LeCharles Bentley to miss 2007 season (1 Viewer)

[chris1969]

chris1969

... I agree with pretty much everything except the QB at #3 or #4 part. The Browns need work on both OL and DL. The coin toss is crucial between the Browns and TB! If the Browns get that #3 choice and the Raiders draft Russell and Detroit takes Thomas, then the Browns have a huge opportunity to trade down. Lots of teams would be interested in trading up for Quinn, Johnson or Peterson. A bunch of those teams may be worried that TB will take 1 of those guys at #4. I say they pick up a vet QB for the short term to compete with Frye, trade down as much as possible in the first round and work on building both lines.

The only offensive lineman worthy of the top 3/4 slot is OLT Joe Thomas. We overspent for free agent OLT Bob Schafer last year, he's got a hefty signing bonus so the only way to get any ROI (Return On Investment) from him would be to move him to ORT and I'm not sure he's a road grader type of ORT to man the strong side and he cost too much to move inside and again, I do not believe he's a good fit for inside since I do not see him as a road grader. Then in looking at JT I have concerns, short wingspan gator arms means for him to seal the edge he was to be quicker than speed rushers where he has to move and set his feet and not many OLTs can do that and if you look at the amount of sacks given up by Joe Thomas, 8 1/5 in 34 games he didn't exactly shut out college DEs so I'd hate to place him an on island with Terrell Suggs/Joey Porter/Justin Smith just within our division. Bob Gallery had it all except the wingspan and if you look he doesn't have the quicks or reach to seal the edges. A total waste of a high pick and I would not risk the 3/4 on JT and no other offensive lineman rates that pick.

I don't think JT will be there, but even if he was, I still think we should trade down. I wouldn't mind seeing us pick up Levi Jones and a NT in round 1. As far as Shaeffer making big money, with a 5-6 mil cap figure he's already making RT money and not LT money. He's a RT playing LT. He played LT in Atlanta because Vick is left handed. He is primarily a run blocker and ATL ran the ball more successfully off the LT spot than anywhere else when he was there.

D-Line. Branch is the only name that fits and it would be an awfully high pick for an NT. If Branch has versatility and smarts not to mention the demeanor and coachability to seamlessly flop from a 34 NT/DE to a 43 DT/DE then that is the only way he justifies that high selection. But for those seeking insta-impact from that high a pick for a rookie NT/DT/DE they have to be kidding themselves. The Pat/Romeo 34 defense is complicated so Allan would only see the field in certain packages until Romeo felt comfy with him. Romeo didn't start Braylon for nearly half his rookie season. Kamerion was playing from the get-go but his resonsibilities were limited and although we know he's a solid pass rusher he still is not a complete OLB/DE hybrid in the Pat scheme where his respsonsibilities grativitate to also dropping in coverage not to mention taking on and shedding blockers in run defense, both areas that he has to work on. But the DLMen in the Pat defense are the first line of defense, literally. They have to make intant correct reads so the next line of defense, the LBers are making their reads symaltaneously so if the DLMan makes an incorrect read or gets beat then the linebackers and any safety support blows up.

If the Browns stayed at 3 or 4, this is who I think Phil takes. He did flop back and forth between NT and DE in the 3-4 and DT in the 4-3 while in Michigan. I agree that for pretty much any NT in this system, expecting him to be dominant in his first year is a lot to ask, but expecting Washington to play as much as he did last year at his age and make it through the season is even more to ask.

Branch is not as versatile as Richard Seymour since he's thirty pounds heavier and isn't as athletic/speedy. He'd be limted to obvious defensive packages, passing downs or short yardage/goal line where he doesn't need to read anything but merely reacts for his rookie season but he'd never be able to do the things that Seymour does, flop between 43/34 DT/DE and even drop in coverage. He would be an inside guy in any 43 packages and would be the NT in the 34 by default. I think he has the ability to move outside and play 34 DE but he'd never do the things that Richard Seymour does for the Pats so we are talking a very high pick for what would amount to an NT and that is a poor ROI for such a high draft pick.

Don't let his size fool ya. He does have some tremendous athletic ability. He was a 3 year starter on his HS varsity basketball team and returned 5 punts for TD's on his HS football team. Like I said he's already used to switching from NT to DT to DE in Michigan. He rushed for 342 yards on 45 carries, scoring three touchdowns and caught 15 passes for 251 yards and two touchdowns as a senior in HS.

QBs VS DLmen show an optimal sequential assembling of SB contending teams. Look at SB teams with highly drafted QBs, they did so a few years prior to their SB run. If they had highly drafted DLMen they typically drafted after thier QB was in place. I've done the homework and the only positions with any causal relationship with SB teams vis-a-vis high draft selections are QB and DL. One QB VS 3 or 4 starting DLmen wieghts value of QBs to highest importance. A QB needs time to develop but a DLman, Russell Maryland for example can be inserted into some defensive packages and get immediate but limited impact. Aikman taken three years prior to the first of Boys SB teams. Maryland was part of a heavy D-Line rotation. Troy was the lynchpin, Russell was a spoke in the D-Line wheel. QB takes longer before they make impact. I'll leave it there for now but I'm holding back on other points as to why a team should get their QB first and build the team from the quarterback position.

The Browns go through QB's like people go through socks. The last thing we need right now is to groom yet another rookie QB. A look at what Garcia was able to do with a supporting cast after he left the Browns is a prime example of why we need a OL in place before we think QB. Tim Couch could have been the guy, we'll never know for sure because our poor OL ruined his career. With the OL that we have now, whoever starts will not finish the season. Do you really want to throw yet another rookie QB into that situation? I agree that you have to have your QB established well before you make a Superbowl run, but I think we have to look at what we need to have a winning season first and groom our Superbowl QB later.

Playoffs? Did you say playoffs? Playoffs? Are you kidding me? Playoffs....

As far as Bentley goes, Browns fans knew that the odds of him playing next year were not good, but the news about another surgery is not promising. I agree on the AD pick being a poor fit for the Browns power running game! The funny thing is, while I expected the Fantasy Football guys projecting him to the Browns, there are a lot of Brown's fans projecting the same thing. It's not really a great comparison, given running styles, but picking AD will produce the same results as picking William Green did. They are both guys that wouldn't fit the current system.

