make a pick, that guy just might drop!

You could reverse this arguement for NE and Holmes/Jackson. Who do you think NE had higher?I'm a Steeler fan and can admit that I think they had Jackson higher even though there is no way to "prove" it. Not sure why it is so unreasonable to think that Car did with Williams too. As the previous poster said, they basically sprinted up the the table with the pic and rumor was that most teams had a split between the 2 RBs anyway.

 

[jurb26]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

Looks like a draw to me. Every one of those players on both sides is starting for their respective team.

BOTH teams have faired extremly well in recent draft regardless of where those picks have come. Car has a great front office and a great coaching staff. Not really sure why we are beating this to death. It is OK for 2 or more teams to do well at the FO level.

 

[Capt Hook]

Would love to answer, but my fantasy team never sucks bad enough to be in contention for the high picks. .

Trade much?

When you win 6 championships in a row, no one wants to trade with you.

Stop playing with those guys at the Braille Institute and get into a real league.Or WCOFF will have a draft in AC - get over there and prove something

 

[Christo]

So you've gotta do your own research and go with your gut, IMO. And my research tells me that DeAngelo >>> Moroney by far.

That's what it boils down to with rookies. I've watched both guys play and to me Williams just looks like a better football player.

 

[Rovers]

This is simple as well..... the Pats have been MUCH better in terms of their recent drafting track record that the Jets or Giants were at that point in time. Show me a bust pick the Pats have made in the last four years? They saw something in Dillon that few others did. If they see Maroney as better than Williams.... that tips the scale for me.

Uh...Patriots first round picks the last 4 yearsLogan Mankins

Ben Watson

Ty Warren

Vince Wilfork

Daniel Graham

Panthers first round picks the last 4 years

Thomas Davis

Chris Gamble

Jordan Gross

Julius Peppers

Seems like Carolina's picks are making a bigger impact than NE's. To be fair they had two top 15 picks and NE had only one yet still..

LOL! Your point would be valid if the Panthers picked BEFORE the Pats did, and took Williams over Maroney. Unless you know for a fact that the Panthers had Williams over Maroney on their draft board.... it's meaningless. It's also very misleading to comapre the Panther's first rounders to the Pats', but you did at least mention this rather important factoid. The Pats have been drafting at the very bottom of the first round for years.... the Panthers had BETTER look better than the Pats' do in such a biased comparison.

How this could turn into a comparison of NE's 1st round draft picks to that of the Panthers is a head scratcher.... it's a different discussion.

The facts are: NE had a choice of Williams and Maroney, and chose Maroney. The Panthers were not faced with that choice, so we'll never know which RB was higher on their board.

There are some FO's that I trust...... it so happens that CAR and NE are two of them. When each team makes a pick, I pay attention, and sometimes adjust my rookie board accordingly. Then there's the Raiders.... when they make a pick, that guy just might drop!

I still think your missing the point about drafting players, even by front offices you like and trust. The prior poster shows that the Pat's last few 1st rounders haven't been world-breakers, which is a valid point because even late 1st rounders still have significant potential in the NFL (see DeAngelo Williams and Jo Addai!), and also because many players in the 2nd round end up as solid NFL talents. Also, even draft guru Mike Shannahan biffed the Tatum Bell pick (most would say), since now the Bronco's don't think he can endure a full load. Trust the front office or not, you've gotta acknowledge that its a crap shoot and teams often misjudge players.

So you've gotta do your own research and go with your gut, IMO. And my research tells me that DeAngelo >>> Moroney by far.

No, I didn't miss the point.... I said I had these two players ranked very evenly. I do my research, watch games, read the reports, and yes, use some gut feel, and also consider the situation they enter. After all of that, I still had them about equal. I didn't like that Maroney came from a zone blocking scheme, there were some other things, and things I didn't like about Williams. So, again, I had them about even on my board.Since it isn't in the "Parcells family line of coaches" to go RB in the first round, that carried some wieght with me. Belichick took Maroney over Williams.... and did so in the first round. So, if I was 50-50 on these two players, that is more info, and swings it slightly towards Maroney. Call it 52-48..... lol.

There are FO's I trust more than others.... and draft gurus that I trust more than others. All of that goes into how I rank a player. It's not like I don't watch, eval on my own, and research, weighing different scouting reports more heavilly than others. I'll say it again, for clarity: If i have two players ranked equally, and Belichick takes one over the other, I'm going to pay attention and take that into account.

