Lawyerguys School Me On Billable Hours (1 Viewer)

[James Daulton]

I'm only speaking for myself, but I assume that when people talk about billing 2k hours plus they must be "cheating" to an extent.  That's a 40hr week just billing and that means you still need time to get all the non-billing stuff done.  Now I know nothing about billable hours, so can you explain how it works?

If you're my attorney for example and we talk on the phone for say 18 minutes, is that time captured electronically and do you bill me for 18 minutes?  How do I know that if I get a bill that has multiple people's billing for work on my behalf that the work actually took that long?

No hate, no judgement, just legit curious since I've always been a salaryman. 

 

[eoMMan]

I'm only speaking for myself, but I assume that when people talk about billing 2k hours plus they must be "cheating" to an extent.  That's a 40hr week just billing and that means you still need time to get all the non-billing stuff done.  Now I know nothing about billable hours, so can you explain how it works?

If you're my attorney for example and we talk on the phone for say 18 minutes, is that time captured electronically and do you bill me for 18 minutes?  How do I know that if I get a bill that has multiple people's billing for work on my behalf that the work actually took that long?

No hate, no judgement, just legit curious since I've always been a salaryman. 

A lot of it is fudged/estimated. You, as the client, should keep your own estimate and don't be afraid to speak up and ask about your bill if something looks off.

-Former accountant who kept track of billable hours

 

[James Daulton]

A lot of it is fudged/estimated. You, as the client, should keep your own estimate and don't be afraid to speak up and ask about your bill if something looks off.

-Former accountant who kept track of billable hours

Agreed, but we can't keep track of hours reportedly done when we're not involved.  You'd think there would be something scienific involved when hundreds of dollars per hour are involved.  I'm sure the offices must have some more precise way of tracking.   

 

[apalmer]

I'm only speaking for myself, but I assume that when people talk about billing 2k hours plus they must be "cheating" to an extent.  That's a 40hr week just billing and that means you still need time to get all the non-billing stuff done.  Now I know nothing about billable hours, so can you explain how it works?

If you're my attorney for example and we talk on the phone for say 18 minutes, is that time captured electronically and do you bill me for 18 minutes?  How do I know that if I get a bill that has multiple people's billing for work on my behalf that the work actually took that long?

No hate, no judgement, just legit curious since I've always been a salaryman. 

You think lawyers only work 40 hr. weeks?  Cute.  60 is more likely, and associates at big firms are probably closer to 80 (or more). I was just talking to a friend the other day who was laughing because his bookkeeper asked him if there was something wrong with his health because he didn't have any billable hours on the previous Sunday, which was the first day in over 3 months that that he had a day with no billable time--and he's a 75 year-old senior partner.

Counting time varies--there is software available to "capture" time on phone calls, etc., but it's more common to keep a Daytimer-type record. When you finish something, you write it down, along with the time you spent. I can't speak for everyone, but at least around here, time isn't usually kept by the minute.  We generally do it by tenths of an hour, so your 18 minute phone call would be .3 hours.  Obviously, there's going to be some rounding, and, yeah, time will probably get rounded up (a 17 minute call is still going to go as .3 of an hour).  There's also going to be some degree of "fudging" out of necessity--when a client calls me at home or stops me on the street with questions, I'm probably not going to be in a position to time it to the minute, so it's going to involve guesswork. But, on the whole, we try to be reasonably accurate. If you think that your attorney is inflating the bill with work/time that wasn't actually done, then you need to find a different attorney.

 

[TLEF316]

You think lawyers only work 40 hr. weeks?  Cute.  60 is more likely, and associates at big firms are probably closer to 80 (or more). I was just talking to a friend the other day who was laughing because his bookkeeper asked him if there was something wrong with his health because he didn't have any billable hours on the previous Sunday, which was the first day in over 3 months that that he had a day with no billable time--and he's a 75 year-old senior partner.

This person made bad life choices. 

If you can't enjoy your Sundays when you're 75 and presumably have decades of mid 6 figures income in your history, it wasn't nearly worth it.

 

[apalmer]

This person made bad life choices. 

If you can't enjoy your Sundays when you're 75 and presumably have decades of mid 6 figures income in your history, it wasn't nearly worth it.