AP is not a great fit for our blocking scheme but he's got skilz and I doubt that anyone doesn't think he can adapt. I see him leaning into his cuts and then see the POWER originating from his thighs where he puts his body at an angle and BAM POWER and expodes into his cuts but watch the tape and consentrate on how his legs/thighs independantly seem to anticipate the cut as he begins to lean in with his uppper body and how his lower body takes the hit and explodes. That style is picture perfect for a slide zone blocking scheme where Adrian could pick and chose his hole and make his power cut and explode out of it. But AP is nothing like William Green so I would not compare the two.

As far as Carlie Frye goes, the same argument can be made that he's stuck behind a poor OL and has no running game. I haven't given up on him yet, but he'll have to make huge strides in his decision making to keep the job. That's why bringing in a vet to compete with Frye is more important than a rookie that they'll try to protect for a year.

Charlie Frye has played in 23 games and has 18 starts under his belt, that is more than an adequate sample size to look at. Frye:

- third round draft selection, passed over by every NFL team two times, including the Cleveland Browns.

team produced 70 less offensive yards per game, RB's average per carry dropped a ful yard when he took over

- team finished dead last in scoring his first year

- Frye faced no competition for his starting job

- he added 23 lbs of musle

- Frye got KWII back off IR

- Frye got Braylon Edwards back off IR

- his QB passer rating went down from his rookie season

- his DPAR rating went down for two consecutive years

- his turnover streak carried over from his rookie season and is at 15 consecutive games of either throwing an interception or fumbling the ball away

- the team lost two more games with Frye starting 13 games

- the team finished second to last in the NFL for scoring

Frye continued making dumb rookie mistakes such as leading the league in tnterceptions thrown inside his own 20 yard line. The expectation is that a rookie would lead in that stat but each of last year's top rookies faired better than Frye.

AFC Leaders in Interceptions, In Own 20 (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1t Charlie Frye Cle 3

3t Vince Young Ten 2

7t Jay Cutler Den 1

7t Matt Leinart Ari 1

Another other dumb rookie error is working the ball all the way down the field to get inside the opponents twenty yard line and turning the ball over down there and Frye ranks second worst in the league.

AFC Leaders in Interceptions, In Opp 20 (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 5

2t Charlie Frye Cle 3

9t Vince Young Ten 1

Neither Cutler or Lienart were listed so I'm assuming they didn't throw any interceptions inside the opponents twenty yard line.

Then look to see what sort of talent that Frye brings to the table and compare it to other starting QBs and the rookie prospects of last season.

Jay Cutler had the equivilent of 4 complete games last year, Charlie Frye had 13 starts last year. Their is a stat that tracks the big passing plays made of over 25 yards. Here is the partial list from last year for the AFC.

AFC Leaders in Big Play Passes (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

Rank Player Team

1 Carson Palmer Cin 33

2 Philip Rivers SD 32

3 Peyton Manning Ind 31

4 Tom Brady NE 27

5 Ben Roethlisberger Pit 24

6 Chad Pennington NYJ 21

7 J.P. Losman Buf 19

8t Damon Huard KC 18

8t Steve McNair Bal 18

10 Vince Young Ten 16

15 Charlie Frye Cle 11

16t Jay Cutler Den 9

NFC

11t Matt Leinart Ari 17

Cutler had 9 plays of 25 yards or more in only four starts in his rookie season. Frye averaged less than one play of 25 yards or more per game, Cutler averaged over two per. Jay has a big time arm and the ability to make big plays, he has more talent than Charlie. Vince Young made 16 big plays as a rookie in his 13 starts but the above list does not list QB runs exceeding 25 yards so Young's big play ability is even higher. Lienart made the most big plays of the rookies, easily surpassed Frye.

The above demonstrates that Frye made less big plays and made more dumb rookie mistakes at crucial times during games but the next stat is why I can't take another wasted year with Frye.

I wanted to see how Frye performed at the most crucial time of the game. Crunch time, in the fourth quarter. I wanted to see if he stepped up and turned it on or if he turtled considering the Browns lost 12 games by 12 points or less and Frye had put us in a hole by not making big plays and by making horrible decisions at crucial times during games so if he could prove that he was able to overcome the mistakes and lack of innate talent by dominating crunch time then I'd be willing to see if he could develop. I found the following.

AFC Leaders in QB Rating, 4th Quarter (Thru games of Dec. 31, 2006)

(3.125 Att/Game)

Rank Player Team

1 Philip Rivers SD 116.6

2 Carson Palmer Cin 105.2

3 David Carr Hou 104.2

4 Damon Huard KC 101.2

5 Peyton Manning Ind 100.7

6 David Garrard Jac 95.6

7 J.P. Losman Buf 89.7

8 Tom Brady NE 85.0

9 Steve McNair Bal 83.2

10 Jake Plummer Den 80.5

15 Vince Young Ten 70.5

16 Matt Leinart Ari 58.8 *** (NFC I put him in to compare how the rookies compared)

17 Charlie Frye Cle 57.2

I did not see Cutler listed so he may not have qualified for this ranking. Frye was second only to Oakland QBs in the AFC and finished lower than all rookie QBs in his second year in the league. I have come to the conclusion that the Browns should not waste another second of developmental time on Frye but need to get a more talented QB prospect stat and begin developing them.

Anyone remember Drew Brees and his first few years? He was on a far better team than Charlie is right now and he had a running game to fall back on.

The QB crop is just as juicy as the RB crop next year and drafting a rookie QB to hold a clipboard all year is only good if your sure the same Head Coach is coming back. Romeo needs improvement now to keep his job now, he can't afford the luxury of spending this year's top 5 pick for next year.

The luxury is taking a risky and suspect Joe Thomas or a one-dimensional NT/DT or a RB who isn't an optimal fit for our scheme especially when considering the HUGE opportunity cost of bypassing the most important position on the field, the quarterback. Also if you look at the this time last year you'll find the exact same 'wait till next year' and we haven't seen enough of Charlie Frye and we can't afford to take a QB excuse. We can't afford the opportunity cost, the wasted development time, the draft opportunity to bypass a franchise QB in this draft.

