Lockheed Martin cuts $ to BSA for anti-gay/atheist rules. (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Who cares if LM defrauds the government, at least they aren't helping kids in the community. BTW, the Boy Scouts had just adapted new policies allowing gay scouts in. So let's punish the little brown shirts by taking money away. I always love the people who boo these kids at sporting events because of their political views. Real class.

People do that? That is awful.

So he claims, but I hadn't ever heard of that and when asked earlier he was unable to provide a link. There was a NASCAR event where a boy scout was booed but that was because he left out "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, but not because of political views against the BSA.

I have been to several college basketball games which scouts come out with the flag or something. Always hear a few isolated boos.

 

[CBusAlex]

I had never realized what a valuable and irreplaceable service Scouting provided. Now it seems like even more of a #### move to withhold that opportunity from gays and atheists.

 

[squistion]

Who cares if LM defrauds the government, at least they aren't helping kids in the community. BTW, the Boy Scouts had just adapted new policies allowing gay scouts in. So let's punish the little brown shirts by taking money away. I always love the people who boo these kids at sporting events because of their political views. Real class.

People do that? That is awful.

So he claims, but I hadn't ever heard of that and when asked earlier he was unable to provide a link. There was a NASCAR event where a boy scout was booed but that was because he left out "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, but not because of political views against the BSA.

I have been to several college basketball games which scouts come out with the flag or something. Always hear a few isolated boos.

Yeah sure. Thanks for the link.

 

[Scoresman]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

They don't need to associate themselves to an association that supports bigotry to do this.

Society at large supports bigotry. Were you actually involved in Scouting you would find that it actually sets the bar pretty high when it comes to treating your fellow humans.

I was involved with scouting. Read a few replies up. My memories of it are mixed. I could've bonded just fine.doing the same activities outside of the organization. Camping trips with friends and family outside of the boy scouts were always a better experience. The boy scouts had you write essays while camping for crying out loud.

And to say that the organization sets the bar high when it comes to treating fellow humans does not compute with their stance on gays.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

They can, but scouting still offers a unique opportunity for over a million kids to bond. Not all kids are into sports.

So sports or boyscouts are the only way fathers and sons can bond?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

That's exactly what I was comparing. I see why you're a teacher now.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What is it that they offer?

Nope. Not gonna dance with you, Officer...

From what I see most of the kids that participate in scouting come from backgrounds where they're still going to be successful without scouting. In my area it is a very suburban/middle class, very church oriented group of people.

 

[glock]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

They can, but scouting still offers a unique opportunity for over a million kids to bond. Not all kids are into sports.

So sports or boyscouts are the only way fathers and sons can bond?

Clif- you really aren't bringing anything to the table here, are you?? He said it was unique.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

That's exactly what I was comparing. I see why you're a teacher now.

You have to admit that this isn't a very good analogy.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

When there are hundreds of other Cancer Research programs that they can give their money to, what is the problem with them not supporting the one which promotes bigotry?

First off, they can do whatever they want with their money. That's their choice. But almost 2 million children belong to BSA and they are the ones that will be affected by this decision. I think they're picking the wrong battlefront on this decision.

So continue to support bigotry for the children?

 

[KCitons]

I had never realized what a valuable and irreplaceable service Scouting provided. Now it seems like even more of a #### move to withhold that opportunity from gays and atheists.

When did the atheists get dragged into this conversation? Not sure I would consider my kids atheist, more undeclared. But, they've had no problem with scouting thus far.

I see where you are going with this, we should just let an institution that tries to teach kids good values fall by the wayside. I would challenge you to find another non sport organization that does this for kids on such a large level. Where are you going to put those 2 million kids?

 

[jon_mx]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

 

[glock]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

They don't need to associate themselves to an association that supports bigotry to do this.

Society at large supports bigotry. Were you actually involved in Scouting you would find that it actually sets the bar pretty high when it comes to treating your fellow humans.

I was involved with scouting. Read a few replies up. My memories of it are mixed. I could've bonded just fine.doing the same activities outside of the organization. Camping trips with friends and family outside of the boy scouts were always a better experience. The boy scouts had you write essays while camping for crying out loud.