What makes you think he isn't enjoying his Sundays?

 

[TLEF316]

What makes you think he isn't enjoying his Sundays?

People are surprised if he doesn't do work. What's the point of working 80 hours a week in your 30's , 40's and 50's if you're still working weekends in your 70's?

 

[thecatch]

Agreed, but we can't keep track of hours reportedly done when we're not involved.  You'd think there would be something scienific involved when hundreds of dollars per hour are involved.  I'm sure the offices must have some more precise way of tracking.   

Attorneys are expected to keep accurate records of their time. Before the client gets the bill, the time entries are typically reviewed by a senior partner (or the partner with the client relationship) to (in theory at least) make sure all the time claimed seems reasonable. It’s not uncommon for partners to cut large chunks of junior lawyers’ time because they spent too much time on a task. 

 

[mquinnjr]

This thread reminds me of this scene from Arrested Development, which I would imagine is an outsider's view of professional billing:

When Barry calls the Bluth family together for a conference, he spends the first 25 minutes on the phone, says, “I’m going to round it up to an hour,” then clandestinely pops a Danish into his briefcase and says he has to go.

I worked in the Big 4 public accounting when I started out, and we had to be pretty precise when it came to billing hours to a client. 

 

[kutta]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

 

[apalmer]

What makes you think he isn't enjoying his Sundays?

People are surprised if he doesn't do work. What's the point of working 80 hours a week in your 30's , 40's and 50's if you're still working weekends in your 70's?

Maybe he enjoys his work more than whatever else he'd be doing with that time.

 

[thecatch]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

Pretty sure most jurisdictions would consider that unethical. 

 

[Gawain]

People are surprised if he doesn't do work. What's the point of working 80 hours a week in your 30's , 40's and 50's if you're still working weekends in your 70's?

Read Otis's post. People who end up doing well and keeping up with billables generally enjoy to love the work. No one's able to survive the grind and be in a position to bill in their 70's if they hated billing in their 30's.

 

[Aerial Assault]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

That's . . . not how it works, or at least not how it's supposed to.  And it's why I generally would not charge for short e-mails of an administrative, scheduling, clerical, or merely confirmatory nature.  If I would bill the 0.1, it really took me six minutes.  I would also always round down, not up.  This pays off in the long run.  

 

[kutta]

That's . . . not how it works, or at least not how it's supposed to.  And it's why I generally would not charge for short e-mails of an administrative, scheduling, clerical, or merely confirmatory nature.  If I would bill the 0.1, it really took me six minutes.  I would also always round down, not up.  This pays off in the long run.  

It's how it works for him

So what do you do if you write a 3 minute e-mail regarding a case?

ETA: I did a quick Google search, and this is the first page that comes up. All these guys say they do the same thing:

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/normal-attorney-fee-for-emails-and-text-messages--1693767.html

 

[sbonomo]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

These are the people that give the industry a bad name.  I work with many law firms big and small and can give you a few of my biggest pet peeves.  Constantly needing 2-3 people on a call.  I don't need your two partners on a call where i am asking you a question.  I certainly do not need to pay for all three of you.  Bringing 2-3 people to meetings/lunches then billing me for it (see above).  Any finally, probably my biggest pet peeve is Sr Partners billing time (typically these guys are over $1M per hour) checking partners work.  If a partner or Sr Attorney needs that much oversight why am i paying them $600-$800 per hour for them.  I believe, and others may refute, that they are just adding time in too projects so they get their hours without actually adding any value.   

 

[Aerial Assault]

It's how it works for him

So what do you do if you write a 3 minute e-mail regarding a case?

ETA: I did a quick Google search, and this is the first page that comes up. All these guys say they do the same thing:

https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/normal-attorney-fee-for-emails-and-text-messages--1693767.html

Oh, I wasn't challenging you or him, GB.  Perhaps I shouldn't have commented at all.  But to answer your question, I would not bill at all for a three-minute e-mail. 

