List the "franchise" QBs in the NFL (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

I don't want to compare these guys to each other, only to separate out the guys who are the franchise ones, the elite ones who you believe can lead your team to glory. Here is my own list, in no particular order:

Sam Bradford

Aaron Rodgers

Tony Romo

Drew Brees

Phillip Rivers

Ben Roethlisberger

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

As it happens, that's only one guy per division. There are, of course, other guys on the cusp, but all of them have some lingering question marks IMO. If the team I was rooting for had one of these 8 guys, I would be extremely confident and excited about our chances of success every year. I can't say that about any of the others.

Thoughts?

 

[LargeMouthBass]

Remove Bradford and Romo

 

[Jason Wood]

I don't want to compare these guys to each other, only to separate out the guys who are the franchise ones, the elite ones who you believe can lead your team to glory. Here is my own list, in no particular order:Sam BradfordAaron RodgersTony RomoDrew BreesPhillip RiversBen RoethlisbergerTom BradyPeyton ManningAs it happens, that's only one guy per division. There are, of course, other guys on the cusp, but all of them have some lingering question marks IMO. If the team I was rooting for had one of these 8 guys, I would be extremely confident and excited about our chances of success every year. I can't say that about any of the others. Thoughts?

Tim, this is YOUR thread so define what you're asking more for us, because right now you're going to have as many definitions of "franchise" as you will responses. When you say, "Can lead your team to glory" do you mean "Can win a Super Bowl?" or something else?

 

[timschochet]

I don't want to compare these guys to each other, only to separate out the guys who are the franchise ones, the elite ones who you believe can lead your team to glory. Here is my own list, in no particular order:

Sam Bradford

Aaron Rodgers

Tony Romo

Drew Brees

Phillip Rivers

Ben Roethlisberger

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

As it happens, that's only one guy per division. There are, of course, other guys on the cusp, but all of them have some lingering question marks IMO. If the team I was rooting for had one of these 8 guys, I would be extremely confident and excited about our chances of success every year. I can't say that about any of the others.

Thoughts?

Tim, this is YOUR thread so define what you're asking more for us, because right now you're going to have as many definitions of "franchise" as you will responses. When you say, "Can lead your team to glory" do you mean "Can win a Super Bowl?" or something else?

Well, the problem is with that is of course there are tons of factors including luck involved. Let's put it this way: As long as you have one of these guys healthy, your team is relevant, a playoff contender, with a shot at getting to the championship every year.

 

[Doug B]

Going straight from the OP's title, Josh Freeman is pretty clearly a "franchise QB," IMHO. I'd be a lot more surprised if Freeman never hoists a Lombardi than if his teams win two or three.

 

[timschochet]

Remove Bradford and Romo

I realize that Bradford is the most controversial choice, because I'm basing it on what I think he will accomplish starting next year rather than what he has already accomplished (and even that was pretty incredible for a rookie, BTW). Romo I believe is really underappreciated. He has been terrific when healthy.

 

[Wingnut]

Id save a spot for Matt Ryan and Josh Freeman on that list, take Bradford off for now, and I would have never put Romo in there, but thats just my opinion

 

[David Yudkin]

I would probably add Matt Ryan to the list. He's 33-13 as a starter in the regular season (.717), is very young, and seems to be getting better.

 

[CentralPA]

Remove Bradford and Romo

Romo I believe is really underappreciated. He has been terrific when healthy.

I disagree, he shows flashes but he is incredibly inconsistent and he has won only one playoff game so far.

 

[MikeApf]

I don't want to compare these guys to each other, only to separate out the guys who are the franchise ones, the elite ones who you believe can lead your team to glory. Here is my own list, in no particular order:Sam BradfordAaron RodgersTony RomoDrew BreesPhillip RiversBen RoethlisbergerTom BradyPeyton ManningAs it happens, that's only one guy per division. There are, of course, other guys on the cusp, but all of them have some lingering question marks IMO. If the team I was rooting for had one of these 8 guys, I would be extremely confident and excited about our chances of success every year. I can't say that about any of the others. Thoughts?

Remove Romo for sure until he shows something more than what he has. I'm not sure what the rationale would be for including Romo but not someone like Flacco. Both are one tier down from those other guys. As for potential, I think a guy like Josh Freeman has as much if not more potential.Bradford has potential but not sure he's up with the other guys at this point.Also, loaded statement, but you could make a case for Vick as being a player who can take you all the way...

 

[Doug B]

I would probably add Matt Ryan to the list. He's 33-13 as a starter in the regular season (.717), is very young, and seems to be getting better.