How can you say any of these guys are gonna help the team less than a guy who won't play his first year. Unless you think they should start a rookie QB? Talk about taking a step back. I'm still hoping that we do the right thing and trade down.

One thing I'd like to add about the Orlando Brown thing is that not only were the Browns forced to eat Zeus' contract, but the league forced Carmen Policy to try and get Zeus to sign an agreement that he wouldn't sue the NFL. Up until that point, the blinded leader of an expansion OL was only talking about coming back and making the Browns a team to be proud of again. After he was approached by Carmen, he vowed that he would never play for us again and I think he picked Baltimore to piss the team brass off even more.

That is entirely correct, Policy was the whipping boi of Tags and of the other owners and had to do their bidding as Browns fans suffered just as we are suffering every year wasted without a legit and talented quarterback.

You could go hours and hours on how the Browns got screwed on the Expansion team, Bracie has just scratched the surface. I'm surprised that somebody hasn't written a book on the subject by now.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

chris1969

I don't think JT will be there, but even if he was, I still think we should trade down. I wouldn't mind seeing us pick up Levi Jones and a NT in round 1. As far as Shaeffer making big money, with a 5-6 mil cap figure he's already making RT money and not LT money. He's a RT playing LT. He played LT in Atlanta because Vick is left handed. He is primarily a run blocker and ATL ran the ball more successfully off the LT spot than anywhere else when he was there.

The Browns have traded down three times in the last thirty some odd years. Once back in 1979 we traded down with the Chargers and picked up an extra second round draft pick and drafted a RB named Larry Allen out of Florida who did absolutely nothing. The year previously in 1978 we had a bumper crop and got both TE Ozzie Newsome and LB Clay Mathews. Since we had Ozzie we made the trade with the Chargers so they could take Hall of Fame TE Kellen Winslow senior. The next time we traded down was years later in 1995 and a TE played a role in that one as well. Belichick was our coach and he wanted TE Kyle Brady. He was taken right before we chose and Bill had one of his infamous hissy fits and traded down with the 49ers so they could take a WR, forget his name. We ended up with LB Craig Powell from OSU. Powell sucked and the next year Art Modell left town and he took the extra first round draft pick that CLEVELAND should have had to take LB Ray Lewis. The last time we traded down in the first round was last year, one spot and only got a sixth round draft pick in return. Phil got his guy in Whimbley but Oz got his guy in N'gata. In other words, I have seen how infrequent and how terrible past trade downs have been for us and realize that trade downs simply do not happen in the fanciful ways that fans concoct them. When they do happen they rarely work out. The meat of this draft is in the top five picks. As a rule I wouldn't trade down in any draft unless I got a ransom in return but I especially would resist trading down in this draft.

If the Browns stayed at 3 or 4, this is who I think Phil takes. He did flop back and forth between NT and DE in the 3-4 and DT in the 4-3 while in Michigan. I agree that for pretty much any NT in this system, expecting him to be dominant in his first year is a lot to ask, but expecting Washington to play as much as he did last year at his age and make it through the season is even more to ask.

I put in that I felt he'd be our NT by default and the reason I stated that is because we have only Ethan Kelly backing up Ted Washington so if we got Branch he'd be locked in at NT and that would be it unless we drafted someone or picked up someone better and we both know that would not happen so a 3 or 4 pick for an NT is unherd of.

Don't let his size fool ya. He does have some tremendous athletic ability. He was a 3 year starter on his HS varsity basketball team and returned 5 punts for TD's on his HS football team. Like I said he's already used to switching from NT to DT to DE in Michigan. He rushed for 342 yards on 45 carries, scoring three touchdowns and caught 15 passes for 251 yards and two touchdowns as a senior in HS.

Speed, Seymor ran a sub 5.0 forty. Their is no way in heck Branch gets within a half second of Seymour's forty time. He can push back the pocket but that skill is wasted at NT since he'll constantly be double and triple teamed. The average draft position for first round NTs is not even in the top ten let alone the third pick in the draft. Caey Hampton of Pittsburgh was mid round pick, Vince Wilfork of the Pats was a late first round pick, the Rats drafted N'gata at 11 but they do not have to pigeon hole him only at NT because they have other options and their scheme is much different so he's not a true NT. If we take Branch at three or four he'd be the highest drafted NT in recent NFL history. By taking an NT that high we not only hugely overpay in terms of wasting a high draft choice but that also screws up our salary cap as we would be the only team in the NFL paying top three money to an NT whereas other clubs could devote their cap to more crucial positions, i.e., the most important in the league, quarterback.

The Browns go through QB's like people go through socks. The last thing we need right now is to groom yet another rookie QB. A look at what Garcia was able to do with a supporting cast after he left the Browns is a prime example of why we need a OL in place before we think QB. Tim Couch could have been the guy, we'll never know for sure because our poor OL ruined his career. With the OL that we have now, whoever starts will not finish the season. Do you really want to throw yet another rookie QB into that situation? I agree that you have to have your QB established well before you make a Superbowl run, but I think we have to look at what we need to have a winning season first and groom our Superbowl QB later.

Playoffs? Did you say playoffs? Playoffs? Are you kidding me? Playoffs....

The Browns have lacked QB talent, thus the Browns have had no stability at the most important position, quarterback. The solution is not to bury our head in the sand and say its too hard to get QB talent. Its not hard to get QB talent if it is there to pick in this draft. We cannot turn up our nose at a top QB talent. FWIW I'd take either Quinn or Russell and one is sure to be available to us. Per throwing another rookie QB in the mix you fail to note the only QBs we've taken in the draft other than Couch were low round draft picks. Low round draft picks fail on a much higher rate for one simple reason, they lack talent. Tim Couch was chosen by Dwight Clark who failed to do his D&D (Do Dilligence) because Tim Couch lacked comprehension of the game of football as he did not have a playbook in college so when he came to the Browns he was raw as steak tar tar. Couch also wasn't comfortable in the spotlight off the field. See Brady Quinn, two years emmersed in Charlie Wies' NFL three time SB winning offense. He has already mastered and produced with an NFL offense. He wears his celebrity like a second skin and has mastered his off-field leadership role, he also happens to be from Ohio and a big Browns fan so he'd be a PR and fan dream and I think he is as much of a sure thing as you can get from a top QB prospect. Russell is a stone cold physical freak. I'd take him so fast space and time would rip apart.