And to say that the organization sets the bar high when it comes to treating fellow humans does not compute with their stance on gays.

Curious- just how long and at what age were you involved with scouting?

 

[KCitons]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

When there are hundreds of other Cancer Research programs that they can give their money to, what is the problem with them not supporting the one which promotes bigotry?

First off, they can do whatever they want with their money. That's their choice. But almost 2 million children belong to BSA and they are the ones that will be affected by this decision. I think they're picking the wrong battlefront on this decision.

So continue to support bigotry for the children?

If you are going to use that argument, then the world as you see it is screwed. Do I think everyone should turn their backs on the BSA? No. Does there need to be pressure put on them to rethink their views? Yes. But it needs to be done in a manner that doesn't effect the kids. You're punishing them for a decision they didn't get to make.

I can find fault with every organization. If you're looking for perfection, you won't find it.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

That's exactly what I was comparing. I see why you're a teacher now.

You have to admit that this isn't a very good analogy.

I didn't realize we were being graded on our analogies. I would have put more thought into it than 3 seconds. This board has gotten tough on the grading since I was gone.

 

[glock]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What is it that they offer?

Nope. Not gonna dance with you, Officer...

From what I see most of the kids that participate in scouting come from backgrounds where they're still going to be successful without scouting. In my area it is a very suburban/middle class, very church oriented group of people.

Who said anything about being successful?

Damn. Got me...

 

[TheIronSheik]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

When there are hundreds of other Cancer Research programs that they can give their money to, what is the problem with them not supporting the one which promotes bigotry?

First off, they can do whatever they want with their money. That's their choice. But almost 2 million children belong to BSA and they are the ones that will be affected by this decision. I think they're picking the wrong battlefront on this decision.

So continue to support bigotry for the children?

Maybe if we could get them to stop teaching the "Hate All the Gays" classes and "Convert the Atheists" workshops, would you support it then?

 

[glock]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

Just looking to establish just how much you actually know about Scouting. You, know- outside of how they and their leaders wear funny uniforms and what not.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

Just looking to establish just how much you actually know about Scouting. You, know- outside of how they and their leaders wear funny uniforms and what not.

He seems to know a lot about the all of the bigotry classes they teach.

 

[jonessed]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

 

[glock]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

Just looking to establish just how much you actually know about Scouting. You, know- outside of how they and their leaders wear funny uniforms and what not.

He seems to know a lot about the all of the bigotry classes they teach.

Seriously. I take a number of courses annually just to keep on top of that stuff.

 

[timschochet]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Seriously. I take a number of courses annually just to keep on top of that stuff.

If not for the Scouts, most of us wouldn't even know who to hate. Luckily they make sure to let all the boys know that gays are the devil. That was my first badge I got.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

:l

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

Fathers and sons can't bond without the boyscouts?

Of course they can, Cliff. Ever involved in Scouting?

Relevance?

Just looking to establish just how much you actually know about Scouting. You, know- outside of how they and their leaders wear funny uniforms and what not.

He seems to know a lot about the all of the bigotry classes they teach.

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

 

[timschochet]

As an atheist parent, I'm actually less concerned about the exclusion of atheists than I am for gay children. If your children are going to be open atheists, then an organization rooted in the belief of God's existence should have no obligation to accept you. IMO, that's not discrimination.

 

[glock]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

You do realize how many kids got the rugged pulled out from under them in the name of looking to spur further progress, right?

 

[timschochet]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

You do realize how many kids got the rugged pulled out from under them in the name of looking to spur further progress, right?

No. What exactly are you referring to?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

 

[mad sweeney]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

"perceived"

 

[glock]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

And while we make great leaps there you are- treading water on this issue. If you really have something to say, you really should get to the point. It's Friday and there are those special Friday threads popping up...

 

[timschochet]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

That's jon's argument, not mine.

 

[glock]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

You do realize how many kids got the rugged pulled out from under them in the name of looking to spur further progress, right?

No. What exactly are you referring to?