I can't tell if Matt Ryan's the kind of guy that lifts an otherwise bad squad or not, though. I know that Atlanta had a bad record before Ryan came along, but that seemed to be more lingering Vick/Petrino fallout than it was an actual lack of talent on the roster. And when Ryan came, so did Michael Turner.

 

[Jason Wood]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

 

[duaneok66]

you have the word "elite" in the subtitle - that word has a more narrow meaning than "franchise" . . .

 

[texasbirdfan]

Define your terms when posting please.

To me "Franchise" means his team is not trying to draft another qb for the near future AND is building the offense around that player. In other words this guy is the franchise' player at quarterback which for you newbies to football is where the term came from many years ago.

All Pro, Hall of Fame worthy, Pro-Bowl seem to be appropriate to what most of you think about the term, IMO

 

[duaneok66]

Remove Bradford and Romo

Romo I believe is really underappreciated. He has been terrific when healthy.

I disagree, Romo has been too inconsistent I think. He only has one playoff win to his credit.

agree . . . Romo is not elite . . .

 

[CentralPA]

Remove Bradford and Romo

Romo I believe is really underappreciated. He has been terrific when healthy.

I disagree, Romo has been too inconsistent I think. He only has one playoff win to his credit.

agree . . . Romo is not elite . . .

Sorry for the double post. The thread didn't update for some reason after I had posted that.

 

[David Yudkin]

I would probably add Matt Ryan to the list. He's 33-13 as a starter in the regular season (.717), is very young, and seems to be getting better.

I can't tell if Matt Ryan's the kind of guy that lifts an otherwise bad squad or not, though. I know that Atlanta had a bad record before Ryan came along, but that seemed to be more lingering Vick/Petrino fallout than it was an actual lack of talent on the roster. And when Ryan came, so did Michael Turner.

I don't know the answer, but I am guessing that you can count the number of QBs that have won 70% of their starts in their first three seasons on a limited number of fingers.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Remove Bradford and Romo

Romo I believe is really underappreciated. He has been terrific when healthy.

I disagree, Romo has been too inconsistent I think. He only has one playoff win to his credit.

agree . . . Romo is not elite . . .

And Aaron Rodgers had zero playoff wins to his credit six weeks ago. And he was elite six weeks ago without them.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Going by past performance and not speculating on what 'might be', I would only have 5 on the list.

Manning

Brady

Rodgers

Brees

Rivers

I know I will get alot of flack for not having Ben on the list, but I don't really think he's elite. I think there are a number of guys in the league that Pittsburgh could win with. Pittsburgh is a great team. If you put a guy like Hasselback or Palmer on that team I think they would do just as well.

 

[Jason Wood]

I can only answer this in one way...which QBs could I grab if I were starting a new franchise and feel like, all other things being equal, I give myself a legitimate shot to win a Super Bowl each and every year.

With that in mind:

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

Drew Brees

Philip Rivers

Aaron Rodgers

Tony Romo

 

[Chase Stuart]

Elite QBs that can carry a team through a tough slate of games: (8) Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Romo, Vick

QBs that can play at a high level often enough to lead you to a title: (6) Manning, Flacco, Freeman, Ryan, Schaub, Cutler

Maybe in tier 1 or 2 next year? (6) Sanchez, Bradford, Stafford, Tebow, Kolb, McCoy

QBs that could win if the rest of the team was stacked: (8) Palmer, Garrard, Cassel, Orton, Young, McNabb, Hasselbeck, Fitzpatrick

Mess: (6) Oakland, San Francisco, Carolina, Minnesota, Arizona, Miami

 

[shader]

Sam Bradford can absolutely not be on this list. Cmon Tim.

Sure things:

Tom Brady

Peyton Manning

Ben Roethlisberger

Phil Rivers

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Eli Manning (gets flack, but his team is always right on the verge of the playoffs every year)

Close:

Tony Romo

Michael Vick

Matt Ryan

Mark Sanchez

Potential:

Sam Bradford

Joe Flacco

 

[timschochet]

I can only answer this in one way...which QBs could I grab if I were starting a new franchise and feel like, all other things being equal, I give myself a legitimate shot to win a Super Bowl each and every year.With that in mind:Tom BradyPeyton ManningDrew BreesPhilip RiversAaron RodgersTony Romo

That's a good way to define it, thanks.But no Big Ben?

 

[flc735]

i have a broader view of what a franchise qb is.

