Lockheed Martin cuts $ to BSA for anti-gay/atheist rules. (2 Viewers)

[TheIronSheik]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

That's what I thought.

 

[glock]

I was involved for about 3 years in the late 80's from when I was around 9-12 years old. I made it to first class I think.

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

The bigotry is not projected on them, it's practiced by them.

Also, something tells me the boy scouts themselves will do just fine without Lockheed Martin's money. It's not going to collapse the organization. What it will do is pressure the organization to get their moral beliefs updated to this century and be a better model of equality for the children they are leading and forming.

Why did you leave Scouting? Was it the practiced bigotry?

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

The BAGCOA was under investigation in many cities for using funds inappropriately. I'd hate to teach my kids that kind of lesson.

You have my permission to not give them any money.

Perfect. I'll probably need that in writing, though.

As for your point, I agree with you 100%. May want to reread that last sentence so we don't have another meltdown like the last time we agreed on something. They should take their money and donate it wherever they like. No one should tell them what to do with it. My whole point was that it affects the children here. And while that is their choice, I, personally, think they are choosing the wrong battlefield for their war against the BSA's beliefs.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

That's what I thought.

Let me start over.

I do NOT believe the BSA should get a pass on being bigoted and exclusionary because they do some good.

I also hope that they will eventually change their policies.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

That's what I thought.

Let me start over.

I do NOT believe the BSA should get a pass on being bigoted and exclusionary because they do some good.

I also hope that they will eventually change their policies.

Fair enough. I disagree with the word bigoted, though.

 

[mad sweeney]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

That's what I thought.

Let me start over.

I do NOT believe the BSA should get a pass on being bigoted and exclusionary because they do some good.

I also hope that they will eventually change their policies.

Maybe they should think of the kids and change their antiquated, bigoted policies. All the folks arguing that losing sponsorships hurts the kids should look at the folks who are actually doing the damage by driving away sponsors.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

The BAGCOA was under investigation in many cities for using funds inappropriately. I'd hate to teach my kids that kind of lesson.

You have my permission to not give them any money.

Perfect. I'll probably need that in writing, though.

As for your point, I agree with you 100%. May want to reread that last sentence so we don't have another meltdown like the last time we agreed on something. They should take their money and donate it wherever they like. No one should tell them what to do with it. My whole point was that it affects the children here. And while that is their choice, I, personally, think they are choosing the wrong battlefield for their war against the BSA's beliefs.

I'm not the one who had the meltdown. You're the one who keeps using phrases like "on the rag" to describe the incident.

I did one thing. I wondered whether you were disingenuous or just not very bright. I wasn't angry. I was curious. I'm still curious, because I think your point is really facile. Every decision to give money to one charity "hurts" every other charity that could have presumably been chosen. Seriously, no ####.

You haven't provided any evidence that the BSA is uniquely effective at helping children as opposed to the literally thousands of other children's charities that Lockheed Martin could support.

I think you've made a stupid argument on a message board. Generally, when someone makes a stupid argument, I say "hey, that's a stupid argument." It's not a meltdown. Just an observation.

 

[Scoresman]

I was involved for about 3 years in the late 80's from when I was around 9-12 years old. I made it to first class I think.

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

The bigotry is not projected on them, it's practiced by them.

Also, something tells me the boy scouts themselves will do just fine without Lockheed Martin's money. It's not going to collapse the organization. What it will do is pressure the organization to get their moral beliefs updated to this century and be a better model of equality for the children they are leading and forming.

Why did you leave Scouting? Was it the practiced bigotry?

I moved away and in my new town I chose not to join the troop there because as I said previously I enjoyed camping and other outdoor activities more without the boy scouts than with. In hindsight, I'm even more glad I made that choice.

 

[Scoresman]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

That's what I thought.

Let me start over.

I do NOT believe the BSA should get a pass on being bigoted and exclusionary because they do some good.

I also hope that they will eventually change their policies.

Maybe they should think of the kids and change their antiquated, bigoted policies. All the folks arguing that losing sponsorships hurts the kids should look at the folks who are actually doing the damage by driving away sponsors.

The solution here is for BSA to change. They are at fault in this case.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

The BAGCOA was under investigation in many cities for using funds inappropriately. I'd hate to teach my kids that kind of lesson.

You have my permission to not give them any money.

Perfect. I'll probably need that in writing, though.

As for your point, I agree with you 100%. May want to reread that last sentence so we don't have another meltdown like the last time we agreed on something. They should take their money and donate it wherever they like. No one should tell them what to do with it. My whole point was that it affects the children here. And while that is their choice, I, personally, think they are choosing the wrong battlefield for their war against the BSA's beliefs.

I'm not the one who had the meltdown. You're the one who keeps using phrases like "on the rag" to describe the incident.