If we had a talented QB on the team and then built our O-Line over the next two years and added final touches along the way, we will be a legit playoff team in two years. We'll never be a legitimate playoff team with our current talent deficient QBs by adding an NT.

Anyone remember Drew Brees and his first few years? He was on a far better team than Charlie is right now and he had a running game to fall back on.

Drew Brees was taken at the top of the second round, he came into the league with more talent than Frye and just as much talent as a top QB prospect but was knocked down because of his lack or armstrenth and his height. He blew up as a QB because he mastered pre-snap reads and picked up speed in going thru his progressions, he was able to read his WR pass route breaks and alwasys had great timing as he got rid of the ball where it was supposed to be when its supposed to get there, he also had a good feel for pressure and an internal clock that worked and he never made the bone headed team killing plays that Frye has made. I don't believe that I've heard of another starting QB in NFL history who had a fifteen game turnover streak, still alive BTW going into the 07 season. Frye has a very poor pocket pressence, poor feel for pass rush pressure, no internal clock, thus why he takes a large amount of sacks that get unfairly blamed on the offensive line, see Derek Anderson who had zero sacks against Pittsburgh after Frye had 13 in his two games he squared off against the Steelers. Anderson got the ball off sooner and crisper with more authority and went thru his progressions like nobodies bidnezz.

Frye lacks the critical ability to read his WR break and constantly fails to get the ball where its supposed to be WHEN its supposed to get there. Many fail to understand what is happening and think he is getting the ball there late because his arm strength sucks, his arm is not great but that is not the problem. The problem is that he had already blew the play because he failed to properly read his WR break. That is a mega issue with Charlie as all passing games on built on flawless timing and he simply lacks that crucial ability.

Frye has leadership qualities and command of the huddle and toughness but he simply lacks critical QB skills, he simply does. The stats are symptoms of his lack of talent not the end product. Frye is woefully lacking as a starting NFL QB.

How can you say any of these guys are gonna help the team less than a guy who won't play his first year. Unless you think they should start a rookie QB? Talk about taking a step back. I'm still hoping that we do the right thing and trade down.

The biggest hole on the team is the lack of talent at QB. Its a huge hole and its not an insta-quick fix, it will take time but it will not be filled by Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson. Quick Anderson take. DA lacks the leadership and command of the huddle and the only big hit he took last year sent him to IR so I do not feel he has the toughness and he utterly lacks the 'IT' factor. NT isn't as quick of a fix as it appears that you seem to believe, go check out N'gata's rookie stats, then go check out Vince Wilfork's stats or Casey Hampton's rookie stats, hardly encouraging if you believe that even a top notch NT drafted high in the daft will waltz in as a starter and then just perform like a grizzled vet, they won't. Noting the need at NT is correct, overlooking the much larger need at QB is a fatal flaw.We desperately need to get real talent at the most important position on the field, the quarterback. The Pats won their first SB with Ted Washington as their NT who they had picked up off the waiver wire. The last dominating Browns teams in the eighties picked up their NT off of the waiver wire, Bob Golic. Note that both the Pats and those Browns teams have/had talented QBs. Tom Brady and Kosar but BK had the misfortune to go up against a HOF QB in John Elway, who was the first player taken in his draft underscoring that QB is the most important position and should be prioritized at the top of any team's need list if they lack a talented QB.

The Cleveland Browns lack talent at QB. Neither Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson is the answer.

 

[chris1969]

chris1969

I don't think JT will be there, but even if he was, I still think we should trade down. I wouldn't mind seeing us pick up Levi Jones and a NT in round 1. As far as Shaeffer making big money, with a 5-6 mil cap figure he's already making RT money and not LT money. He's a RT playing LT. He played LT in Atlanta because Vick is left handed. He is primarily a run blocker and ATL ran the ball more successfully off the LT spot than anywhere else when he was there.

The Browns have traded down three times in the last thirty some odd years. Once back in 1979 we traded down with the Chargers and picked up an extra second round draft pick and drafted a RB named Larry Allen out of Florida who did absolutely nothing. The year previously in 1978 we had a bumper crop and got both TE Ozzie Newsome and LB Clay Mathews. Since we had Ozzie we made the trade with the Chargers so they could take Hall of Fame TE Kellen Winslow senior. The next time we traded down was years later in 1995 and a TE played a role in that one as well. Belichick was our coach and he wanted TE Kyle Brady. He was taken right before we chose and Bill had one of his infamous hissy fits and traded down with the 49ers so they could take a WR, forget his name. We ended up with LB Craig Powell from OSU. Powell sucked and the next year Art Modell left town and he took the extra first round draft pick that CLEVELAND should have had to take LB Ray Lewis. The last time we traded down in the first round was last year, one spot and only got a sixth round draft pick in return. Phil got his guy in Whimbley but Oz got his guy in N'gata. In other words, I have seen how infrequent and how terrible past trade downs have been for us and realize that trade downs simply do not happen in the fanciful ways that fans concoct them. When they do happen they rarely work out. The meat of this draft is in the top five picks. As a rule I wouldn't trade down in any draft unless I got a ransom in return but I especially would resist trading down in this draft.

If the Browns stayed at 3 or 4, this is who I think Phil takes. He did flop back and forth between NT and DE in the 3-4 and DT in the 4-3 while in Michigan. I agree that for pretty much any NT in this system, expecting him to be dominant in his first year is a lot to ask, but expecting Washington to play as much as he did last year at his age and make it through the season is even more to ask.

