Let's talk about illegal immigration (1 Viewer)

[RCon]

I think we've proven, in several threads now, that timschochet has no interest in compromise on this issue.

Edit: In his defense, as he points out, this is all theoretical, since none of us are elected officials deciding these matters.

This is not true. According to you (and now the Commish) unless I am willing to shut down all future illegal immigration, I am unwilling to compromise.

Sure, I could agree that from this point forward, we'll deport anybody who comes here illegally. But the reality is we can't, because they'll continue to sneak in. And in 20 or 30 years we will have several million again so we'll have to do the same thing. That's the reality.

No, according to me, you're unwilling to compromise because you haven't offered anything that "my side" wants and doesn't already have.

I suggested removal of birthright citizenship, you refuse. I suggested a drop-dead date for the amnesty, after which time, deportations would be automatic (in other words, just an enforcement of existing laws), you refused. I suggested a massive crackdown on businesses who hire illegals, you refused.

Tell me what you would offer that creates a compromise? To date, you've demanded a bunch of things in this faux deal, but have offered nothing.

 

[RCon]

So... any movement yet?

 

[Eminence]

"We're going to build a wall."

 

[The Commish]

I think we've proven, in several threads now, that timschochet has no interest in compromise on this issue.

Edit: In his defense, as he points out, this is all theoretical, since none of us are elected officials deciding these matters.

This is not true. According to you (and now the Commish) unless I am willing to shut down all future illegal immigration, I am unwilling to compromise.

Sure, I could agree that from this point forward, we'll deport anybody who comes here illegally. But the reality is we can't, because they'll continue to sneak in. And in 20 or 30 years we will have several million again so we'll have to do the same thing. That's the reality.

You're doing it again Tim.....in the minimal discussion you engaged with me it was pretty simple. I asked if you got everything in your "compromise" then what? You responded that we'd probably be back in the same situation. We get in these situations because we don't execute the laws on the books. At some point, that's what has to happen otherwise you aren't interested in any sort of compromise. You can't have it both ways. I made no comments as you assert....not even close.

This is the reason I call on you interested in having any sort of legit discussion about things like this. If you aren't willing to draw a line and say we have to exercise our laws on the books, then "compromise" isn't in your vocabulary. It's a fake notion of nonsense. Own it....you want open borders. That's a fine position to take, but don't attempt to tiptoe around it by saying you would compromise. You won't because you aren't willing to execute the laws on the books (the very ones you "compromise" on) and tell people to pound sand if they don't go by the rules.

 

[Valjean]

Once again Governor Tim Schochet is explaining his position.

 

[The Commish]

 

[timschochet]

I think we've proven, in several threads now, that timschochet has no interest in compromise on this issue.

Edit: In his defense, as he points out, this is all theoretical, since none of us are elected officials deciding these matters.

This is not true. According to you (and now the Commish) unless I am willing to shut down all future illegal immigration, I am unwilling to compromise.Sure, I could agree that from this point forward, we'll deport anybody who comes here illegally. But the reality is we can't, because they'll continue to sneak in. And in 20 or 30 years we will have several million again so we'll have to do the same thing. That's the reality.

You're doing it again Tim.....in the minimal discussion you engaged with me it was pretty simple. I asked if you got everything in your "compromise" then what? You responded that we'd probably be back in the same situation. We get in these situations because we don't execute the laws on the books. At some point, that's what has to happen otherwise you aren't interested in any sort of compromise. You can't have it both ways. I made no comments as you assert....not even close.This is the reason I call on you interested in having any sort of legit discussion about things like this. If you aren't willing to draw a line and say we have to exercise our laws on the books, then "compromise" isn't in your vocabulary. It's a fake notion of nonsense. Own it....you want open borders. That's a fine position to take, but don't attempt to tiptoe around it by saying you would compromise. You won't because you aren't willing to execute the laws on the books (the very ones you "compromise" on) and tell people to pound sand if they don't go by the rules.

No, again Im sorry you misunderstood me. In exchange for legal recognition of those already here, I am willing to enforce the law with regard to new illegals. I amwilling to deport anyone else who shows up.

But I'm saying that my willingness to do so (assuming I write the laws) won't make a bit of difference in the long run because they're going to come anyhow and in 20 years we'll go through this all over again. So what? That's not a bad thing. We solve the problem for now, and in 20 years we solve it again. And in 20 years again. In the meantime we grow as a nation. We're not going to run out of room.

 

[timschochet]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

 

[RCon]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

 

[RCon]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Huh. Your link says something different than what you wrote.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The law - which Democrats and Republicans agreed to - allows for 675,000 persons per year to enter the country.

And no country can - by law - be permitted to have more than 12% of the total number.

The total for 2012 was 1,031,631. We are allowing 53% more immigration that the law allows. Mexico (at almost 150,000) has around 14+% of the legal total. Which is about right, and that is probably how Congress arrived at that 12% number, because that is to be expected, but it needs to be compared to the 29% number above.

 

[timschochet]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

 

[RCon]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

$100K fine per incident of hiring an illegal. Done.