I did one thing. I wondered whether you were disingenuous or just not very bright. I wasn't angry. I was curious. I'm still curious, because I think your point is really facile. Every decision to give money to one charity "hurts" every other charity that could have presumably been chosen. Seriously, no ####.

You haven't provided any evidence that the BSA is uniquely effective at helping children as opposed to the literally thousands of other children's charities that Lockheed Martin could support.

I think you've made a stupid argument on a message board. Generally, when someone makes a stupid argument, I say "hey, that's a stupid argument." It's not a meltdown. Just an observation.

Yes. You seemed very calm and well spoken over there.

Evidence showing BSA helps effectively? Uh. OK. You got me there, again.

The argument is that these kids are already receiving funding. When you take away funding, you will have negative effects. Sorry, I don't have a link for that. The common sense pages of my Internet aren't loading right now, so I'll have to get back to you with that link.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

 

[Wilfredo Ledezma]

I'll be cutting my funding to Lockheed Martin in response.

cancelling your "Rocket Launcher of themonth" club?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

 

[Scoresman]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

 

[Wilfredo Ledezma]

I had never realized what a valuable and irreplaceable service Scouting provided. Now it seems like even more of a #### move to withhold that opportunity from gays and atheists.

When did the atheists get dragged into this conversation? Not sure I would consider my kids atheist, more undeclared. But, they've had no problem with scouting thus far.

I see where you are going with this, we should just let an institution that tries to teach kids good values fall by the wayside. I would challenge you to find another non sport organization that does this for kids on such a large level. Where are you going to put those 2 million kids?

Reading the Op down?

The reference to "religious affiliation" has to do with the Boy Scouts' ban on atheist members

Lockheed spokesman Johnny Whitaker said that because BSA policies "do not align" with the defense contractor's, Lockheed "will withdraw all official, company-sanctioned support from the Boy Scouts of America, effective January 1, 2014."

 

[glock]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

 

[mad sweeney]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

that's pretty much the textbook definition of bigotry.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

In what language?

If I were to say that a black father could not be a scout leader. Or a Jewish father. Or a Catholic father. Would that be a bigoted policy?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

Please explain the leap I'm making. Are the BSA not bigoted towards gays?

You do realize the BSA now accepts openly gay scouts, right?

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

So preventing a person from being a scout leader because they are gay isn't bigoted? Please explain.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

 

[KCitons]

I had never realized what a valuable and irreplaceable service Scouting provided. Now it seems like even more of a #### move to withhold that opportunity from gays and atheists.

When did the atheists get dragged into this conversation? Not sure I would consider my kids atheist, more undeclared. But, they've had no problem with scouting thus far.

I see where you are going with this, we should just let an institution that tries to teach kids good values fall by the wayside. I would challenge you to find another non sport organization that does this for kids on such a large level. Where are you going to put those 2 million kids?

Reading the Op down?

The reference to "religious affiliation" has to do with the Boy Scouts' ban on atheist members

Lockheed spokesman Johnny Whitaker said that because BSA policies "do not align" with the defense contractor's, Lockheed "will withdraw all official, company-sanctioned support from the Boy Scouts of America, effective January 1, 2014."

Fair enough. As I mentioned, I have seen very little religious content when it comes to Boy Scouts.

I think the difference between BSA allowing gay scouts, but banning gay leaders has to do with the leadership role. It would be no different than a Catholic School not allowing an atheist teacher to work there.

 

[Fennis]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

Teaching kids that it is OK to be exclusionary is counterproductive.

 

[mad sweeney]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

Again, sounds like the people making the policies are the ones punishing the kids.

 

[TheIronSheik]

They allow gay kids in. Not gay leaders. Are you saying they are bigoted towards gay leaders? Because it's hard to be bigoted towards a group you allow in.

I believe a lot of you are throwing around the word to give your argument more weight. And it's actually doing the opposite.

 

[KCitons]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So ultimately, money is what decides right and wrong in our society?

Stop the ride, I want to get off.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So it worked in reverse? That's pretty awesome.

 

[Scoresman]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

And while we make great leaps there you are- treading water on this issue. If you really have something to say, you really should get to the point. It's Friday and there are those special Friday threads popping up...

Treading water on this issue? I'm firmly in the corner of LM and their decision not to support a bigoted organization. Is that treading water?

Right. That organization that you don't have clue about regarding what actually goes down on the ground.

I love your choice of the 'well you don't know what they actually do' card.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

Teaching kids that it is OK to be exclusionary is counterproductive.

Again, I'm not sure that curriculum is taught until they a couple years in.

 

[KCitons]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

Teaching kids that it is OK to be exclusionary is counterproductive.

Again, I'm not sure that curriculum is taught until they a couple years in.