I put in that I felt he'd be our NT by default and the reason I stated that is because we have only Ethan Kelly backing up Ted Washington so if we got Branch he'd be locked in at NT and that would be it unless we drafted someone or picked up someone better and we both know that would not happen so a 3 or 4 pick for an NT is unherd of.

Don't let his size fool ya. He does have some tremendous athletic ability. He was a 3 year starter on his HS varsity basketball team and returned 5 punts for TD's on his HS football team. Like I said he's already used to switching from NT to DT to DE in Michigan. He rushed for 342 yards on 45 carries, scoring three touchdowns and caught 15 passes for 251 yards and two touchdowns as a senior in HS.

Speed, Seymor ran a sub 5.0 forty. Their is no way in heck Branch gets within a half second of Seymour's forty time. He can push back the pocket but that skill is wasted at NT since he'll constantly be double and triple teamed. The average draft position for first round NTs is not even in the top ten let alone the third pick in the draft. Caey Hampton of Pittsburgh was mid round pick, Vince Wilfork of the Pats was a late first round pick, the Rats drafted N'gata at 11 but they do not have to pigeon hole him only at NT because they have other options and their scheme is much different so he's not a true NT. If we take Branch at three or four he'd be the highest drafted NT in recent NFL history. By taking an NT that high we not only hugely overpay in terms of wasting a high draft choice but that also screws up our salary cap as we would be the only team in the NFL paying top three money to an NT whereas other clubs could devote their cap to more crucial positions, i.e., the most important in the league, quarterback.

The Browns go through QB's like people go through socks. The last thing we need right now is to groom yet another rookie QB. A look at what Garcia was able to do with a supporting cast after he left the Browns is a prime example of why we need a OL in place before we think QB. Tim Couch could have been the guy, we'll never know for sure because our poor OL ruined his career. With the OL that we have now, whoever starts will not finish the season. Do you really want to throw yet another rookie QB into that situation? I agree that you have to have your QB established well before you make a Superbowl run, but I think we have to look at what we need to have a winning season first and groom our Superbowl QB later.

Playoffs? Did you say playoffs? Playoffs? Are you kidding me? Playoffs....

The Browns have lacked QB talent, thus the Browns have had no stability at the most important position, quarterback. The solution is not to bury our head in the sand and say its too hard to get QB talent. Its not hard to get QB talent if it is there to pick in this draft. We cannot turn up our nose at a top QB talent. FWIW I'd take either Quinn or Russell and one is sure to be available to us. Per throwing another rookie QB in the mix you fail to note the only QBs we've taken in the draft other than Couch were low round draft picks. Low round draft picks fail on a much higher rate for one simple reason, they lack talent. Tim Couch was chosen by Dwight Clark who failed to do his D&D (Do Dilligence) because Tim Couch lacked comprehension of the game of football as he did not have a playbook in college so when he came to the Browns he was raw as steak tar tar. Couch also wasn't comfortable in the spotlight off the field. See Brady Quinn, two years emmersed in Charlie Wies' NFL three time SB winning offense. He has already mastered and produced with an NFL offense. He wears his celebrity like a second skin and has mastered his off-field leadership role, he also happens to be from Ohio and a big Browns fan so he'd be a PR and fan dream and I think he is as much of a sure thing as you can get from a top QB prospect. Russell is a stone cold physical freak. I'd take him so fast space and time would rip apart.

If we had a talented QB on the team and then built our O-Line over the next two years and added final touches along the way, we will be a legit playoff team in two years. We'll never be a legitimate playoff team with our current talent deficient QBs by adding an NT.

Anyone remember Drew Brees and his first few years? He was on a far better team than Charlie is right now and he had a running game to fall back on.

Drew Brees was taken at the top of the second round, he came into the league with more talent than Frye and just as much talent as a top QB prospect but was knocked down because of his lack or armstrenth and his height. He blew up as a QB because he mastered pre-snap reads and picked up speed in going thru his progressions, he was able to read his WR pass route breaks and alwasys had great timing as he got rid of the ball where it was supposed to be when its supposed to get there, he also had a good feel for pressure and an internal clock that worked and he never made the bone headed team killing plays that Frye has made. I don't believe that I've heard of another starting QB in NFL history who had a fifteen game turnover streak, still alive BTW going into the 07 season. Frye has a very poor pocket pressence, poor feel for pass rush pressure, no internal clock, thus why he takes a large amount of sacks that get unfairly blamed on the offensive line, see Derek Anderson who had zero sacks against Pittsburgh after Frye had 13 in his two games he squared off against the Steelers. Anderson got the ball off sooner and crisper with more authority and went thru his progressions like nobodies bidnezz.

Frye lacks the critical ability to read his WR break and constantly fails to get the ball where its supposed to be WHEN its supposed to get there. Many fail to understand what is happening and think he is getting the ball there late because his arm strength sucks, his arm is not great but that is not the problem. The problem is that he had already blew the play because he failed to properly read his WR break. That is a mega issue with Charlie as all passing games on built on flawless timing and he simply lacks that crucial ability.

Frye has leadership qualities and command of the huddle and toughness but he simply lacks critical QB skills, he simply does. The stats are symptoms of his lack of talent not the end product. Frye is woefully lacking as a starting NFL QB.

How can you say any of these guys are gonna help the team less than a guy who won't play his first year. Unless you think they should start a rookie QB? Talk about taking a step back. I'm still hoping that we do the right thing and trade down.

The biggest hole on the team is the lack of talent at QB. Its a huge hole and its not an insta-quick fix, it will take time but it will not be filled by Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson. Quick Anderson take. DA lacks the leadership and command of the huddle and the only big hit he took last year sent him to IR so I do not feel he has the toughness and he utterly lacks the 'IT' factor. NT isn't as quick of a fix as it appears that you seem to believe, go check out N'gata's rookie stats, then go check out Vince Wilfork's stats or Casey Hampton's rookie stats, hardly encouraging if you believe that even a top notch NT drafted high in the daft will waltz in as a starter and then just perform like a grizzled vet, they won't. Noting the need at NT is correct, overlooking the much larger need at QB is a fatal flaw.We desperately need to get real talent at the most important position on the field, the quarterback. The Pats won their first SB with Ted Washington as their NT who they had picked up off the waiver wire. The last dominating Browns teams in the eighties picked up their NT off of the waiver wire, Bob Golic. Note that both the Pats and those Browns teams have/had talented QBs. Tom Brady and Kosar but BK had the misfortune to go up against a HOF QB in John Elway, who was the first player taken in his draft underscoring that QB is the most important position and should be prioritized at the top of any team's need list if they lack a talented QB.