 

[timschochet]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

Youre talking about the ones already here. The article refers to the ones coming now - since 2011, many more Asians than Mexicans.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

So why not suggest crafting a law that estimates how many people will actually be let into the country. Just be honest with the people.

Politicians at election time can say: "We will be increasing legal immigration by 100%."

And see how that goes.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

Youre talks my about the ones already here. The article refers to the ones coming now - since 2011, many more Asians than Mexicans.

How many countries in Asia? From Lebanon, to China, right?

Are we doing this racially (19th century style with 3 races) now? How radical can you get?

 

[RCon]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

Youre talking about the ones already here. The article refers to the ones coming now - since 2011, many more Asians than Mexicans.

For god's sake, your article is referring to immigration, not illegal immigration. When are you going to learn the difference?

 

[timschochet]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

$100K fine per incident of hiring an illegal. Done.

OK let me restate that. We can never enforce it effectively enough without ridiculous penalties that would cripple our economy. Hey I could end all gun violence too, by simply ignoring the 2nd Amendment and ordering everyone to turn in all their guns or face 30 years in jail. Within a few years, no gun violence!

 

[timschochet]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

Youre talking about the ones already here. The article refers to the ones coming now - since 2011, many more Asians than Mexicans.

For god's sake, your article is referring to immigration, not illegal immigration. When are you going to learn the difference?

Wctually the new study refers to both. And really there is no difference to me. But you knew that.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Most of the illegal immigrants coming to this country are now Asian, and most come by plane rather than from the southern border:

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/asian-immigrants-coming-hispanics-study-article-1.1098423

Tim, why don't you get some actual numbers.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf

Mexico by far is leading with 11 million immigrants. Mexico is our immigration "issue." Mexicans comprise a wopping 29+%. The next country of origin gets to 1.8 million. Mexican immigration is the issue - Not Asia, not Central America or South America, not Latinos, not Hispanics, Mexicans.

Youre talking about the ones already here. The article refers to the ones coming now - since 2011, many more Asians than Mexicans.

For god's sake, your article is referring to immigration, not illegal immigration. When are you going to learn the difference?

Wctually the new study refers to both.And really there is no difference to me. But you knew that.

Well then you won't be needing a law then, will you?

 

[timschochet]

I don't need one no. But hey I'm willing to compromise for Rich's sake! Because I'm that kind of good guy.

 

[RCon]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

$100K fine per incident of hiring an illegal. Done.

OK let me restate that. We can never enforce it effectively enough without ridiculous penalties that would cripple our economy.Hey I could end all gun violence too, by simply ignoring the 2nd Amendment and ordering everyone to turn in all their guns or face 30 years in jail. Within a few years, no gun violence!

Right, so you refuse to compromise. Seriously, make an offer that includes something, anything.

 

[RCon]

Actually, forget it. Your head is so far up your ### on this, you don't understand any of the points. Just go back to calling us racists.

 

[timschochet]

I'm confused. If we're actually enforcing the law, why would there be millions more illegals in 20 years? If we're allowing legal guest workers, why would there be millions of illegals?

Because we can never enforce it effectively enough.

$100K fine per incident of hiring an illegal. Done.

OK let me restate that. We can never enforce it effectively enough without ridiculous penalties that would cripple our economy.Hey I could end all gun violence too, by simply ignoring the 2nd Amendment and ordering everyone to turn in all their guns or face 30 years in jail. Within a few years, no gun violence!

Right, so you refuse to compromise. Seriously, make an offer that includes something, anything.

All right. If you're personally willing to take Jose in for a year I'll pay you $200 bucks. One time offer.

 

[RCon]

And stop starting threads about the subject. You don't want discussion, you just want to misinterpret data and lecture everyone else.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I don't need one no. But hey I'm willing to compromise for Rich's sake! Because I'm that kind of good guy.

Let's talk about illegal immigration

Beginning of thread.

Now :

...your article is referring to immigration, not illegal immigration. ...... really there is no difference to me. ...

 

[timschochet]

Actually, forget it. Your head is so far up your ### on this, you don't understand any of the points. Just go back to calling us racists.

According to Jon my head is already up Hillary's ###. I suppose I could move it to my own ### but that would take some effort at this point and anyhow I'm pretty comfy in here.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Actually, forget it. Your head is so far up your ### on this, you don't understand any of the points. Just go back to calling us racists.

Tim is now the one who is breaking up immigration racially, the yellow (all of Asia) vs the brown (all of 'down south') is how he has it right now. Very 1890's California, really.

 

[DallasDMac]

Actually, forget it. Your head is so far up your ### on this, you don't understand any of the points. Just go back to calling us racists.

And stop starting threads about the subject. You don't want discussion, you just want to misinterpret data and lecture everyone else.

From page two:

This is not the tone of someone looking for an actual discussion. This is the rhetoric of someone that has their mind made up or has an agenda.

It wasn't hard to figure out from reading post #1 in this thread.

 

[The Commish]

I think we've proven, in several threads now, that timschochet has no interest in compromise on this issue.

Edit: In his defense, as he points out, this is all theoretical, since none of us are elected officials deciding these matters.