 

[Zegras11]

These are the people that give the industry a bad name.  I work with many law firms big and small and can give you a few of my biggest pet peeves.  Constantly needing 2-3 people on a call.  I don't need your two partners on a call where i am asking you a question.  I certainly do not need to pay for all three of you.  Bringing 2-3 people to meetings/lunches then billing me for it (see above).  Any finally, probably my biggest pet peeve is Sr Partners billing time (typically these guys are over $1M per hour) checking partners work.  If a partner or Sr Attorney needs that much oversight why am i paying them $600-$800 per hour for them.  I believe, and others may refute, that they are just adding time in too projects so they get their hours without actually adding any value.   

So you are saying that Otis probably bills like 100 hours a day?

 

[sbonomo]

So you are saying that Otis probably bills like 100 hours a day?

  I have no idea how Otis handles his billing.  

 

[Warrior]

Maybe he enjoys his work more than whatever else he'd be doing with that time.

yikes.

 

[Warrior]

(typically these guys are over $1M per hour)

This can't possibly be true.

 

[James Daulton]

One key is how hours are billed. I have a buddy who is a lawyer, and the minimum he charges is 0.1 hours. So every e-mail he sends he charges at least 0.1 hours. So if he types one sentence and it takes 30 seconds - that's 0.1 hours billed.

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

Yea, that seems really shady and unethical. 

 

[James Daulton]

This can't possibly be true.

Think he means per hour their rate would be over $1M.  I'd wager some are way higher than that.  A partner who bills $600/hr (know idea how this is possibly justified but I know it's not even a crazy high rate) would be billing at a rate of $1.25M if they received that rate 40hrs/week.  

 

[sbonomo]

This can't possibly be true.

Is that a question?  I have a bill in front of me from Bracewell in Texas right this moment with the senior partner billing at $1,025 per hour.  The Partner is $820, Associate is $595, and the para legal is $320 per hour.  No idea why we don't get a better rate but that is a completely different conversation.  I have never actually spoken to the Sr partner and this is a simple non-judicial foreclosure.  I may have to push back on this as noted earlier. 

 

[sbonomo]

This can't possibly be true.

Sorry, people on this board always get confused....In banking M = 1000 (roman numerals) not 1,000,000.  Hope that helps.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think the calculation is less precise than many like to admit.  I rarely bill for "correspondence".  If I'm corresponding about discovery or a motion, I just fold the correspondence into the larger task.  I probably habitually underreport my time (and considering the time I spend here, you can guess that I come nowhere near 2000 hours anyway).  But I'm no longer a big law associate (and when I was one, I was a bad one), so I'm not a great yardstick.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

We were on an hour flight to Vegas once and he billed 3 hours on that one hour flight.

This part, obviously, goes beyond ethics and constitutes criminal fraud. If found out, he'd certainly be fired from every law firm I've ever known, and his license would be suspended.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Is that a question?  I have a bill in front of me from Bracewell in Texas right this moment with the senior partner billing at $1,025 per hour.  The Partner is $820, Associate is $595, and the para legal is $320 per hour.  No idea why we don't get a better rate but that is a completely different conversation.  I have never actually spoken to the Sr partner and this is a simple non-judicial foreclosure.  I may have to push back on this as noted earlier. 

That does seem high for that kind of work.  I work as a consulting attorney at the DC office of a firm in the back-end of the Vault 100.  We've just completed a fee petition in a case where we were awarded our fees.  We had two partners on the case.  Both senior partners (one is the head of the firm's litigation practice).  Their rates were around $850/hour.  This was a $120 million case. 

In Bracewell's defense, I imagine your engagement letter specified the senior attorneys' rate, so while you could certainly try to negotiate a preferred rate (many clients do), you might have more luck pushing back against the number of hours expended.  Particularly if two partners were duplicating effort.   

 

[thecatch]

Is that a question?  I have a bill in front of me from Bracewell in Texas right this moment with the senior partner billing at $1,025 per hour.  The Partner is $820, Associate is $595, and the para legal is $320 per hour.  No idea why we don't get a better rate but that is a completely different conversation.  I have never actually spoken to the Sr partner and this is a simple non-judicial foreclosure.  I may have to push back on this as noted earlier. 

The rates aren’t unusual for a large firm in a big market. Big firms don’t do a lot of that type of work for this very reason though - it’s relatively simple stuff that can be done by smaller firms much more economically. 

 

[kutta]

This part, obviously, goes beyond ethics and constitutes criminal fraud. If found out, he'd certainly be fired from every law firm I've ever known, and his license would be suspended.