The Cleveland Browns lack talent at QB. Neither Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson is the answer.

Wow! I really liked your first post, but since that you only seem to bend facts to support your opinion. You got major Quinn man-love and nobody is gonna sway you. I already said a rookie NT in this system is not gonna dominate first year, but at least we have a guy to relieve Washington for a year. If your rookie QB is gonna succeed, he better not see the field on this team this year. I talk about trading down and you mention what we did in the 70's and Belechick as if it has any relevance on us today. You are basing your NT argument on a NT not being able to run a sub 5 40. It's pretty obvious you want us to draft Quinn and start him week 1 and he'll save our season and win us a Superbowl this year. You ignore our OL and DL and promote QB because that will take our losing team to the Superbowl. Houston tried that with Carr (who I wouldn't mind picking up for a 4th round choice) we tried it with Couch, JAX tried it with Leftwich... I'll do you one better. If the Colts suddenly called us and said they would trade Peyton Manning for all our draft picks this year, we'd still be hard pressed to manage a winning season. Your argument on the Frye vs Brees thing makes me laugh.

Drew Brees was taken at the top of the second round, he came into the league with more talent than Frye and just as much talent as a top QB prospect but was knocked down because of his lack or arm strength and his height

Does Drew Brees situation sound like a QB from the Browns that you know?I doubt I'll argue much more in this thread, because it's pretty much a given that your really not open to the idea that you may be wrong.

You do seem to know your facts, but either you can't understand the impact, or you are gonna use them politically to prove your point. Either way it's not worth much more of my time.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I think Bracie Smathers is one of:

A) Brady Quinn's agent

B) Brady Quinn's mom

C) Brady Quinn

Wow. Talk about a man crush.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Wow! I really liked your first post, but since that you only seem to bend facts to support your opinion. You got major Quinn man-love and nobody is gonna sway you. I already said a rookie NT in this system is not gonna dominate first year, but at least we have a guy to relieve Washington for a year.

We lack talent at QB. That is the most pressing need on the team. I presented s solid case. You attacked me. That fallacy of logic is called ad homenin reasoning. Basically ignore a solid argument because it beats yours and divert the argument into a personal attack in an attempt to discredit the person rather than take on the superior argument. I addressed every point you brought up. I said Branch would be an NT with Cleveland. You know that we have no other NT prospects on the team and he would get pigeon holed there. As our only NT he would become the highest drafted/paid NT in the game today. I said Branch would not be a hybrid NT/DE/DT as is Richard Seymour and my cae was based on the fact that he would be stuck at NT and brought up that he is not the athlete of Richard Seymour is and his lack of speed proves that. You said we need immediate impact and I showed the top drated NTs have shown no immediate impact. You did not address my points, that we lack QB talent, that the lack of QB talent is our biggest problem, that we can addess QB in this draft.

If your rookie QB is gonna succeed, he better not see the field on this team this year.

I specifically addressed that saying I would take a QB and sit him for as long as we could.

I talk about trading down and you mention what we did in the 70's and Belechick as if it has any relevance on us today.

Trade downs are infrequent and rarely work out as planned. You can accept the truth or not.

You are basing your NT argument on a NT not being able to run a sub 5 40.

You suggested Allan Branch would make an immediate impact trying to insinuate that he is a Richard Seymour type of player and said Branch played basketball. Branch is not a Richard Seymour type of athlete. Many players also play basketball, for instance, Tim Couch played basketball at an All American level, your response should be, who cares? Guess what my response to your side note of Allan Branch playing B-Ball? Not much of a supporting argument. Lack of speed is lack of speed. Lack of opportunity to play any other position other than NT is a fact. Branch would be placed at NT by default with the Browns. No top drafted NT has made an immediate impact. Allan would be pigeon holed as an NT and would become the highest drafted and paid NT in the game strapping the team with a burden on our salary cap. You did not address how to improve the offense. Using a high first round pick on another defender will do nothing addess the offense. Last year three of our top four picks were devoted to defense as our offense languished as the worst scoring in the league over the last two years with a talent deficient QB. Our lack of offense is a direct result of our lack of QB talent. NT is far from our most pressing need.

It's pretty obvious you want us to draft Quinn and start him week 1 and he'll save our season and win us a Superbowl this year.

Even you must realize that Frye is the problem. Instead of refuting even one point I had brought up critiquing Frye's talent deficient game you use the straw man fallacy where you prop up a fake argument and knock it down and then thump your chest in mock triumph. You couldn't address the facts I presented concerning Frye's game, you didn't even try so you must know he is the problem.

You ignore our OL and DL and promote QB because that will take our losing team to the Superbowl.

I addressed your O-line and D-line arguments. I correctly note the biggest problem on the team is the lack of QB talent, you ignore it and attack instead.

Houston tried that with Carr (who I wouldn't mind picking up for a 4th round choice) we tried it with Couch, JAX tried it with Leftwich... I'll do you one better. If the Colts suddenly called us and said they would trade Peyton Manning for all our draft picks this year, we'd still be hard pressed to manage a winning season.

The Colts got their QB first and built the team around him. They did not go for the quick fix. No team trades away a HOF QB in prime because the QB is the most important position on the field, even suggesing that is a fantasy but in trying to attack me you prove the value of the best QB in the game and at the same time our lack of QB talent has no quick fix. Correcting the biggest issue on the team will take time and effort. Those afraid to acknowledge the problem and the time and effort needed to fix it want the quick fix and are in denial. Those wanting to make a trade for David Carr are in denial.

Your argument on the Frye vs Brees thing makes me laugh.

You made the argument that Frye was like two time Pro Bowl QB Drew Brees.

Does Drew Brees situation sound like a QB from the Browns that you know?