Already said, my kids are 16, and they didn't know anything about the decision.

 

[mad sweeney]

They allow gay kids in. Not gay leaders. Are you saying they are bigoted towards gay leaders? Because it's hard to be bigoted towards a group you allow in.

I believe a lot of you are throwing around the word to give your argument more weight. And it's actually doing the opposite.

If they allowed gay leaders then your argument might be considered a valid point. But they don't, so it isn't.

 

[Scoresman]

Again, I'm not sure that curriculum is taught until they a couple years in.

I guarantee you the child whose father cant become a scout leader because his parents are gay sure knows.

 

[JaxBill]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

It's more than just bonding and doing good in the communities, it's about teaching teenage boys to be self-sufficient and responsible.

Boy Scouts is far different than Cub Scouts where it's expected that the parents are involved in every group outing and/or project.

Recently went on a camping trip where there were 13 Scouts and I was one of 4 adults. Adults camp in one area and each of the patrols camp in their own area. The Boys are responsible for buying their own groceries, planning the menu, cooking, cleaning, setting up their own kitchen, etc.

Scouts can learn a lot of practical skills thru their merit badges like basic electrical, cooking, lifesaving, etc.

Thei Eagle project is usually an involved project that requires a lot of planning by the Scout.

As far as gay involvement, the use of terms like "bigoted" makes it seem like you need to check a box about sexual orientation on your application. The whole subject has never been brought up to either myself or my child.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Again, I'm not sure that curriculum is taught until they a couple years in.

I guarantee you the child whose father cant become a scout leader because his parents are gay sure knows.

That's probably true. But, again, things are changing for the better. It's going to happen.

 

[Scoresman]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

I sort of agree with you here except I'm not as optimistic about them changing anytime soon without fiscal pressure like this. It's their bible that tells them how to perceive gays and its hard to change people's opinions at that level. It'll takes a few generations to weed it out.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

Odds are LM will have a press release in the next little bit saying they are now supporting <insert kids organization here>. So, the parents who still have their kids in BSA may be hurt. Parents who have kids in an organization that doesn't support bigotry will gain. Seems fair to me.

Or LM could not support another organization and you'd have a point.

 

[Fennis]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So it worked in reverse? That's pretty awesome.

LM is not the first organization to stop donating money to BSA. Why do you think BSA decided to allow gay scouts? There was pressure from enough organizations and individuals that they decided they had to.

 

[Fennis]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So ultimately, money is what decides right and wrong in our society?

Stop the ride, I want to get off.

Yes, money is the driver of most changes.

 

[timschochet]

They allow gay kids in. Not gay leaders. Are you saying they are bigoted towards gay leaders? Because it's hard to be bigoted towards a group you allow in.

I believe a lot of you are throwing around the word to give your argument more weight. And it's actually doing the opposite.

Montgomery's bus lines used to allow black people to ride. They just had to go to the back.

 

[TPW]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

I sort of agree with you here except I'm not as optimistic about them changing anytime soon without fiscal pressure like this. It's their bible that tells them how to perceive gays and its hard to change people's opinions at that level. It'll takes a few generations to weed it out.

The founder of my faith died for it as have untold millions more throughout history. Are you willing to do the same for your beliefs?

Progressives who supported Obama have spent the past five years slandering people like me who disagree with them as stupid, racist, sexist, etc. They have spent this time encouraging Democrats to take money out of our pockets to give to special interest groups so they could feel good about themselves. They have happily insulted and belittled every day and in every way the values and ideals we hold dear. In short, Progressives have been pouring acid into the machinery of American society as it existed, machinery that didn't work perfectly to begin with. As a result, the social design margin of the United States has been substantially eroded.

And yet we're still here. Where this will go I do not know, but if Progressives think Christians are going to stand idly by as their faith, families, and fortunes are ripped apart by a bunch of neo-fascists, they are most dangerously mistaken.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.

Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So it worked in reverse? That's pretty awesome.

LM is not the first organization to stop donating money to BSA. Why do you think BSA decided to allow gay scouts? There was pressure from enough organizations and individuals that they decided they had to.

That still doesn't change what I wrote above. I still think it's wrong to do to the kids.

 

[Fennis]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

I sort of agree with you here except I'm not as optimistic about them changing anytime soon without fiscal pressure like this. It's their bible that tells them how to perceive gays and its hard to change people's opinions at that level. It'll takes a few generations to weed it out.

The founder of my faith died for it as have untold millions more throughout history. Are you willing to do the same for your beliefs?