Is that true? I was under the impression that things like email and texts are hard to bill for, so there is a minimum for each one. The stuff I’ve read online suggest this too. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know what is standard.

 

[sbonomo]

The rates aren’t unusual for a large firm in a big market. Big firms don’t do a lot of that type of work for this very reason though - it’s relatively simple stuff that can be done by smaller firms much more economically. 

Our GC "recommended" that i use them.  Whatever, small potatoes vs some of my litigation heavy deals. 

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

This person made bad life choices. 

If you can't enjoy your Sundays when you're 75 and presumably have decades of mid 6 figures income in your history, it wasn't nearly worth it.

Meh, "work" for this guy is likely writing a few emails, reading a few documents, and making a call.

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Is that true? I was under the impression that things like email and texts are hard to bill for, so there is a minimum for each one. The stuff I’ve read online suggest this too. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know what is standard.

Local lawyer here that I went to high school with was indicted for some sort of fraud related to a similar billing practice. She was doing stuff for the State and when they figured it out the #### hit the fan. She did short time and a few years out is still on some sort of probation. She works in Pharma sales now...

 

[thecatch]

Our GC "recommended" that i use them.  Whatever, small potatoes vs some of my litigation heavy deals. 

It makes sense if they are your normal go to firm and this is kind of a one-off case where it’s not worth shopping the work around. I had a few of these types of matters as an associate in a big firm; they are nightmares because educating yourself on the relevant law and procedures takes a lot of time upfront if you don’t regularly do it, but the billing partner is not going to let you send a $20,000 bill to the client for relatively small matter, so there’s a lot of cutting of time involved. 

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I set up my own firm so I didn't have to answer to the billable god anymore.  That guy sucks.

But, mainly, I round down, don't charge for emails, rarely charge for letters. Almost always take money off of a bill when it looks big to me.

So, if I was on the phone with my client for 18 minutes...... I might bill for 15.  But I usually don't.  IF we are on the phone for 30?  I'm billing for it.  But I tell my clients all of that and usually tell them to email me unless they really need to hear the sound of my voice.  I can answer an email while I'm hold with a court or a bank and kill two birds.

Frankly, I've been working on a long term review of billing and accounts receivable because I am close to altering my billing practices and making everything flat fee.  I've come up with what amounts to a menu of legal services and their price.  No hourly, no surprise to the client, no headaches.  I think.  I'm not all the way there yet but I'm close.

 

[sbonomo]

It makes sense if they are your normal go to firm and this is kind of a one-off case where it’s not worth shopping the work around. I had a few of these types of matters as an associate in a big firm; they are nightmares because educating yourself on the relevant law and procedures takes a lot of time upfront if you don’t regularly do it, but the billing partner is not going to let you send a $20,000 bill to the client for relatively small matter, so there’s a lot of cutting of time involved. 

$20M, i wish.  They have banged in $70M and we have not foreclosed yet (this is a $3.0MM CRE secured RLOC - extremely straight forward).  Needless to say, regardless of my GC's recommendation i will not be using them for this or any other matter going forward.   

 

[Aerial Assault]

Our GC "recommended" that i use them.  Whatever, small potatoes vs some of my litigation heavy deals. 

Yeah, those rates are not out of bounds for that size firm, but are completely disproportionate to the work you described.  In an unrelated story, we should talk.   

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Is that true? I was under the impression that things like email and texts are hard to bill for, so there is a minimum for each one. The stuff I’ve read online suggest this too. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t know what is standard.

Rounding is common. My comment only relates to the part where you said he billed 3 hours for a 1 hour flight.  That's obviously fraud and theft.  In most cases, I don't bill for travel unless I'm doing work on the plane. If I'm traveling for client A, and bring some work I do on the plane for client B, I'm not going to double bill, and I think doing so is more than just an ethical violation.

 

[thecatch]

$20M, i wish.  They have banged in $70M and we have not foreclosed yet (this is a $3.0MM CRE secured RLOC - extremely straight forward).  Needless to say, regardless of my GC's recommendation i will not be using them for this or any other matter going forward.   