Again you try to hint Charlie Frye should be compared to a two time Pro Bowl QB in his prime. You have not acknowledged one single point of the side by side comparision that I made of Frye to Brees.

I doubt I'll argue much more in this thread, because it's pretty much a given that your really not open to the idea that you may be wrong.You do seem to know your facts, but either you can't understand the impact, or you are gonna use them politically to prove your point. Either way it's not worth much more of my time.

Ignoring facts of a strong case then attacking the person doesn't denegrate truth they bring. Lack of talent at quarterback is the Cleveland Browns biggest problem and most pressing need that needs addressing in this draft and our top pick should be devoted to addressing out biggest need and no one should be looking for quick fixes with our top need only because they want to indulge in fanciful trade down fantasies and draft yet another defender.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

The Browns beat the Steelers on a bad call from the officials in week 3 of the 2000 season (one of their two wins over Pittsburgh in this decade.) They did not fess up to this after the game however, and didn't renounce the win and ask the league office to change the record books. As a result of accepting this tainted "victory," the football gods have cursed every first round draft pick they've had since.

Incidentally, here are the Browns' first round picks going back to 1986.

2006 13 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State

2005 3 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan

2004 6 6 Kellen Winslow Jr TE Miami (FL)

2003 21 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame

2002 16 16 William Green RB Boston College

2001 3 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida

2000 1 1 Courtney Brown DE Penn State

1999 1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky

1995 30 30 Craig Powell LB Ohio State

1994 9 9 Antonio Langham DB Alabama

1994 29 29 Derrick Alexander WR Michigan

1993 14 14 Steve Everitt C Michigan

1992 9 9 Tommy Vardell RB Stanford

1991 2 2 Eric Turner DB UCLA

1989 13 13 Eric Metcalf RB Texas

1988 21 21 Clifford Charlton LB Florida

1987 5 5 Mike Junkin LB Duke

How many of these guys have had an impact (positively) for Cleveland?

 

[chris1969]

OK you got me to bite again...

We lack talent at QB. That is the most pressing need on the team. I presented s solid case. You attacked me. That fallacy of logic is called ad homenin reasoning. Basically ignore a solid argument because it beats yours and divert the argument into a personal attack in an attempt to discredit the person rather than take on the superior argument.

You've stated that at 23 games games, you've written off Frye as a viable QB and after 5 games and 3 of those as a starter you've written off DA as well. You've stated that it's plenty of time to judge a QB and expect that we all need to follow suit. I threw Brees' name out to show you a similar situation, a guy that fell lower than expected in the draft that everyone said was small and lacked arm strength. My point was that he was on a good team and was written off too early. In fact they drafted his replacement before he made that first pro-bowl. Frye is not on a good team. It's funny you use a political term like "ad hominem reasoning" given the political arguments of your other posts, although you spelled it wrong. You need to have a substantial argument by definition, but you seem to have a lot of opinions supported by mostly ill-fitting arguments and statistics. Reread my last post and I think you'll find it was less a personal attack and more resigning argument to someone that isn't gonna change his mind. You keep saying that QB is our biggest need! I'm saying it's on the list, but not on the top. How's this for a need? Currently LeChuck is out for the year and Fraley is a UFA, How about a guy that can snap the QB the football. Now that's a need! Now before you start your Kalil argument, I'm not saying we draft a center in the first round, although if we did trade down I wouldn't rule it out.Your reasoning on not drafting Branch is baffling. On one hand He's not the most pressing need, on the other hand the lack of depth at NT, pigeon holes him at NT (sounds like a need to me, and is he still stuck there while Washington is actually on the field?). On another hand, he may not have the ability to switch from 3-4 NT to 3-4 DE to 4-3 DT even though he's already done that at Michigan. And on yet another hand he's doomed to failure because he's not Richard Seymour. I pointed out that he played basketball in HS to show that he had endurance. Since you were using his size as a bad thing, it seemed to be a good idea to show that he wasn't gonna get tired out during a game. A basketball game is like doing a thousand sprints back to back. You seemed to overlook those HS football stats I posted though. A would say that any 300 plus pound football player that managed 5 punt returns for TD's might have enough football speed to play DE, but that's just me.As far as your spending a #1 draft pick on a guy that's gonna sit all year plan, I think my Romeo and Phil need to win now to keep their job argument holds up enough to skip to the next thing.As far as your trade downs are infrequent argument, they pretty much happen every year. As frequent as trading up happens. As far as trade downs not working go, I might as well stick to the Brees thing and remind you that the Chargers traded down to ATL and got LT and then got Brees in the second round. In any trade, you pretty much have a 50/50 chance of succeeding, I'm sure a guy that only deals with logic such as yourself can understand the math behind "We got better, We got worse, or It was a push." As far as The Colts getting Peyton Manning first and then building around him, I'll just name some guys that were already there when they drafted him. Zack Crockett, Ken Dilger, Marshall Faulk, Chris Gardoki, Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Ironhead, Pollard, Torrence Small, Tyrone Poole, and those are the guys I can think of on the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.As far as the next point, Your the one that came up with the Seymour comparison not me. Seymour love is almost equal to Quinn love in this thread.You know what, I just figured this out! Your a HS or College kid taking your first debate class. It makes sense now! Repeating the same themes over and over like advertising. The political type statements to prove your points. The repeating over and over again about how much your using logic and reasoning. I should have picked up on the ad hominem reasoning thing. Talking about your "strong case" and acting like you have chicken salad instead of chicken ####. I can move on now that I've figured out that you aren't on drugs, you just have a limited scope of player analysis that will broaden over time. I'll close with your top 5 guys are the only guys worth taking statement. I am very far from being a draft expert, but you can find plenty of them in the Shark Pool. You make a statement that the top 5 are elite in this draft an then whittle that list down to 1 player, but even I know enough about past drafts to tell you that this one is weak at the top but deep in the first 2 rounds, especially at DL and WR. The closest thing to an elite guy that this draft has is CJ and I don't think he rates as well as Braylon did before we drafted him. That all could change in the combine, but the 2 of us can only argue about what's true today. I'll let one of the other guys educate you about where the tiers are, but I'm sure others will give you enough data to see that the smart move would be to trade down this year. I don't think I'll be baited into another post in this thread unless I feel it can be productive, but I'm sure that if you want to hold steadfast, that someone else will pick up where I left off.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

... I threw Brees' name out to show you a similar situation, a guy that fell lower than expected in the draft that everyone said was small and lacked arm strength. My point was that he was on a good team and was written off too early. In fact they drafted his replacement before he made that first pro-bowl.