"if player x was my qb, i would not be looking to upgrade the position"

-as general manager of said team

brady, vick, peyton, brees, rodgers, rivers, romo, schuab, freeman, bradford, sanchez, rothy, flacco, ryan, safford, eli and cutler all make my list

 

[Jason Wood]

I can only answer this in one way...which QBs could I grab if I were starting a new franchise and feel like, all other things being equal, I give myself a legitimate shot to win a Super Bowl each and every year.With that in mind:Tom BradyPeyton ManningDrew BreesPhilip RiversAaron RodgersTony Romo

That's a good way to define it, thanks.But no Big Ben?

No, but I expect I'm in the minority there.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I can only answer this in one way...which QBs could I grab if I were starting a new franchise and feel like, all other things being equal, I give myself a legitimate shot to win a Super Bowl each and every year.With that in mind:Tom BradyPeyton ManningDrew BreesPhilip RiversAaron RodgersTony Romo

That's a good way to define it, thanks.But no Big Ben?

No, but I expect I'm in the minority there.

I heard him described as an "elite game manager", ahead of guys like Flacco & Sanchez.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I would probably add Matt Ryan to the list. He's 33-13 as a starter in the regular season (.717), is very young, and seems to be getting better.

I can't tell if Matt Ryan's the kind of guy that lifts an otherwise bad squad or not, though. I know that Atlanta had a bad record before Ryan came along, but that seemed to be more lingering Vick/Petrino fallout than it was an actual lack of talent on the roster. And when Ryan came, so did Michael Turner.

I don't know the answer, but I am guessing that you can count the number of QBs that have won 70% of their starts in their first three seasons on a limited number of fingers.

But you would need 7 hands to count how many QBs in the last 40 years, at age 25, had a better ANY/A than Ryan (adjusted for era): http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...s_per_att_index

 

[David Yudkin]

I think part of the issue in debating this is which matters more, less, or the same, regular or post season?

Romo is 1-3 in the regular season. He's put up decent numbers, but the team hasn't gone very far.

Sanchez has not put up very good numbers, but the team has done better in the post season than in the regular season.

Vick put up monster numbers this year, but that's a very limited sample size (only one year).

Ryan has posted a phenomenal regular season record and has improved his stats across 3 seasons, yet somehow he is not getting a lot of love in this thread.

Eli won a Super Bowl, but both from a regular season record and stat basis has not been able to match some of the other guys.

Big Ben has been to 3 SBs, so in the context of a team being able to win the SB, and I don't see how people can mention Sanchez and ignore Roethlisberger.

 

[smackdaddies]

Elite QBs that can carry a team through a tough slate of games: (8) Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Romo, VickQBs that can play at a high level often enough to lead you to a title: (6) Manning, Flacco, Freeman, Ryan, Schaub, CutlerMaybe in tier 1 or 2 next year? (6) Sanchez, Bradford, Stafford, Tebow, Kolb, McCoyQBs that could win if the rest of the team was stacked: (8) Palmer, Garrard, Cassel, Orton, Young, McNabb, Hasselbeck, FitzpatrickMess: (6) Oakland, San Francisco, Carolina, Minnesota, Arizona, Miami

What he said

 

[David Yudkin]

But you would need 7 hands to count how many QBs in the last 40 years, at age 25, had a better ANY/A than Ryan (adjusted for era): http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...s_per_att_index

This gets us right back to what has been debated the past few weeks. Is being a QB about winning or putting up good stats?In the context of this thread, do you see the Falcons looking to make a change at QB anytime soon?

 

[Doug B]

I don't know the answer, but I am guessing that you can count the number of QBs that have won 70% of their starts in their first three seasons on a limited number of fingers.

Not a fan of attributing wins to QBs, though -- IMHO, wins are first, second, third, and fourth a team stat. That'll be our disconnect. If Ryan were drafted by Detroit or San Francisco, he wouldn't have "won" 70% of his starts.

 

[Jason Wood]

But you would need 7 hands to count how many QBs in the last 40 years, at age 25, had a better ANY/A than Ryan (adjusted for era): http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...s_per_att_index

This gets us right back to what has been debated the past few weeks. Is being a QB about winning or putting up good stats?In the context of this thread, do you see the Falcons looking to make a change at QB anytime soon?

To be an elite or franchise QB, as this thread asks, I think you need BOTH.

 

[David Yudkin]

I don't know the answer, but I am guessing that you can count the number of QBs that have won 70% of their starts in their first three seasons on a limited number of fingers.

Not a fan of attributing wins to QBs, though -- IMHO, wins are first, second, third, and fourth a team stat. That'll be our disconnect. If Ryan were drafted by Detroit or San Francisco, he wouldn't have "won" 70% of his starts.