The yanking of sponsorships and gobs of funding that they had been giving Scouting up to now.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

And while we make great leaps there you are- treading water on this issue. If you really have something to say, you really should get to the point. It's Friday and there are those special Friday threads popping up...

Treading water on this issue? I'm firmly in the corner of LM and their decision not to support a bigoted organization. Is that treading water?

 

[Steve Tasker]

If you are going to use that argument, then the world as you see it is screwed. Do I think everyone should turn their backs on the BSA? No. Does there need to be pressure put on them to rethink their views? Yes. But it needs to be done in a manner that doesn't effect the kids. You're punishing them for a decision they didn't get to make.

I can find fault with every organization. If you're looking for perfection, you won't find it.

How exactly would outsiders put "pressure" on BSA to rethink their views? People can complain all they want, but unless the funding begins to dry up, where's BSA's incentive to change their views?

The whole "don't take it out on the kids" argument seems kinda screwy to me. I get that there are a lot of people who enjoy scouting, my little brother was a scout for a number of years, but on the surface it looks like you're saying to keep giving money to the organization and cross your fingers and hope that they change. Why would they change if you're still giving them the money anyway?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

As are you.

 

[glock]

Link to where I said they teach classes on bigotry? You're making some great leaps here.

And while we make great leaps there you are- treading water on this issue. If you really have something to say, you really should get to the point. It's Friday and there are those special Friday threads popping up...

Treading water on this issue? I'm firmly in the corner of LM and their decision not to support a bigoted organization. Is that treading water?

Right. That organization that you don't have clue about regarding what actually goes down on the ground.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

 

[glock]

If you are going to use that argument, then the world as you see it is screwed. Do I think everyone should turn their backs on the BSA? No. Does there need to be pressure put on them to rethink their views? Yes. But it needs to be done in a manner that doesn't effect the kids. You're punishing them for a decision they didn't get to make.

I can find fault with every organization. If you're looking for perfection, you won't find it.

How exactly would outsiders put "pressure" on BSA to rethink their views? People can complain all they want, but unless the funding begins to dry up, where's BSA's incentive to change their views?

The whole "don't take it out on the kids" argument seems kinda screwy to me. I get that there are a lot of people who enjoy scouting, my little brother was a scout for a number of years, but on the surface it looks like you're saying to keep giving money to the organization and cross your fingers and hope that they change. Why would they change if you're still giving them the money anyway?

You do realize that the "them" of which you speak are the kids, right?

 

[KCitons]

If you are going to use that argument, then the world as you see it is screwed. Do I think everyone should turn their backs on the BSA? No. Does there need to be pressure put on them to rethink their views? Yes. But it needs to be done in a manner that doesn't effect the kids. You're punishing them for a decision they didn't get to make.

I can find fault with every organization. If you're looking for perfection, you won't find it.

How exactly would outsiders put "pressure" on BSA to rethink their views? People can complain all they want, but unless the funding begins to dry up, where's BSA's incentive to change their views?

The whole "don't take it out on the kids" argument seems kinda screwy to me. I get that there are a lot of people who enjoy scouting, my little brother was a scout for a number of years, but on the surface it looks like you're saying to keep giving money to the organization and cross your fingers and hope that they change. Why would they change if you're still giving them the money anyway?

If you reread my posting in this thread, it was in regards to someone Not buying a Christmas tree from Boy Scouts. That is money that effects the specific troop or scout. My kids have sold popcorn in the past, this is one way they can raise money to pay for their yearly camps.

If the money that LM donates is being given to the people in charge at BSA, then it may well be an effective method to provoke change.

I get the feeling that some posters here don't care about the negative effects it would have on the kids, they just want to burn the BSA to the ground.

 

[timschochet]

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

I believe this is true. And beyond the bonding, you're not mentioning the good works that the BSA does for communities, especially among the underprivileged.

Nonetheless, the bigotry is not "perceived"; it's real. It needs to be eliminated. The BSA took an important first step last year and they deserve to be lauded for that. But's it's not enough. Hopefully actions like the one that Lockheed took will result in further progress.

You do realize how many kids got the rugged pulled out from under them in the name of looking to spur further progress, right?