Progressives who supported Obama have spent the past five years slandering people like me who disagree with them as stupid, racist, sexist, etc. They have spent this time encouraging Democrats to take money out of our pockets to give to special interest groups so they could feel good about themselves. They have happily insulted and belittled every day and in every way the values and ideals we hold dear. In short, Progressives have been pouring acid into the machinery of American society as it existed, machinery that didn't work perfectly to begin with. As a result, the social design margin of the United States has been substantially eroded.

And yet we're still here. Where this will go I do not know, but if Progressives think Christians are going to stand idly by as their faith, families, and fortunes are ripped apart by a bunch of neo-fascists, they are most dangerously mistaken.

what are you going do about it?

 

[Scoresman]

Exactly. Iron Shiek, I generally like your posting, but you are 100% off on it not being bigotry.

Fair enough. Again, I'm of the opinion that everyone should allowed to be a scout. And I believe that day is coming sooner rather than later.

We kind of got off on a tangent about the definition of bigoted, but my point remains that pulling funding hurts the children of the scouts more than it hurts the BSA. Progress is being made. Things have changed for the better in the past year. In my view, it would be much better for LM to come out and say, "If the BSA does not continue to make strides to change their ways, we will be forced to pull our funding for them." Give a time frame. A short time frame. If LM really wants to see BSA change (and I assume they like what they do considering they've been supporting them up until now), why not try and help move things along?

I sort of agree with you here except I'm not as optimistic about them changing anytime soon without fiscal pressure like this. It's their bible that tells them how to perceive gays and its hard to change people's opinions at that level. It'll takes a few generations to weed it out.

The founder of my faith died for it as have untold millions more throughout history. Are you willing to do the same for your beliefs?

Progressives who supported Obama have spent the past five years slandering people like me who disagree with them as stupid, racist, sexist, etc. They have spent this time encouraging Democrats to take money out of our pockets to give to special interest groups so they could feel good about themselves. They have happily insulted and belittled every day and in every way the values and ideals we hold dear. In short, Progressives have been pouring acid into the machinery of American society as it existed, machinery that didn't work perfectly to begin with. As a result, the social design margin of the United States has been substantially eroded.

And yet we're still here. Where this will go I do not know, but if Progressives think Christians are going to stand idly by as their faith, families, and fortunes are ripped apart by a bunch of neo-fascists, they are most dangerously mistaken.

I think this is too big to fit in my sig.

 

[Wilfredo Ledezma]

I had never realized what a valuable and irreplaceable service Scouting provided. Now it seems like even more of a #### move to withhold that opportunity from gays and atheists.

When did the atheists get dragged into this conversation? Not sure I would consider my kids atheist, more undeclared. But, they've had no problem with scouting thus far.

I see where you are going with this, we should just let an institution that tries to teach kids good values fall by the wayside. I would challenge you to find another non sport organization that does this for kids on such a large level. Where are you going to put those 2 million kids?

Reading the OP down?

The reference to "religious affiliation" has to do with the Boy Scouts' ban on atheist members

Lockheed spokesman Johnny Whitaker said that because BSA policies "do not align" with the defense contractor's, Lockheed "will withdraw all official, company-sanctioned support from the Boy Scouts of America, effective January 1, 2014."

 

[TheIronSheik]

They allow gay kids in. Not gay leaders. Are you saying they are bigoted towards gay leaders? Because it's hard to be bigoted towards a group you allow in.

I believe a lot of you are throwing around the word to give your argument more weight. And it's actually doing the opposite.

Montgomery's bus lines used to allow black people to ride. They just had to go to the back.

Were black kids allowed to ride wherever they wanted?

That bus line was bigoted. No one is making gay scouts sit at the back of the meetings.

 

[mad sweeney]

Can a gay father be a scout leader?

Probably not. But bigoted means something completely different.

And THIS is where work still needs to be done. Never mind that a whole boatload of the population still thinks that gay men are are pedophiles. Incorrectly so, but one battle at a time.

Agreed. I say this all of the time to people. The world doesn't change in one complete shift. Instead of trying to win the war all at once, win each battle and that will lead to winning the war. It's much easier to chip away than to knock the whole thing down in one swing. And plenty of other odd references.Point is, progress is being made. I think they should allow everyone. And I think that day is coming. But punishing kids to achieve that fight is counterproductive.

One of the reason progress is being made is because organizations like Lockheed Martin stop donating money to BSA.

So it worked in reverse? That's pretty awesome.

LM is not the first organization to stop donating money to BSA. Why do you think BSA decided to allow gay scouts? There was pressure from enough organizations and individuals that they decided they had to.

That still doesn't change what I wrote above. I still think it's wrong to do to the kids.

Then tell BSA to drop their bigoted restrictions. Don't blame the sponsors being driven away, blame the drivers who are pushing away these kids' funding.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I don't think that pissing on the values that TPW holds dear is really a progressive goal. Just kind of a nice fringe benefit.