Brees not only lacked arm strength, he was/is short for a QB. Brees was selected with the first pick of the second round. Charlie Frye is 6'3 and was selected after three players had been selected in the third round. When Brees was taken by the Chargers they had the worst record in the NFL and had the top pick of the draft but traded it to Atlanta so they could take Mike Vick. So in saying that Frye was like Drew Brees at the time that each player was taken in the draft you are incorrect. In saying that Brees, got missed the first round by one slot and who got knocked down the draft board due to his lack of height and armstength is akin to Charlie Frye was is of prototypical NFL QB height and who was taken over a full round later is incorrect. By saying that Frye is on a poor team and insinuating that Brees was taken by a more talented team you are incorrect. The Chargers selected Drew Brees in 2001, they had the worst record in the NFL leading up to the 2001 draft when they drafted Drew Brees. 1997 4 12 0 5th AFC West --

1998 5 11 0 5th AFC West --

1999 8 8 0 3rd AFC West --

2000 1 15 0 5th AFC West --

They increased their win total by four games but still had a poor record the next year after Brees came on board so the Charger team was bad and your point is incorrect.

In saying that they wrote him off too early, they did not write him off. They highly prioritized the QB position and got five starting seasons out of Drew Brees with one Pro Bowl post season season.

2001 5 11 0 5th AFC West --

2002 8 8 0 3rd AFC West --

2003 4 12 0 4th AFC West --

2004 12 4 0 1st AFC West Lost Wild Card Playoffs (Jets) 20-17

2005 9 7 0 3rd AFC West --

They drafted Rivers in 2004 and were able to sit him on the bench. They kept Brees in 2005 but he got injured and were able to make a smooth transition to Rivers who not only went to the Pro Bowl but propelled the Chargers to their best record EVER in his first year as starter.

2006 14 2 0 1st AFC West Lost Divisional Playoffs (Patriots) 24-21

Rivers was taken higher in the draft, he was deemed a superior QB prospect coming in just as Brees was deemed a suprior QB prospect coming in over Charlie Frye.

You keep saying that QB is our biggest need! I'm saying it's on the list, but not on the top.

We simply disagree. Also I qualify my statement by saying QB is our single greatest positional need that we can fill in this draft. I qualify my statement because many cry that DEFENSE is our top need or OFFENSIVE LINE is our top need but by using 11 players to 1 or 5 players to 1 they are being disengenious to say the least so I qualify my statement and state QB is our single biggest need that we can fill in this draft.

How's this for a need? Currently LeChuck is out for the year and Fraley is a UFA, How about a guy that can snap the QB the football. Now that's a need! Now before you start your Kalil argument, I'm not saying we draft a center in the first round, although if we did trade down I wouldn't rule it out.

We have a need at center, its not our biggest need. Hank Fraley started for the Eagles when they went to the Super Bowl, he can snap the ball. Dan Koppen was drafted in the fifth round and has started on Super Bowl teams for the Patriots. The perrennial Pro Bowl center for the Broncos, forget his name, was not drafted. Matt Birk, perrennial Pro Bowl center for the Vikings was a fifth round pick. The perrennial Pro Bowl center for the Super Bowl Bears was a fifth rounder. You may see center as a crucial need that has to be drafted high, I do not and I know centers can and are typically found later in the draft.

Your reasoning on not drafting Branch is baffling. On one hand He's not the most pressing need, on the other hand the lack of depth at NT, pigeon holes him at NT (sounds like a need to me, and is he still stuck there while Washington is actually on the field?). On another hand, he may not have the ability to switch from 3-4 NT to 3-4 DE to 4-3 DT even though he's already done that at Michigan. And on yet another hand he's doomed to failure because he's not Richard Seymour. I pointed out that he played basketball in HS to show that he had endurance. Since you were using his size as a bad thing, it seemed to be a good idea to show that he wasn't gonna get tired out during a game. A basketball game is like doing a thousand sprints back to back. You seemed to overlook those HS football stats I posted though. A would say that any 300 plus pound football player that managed 5 punt returns for TD's might have enough football speed to play DE, but that's just me.

NT is a need, its not our biggest, QB is.

As far as your spending a #1 draft pick on a guy that's gonna sit all year plan, I think my Romeo and Phil need to win now to keep their job argument holds up enough to skip to the next thing.

The job of both the GM and head coach is to win the Super Bowl. If the team isn't capable of winning the Super Bowl then their job is to build the team which gives us the best chance to win the Super Bowl. If they are instead only concerned about taking heat from fans who fail to comprehend how to build a Super Bowl and cravenly cave into the will of fans who just want to win now without any thought of winning the Super Bowl then they should both tender their resignations now.

As far as your trade downs are infrequent argument, they pretty much happen every year. As frequent as trading up happens.

They are infrequent and rarely work out as planned. If you have solid evidene to the contrary then please share it. I made my statement and backed it up with factual evidence.

As far as The Colts getting Peyton Manning first and then building around him, I'll just name some guys that were already there when they drafted him. Zack Crockett, Ken Dilger, Marshall Faulk, Chris Gardoki, Tarik Glenn, Marvin Harrison, Ironhead, Pollard, Torrence Small, Tyrone Poole, and those are the guys I can think of on the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.

And they didn't build their Super Bowl team around Zack Crockett or Ken Dilger or Marshall Faulk or Torrence Small, they built their Super Bowl team around Peyton Manning. They got the QB first, and built around him.Quarterback is the greastest single need of the Cleveland Browns and we can fill it in this draft. You should ease your roll with the melty personal rants. Doesn't help your football arguments at all.