Put Brady on the Lions and he would likely have 0 SB rings. Put Roethlisberger in the Browns and he probably would not even be brought up in this thread. Leave Steve Young on Tampa Bay and it's doubtful he would be a HOFer. We can only go with the teams that each player is on, not where they could have been.As far as Ryan goes, for QBs through 3 seasons played, he ranks 6th all time in passing yards and 4th all time in passing TD. Is that worth something? Nothing? Would it be at least considering that based on that start he could get better and maybe be a reason why his time will continue to have a high winning percentage?Would the Falcons have won as many times as they have in recent years with David Carr? Joey Harrington? Jamarcus Russell? Brady Quinn? Derek Alexander? It's easy to say he wasn't that big an influence, but people never consider what the alternatives could have been and what impact that may have had.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I think part of the issue in debating this is which matters more, less, or the same, regular or post season?Ryan has posted a phenomenal regular season record and has improved his stats across 3 seasons, yet somehow he is not getting a lot of love in this thread.

Because he hasn't. His sack rate has remained incredibly constant (and impressive), so we can leave it out to make things simpler. He averaged 7.5 adjusted yards per attempt as a rookie, 6.0 in his second year and 6.8 last season. His numbers nosedived after his rookie year, and they have only rebounded a little bit since then. In fact, his raw yards per attempt went from 7.9 to 6.5 and stuck there last season. 6.5 yards per attempt is terrible for a 'stud' QB. Roethlisberger averaged 8.2 Y/A last season and 8.0 for his career.

 

[Doug B]

Other ways to consider this (and tim, my apologies in advance for the hijack):

1) What QBs are worth the most "wins"? Think of like Bill James "win shares" applied to football. For instance, many will attribute Peyton Manning with the ability to lift a 4-12-type team to around 10-12 wins. How about other guys? Do you put Ben Roethlisberger or Matt Ryan on the 2010 Panthers or the 2009 Browns and get a playoff team?

2) What QBs are best at making up for lack of ability on the rest of the roster? Similarly, Peyton Manning has a good rep in this regard. How about other guys? I've privately thought that Tom Brady needed the entirely of the Patriots organization to reach his current level -- what might have happened to Brady's career had he been drafted by Detroit or Buffalo? Used to think similarly about Joe Montana being on the no-offense 1980s Saints teams.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I don't know the answer, but I am guessing that you can count the number of QBs that have won 70% of their starts in their first three seasons on a limited number of fingers.

Not a fan of attributing wins to QBs, though -- IMHO, wins are first, second, third, and fourth a team stat. That'll be our disconnect. If Ryan were drafted by Detroit or San Francisco, he wouldn't have "won" 70% of his starts.

Put Brady on the Lions and he would likely have 0 SB rings. Put Roethlisberger in the Browns and he probably would not even be brought up in this thread. Leave Steve Young on Tampa Bay and it's doubtful he would be a HOFer. We can only go with the teams that each player is on, not where they could have been.As far as Ryan goes, for QBs through 3 seasons played, he ranks 6th all time in passing yards and 4th all time in passing TD. Is that worth something? Nothing? Would it be at least considering that based on that start he could get better and maybe be a reason why his time will continue to have a high winning percentage?Would the Falcons have won as many times as they have in recent years with David Carr? Joey Harrington? Jamarcus Russell? Brady Quinn? Derek Alexander? It's easy to say he wasn't that big an influence, but people never consider what the alternatives could have been and what impact that may have had.

It's useless to compare QB numbers across eras without adjustment. Yes, Ryan is 6th all-time in passing yards through three seasons... and 4th in TD passes. He's also 4th in pass attempts, and the only player who has passed more frequently than Ryan that has fewer yards is Joey Harrington (and Jeff Garcia, Joe Flacco and Dan Marino have more yards on fewer attempts)

 

[Doug B]

Would the Falcons have won as many times as they have in recent years with David Carr? Joey Harrington? Jamarcus Russell? Brady Quinn? Derek Alexander? It's easy to say he wasn't that big an influence, but people never consider what the alternatives could have been and what impact that may have had.

Carr and Quinn are interesting on the 2008-2010 Falcons ... the other three are stiffs That said, Matt Ryan is clearly better than all those guys (not sure the book is closed on Quinn quite yet). I just think that Ryan is sub-elite, while being absolutely well above average.

 

[FUBAR]

Without checking the other comments, my list includes all of yours but also

Josh Freeman

Michael Vick

Matt Ryan

I think Tebow gets there soon.