Yeah, the $20k number I just made up and on further reflection it’s much lower than we probably would have billed (unless we were on an alternative fee arrangement, which was more common for these matters). 

One caveat I’d throw out is if there is going to be any more complicated litigation that arises out of the foreclosure (or you are trying to enforce guarantees, etc), I’d be wary of letting a foreclosure mill law firm handle that aspect of the work. 

 

[Don Quixote]

Rounding is common. My comment only relates to the part where you said he billed 3 hours for a 1 hour flight.  That's obviously fraud and theft.  In most cases, I don't bill for travel unless I'm doing work on the plane. If I'm traveling for client A, and bring some work I do on the plane for client B, I'm not going to double bill, and I think doing so is more than just an ethical violation.

Yeah, billing three hours for a one hour flight seems illegal to me.  I always thought the rule was that if you are doing work for multiple clients within a 6 minute time frame that you can't break down, you just bill one of the clients for the 0.1 and leave the other client unbilled (with the theory that it will even out over the long run, as the billing may get reversed for the 0.1's the next time).

 

[dickey moe]

$320/hr for a paralegal. Nice racket.

 

[Tom Hagen]

Rounding is common. My comment only relates to the part where you said he billed 3 hours for a 1 hour flight.  That's obviously fraud and theft.  In most cases, I don't bill for travel unless I'm doing work on the plane. If I'm traveling for client A, and bring some work I do on the plane for client B, I'm not going to double bill, and I think doing so is more than just an ethical violation.

I could be way off but I took that to mean he was answering emails the entire flight and ended up with 3 billable hours due to rounding.

 

[James Daulton]

Good discussion in here fellows.  And not really any lawyer bashing.  Let's step that up please.   

And I concur that $320 for a paralegal that gets paid, what $40/hr, is insane and that firm should be told to pound sand about that. 

 

[kutta]

I could be way off but I took that to mean he was answering emails the entire flight and ended up with 3 billable hours due to rounding.

That’s what happened. But a lot of guys in here are saying that’s unethical. I don’t know what’s right or wrong, just reporting on what my buddy said.

 

[flranger]

Local lawyer here that I went to high school ....... She works in Pharma sales now...

 

[flranger]

I handle claims with a major carrier.  When we instituted a new billing software a few years ago, we found some defense counsel working more than 24 hours in a day....

 

[Zow]

I have a program on my case management system. Coincidentally, that program rounds up so I will sometimes go in and round it back down if I was only one minute or two above. 

The email dilemma really can be difficult.  I want to encourage my clients to email instead of call, so I try to be as generous as possible there.  Also, if I exchange a barrage of emails back and forth, I'll estimate my time instead of doing the ".1" However, generally, an email will take me a few minutes to review the case file -- especially on a weekend or evening -- so the .1 seems reasonable.  Also, in such instances, I'll sometimes forget to bill so if it's a heavily worked case I have no doubt that it "evens out" eventually since I almost certainly did work that I didn't bill for. 

 

[Max Power]

Not a lawyer, but found the charging .1 for emails discussion interesting.  I work for the federal govt and while I'm salaried, I'm paid hourly.  We break our hours out by 1/6 or every 10 minutes.  If I work 8 hours and 1 minute, I have to bill for 8hrs 10mins.  It's illegal for me to work off the clock.  That always makes government furloughs fun.

 

[Zow]

Frankly, I've been working on a long term review of billing and accounts receivable because I am close to altering my billing practices and making everything flat fee.  I've come up with what amounts to a menu of legal services and their price.  No hourly, no surprise to the client, no headaches.  I think.  I'm not all the way there yet but I'm close.

My firm actually started this way.  It's nice from a collection and client-relationship standpoint, but man can you take a bath in one if you error in your flat fee quote... 

 

[Phil Elliott]

Is that a question?  I have a bill in front of me from Bracewell in Texas right this moment with the senior partner billing at $1,025 per hour.  The Partner is $820, Associate is $595, and the para legal is $320 per hour.  No idea why we don't get a better rate but that is a completely different conversation.  I have never actually spoken to the Sr partner and this is a simple non-judicial foreclosure.  I may have to push back on this as noted earlier. 

Request a summary of all the discussions you had with the Sr Partner. If they produce anything, maybe another discussion is needed.