This is not true. According to you (and now the Commish) unless I am willing to shut down all future illegal immigration, I am unwilling to compromise.Sure, I could agree that from this point forward, we'll deport anybody who comes here illegally. But the reality is we can't, because they'll continue to sneak in. And in 20 or 30 years we will have several million again so we'll have to do the same thing. That's the reality.

You're doing it again Tim.....in the minimal discussion you engaged with me it was pretty simple. I asked if you got everything in your "compromise" then what? You responded that we'd probably be back in the same situation. We get in these situations because we don't execute the laws on the books. At some point, that's what has to happen otherwise you aren't interested in any sort of compromise. You can't have it both ways. I made no comments as you assert....not even close.This is the reason I call on you interested in having any sort of legit discussion about things like this. If you aren't willing to draw a line and say we have to exercise our laws on the books, then "compromise" isn't in your vocabulary. It's a fake notion of nonsense. Own it....you want open borders. That's a fine position to take, but don't attempt to tiptoe around it by saying you would compromise. You won't because you aren't willing to execute the laws on the books (the very ones you "compromise" on) and tell people to pound sand if they don't go by the rules.

No, again Im sorry you misunderstood me. In exchange for legal recognition of those already here, I am willing to enforce the law with regard to new illegals. I amwilling to deport anyone else who shows up.

But I'm saying that my willingness to do so (assuming I write the laws) won't make a bit of difference in the long run because they're going to come anyhow and in 20 years we'll go through this all over again. So what? That's not a bad thing. We solve the problem for now, and in 20 years we solve it again. And in 20 years again. In the meantime we grow as a nation. We're not going to run out of room.

Are you willing to vote against those who don't uphold the law? This "who am I, I can't control any of this" approach doesn't really do much for the discussion as it's an obvious deflection. At some point, if you aren't willing to take a stand personally, the compromise doesn't mean much. If you're willing to vote against those who refuse to uphold our laws on the books then that's all that can be asked of us as individuals regardless of what impact to the big picture you may think it has or doesn't have.

To avoid putting words in your mouth an answer to this simple question would be appreciated. In 20 years, when we face this problem again your response would be___________________________________

 

[RCon]

What's sad is that timschochet doesn't recognize that he's actually arguing against himself. He wants unlimited, legal immigration, but he also wants businesses to be able to ignore minimum wage and other labor laws to hire them, putting them right back to illegal.

Not to mention, he's also arguing that we need a permanent underclass to support the economy.

 

[The Commish]

Rich, you're a quitter

 

[timschochet]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

 

[dparker713]

No industry needs or deserves labor at below minimum wage

 

[RCon]

So businesses would be allowed to hire foreign guest workers below minimum wage, but not hire citizens below minimum wage? How in the world does that make sense?

 

[The Commish]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

And what about those voted into office who don't enforce the laws as compromised above? Let's face it, that's the real issue here, right?

 

[The Commish]

Oddly enough, I don't have a problem with what you post here Tim, other than the first #2. I don't know what that is or why you'd want it. As far as the second #2, you wouldn't need it if you did #3 and #4, but that's a different discussion IMO.

 

[timschochet]

So businesses would be allowed to hire foreign guest workers below minimum wage, but not hire citizens below minimum wage? How in the world does that make sense?

Well I would be in favor of eliminating minimum wage for certain industries. But I'm open to suggestions here.

 

[timschochet]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

And what about those voted into office who don't enforce the laws as compromised above? Let's face it, that's the real issue here, right?

I guess vote them out. What do you suggest?

 

[The Commish]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

And what about those voted into office who don't enforce the laws as compromised above? Let's face it, that's the real issue here, right?

I guess vote them out. What do you suggest?

That's about all you, as an individual, can do.

 

[The Commish]

So businesses would be allowed to hire foreign guest workers below minimum wage, but not hire citizens below minimum wage? How in the world does that make sense?

Well I would be in favor of eliminating minimum wage for certain industries. But I'm open to suggestions here.

I don't really understand this concept/philosophy. Namely:

1. What criteria would be used to determine qualificaiton?

2. Why is it necessary in the first place? What's wrong with minimum wage the same for all?

 

[timschochet]

Because one of the main reasons for illegal

Immigration is that minimum wage creates a black market for certain industries; illegals come here to fill it. She long as this is not addressed there will Always be more illegal immigration no matter what else you do.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Because one of the main reasons for illegal

Immigration is that minimum wage creates a black market for certain industries; illegals come here to fill it. She long as this is not addressed there will Always be more illegal immigration no matter what else you do.

 

[cstu]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

 

[timschochet]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

 

[dparker713]

Because one of the main reasons for illegal

Immigration is that minimum wage creates a black market for certain industries; illegals come here to fill it. She long as this is not addressed there will Always be more illegal immigration no matter what else you do.

You have the supply and demand in this situation completely ### backwards.

 

[jonessed]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

He likes to over generalize.I'm not sure why it matters anyway. If he is unhappy about the way American citizenship is awarded he can work to eliminate the current system and replace it with a Central/South American lottery. Until then...