As for comparing the Panthers draft to the Pats.... it's sort of irrelevant. The Panthers didn't ahev a choice between these two players. If they did, and took Williams, I would have considered that as well, as they are one of the FO's I respect and take their draft decisions into my decision making process as well.

Belichick made a strong statement when he took Maroney. that doesn't mean Maroney will be better than Williams, but to ignore that is a mistake too.

 

[Noahs Troopers]

I just drafted them both in my rookie draft, hope they are both studs.

 

[Rev]

Belichick made a strong statement when he took Maroney. that doesn't mean Maroney will be better than Williams, but to ignore that is a mistake too.

I agree that you take who goes first in the draft and by whom, into account, but I repeat that in drafting superstars, teams are wrong more often than not.The fact the Moroney got drafted 1st is the only reason I started this thread. It ups his stock, but I think to a fault. I don't think he'll be in the same class as DeAngelo.

 

[Imedos]

1. He's a playmaker. Talent has never been a question for him imo, he's just had a ton of bad luck with injuries. He has seniority and the faith of the coaching staff. He will be heavily in the rotation and while Deangelo will steal carries, I truly think he will be hard pressed to beat out Foster for the starting gig. And yes, that is of course asssuming Foster can manage to stay healthy. Dillon is old, struggled last year, has injury concerns himself, and is a prime candidate to be cut next year, even if he has a nice season.

2. Injuries. Carolina has been hit up with rb injuries so bad for the last few years and they want all the talented rbs they can get so they don't have to resort to starting fbs and other marginal players at hb again. No more Davis, Shelton with bust question marks, yes they needed a rb behind Foster with his durability concerns, and not a Norwood, Drew, or Harrison, someone they could realistically count on if the need arose.

3. I think it's a little hard to prove Carolina actually liked Deangelo more than Maroney. Before the draft, it's hard to tell what's what with all the smokescreens. After the draft, they are going to fluff up their draft pick as much as possible, as they should.

Bottom line, Maroney is in a better situation imo, and even though DeAngelo was the better college rb, that doesn't necessarily translate into him being a better nfl rb.

1. Yes, Foster is a playmaker, but Car taking a RB in th 1st sure as heck does not show a great level of confidence in him as either a long term answer to the RB postition, or short term answer IMO. It is also notworthy that while Foster has the lable of playmaker, he may have in fact just pulled the wool over our eyes as a collective group. I admit I fell prey to this too. Do these look like the numbers of a player maker or starting caliber RB in the NFL, especially after you facto in the decision to draft a 1st round RB?:
Rushing | Receiving |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 2003 car | 14 | 113 429 3.8 0 | 26 207 8.0 2 || 2004 car | 4 | 59 255 4.3 2 | 9 76 8.4 0 || 2005 car | 15 | 205 879 4.3 2 | 34 372 10.9 12. I agree, but I think they are looking for a franchise back to REPLACE the others with asap and stop gap him if needed, not the other way around.3. True and solid point. It is hard to say after the fact. I think there is certainly some credance to it though because a lot other teams also had him rated higher. There was a vritual split after Bush between the 2 from what I had heard.

As far as situation goes, I guess we can simply agree to disagree. I think both found very lovely homes as far as FF and NFL go. Both will be given the op to unseat the incumbant IMO. I just happen to feel that Williams posesses more ability and I'm also partial to the Car scheme/running game. We'll see how it turns out, it's a fun debate but really when you get to the meat of it all a toss up.

1. I agree that his stats don't look all that great, but when he's been healthy and received the reps of the primary ball carrier, more often than not he has gotten results.2. I also agree with this. But I do think Foster will make it tough for DeAngelo to supplant him(and competition is a good thing), and when it does happen there may be more of a rbbc than people may be expecting.

3. Yup. That split is what makes it so hard to believe that there is such a huge talent gap between the two.

fwiw, I do like both their chances and would be happy with either one of them. I do think it's a toss up as to which one has the better career at this point. That's why age and mileage did play a role to in my selection. Any other position, and I wouldn't have glanced at them all that much(unless it's a geezer like Weinke). But as everyone in ff knows, the clock is always ticking with rbs.

 

[Biabreakable]

I have been reading threads from 2006 mostly looking at rookie player situations and what peoples thoughts were at the time. Some pretty interesting comments here.

Of course this isn't what I was looking for.

 

[obxlegends]

I have been reading threads from 2006 mostly looking at rookie player situations and what peoples thoughts were at the time. Some pretty interesting comments here.Of course this isn't what I was looking for.

What I've learned it to never doubt Chaos Commish.