 

[thejag]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

 

[David Yudkin]

It's useless to compare QB numbers across eras without adjustment. Yes, Ryan is 6th all-time in passing yards through three seasons... and 4th in TD passes. He's also 4th in pass attempts, and the only player who has passed more frequently than Ryan that has fewer yards is Joey Harrington (and Jeff Garcia, Joe Flacco and Dan Marino have more yards on fewer attempts)

I personally do not think Ryan is an elite QB, but the thread title asks which teams have franchise QBs. IMO, ATL is not going to be looking for a QB any time soon and would consider themselves fortune to have Ryan and are happy with their results with him.Here's another conceptual question. If we swapped Eli Manning for Matt Ryan, would the Falcons still have been 13-3 with around 20 more turnovers? Would they have even made the playoffs? Would the Giants have been better than 10-6 with 20 fewer turnovers? Maybe they would have made the playoffs and the SB champs would have had to watch at home instead.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Elite QBs that can carry a team through a tough slate of games: (8) Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Romo, VickQBs that can play at a high level often enough to lead you to a title: (6) Manning, Flacco, Freeman, Ryan, Schaub, CutlerMaybe in tier 1 or 2 next year? (6) Sanchez, Bradford, Stafford, Tebow, Kolb, McCoyQBs that could win if the rest of the team was stacked: (8) Palmer, Garrard, Cassel, Orton, Young, McNabb, Hasselbeck, FitzpatrickMess: (6) Oakland, San Francisco, Carolina, Minnesota, Arizona, Miami

What he said

I'd drop Vick down to tier 2 for now, but agree with the rest of the post.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

True, the defense collectively was the biggest reason they won that day, but Eli did lead the game-winning drive at the end. And leaving Freeman off this original list is glaring.

 

[Jason Wood]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

As an Eagles fan the last thing I want to do is sing Eli Manning's praises, but the kid deserves credit for that playoff run which culminated in a Super Bowl winning drive. And it's a truism to throw out the strength of a defense when talking about a QB in the Super Bowl, most Super Bowl winning QBs happen to be aided by good if not great defenses. Take a look at the defensive rankings through the years (including this year) and you'll see that to be the case. It's why a team can get into the Super Bowl...you need to (usually) be very good on both sides of the ball (if not elite in one and moderate in the other). Manning's playoff run that year was legit:72 of 119 (60.5%) for 854 yards, 6 TDs and only 1 interception.

 

[Jason Wood]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

True, the defense collectively was the biggest reason they won that day, but Eli did lead the game-winning drive at the end. And leaving Freeman off this original list is glaring.

Why would leaving a 2nd year QB who has yet to play a playoff game off this list be a glaring omission?

 

[timschochet]

People keep knocking Romo for the playoff record, but Rivers doesn't have a stellar playoff record, does he? And Peyton Manning's overall playoff record is mediocre. Roethisberger has one of the best ever at 10-3, and in several of those games his play was absolutely key to victory, yet he continues to get called a "game manager."

So much of success in playoffs is due to luck.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

True, the defense collectively was the biggest reason they won that day, but Eli did lead the game-winning drive at the end. And leaving Freeman off this original list is glaring.

Why would leaving a 2nd year QB who has yet to play a playoff game off this list be a glaring omission?

Because he is already a damn good QB, and he has already shown himself to be one of those quarterbacks who seemingly plays his best at the end of games.

 

[Jason Wood]

Not sure how Eli isn't on the list then, since he's actually won a ring, and it was largely due to his play.

Pretty sure that ring was won largely on the play of the defense.

True, the defense collectively was the biggest reason they won that day, but Eli did lead the game-winning drive at the end. And leaving Freeman off this original list is glaring.

Why would leaving a 2nd year QB who has yet to play a playoff game off this list be a glaring omission?

Because he is already a damn good QB, and he has already shown himself to be one of those quarterbacks who seemingly plays his best at the end of games.

He's coming off an extremely compelling 2nd season, that's true. But that's an awfully small sample size to start anointing him as an elite at the position.

 

[David Yudkin]

The other thing that would make me leary at the moment over Freeman is that the Bucs had a cupcake schedule. Other than their Week 17 win against NO (who had nothing to play for), they did not beat a single team with a winning record. It's easy to look good against the sisters of the poor. If Freeman does as well next year, I'd be more inclined to give him my vote then.

 

[spider321]

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Drew Brees

Philip Rivers

Aaron Rodgers

Anyone else is a tier or two below these five qb's.

 

[David Yudkin]

Peyton ManningTom BradyDrew BreesPhilip RiversAaron RodgersAnyone else is a tier or two below these five qb's.

Funny, I listed these as my Top 5 QBs in the NFL in one of the Roethlisberger threads and that sparked an 18 page debate on how Big Ben had to be in there.