No. What exactly are you referring to?

The yanking of sponsorships and gobs of funding that they had been giving Scouting up to now.

Ah. OK, now I understand you. That's unfortunate. Yet I approve of what Lockheed is doing.

The Civil Rights Movement achieved far more through economic boycott than they ever did through government legislation. As a fiscal conservative, I believe strongly that private economic decisions, rather than government action, are the way to achieve social change. Lockheed's action is a great example of this. I think it will work. And when it does, the BSA will hopefully be stronger than ever before, with even more opportunities offered.

 

[timschochet]

I get the feeling that some posters here don't care about the negative effects it would have on the kids, they just want to burn the BSA to the ground.

I think this is true as well. And it's pretty sad.

 

[Scoresman]

Seems that the BSA needs to get out of the middle lane. Either they align themselves with the religious right or with the pro glbt groups. They are getting run over by both sides driving down the middle of the road

Given what the BSA does offer, both sides need to relax the rhetoric a little. They need to recognize that there are way too many positive values stressed in Scouting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I agree totally. It's like cutting funding to Cancer Research because it turns out the clinic doesn't allow gays to be researchers.

You're equating trying to find a cure for cancer with a bunch of Mormon kids making birdhouses and lanyards?

It offers a great opportunity for fathers and sons to bond and do something together. I would argue that is as important as anything in life.

They don't need to associate themselves to an association that supports bigotry to do this.

Society at large supports bigotry. Were you actually involved in Scouting you would find that it actually sets the bar pretty high when it comes to treating your fellow humans.

I was involved with scouting. Read a few replies up. My memories of it are mixed. I could've bonded just fine.doing the same activities outside of the organization. Camping trips with friends and family outside of the boy scouts were always a better experience. The boy scouts had you write essays while camping for crying out loud.

And to say that the organization sets the bar high when it comes to treating fellow humans does not compute with their stance on gays.

Curious- just how long and at what age were you involved with scouting?

I was involved for about 3 years in the late 80's from when I was around 9-12 years old. I made it to first class I think.

Of course there are other ways for father and sons to bond. But for many kids scouting is one of the main vessels used and it provides 1000 times more good than any perceived bigotry that is being projected onto the organization.

The bigotry is not projected on them, it's practiced by them.

Also, something tells me the boy scouts themselves will do just fine without Lockheed Martin's money. It's not going to collapse the organization. What it will do is pressure the organization to get their moral beliefs updated to this century and be a better model of equality for the children they are leading and forming.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

 

[Flying V]

Who cares if LM defrauds the government, at least they aren't helping kids in the community. BTW, the Boy Scouts had just adapted new policies allowing gay scouts in. So let's punish the little brown shirts by taking money away. I always love the people who boo these kids at sporting events because of their political views. Real class.

People do that? That is awful.

I thought they were booing those hideous uniforms.

They should have at least let a gay guy design those for them.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

The BAGCOA was under investigation in many cities for using funds inappropriately. I'd hate to teach my kids that kind of lesson.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Well as long as the BSA does some good I guess we should give them a pass on being exclusionary.

Waiting for the list of organizations that do all good.

How about a list of organizations that do not discriminate against gays and atheists but people think are OK because they teach middle-class white kids how to tell the difference between raccoon tracks and lichens.

No. Your point was that they weren't all good. I'm waiting on that list.

wat

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think it's safe to assume that Lockheed will find another charitable recipient for the funds. So let's assume that Lockheed decides to give to the Boys and Girls Clubs or America. I don't think it's crazy for progressives to applaud a company for considering the entirety of a charitable organization's record when deciding whether to contribute. I have no doubt that Catholic Charities does lots of great work. But I also have the option to give my money to organizations doing equally good work that don't care whether their employees use birth control.

This also doesn't mean that progressives are giving Lockheed a pass for any other past misdeeds (although I think you'd have to look pretty far to the left of even the progressive mainstream to find someone who thinks that military contractors are per se evil).

The BAGCOA was under investigation in many cities for using funds inappropriately. I'd hate to teach my kids that kind of lesson.

You have my permission to not give them any money.